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#2905536 10/12/20 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Nanny Ogg knew how to start spelling 'banana', but didn't know how you stopped.


Old thread - Give A Mouse A Cookie
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2905535&page=1

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Language was undoubtedly developed for one ape to tell another where to find the best bananas. It fails horribly when you attempt to use it to describe the nuances of the intangible.


The story continues.


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(((Andrew))) ♥

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I do not envy you Andrew. Breaking up with someone is so, so difficult to do. It is even harder when you live with that person and there are kids involved. I’m not sure when or if you will ever be completely ready to do it. I do, however, hope that you don’t wait for a big blow to do it as I think that would be even worse. Better to sit down calmly and explain that you care about her and wanted things to work but you have come to the realization that the situation isn’t working for you and it won’t work for you in the long run given your incompatibilities in terms of how you live your day-to-day lives. My sense is this is a conversation S has had in the past and will not be unfamiliar to her. I also think she will make a fuss about it BUT she is a survivor and she will land on her feet. My advice, though, is that when you do finally tell her, give her a time frame to find a new place and move out. Otherwise you could find yourself with an unwanted roommate for quite some time. As others have said, she has it pretty good at your house. (((HUGS)))

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Andrew,

Dig deeper for that courage and know that we are all here for you. Talking to your son may have given you more clarity on the situation than you realize. Please, if you are going to pull the plug, do it sooner rather than later because the upcoming holiday season is fast approaching. S is going to need some time to find a place and move all of her "stuff" from your home...or you can offer to store it until she gets settled in a new place...but this relationship is not good for any of you.

She will not be surprised by your announcement. She's been down this road several times. I still think she's been looking for apartments as a fall back in case you announced that it wasn't working. In fact, her other xhs wouldn't be surprised about this outcome either.

Andrew, stay strong and know that once she and the clan are gone, you can finally get your house back in order, find some peace and do the projects that you have on your list and yes, even be able to sleep better. Who knows, the "girls" may even come to visit again.

It's time to do the right thing for both of you...it's not working.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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or you can offer to store it until she gets settled in a new place.


OMG NO!!!!!!!!! Do NOT offer to store ANYTHING! You do a hoarder no favors by storing their stuff - they just get MORE STUFF. This is how she kept her foot in the door with her exes by leaving stuff there. She managed to cram most of this stuff in her old apartment, she can do it in a new one. Or she can get one of her exes to store it. Or you can throw out whatever she leaves behind! But do NOT become a storage service for another person Andrew - you already have seen how difficult it has been to get rid of your son's young friend's stuff.

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And while it's best to place no blame when breaking up, if the subject of storing her stuff with you comes up, just say no. Tell her she's a hoarder and way worse than your ex was, and you won't be enabling that. You can't live with it and you won't enable it. Imagine if an addict asked you to just keep their heroin for them???

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kml,

You are absolutely right...my bad! Andrew, ignore my suggestion of storing her stuff....it all has to go! Also, be sure that the freezer w/the deceased pets in it go too.

Also, it's time that your son's friend come get the rest of her stuff too. Time to reclaim your home for you.

Andrew, one last thing...please do not allow her to convince you that things will get better. They aren't....look at what you have to face most mornings, i.e., cleaning up dog poop, dirty dishes, etc. It will not get better, trust me.


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I'm just going to be honest here and I'm going to stop apologizing for "piling on" because I have to add something to what job said. I guess I'm just going to take my place as the Negative Nancy in the crowd because I always seem to find more negative to add, but I could not agree more with Job's last paragraph above. You had to get up and clean up dog poop and look at a room destroyed with dirty dishes, food left out, etc. And, you made excuses for her: her bad back would not allow her to do it. Ummmm, I'm sorry she has a bad back, but my husband has a bad back and he gets up every day and goes to work and sandblasts all day. (If you don't know how physical a job that is, google it....) I'm not even going to apologize for sounding harsh here, because THIS is why S has continued to use and manipulate people. She may well have back issues and be in agony, but people who don't live in chaos would muster through cleaning up the kitchen and would have asked for help from D26, sons and whoever else to get it done, even if it meant just putting away or discarding food and preparing dishes to be washed (stacking in or near sink, scraping scraps from them, rinsing). And, even a person with back issues can see and pick up dog poop. She is allowing you to wait on her hand and foot because you do it and you don't fuss to her about it. You may fuss to us, which is fine, but it does absolutely no good. It is time she stopped holding you hostage with her excuses of medical issues.

