Loss of pride in my home - Loss of so much that was important to me - family, pets - Feeling like the whole burden is on me and "dancing as fast as I can" just to get less than the minimum done - Feeling like my voice isn't heard and doesn't matter - No longer having my own relationship with my own children - S requires to be involved in gifts, cards etc - No time for me or my own interests - Poorer health and worse diet - Lack of exercise - Money issues - it was expected that there would be no negative financial impact - Feeling that this is a very "dark" environment. Dirt clutter and actual darkness - S doesn't like bright sunshine - The lack of reciprocity - what "does" S bring to the relationship? - Little overlap of time together and loss of most of the day with her being asleep while the world is shining and spinning out there - Living with a hoarder is hard - Dirt, stink, no ownership / being accountable for dealing with stuff - passed on to D26 or boys and picked up by me - Dramatic decrease in living conditions - Feeling taken for granted in many ways. A good example is when suddenly her entire family started coming every Sunday for me to make them dinner - a tradition they never had.
Good list, but let’s refine it down to the essentials for therapy- facts first:
1) X months now and the house is still a hoarders mess. You expected it to be a job to go through her things but did not expect she would spend so little time on it, be so ineffective at it, and have so much difficulty letting things go. You now recognize now that she is a hoarder and you are not willing to live in that mess.
2) You had been led to expect that she was going to start her business and be an equal partner but you now realize that given her history and her present actions she is not likely to ever pull her own weight in terms of working.
3) She sleeps most of the day and spends most of her time watching tv so you get little in the way of companionship out of the relationship.
4) The house is unclean - dirty dishes left overnight, food left out overnight, finding dog poop on the floors because the dog isn’t being let out to do it’s business regularly.
5) She doesn’t stick to the budget
Then how it affects you:
6) Depresses you to live in a dirty house
7) Deprives you of leisure time because you are cleaning up after everyone else
8) Causes you financial worry because this is turning into a much bigger financial deficit than you expected
Then your role in things:
9) Feel you don’t speak up enough directly about your own needs and wants
10) Feel you let her pressure you into moving in before you were ready
11) Own you can be passive-aggressive in your responses as a result.
Oh -and bring pictures of what you’re talking about. Hoarders can present as very normal to the outside world, this therapist may have NO IDEA and may have bought her stories about her clean freak ex and dad just as you did. Don’t forget to mention the unused items with price tags still on as that’s a classic hoarder/shopaholic thing.
As for celiac versus gluten sensitive - anyone who gets sick from beer on your breath is either true gluten allergy or celiac. And the $23 trout lunch? Sure, it can be tough to find gluten free things on a menu, but there’s always a burger without the bun or a salad. Sounds like she’s treating herself to some luxuries while she’s got you on the hook.
Andrew... You are such a nice man but honestly... how can you write that list and STILL think there is something worth salvaging here? She is who she is... and who she is is completely incompatible with who you are. The story about her turning your $3 scone into a $175 shopping trip... WTF??? If I was basically living on someone else’s dime, I would NEVER do that...especially in the entitled way that she did. That you would put up with it is CRAZY to me. When I read your list, I only got past #2 and I thought... that would have been enough for me. Relationships are supposed to ADD something to your life... a warm body is not enough.
I don’t feel sorry for S at all and I don’t think you should either. She will land on her feet. I am pretty sure she will find a new guy pretty quickly after you. She Is looking for someone to finance her habits and take care of her responsibilities (you are doing both of these things) and it is only when she thinks you are looking towards the door that she puts ANY effort in at all...and even then, it is not much effort. I do, however, feel sorry for her kids because I think you have been a positive influence on them and maybe, just maybe, they have seen glimpses of another way they could live. BTW...I’ve worked with hoarders before...it is a disorder that is VERY hard to treat and for the hoarder to overcome. It has deep roots and the threat of losing a relationship is rarely, if ever, a good enough reason for them to change their ways. Sorry. I wish I could tell you something different. It is the reality. (((HUGS)))
Kml gave you some good advice. The only thing I would stress is to keep the focus on you, your needs, what they are, what she says and does when you try to articulate them, how that makes you feel, etc.
Frankly, Andrew, I'd just walk in and say, well, now that we're in a safe place, S, I want you and your stuff out by x date. But that's me.
One should never have to give up family for a relationship. If that's expected, then there is something very, very off about that relationship, IMHO. Forget all the rest. That for me is a non-negotiable. Not merely siblings, but children. No. My son is first, foremost and anyone who doesn't like it doesn't have a place in my life.
Really, what I have personally learned from following along on this journey of yours is that I am better off alone than with the wrong one.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
I really do like the way what kml has posted, as well as bttrfly. I, too, realize that I am far better off being alone than w/the wrong person. I couldn't even begin to think of trying to make this work after 4.5 months.
Do not soft shoe your concerns. You need to state why you are unhappy and what is to be done about it. If she can't meet you at least half way between now and Christmas, then the new year would surely start out w/a bang and she would be given notice to move out.
Again, I do not see her changing. Leopards do not change their spots and this leopard is enjoying spending your money, having a roof over her head and just enjoying the life of luxury. This is not something new, this has been an ongoing trend w/her throughout her relationships and that's why she and the kids finally ended up in a crammed apartment.
