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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2905581#Post2905581


Originally Posted by Valeska19
I always found that DBing can be about loving your wife or it can be used as a manipulation tool... the motive is based on the individual. Everything has two sides of the coin - it's about which side of the coin you want to play. Let's assume love and go from there.

It is loving to your wife and you to help with the chores REGARDLESS of what it leads to. Period. Not up for discussion
It is loving to your wife and you to say "no" at times in order to eliminate resentment in your heart.
It is loving to your wife and you to set a boundary if your wife is speaking to you in a way that is hurtful (blaming, criticizing, etc)
It is loving for your wife and you to self care... both of you. If she doesn't support your self care - it is still your responsibility to do it. (Ie: GALing)

Yes it is okay for do some acts of service. No it is not okay to do them if you are going to resent her later. No it is not okay to do them if it enabling a toxic behavior.



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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2905646#Post2905646
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What exactly would be considered Alpha behavior that you would suggest incorporating?
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
It definitely will help you understand alpha versus beta behavior. Alpha doesn't mean being a pushy jerk, it just means being confident and assertive. A lot of LBS's attracted their spouse in the first place because of their alpha characteristics. Strong, confident, independent. They might be interested in multiple women and she has to compete to win him over.

Then they go through the dating process and get married and become responsible fathers and husbands and often lose touch with their alpha side and become very beta. That is not a bad thing, but it's not what women are particularly attracted to. Obviously you don't want to abandon all your responsibilities, so you don't want to be alpha at the expense of your beta duties. You have to find a balance. My girlfriend once told me she just about lost it once when she saw me ironing my work shirt. She said it was one of the sexiest things she had ever seen. I asked her why, and she said because most men think that's a woman's "job", so to see a man confident and independent enough to do it himself was appealing. I would never have thought a woman would ever see ironing as sexy, but the point is if you strike the right balance then everything about you is appealing.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2905646#Post2905646

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
She won't believe your changes at first so stick with them and make them permanent. A woman that used to post here a lot had a saying that went something like "180's + time = changes she can believe in". Most people do 180's for a week or two expecting to see a reaction, and when they don't get it they give up and go back to their old ways. TIME is a critical factor.


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You want to be a bit mysterious. Don't offer up info on what you've been doing (or not doing). Be brief. Be the first to hang up when she calls. Don't always answer right away when she calls. Don't always respond right away when she texts. Right now she sees you as low value and undesirable. You need to do things to change that. Dress nicer. Keep your hair styled. Wear cologne. Get out and be with people. Get back in touch with old friends. Meet new ones. Start a new hobby. Get fit if you're not already. Get a tan. I'm not saying to start dating or even to act like you're dating, the idea isn't to make her jealous, it's to make her wonder what you're up to. She needs to learn to miss you.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2906193#Post2906193

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
One thing I've seen you mention several times is the need for closure and the need to know "why". As Vapo replied, you'll never know "why", because more than likely your W doesn't even know why. Oh sure maybe you weren't as loving as you were earlier in the M, and didn't communicate as well as you could have, but the same could no doubt be said for your W and pretty much every other person in a long term marriage or relationship. And I would wager that like my XW, your W would have done ANYTHING earlier in the M to save it NO MATTER WHAT PROBLEMS CAME UP. Right? So what happened to her that she went from wanting the M at all costs to not even wanting to lift her pinky off the table to try anymore? I don't know. You don't know. She doesn't know. Something is happening to her internally, there is some kind of struggle going on and she doesn't know where it originated or why. But she's no longer in love and she no longer wants to be married. THOSE things she does know.

And it was the same for my XW. Unlike you and your W, we did go to therapy. We had discussions, and months after BD we even went to Retrouvaille which was her idea. So we had a lot of dialog. Whenever asked why she didn't want to be married, her response was without exception "I don't know." I'll give you a specific example, the therapist asked her if I was a selfish person and she replied "no, he's a very warm and giving person." She asked her if she respected me and she replied "absolutely." Asked her if I was an uncaring father and she said "not at all, he's an amazing father." Then she said "what about sex, does he not meet your needs?" Her reply shocked me since we had not had sex since BD, but she said "oh I really enjoy the sex and wouldn't mind continuing to have sex even now." The therapist said "I'm confused, you say you trust and respect him, he's an excellent father and the sex is great, we call those the three pillars of a healthy relationship. So why is it you don't want to be married?" "I don't know, I just don't want to try."

And in the almost 10 years since BD, that is as close as I've ever gotten to an explanation of "why".

So you will get closure, but your closure won't be in knowing why, it will be in letting go of the need to know why. Sometimes things happen without reason.

She's not guilty of an offense, she just doesn't know. There's nothing to verbalize. And she knows telling you "I don't know" is just going to make you frustrated and possibly angry, and so she'd rather just not talk. Plus the separation is her way of letting go, and she's probably afraid that if she sees you she might second guess her decision. This decision she made was a very difficult one and she is wracked with guilt over hurting you, the kids, your family and friends. She hates herself for it. She probably cries a lot even though she may appear cold and indifferent. But she still feels like she must do this to survive. My XW told me all of these things, but not until long after BD.