Oh and kml is right and I see that Job has also agreed. DO NOT OFFER TO STORE OR KEEP ANYTHING. Her crap is NOT your problem. Just like your young friend, whom I'm assuming has still not removed all of her stuff from your house.

(((((((((Andrew)))))))) I know none of this is easy and you have made a very difficult decision and now you have to act on that decision. I wish you courage, strength, compassion, and whatever else you need to rely on to make it through all of this. You already have all those things within you, but I hope that they all show up full force for you when you need them. We are all here to support you through this. If you need to talk, vent, cry, scream, cuss, you know where else to find me. wink Big love and hugs, my friend...……….


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I agree with Dawn - even if her back was killing her (and it probably was) what kept her from telling her family "Ok guys, I cooked, I expect you all to do the dishes before you leave"?? Or at the very least enlisting someone to help her put the food away and put the dishes in the sink to soak. It's the lack of thoughtfulness towards YOU that is concerning.

You participated Andrew by hinting you would do the dishes in the morning - STOP DOING THAT! Speak up about what you want and your expectations; "S, please make sure the dishes are done and the food is put away after meals. I hate waking up to a mess in the kitchen in the morning."

I know, some people do leave dishes (a recipe for cockroach infestation btw) but seriously, I don't know any functioning adult over 30 who really thinks this is ok. At least put the food away and rinse or soak the dishes.

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And mind you, this is coming from someone who is NOT a perfect housekeeper. CMM would complain that I might leave a plate or glass by the sink during the day, or have a tendency to let clutter accumulate (My gym bag from my car sat in my living room for three days before I remembered to carry it upstairs to my bedroom closet. Mail and books do tend to pile up. I don't mop the kitchen floor or clean the gas stove parts as often as CMM would think is appropriate - I think every two weeks is fine, he thinks they should be done weekly.) This is SO FAR BEYOND just a little messy housekeeping.

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I wasn't able to do it.

We got talking this morning and I tried explaining that I was unhappy which she knew but couldn't understand why. I dug deep for some very difficult words. She asked if I wanted her to leave and I couldn't say yes. More talking, more tears from both of us. She did ask if I was open to seeing her therapist as a couple and I agreed that if I couldn't work with S on getting over my unhappiness that we certainly should do that.

S did say, no brick throwing please, that she was happy here and with me except for the fact that I was unhappy and that I seem to be shutting her out.

I honestly don't know if this was right or wrong choice but the choice has been made. I am also sure that S will be on edge for the next while which is an unfortunate consequence of me being open with her.

I'm glad that even though I didn't have the courage to deal with this, that when the opportunity came to talk that I did and was honest.


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Originally Posted by AndrewP
I wasn't able to do it.

We got talking this morning and I tried explaining that I was unhappy which she knew but couldn't understand why. I dug deep for some very difficult words. She asked if I wanted her to leave and I couldn't say yes. More talking, more tears from both of us. She did ask if I was open to seeing her therapist as a couple and I agreed that if I couldn't work with S on getting over my unhappiness that we certainly should do that.

S did say, no brick throwing please, that she was happy here and with me except for the fact that I was unhappy and that I seem to be shutting her out.

I honestly don't know if this was right or wrong choice but the choice has been made. I am also sure that S will be on edge for the next while which is an unfortunate consequence of me being open with her.

I'm glad that even though I didn't have the courage to deal with this, that when the opportunity came to talk that I did and was honest.


(((Andrew)))

I know this is so very difficult and you don't want to hurt S. From where I'm sitting, you were neither open with her nor were you honest with her, at least not completely. You've made the decision to end it and now you are backtracking and talking about going to therapy with her. This is not serving you well at all. You were honest about being unhappy, but she says she couldn't understand. This is so hard, Andrew, really, and there is not one of us on this board who doesn't support you and want to help you through all this, but you cannot prolong it and get sucked back in. You have made a decision and you need to push forward with it. You DO know if it is the right or wrong choice. Deep down in your heart, you do know. Hold on to that.