Own your side of the street, but do not take up maintaining her side of the street any longer. You've been too kind and considerate of all and it's time for her to pull up her big girl panties and get cracking and getting stuff done. It doesn't make any sense that someone would leave food out and dirty dishes all over the place. That's an invitation to roaches, bugs and rodents.
Try to enjoy the rest of your weekend. BTW, your list looks good, but do add in kml's comments.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Frankly, Andrew, I'd just walk in and say, well, now that we're in a safe place, S, I want you and your stuff out by x date. But that's me.
Definitely another valid approach. Or a combination of the two, like an exit interview at a job:
“S, I didn’t realize when I took you on that you are a hoarder with a shopping addiction, irresponsible with money and unlikely to earn a real income. I’m sorry but these are simply not the conditions that I want to live my life in. I think it’s best that you move out and you have until X date to do so. “
I know that sounds harsh but I agree with Deja - hoarders are notoriously resistant to treatment and it’s unlikely that her multiple issues - hoarding, shopaholic, uncleanliness, lack of truthfulness, lack of responsibility, lack of respect for your home and your time, are not likely ever going to really change. She might make a temporary attempt but she won’t be able to maintain it because she is so broken. This is not going to get any easier to do as time goes on. The idea of having her therapist there when you do this is a good idea.
Also - heads up - there are good therapists and bad ones. S may be with this therapist precisely because she doesn’t challenge S’s world view - I doubt S would stick with someone who really challenged her to do the work.
Btw I’m curious, that van full of stuff that she took to donate - did it come back empty? Did she dump it on her daughter? Or did she get rid of it but bring back other “finds” from the thrift store?
If she can do a cross-stitch and leave it on your desk, then what the heck is wrong with her that she can't clean up and put the left over food away and do some dishes or even clean up? S has selective memory and is selective in what she wants to do and from what you've posted...it's not cleaning.
Gosh, what I see is that she is sitting on the dock of the lake. She senses that you are pulling away and swimming further and further away from her. She knows that the only way that she can reel you back in is to throw some bait your way. She's good at this manipulation game and if you think about it...every time you distance yourself and tell her things, she either throws a hissy, turns it around and makes you feel like it's you or then she comes back w/"things will get better". The pathway to heaven is paved w/good intentions. Her actions do not match her words.
As I have said twice now, she either needs to "sh*t or get off the pot". She can't stay on that pot forever and think that you are going to continue to cater to her, her clan and all of those animals. Winter is coming and you sure won't be able to air the house out like you can right now.
Andrew, there is no shame in admitting that this isn't working and advising her that she needs to go. I do agree w/kml, that she may very well not be challenged by this therapist. She's not going to stick w/anyone that would challenge her.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Picking up on what both kml and job said, I agree about her therapist. Did I understand in your post correctly that this therapist is a friend of hers or in the same social circle? Or did I misunderstand/misread that? If I got it right, that screams huge red flag to me.
Your list is good, Andrew, but you’re still going to have to be firm. Personally, I would take butterfly’s approach and go in with a goodbye speech and a hard move out deadline.
You said it yourself, Andrew: you’ve lost your relationship with your siblings and your children. Is the “warmth” S provides along with all the chaos worth those losses?
Me 52, H53 Bomb drop 9/29/2014 Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014 Marriage #2 12/31/2019 5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships) 6 grandkids
As for celiac versus gluten sensitive - anyone who gets sick from beer on your breath is either true gluten allergy or celiac.
Or making it up - or at least exaggerating things greatly.
As I look at all of this, I’m not sure our focus is correct or helpful anymore. It certainly was until Andrew admitted the truth of the situation. It’s clear all of the things being presented about S are at least somewhat accurate. Take the hoarding. She’s unlikely to see it, it’s very difficult to change and no one can fix it for her. Sadly I think much with Andrew is the same. We keep pointing out or at least reinforcing why this R should have ended months ago and for sure should end sooner than later. Andrew I think agrees. That’s not the problem. The problem as I see it is much like S - getting Andrew to change and do something about it. Just as Andrew sees the huge issues with S but can’t get her to do anything or change it, Andrew sees the huge issues but doesn’t know how to get out of it or is afraid to call it quits. That’s where the huge roadblock here is. From where I sit Andrew does not need to see S’s therapist with S to try to fix this, he needs to see his own T to figure out why he’d even let this happen in the first place and why he can’t seem to end it even after seeing very clearly for what it is. That’s where I see the help being needed. We can keep bringing up all of the items and issues but until Andrew is willing to do something about them, nothing is going to change.
I hate to be harsh but let’s just be honest here. Andrew expecting S to change is nearly the same as us expecting Andrew to change. Without some solid help and support I don’t see it happening. It’s very sad and a bit surreal to witness. A good C can give you the support and the tools you need to end this Andrew. That’s where I think the focus needs to go. Again, sadly, just like the hoarding can sometimes be stopped and the house cleaned, the next challenge is to keep it from happening all over again. Andrew, until you take it on yourself to say, I’m making some really bad choices here and allowing people to treat me far worse than I’d ever dream of treating them and I need to stop and change that, none of this is going to change. For the rest of us, we can keep pointing all of this with S out but I think it would be far more helpful to suggest how Andrew can find it within himself to change.
Sorry to talk about you in your own thread like your not here but it just seems crystal clear everyone sees this for what it is. Not what will be done about it?
DonH Midwest Me 56 WAW-EXW 55 Met 11/95 / Married 5/00 Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06 4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