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I hope it's okay if I add a quote, too!

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2906330&page=3

Originally Posted by Steve_
I just talked to a friend of mine a nurse practioner with 30 years as a therapist and a psychologist (PHD) I told him the situation and he was like, "why would you even want her back? she will just do it again, if you do the same thing she will also do the same thing, that's why I don't do therapy anymore, you spend years on someone and only around 10% of people change"

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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2905925#Post2905925

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
It sounds like she's going through something, and unfortunately when this happens the spouse usually becomes the lightning rod for everything that the WAS perceives as wrong in their life. The best thing you can do is detach, leave her be, remove yourself from the equation. She's got to sort this out and it's going to take quite some time, and the loss of the M may very well be part of the fallout of that journey she goes on. There could still be a future R and M, but that's way down the road. For now accept that she's already gone and DB your heart out.



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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2906204#Post2906204

Originally Posted by LH19


The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your children, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point. Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful. If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more. If you pursue her, argue with her, or try to convince her to work with you on the marriage, she's going to resent you for not letting her go and not giving her the space she wants.

If you give her space, it’s going to make her less resentful. If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, it’s going to make her less resentful. If you are respectful in your communications with her, but not intimate, it’s going to make her less resentful.

Eventually she will burn through that big pile of resentment. Eventually she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate. UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training.

If she thinks you wear blue every day, and you start wearing red, she's still going to think of you as the guy that wears blue, because she literally can't see you right now.

WHILE she is processing her anger and resentment, YOU work on your changes. You do it slowly and methodically for you. If you're a 2 today, you don't focus on being a 10, you focus on being a 3. Then you focus on being a 4. You be kind to yourself.

While her anger and resentment are burning down, your changes are building up. When eventually she's had enough time and space that she can SEE YOU again, she'll be surprised by what she sees, and she'll question for the first time the assumptions she has held about you. THAT is the beginning of your opportunity to turn things around, but you CANNOT control how long it will take her to process her anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.

Buckle your seatbelt, it’s a marathon and you have to be patient and surrender to the fact that this relationship is NOT something you can control right now. That's an uncomfortable feeling, but the sooner you own that fact, the better you'll do.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2906805#Post2906805


Originally Posted by Steve85
Decided to us my own thread to get a point across to LBSs that are struggling with detachment.

As many of you know, I am a huge proponent of healthy, loving detachment. It is probably one of the biggest struggles that LBSs have, learning to be detached, and that is too bad because it can have a profound effect on your sitch. And even if it doesn't, it certainly has a profound impact on the LBS!!

First, LBSs have to understand what detachment is. I've seen so many LBSs that think it means ignoring, being cold, being angry or unkind, etc. And true detachment is none of those things! I like to describe detachment as a state of being where you know your own worth, you own your own happiness, and because of those two rocks, you can remain emotionally even through anything.

I also like to have LBS google "self-differentiation" or "self-differentiation in marriage". Because detachment isn't something you do for a short period of time, it is really a healthy place to always be. I like to tell LBSs that if they ever want a healthy relationship in the future they first have to learn to be happy by themselves. Two people overly reliant on each other for their mental well-being is a disaster waiting to happen. Two fully individual people who are happy and healthy themselves first, can come together to make a long lasting relationship that will stand the test of time.

So how does it work:

Well if you go back to my first thread, you will see that out of the gate on BD I made all the classic mistakes. I begged, cried, pleaded, promised, used reason and logic, etc. In short, I looked like an over-attached baby, a beta (omega actually) that couldn't stand on my own, let alone command respect from my W! How unattractive that must have looked.

Her reaction was to say definitively, "I want a divorce".

I then on day 3 following BD remembered DBing. I started to reacquaint myself with DB, and started reading MWD's writing and watching her videos. I started to read other anti-D experts with similar approaches, and soon the idea of detachment came up. I vaguely remembered the concept from our first sitch 12 years before (I read MWD and other back then too), and started to change my approach to my sitch. I wasn't perfect, but unlike most LBSs (fortunately for me, unfortunately for them), I was trying extremely early (most don't find this forum and DBing until weeks or months in). And I think that is why my sitch turned around in the amount of time that it did.

So the first lesson is to start working on detachment as soon as possible! Preferably before BD but most people don't have that foresight, but at least as soon after BD as possible.

If you read back in my threads you will see that we had a bit of a hiccup in late summer 2019. The difference? This time I was an alpha, completely confident in the fact that even if she left me I would not only be fine, but move on healthy and happy! And boy did that change my approach to the situation.

There was no neediness, no pity party. It was me stating the fact that I had discovered emails from another guy (in retrospect he was definitely more into her than she was into him, but still she should have shut it down immediately instead of allowing it). But it was my handling out of the gate that really set the tone for how quickly she expressed remorse, and took ACTION (notice, not words) to correct it. Because I was a rock, I was firm but not mean or overbearing. I essentially let her know that I would not tolerate it, that I had some decisions to make for myself moving forward, but that she was free to do whatever she wanted. (One of my best lines was "I have no desire to be with someone that I have to check up on." I didn't over emphasize it. I stated everything once, and left it at that. I didn't tell her what she had to do, dictate anything to her, I simply let her know that I had my boundaries and if she crossed them I would take action.