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Did you at least have the courage to tell her what was MAKING you unhappy???? Of course she's happy there - no responsibilities, bills paid, lounging around watching TV and not bothering to clean up after herself or her brood. She's living the life of an irresponsible teenager on your dime.

If you didn't make it clear, you need to put it in writing. Expectations need to be clear. Something along the lines of:

The clutter has to go. Now. Not 6 more months from now. She needs to get help for her hoarding.

Things have to be cleaned up. The dog has to be let out every night before she goes to bed to do it's duty. Dishes need to be washed and food put away after dinner meals.

There needs to be complete financial transparency on her part and the grocery spending needs to be jointly agreed.

That you expect her to make some effort to get up in the morning at a reasonable hour.

BUT - these would be things to discuss if you were interested in making this work. I'd suggest that it is just delaying the inevitable and would be a waste of time but if you're not ending this now then these are the bare minimum of things that would be required.

Also - I would jump at the chance to attend a session with her therapist and take that opportunity to relate to her therapist that she's a hoarder and you can't live with that.

But in all reality, hoarders are very difficult to work with and it's unlikely that she will change. Plus the hoarding is just one aspect - if she was a hoarder who treated you great and respectfully in all other ways, it might be different. But she is not. She doesn't enforce the chores chart with her boys, she doesn't even clean up the kitchen after herself. And she doesn't even have the insight to know why you might be unhappy with living in this hoarding mess!

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Andrew....

I’m not S and she isn’t me, but I can honesty that if I was in a new relationship (and it’s still new) I’d try be the dream partner.

Your place would be spotless, the sex would be frequent (as it’s still new and fresh, for now ;)). I wouldn’t spend my time on the phone, I’d go to bed the same time as you and I’d want to get up early to potter about my new home.....making it mine.

In my experience, and I’m only talking about me.....if you are getting nooky once a fortnight a year into your relationship, you’ll be lucky to get it on your birthday once the ring is on her finger.

I know we’re not teenagers here with raging hormones, but come on.

You guys are not compatible. No amount of council will change that frown

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Oh Andrew. A few sessions with HER therapist isn’t going to make her into someone she is not, and most likely will never be. Nothing is going to change except for drawing out the inevitable.

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Andrew,

If you are going to melt every time you try to have a deep discussion w/her because she's tearing up or whatever, then I suggest you type up a list of the things that are making you unhappy and give it to her. Trust me, she understands more than she's letting on. She has this way about her and it's called manipulation and saying she doesn't understand. She darn well knows that you are very close to telling her to hit the road and once again, another kibble has been tossed to Andrew to keep him on the string. She's blind to your needs and quite frankly, doesn't give a fig about how your home looks and smells, nor does she appear to respect you and your home.

If you ever, and I mean ever get so disgusted that you tell her to hit the road, you are going to have one heck of a time getting rid of her. She's going to try everything in her bag of tricks to stay there and keep you. Why? Because she knows you make good money and are a kind and compassionate man and have a home. Stop and think about how she reacted about you stalling on her moving in. That was manipulation on her part and she's not going easily. She knows that she can manipulate you to do whatever she wants. Andrew, you've got to get stronger and just tell her.

BTW, going to therapy w/her...I would have to meet w/the therapist on my own and lay it all out to the person. You need to tell the therapist that if things do not improve, she's out the door. You are not the one w/the problem...she is.

We all understand that you are trying to give this relationship every chance, but after 5 months, things should have gotten better not worse. It's time for her to either sh*t or get off the pot, better yet, get out of that freaking bed and be an adult and a mother to her two boys that are living there. They are not your responsibility.

You have to buck up and tell her and do not put this off another week. She needs to hear exactly why you are unhappy and she needs to understand that if things do not change after that conversation and continue to change, she, her children, the pets and all of her stuff will be out the door.





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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Originally Posted by AndrewP
She asked if I wanted her to leave and I couldn't say yes.

So I'm guessing you said no? I was out running errands and not able to post so many of you beat me to it. I too get it's difficult, though I don't understand much of it, so that part is more difficult. But here's my problem with all of this:

You lied to her, Andrew. Correct? I mean we see this all over the boards. A wayward spouse is asked "are you sleeping with X?" or "Are you seeing someone else?" and the answer given is no. It of course is a lie (in their cases not yours) but they lie - and this infuriates the left behind person all the more. Why lie to her? That's what gets to me. And i suspect the answer is NOT to make her feel better - it's to make YOU feel better. Am I correct?

I can understand perhaps you were not ready to kick her out. Okay, that's understandable. But why not at least, when asked, "Do you want me to leave?", answer with, "It's been crossing my mind a lot lately." or even "I'm still thinking about all sorts of options, but yes that is certainly one of them." There are many other response options that could at lease provide an honest answer to her rather than a lie.

I agree with the others that going to C is not going to help anything - and you know that too. But it's the chicken's way out. Sorry, I typed and deleted that several times but it's going to stay. There is no way any couple can have any chance of solving things and making them better if they are both not honest about issues. If you really do want to give this some last ditch chance, you'll not get there by avoiding the truth. You need to be honest. TELL HER THE TRUTH. Tell, her this has been bothering you for a while now. You don't think it's going to work but you feel bad for her and the boys and don't want her to be hurt. BE HONEST. If you lie to her she is going to be MORE HURT. Tell her how you are feeling. It's only by being honest and putting our cards on the table that ANY R can work - whether with a co-worker, with a relative or with a lover. PLEASE TELL HER THE TRUTH.


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Stop and think about how she reacted about you stalling on her moving in. That was manipulation on her part


Oh yeah, I'd almost forgotten about that. You very reasonably tried to slow that runaway train down and in the end, all you got was less than a month's delay. Do you see now how NOT standing up for yourself at that time led to more pain in the long run?

And it's entirely possible that by NOT standing up for yourself today, you could be put in the position of booting hem out of your house on Christmas Eve?

No good deed goes unpunished, and trying to soften the blow by not telling the truth doesn't help anything.

Frankly, I'd sit her down again tomorrow and say:
"Look, this is really difficult but I wasn't entirely truthful with you yesterday. My unhappiness is really caused by living in the mess that you brought with you and apparently are accustomed to. I simply cannot live like this and I believe I have given you more than enough time to fix the problem. I am seeing now that it won't ever be really fixed because you have a problem with hoarding. I feel bad because I don't want to hurt you or the boys but this is simply not what I thought I was getting into. I do think it would be best for all of us if you started looking for a new place."

Don't fall victim to the Sunk Cost Fallacy.

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(Or just put what I said into writing if you lack the guts to tell her to her face.)

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I'm sorry to hear this. frown

What are you expecting to happen with couples therapy? I recommend meeting with a counselor that specializes in couples therapy and not someone either of you have worked with before.

Were you really honest with her?? I don't understand how she couldn't understand why you're unhappy if you were honest.

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This is my thoughts on S from living with someone like her for years.

The mentioned big house she lost?? She found a new one. ( for now )
The previous move to Ottawa.... ( money pilling in the bank kept secret from you )
The lack of integrity in the foundation of your relationship.
The irresponsability she shows to her children and pets.
The tactic ( manipulation ) she uses on you to forfill HER desire while discounting yours.
You get my point..

Andrew, you brought up the love language book to me and i love it.
We talk about it often.

What did you say S' s language was in the beginning of your relationship?

Is it still the same?

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Andrew, pray for strength and just do it. You cause more harm by delay. You know this. You can do this.


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And no, you were not honest.


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"Someone I loved once gave me
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Andrew,

I feel for you. I really do. You hate the idea of conflict and you hate the idea of hurting people. You are self-sacrificing and most of the time you don't mind the paying the price. But you do - and for good reason. I think you know that the price is too high - and you're not the only one paying.

What you might call patience might be seen by others as enabling S's self-destructive behaviours. It's clear you're not at all comfortable making her account for her shortcomings or their consequences. Those consequences make you unhappy. She suspects you're unhappy - she may even know why - but she is incapable of making a difference.

S can't be be what you want. She's just not compatible with you and no amount of "I can change" statements will fix that. Nor will papering over the cracks, pretending there are no disappointments or unmet expectations. You are going to let her try to be something she's not - and I don't think that is fair on either of you.

Quite frankly I think it's clear that S is not going to become a better person for being with you. I don't see she has impetus or motivation to increase the respect she has for herself. Worse, there is a fair chance she knows that no matter how much you dissemble, she's losing yours.