There was a little bit of rebellion at first from her. A little defensiveness. She started in on the "snooping" aspect of it. Which I quickly shut down by saying that snooping on your spouse was no where near the transgression that entertaining the affections of a third part were and that I would not tolerate it being elevated to the same level. She never mentioned it again.

By day 2, I could see her remorse setting in. She started working on a home project she had been putting off for quite a while. She inventoried all of her accounts and made sure I had all of the login IDs and PWs. (I was insistent that I was never going to use them, but she insisted on me having them.) She took the lock ID off her phone. (I"ve since convinced her to put it back on due to the sensitive nature of personal information, like banking, so she has but I know the code.) She expressed a lot of remorse and said she was going to work on getting back to a place where she could trust herself, and have me trust her as well. And her actions have all, in the over a year since it happened, been aligned with that.

The point is that my detachment (self-differentiation) allowed me to handle this mini-sitch in 100% the right way out of the gate, and the effect it had on her was profound. But even if she had decided that she wanted to split and get a D, I would have been perfectly fine. In fact, my attitude has completely changed since we reconciled 2 1/2 years ago from "I want to stay with her no matter what!" to "I don't want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me!" That is detachment!


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2906847#Post2906847

Telling the children:
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
It's not really possible to shield kids from these situations. Maybe early on, but not for long. Kids are intuitive, more than we give them credit for. They know when things are not right between their parents and if you try to hide it from them it makes them think it's their fault. So it's best to sit down with them and discuss it. What kids need to know first and foremost is that it isn't their fault, so emphasize that both of you love them, both of you support them, and no matter what happens between W and you, both of you will always be their parents and be there for them. They need reassurances more than anything. Ask them if they have any questions or concerns, and listen and validate.



Quote
She offered to me to separate or divorce, she says it is up to me. She said that there is 0% of us staying together, but if it would be easier on me we can start with a separation. She said we will not be working on the marriage during this time. My question is, do I just let us go ahead and go through with the divorce, or do I make the call to just start with the separation? Thoughts?
Quote
My thoughts are that it's HER decision, not yours. Your decision is to work on the M. If SHE pursues S or D, then you can't stop her and you won't stand in her way. But you also will not do the work for her. Look, I would absolutely not give her an "out" on this. If she tells you to decide between S and D, then no matter which you pick you've just given her permission to tell everyone "well he said this is what he wants". Don't give her the satisfaction! Tell her "I choose neither, I want to work on the M. But I understand that this is what you want and I will not stand in your way. I support your decision whatever it is." If you have a reading list, add Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" to it. A lot of it dovetails nicely with DR. He talks about "opening the cage door" for the WAS. WAS's will often say they feel "trapped" or "caged". Dobson compares the situation to a bird, it wants out of it's cage but if you open the door and it realizes it isn't trapped, it may decide it likes it in there after all. Or it may fly off and then come back, deciding it likes the safety of the cage after all. Or it may never come back, but the idea is you are stepping back and letting her decide. If she thinks you are controlling then this is a good 180.


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Good one from Steve

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2906866&page=6

Originally Posted by Steve85
I always answer questions like this with a question (or questions). Do you want to be separated? Do you want a D? Here is the thing, WASs/WSs are notoriously lazy when it comes to these things. She wants you to do all the work. She wants to be able to look back and tell people (your kids?) that YOUR dad was the one that wanted a separation and/or divorce. Trust me on this, I've seen it dozens of times. One S has an affair or wants out of the marriage. The LBS finally gets tired of waiting and files for D. Years later the WAS' story is that "we were having problems, and ScottB pulled the plug."

I've told lots of LBS that were in IHS before, that if you think separation is going to help or fix things etc then you are sorely mistaken. We see a myriad of sitches on this forum and it always amazes me the GRASS IS GREENER attitude that LBS have. If in IHS they say "if we didn't have to see each other so much" etc....... But then read the sitches that are in physical separation. You see those LBSs saying "She won't talk to me. I have no way of showing her my many changes I am making." I've also so seen many IHS LBSs that HAD to push for S for their own sanity, only to find themselves separated and wishing they weren't.

The moral of this story is that Scott if you want a separation, then yes go for it. If you want a D, then yes go for it. But do not do it to fix the marriage or have any such expectation. Do not do it to "wake her up" to the reality of the sitch. If you try to S or D for any other reason than to be S or D then you will look back with regrets that you are S or D!!

My advice is to not lift a finger. Next time it comes up tell her it is her choice to S or D, not yours. If she wants S or D then SHE should move out and/or file. Of course she wants to make it your choice. It is like going out to eat. "Where do you want to go to eat?" "I don't know, where do you want to go to eat?" No one wants to make a choice in case it turns out to be the wrong choice! She is doing the same thing here.

Ride it out. Make her do the work. Listen and validate. Make no promises. Open that cage door and let her decide whether to go through it or not.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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