From where I'm standing it's clear that being together is not good for either of you. I agree with quite a few others here that it'd be the best thing for both of you to go your separate ways.


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Thanks so much all. Difficult times indeed.

Originally Posted by exquisitetobe
Andrew, you brought up the love language book to me and i love it.
We talk about it often.

What did you say S' s language was in the beginning of your relationship?

Is it still the same?
I imagine that it is still Quality Time as is mine. It's just that we have different ideas on how that time is spent.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
And no, you were not honest.
(({{bttrfly}})) - As I mentioned in the prolog - words are an inadequate tool for communicating and the truth can be an ephemeral, changeable thing. Some truths may be self-evident, but only to the person hold that truth. But yes - absolutely - I was not honest with her that I did think it best that she and the boys move out. But I also don't want her to. Laying there the night before having that warm presence beside me wasn't something I wanted to lose. She does motivate me to not be a sailing stone carving a random path along the playa.

I continue to be torn about it all. The cognitive dissonance that despite all the rational evidence to the contrary that causes a person to believe in the possible.

S did seem very shocked and surprised that I would even consider that she would be moving out not to mention badly hurt. I undoubtedly was wrong in suspecting that she was looking for the door or perhaps if I was correct, then she was shocked that I was willing to open it.

For my own part, I felt a huge amount of relief as the load of carrying that frustration lifted off of me by getting it out. I do feel horrible that she is now burdened with it. Despite what it may seem like from the outside, she has made consistent progress in getting things organized and put away. Just not with any sort of speed. Considering that it didn't arrive organized at all this is a decent accomplishment in my mind.

Undoubtedly as most people suggest, the longer this would drag on, the harder to make the break it would be. And as S herself said "perhaps we got engaged too soon".

If S hadn't been thinking about an exit, I'm 105% sure now that she is. She'd be stupid not to. And she's not a stupid woman. She's seen this story play out more than once including a time when she was in her car in the driveway and was told that it was over.

I do know that she's held off sending her contribution to the monthly bills in and did finally late yesterday send in some cash which was after I pointed out that we were in over-draft and that I was worried. Is it that she's accumulating a nest egg or is just oblivious to the situation?

I know that I should be active and take action. As I said, I'm so very torn.

As was talked about on kml's thread, I do think that S does perhaps believe in the concept of a soul-mate and destiny.
The soulmate as a stalker is certainly a thing though. S has that pseudonym because she was originally referred to as "stalker lady". I think that she had me marked out and perhaps built a narrative around that actually years ago. She certainly suddenly kept a steady view on my social media. She said that she had also done some sort of "reading" on me and it identified me as an ideal partner.

As is the case with these type of personalities, they can be both insecure and controlling I feel.

First official day of vacation. I spent much of yesterday washing dishes to nobody's surprise. S offered to help dry which she often does and yes, I didn't take her up on it. It is a task that if I am doing it, I prefer to do it alone. Perhaps something I should get over.

I have to go into the hardware store and pick up some plywood for some paneling repairs and S and I are planning on going for a walk in the woods in the afternoon after S13 is done with his online school work.

Tomorrow S is up baby-sitting her GS and I hope to get a lot of the plaster repairs in S13's room done. I have lots to keep me puttering and occupied.

Thanks again everyone for the kicks, nudges and kind thoughts.


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Andrew,

There is an absolute difference in "getting engaged too early" and "moving in too early". Getting engaged does not mean that people are going to live together at the drop of a hat. Now, the moving in part, I do think that she pushed a bit too much to move in entirely too soon as she's not divorced and may not be for a long time.

Look, I'm going to be very honest with you. You have talked to people IRL about your relationship w/S and what may be transpiring in your home and how you feel and you come here, where it is a safe place to post and get the thoughts of the others. However, the person that you need to sit down with and have a very open and to the point discussion with is S. She is the one that you need to be expressing your feelings to. If you are at a loss for words, write down a list of what you need in the way of making you feel better about the relationship and the state of your living arrangements. S needs to hear this from you.

BTW, I certainly hope that you are not taking on any "new" projects while you are off. If I recall, you have a few that you've been attempting to work on since before S and her clan moved in.

Again, do not wait too long to pull the plug on this relationship. The longer you hold off, the more difficult it will be to end it. Andrew, there are more women out there that are far better in keeping a house clean and making it a home who are either single and/or divorced. You do not need to rescue all of the women who are sitting on the fence and not divorced. You have a lot to offer someone and that someone is out there. You deserve someone who will love you for you and not your home or your pay check. Someone who has the same interests and will be excited to work w/you on your many projects and take those walks and will love to travel w/you. You need someone who will enrich your life, not create anxiety and dissatisfaction w/how things are turning out.

Try to carve out some time for just you. Take those walks, drink your beer and visit w/your son. He's a wise young man.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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[quote Is it that she's accumulating a nest egg or is just oblivious to the situation?][/quote]

By your calculations she's got around a $3,000 nest egg already. Either that's true, or she's been spending $3,000 elsewhere.

AS for the monthly contribution - you need to be asking for that in a timely manner. You keep waiting for her to do things on her own and it's very clear she's not good at that. So you sit there stressing about an overdraft yet wait until the 12th of the month to ask her where's the transfer? There should be a set day for it (if the money comes in on the 3rd, then the 4th should be the transfer day) and just TELL her "hey, it's the 4th, transfer day".

Now, if she was REALLY a partner, she'd be telling you - "hey, I'm keeping out a little for an emergency fund, but once it gets to X dollars, all the rest of the extra will go to paying down that consolidation loan. " Instead her finances are still opaque to you and that's not a good thing.

As for the dishes - WHY do you keep taking them on? If you enjoy them, then fine - but you're setting yourself up to be Dobbie the house elf. "Oh don't bother with the dishes tonight, Andrew likes to do them, so leave them in the sink for him tomorrow". You need to be CLEAR - "hey S, when I;m doing dishes I do like to do them alone, but my PREFERENCE would be that people do their dishes after dinner and I don't have to wake up to a kitchen full of dirty dishes and food that's not been put away". And really, shouldn't the boys be learning to do dishes? You might need to get over your preference for doing them alone and assign a helper each night so they can learn these skills. Then eventually every night one person is assigned to do the dishes - and you are only doing them yourself twice a week.

I'd guess you haven't told her you're unhappy with her sleeping half the day away. And you're unhappy with the dirty dishes. And you're unhappy with her blowing the grocery budget and not working with you on meal plans. And you're unhappy that she doesn't make sure the dog does his business at night before she goes to be so you don't wake up to find dog poop on the carpet. (Have you even TOLD her how many times you've found that?)

You're NOT asking for anything unreasonable. And although you say she's "making progress" on the decluttering, imagine how much progress would have been made if she let you help ? If the two of you worked on it one weekend day a week it would all be put away and tidy by now. It's really NOT reasonable that all these months later things are still such a mess, and it's happening because she's a hoarder who can't let go of things. Plus I give it 2 weeks before the spaces that were cleaned up for Thanksgiving are a mess again.

I still think, if it was me, I'd put off the projects that aren't "urgent" and treat the decluttering as an emergency. Your life will be MUCH better if the plastering or kitchen painting aren't done for a while but the clutter is removed and your living spaces are organized and clean.

I know it's hard to think of losing the companionship (and the sex). But honestly, you can easily find another companion - the numbers are on your side as a guy - and you're a "catch" as you're a gainfully employed financially stable homeowner without addictions.

But IF you're going to commit to working on this relationship, I would definitely see her therapist and address the hoarding and cleanliness issues.

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And Andrew - while I know you're trying to spare her feelings, if you're not EXPLICIT about what your expectations are and what's bothering you, she can't be expected to correct those things. Just setting a vague endpoint and expecting her to rise to the occasion is not really working in this case. So be much more concrete.

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I, again, agree with kml. You are a nice guy and you avoid conflict like you are avoiding the 'rona, and I suspect you would rather poke out your own eye with a sharp stick before hurting anyone, but my dear, sweet, kind-hearted man, you are doing S no favors in giving her vague information about your unhappiness then just waiting and hoping it all gets better. You say she didn't understand your unhappiness, but as someone else pointed out, I think she understands WAY better than she is letting on. As several before me have said, she's been down this road before, so she knows. I think she is counting on your kind and passive nature and the fact that when she turns on the waterworks or tosses a few nice sentiments your way (like being happy in your home, other than seeing you unhappy and shutting her out....don't you see how even that was manipulating you into taking fault in the whole thing while she is the poor, sick, single mom with a laundry list of medical issues that prevent her from working, starting her own business, doing anything productive in any form or fashion....but, you are shutting her out?)

I promise I do not come here with the intentions of hitting you with a 2x4, but if there was ever a time when you needed it, it is now. I'm sorry you are in this place. Sorry you are not getting your needs met. Sorry that you have been put in a decision to make this decision. You have made the decision, however, and you MUST act on it. As others have already said, dragging it out does NO ONE any favors. It is going to make the whole ordeal much worse if you let it carry on. Do whatever you need to do to muster the courage to sit her down and TALK TO HER and BE HONEST. Do not back down. She will be fine. You really aren't helping anyone have better feelings for her when you tell us things like you call her "s" because she stalked you. Come on, now, Andrew....is that REALLY what you want from a relationship? Someone who stalked you, manipulates you, relies on you to support her and her brood and calls all the shots in your house while you sit back and act as the man servant for the chaos clan? I know we are not the same person, but I would be d@mned before I would allow myself to be used that way. I would rather be alone and have my house, my space to myself and the way I want it than to let chaos reign while I pay for it and let myself be manipulated by the person who creates it. You deserve so much more than that and it may take you a bit to find it, but like kml said, you are a catch. Start acting like one rather than acting like someone who deserves to be treated like a whipped dog.


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ok Andrew is the warm presence worth the rest? why do you think her presence is the only warm presence available to you?

btw, a ,lovely feline companion is also a warm presence ....


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I ask these questions because it is my hope they act as starting points for you to think about this in a different way.


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I wrote about 5 responses and deleted them all. I just know everyone is saying the same thing. You know what you need to do but are too afraid to do it. I’ll leave you with this.

Is 2 hours ( and I say 2 hours because of your sleeping schedules) of a warm body next to you worth the manipulation, laziness, chaos, hoarding, pretty much disrespect of your home , wants, and needs, money and schedule) worth it?

I would really look inward to see why a warm body for 2 hours is worth sacrificing so much of who you are, what you have built, and your very own pets is worth having a warm body? Like bttfly said, a warm body can be the body of a cat. Im sure if all you need is a warm body, you can find that in someone else who doesn’t require so much sacrifice of yourself.

I’m afraid that you will chose the path of just dealing with it and pretzeling yourself rather than speaking up, being direct, doing what you know you should do, all because of fear. She isn’t changing. So to make this work, you would have to. And I would hate to see you change into someone you don’t want to be in order to avoid confrontation or sacrifice a warm body.

But of course it’s your choice. Your life. And I wish you all the best

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Thanks everyone. I'm still stuck - perhaps I should be back over on newcomers smile

S is understandably taking this all very very seriously and is very nervous and scared.

She came up with a plan which will involve us spending more time together and is intending to make an appointment for us to see her therapist. I give it a 60-40 chance that she'll actually do that. She has a hard time making appointments despite a lifetime of doing that. I'm struggling with how to approach that if we do go. I hate to think that I would just use it as a b!tch-session complaining about all of S's shortcomings while taking no ownership of my own. I am certainly not perfect.

After S13 was done with the online portion of his school yesterday we went out for a bit of an adventure and to reconnect. We had a fight at the very beginning which almost aborted the whole thing. I have a lot less patience these days. I'd ordered something online (using money set aside) from a site where S had mentioned that she might also want to order something. The way I remember it was that she was going to look and let me know so that I could order at the same time. 2 weeks pass, nothing happens, so I go ahead on my own. So - I got the "you should have told me", "you never listen to me". When I tried brushing it off as a "you snooze you lose" (losing patience here) then the waterworks started and the hole got deeper. I have gotten tired of always having to consider if S might want to be involved in anything before proceeding and see an old pattern of me doing nothing resurfacing. A pattern that I know was not good for me.

We did end up having a nice day out, accidentally found a restaurant that had a very good gluten free selection and then went back and spent some time at a waterfall we had had one of our first dates at.

When we were out there she did ask if I still wanted to marry her and then said that we needed to wait until we were sure now. I did say - perhaps inappropriately - that we also needed to wait for her to get divorced which got no response. I do think that S is now giving more serious thought which she perhaps had not previously, to the possibility that this may end. A story we can presume that she's had play out numerous times in the past.

If this does end - which the consensus view here is that it should - then at least we'll have been open and given it a solid try rather than me blind-siding her (could be argued that she shouldn't have been surprised) and booting her out. I certainly owe her that along with a commitment on my own part to do my part to see if this can be salvaged.

In other news, S13 has asked his Mom if he can have a changed custody plan and stay with his Dad 50% at 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off. I'm presuming that this sort of thing by a teenager looking for the place with less rules isn't unusual. S didn't seem very perturbed despite the fact that his Dad isn't consistent or attentive in his parenting. Which I just find bizarre. Historically his Dad could only take the boy for at most a weekend here and there due to his out of control behaviour.

S is off now with S13 to go baby-sit. I picked up some plywood yesterday to to some paneling repairs in the front porch and want to try to find enough of S13's wall and floor to set up the ladder and get to some much delayed plaster repairs. S18 still hasn't started his own classes as of yet - he has at least 2 grade levels to complete to get his high-school diploma and is I believe going in an adult learning stream now.

And yes. S is not going to fundamentally change. She wants even more storage to be installed as that is her answer to the clutter. We can probably pick up an extra large used dining room hutch for cheap that will replace the large buffet cabinet. She says that her van is full of things to donate today and that is quite probably true. I am actually pleased and slightly surprised that she is able to let go of things and from the reading I've done on hoarding (thanks to the person who passed that on), having her own the process is about the only way that it can work at all. She is talking about specific larger items now that she also wants to give up.

I still have some clean-up from Thanksgiving to do. There are about 4 containers of open food in the dining room that I was told would be consumed as left-overs but after all this time, they are going to be compost. A fair amount still in the fridge that I can't get a straight answer from S on how she's intending to use it. I expect that there is no actual plan and that in time it will have to be tossed as well.

Even though I'm technically on vacation I'm also putting in a few hours of work to keep on top of things. Getting my books up to date, sending off my ex-wife her monthly cheque. A little bit under 1/2 done those payments now.

I continue to be torn. I think when I was talking about my ex-wife here I described her as that donkey who starved to death between two bales of hay. Simple answers require hard choices but also a lot of pain. If I was the only one being hurt then this would be a lot easier. How will all this play out, doubtless that tale will be told but has not as yet been written.


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I wonder if S13 is just looking for a place without rules, or looking to spend more time with his father (not unusual in teens of divorce) OR if he's picking up on the tension at home and seeing the old familiar pattern play out and wants no part of it?

Also - if he goes to 50:50 custody how will this affect S's child support? If she loses child support for both kids how much income will she have left coming in?

As for the ordering thing - I do detect a certain passive-aggressiveness to your actions. She said she wanted to order, you gave her time to come up with her order - fine so far. But then when she didn't follow up you went ahead without her instead of just saying "Hey, I'm going to order my thing now, have you got the info on the thing you wanted?" . It seems to be part of a pattern, you wait for her inaction and then get mad about it instead of reminding her. Granted, I'm sure it's annoying with someone as disorganized and forgetful as her. But I also see a little of CMM in your behavior. He might mention something to me - something I might forget about because I'm really busy and have numerous irons in the fire between work and my kids and him and the house - and then be mad at me weeks later because I didn't follow through on it, because I completely forgot about it. The better approach would have been to remind me at an appropriate time - "hey, remember you said we could switch those pictures in the dining room, would today be a good day to do that?" I don't have ADD but stuff DOES fall off my radar because I'm juggling so many balls and my priorities are different than his.

And with S18 - here in the US you can take a test called the GED and get out of high school. It's a knowledge test so you still have to know enough to pass it, but it's a way to move past high school without having to wade through all the classes. If he aspires to college he would (here) have to go to a community college first and do well there to be able to transfer to a 4 year university - they're not going to take someone with a GED unless they had an extraordinary background, like a computer genius or something. But if you have something equivalent there, it might be the best route for S18 - pass the GED then go to community college or trade school of some kind. Just a thought.

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Boys usually separate from Mom and gravitate towards Dad during pre-teen/early teen years. Also, perhaps the kid is trying to get some semblance of stability.

Why her reaction should surprise you is mystifying to me. It seems she pops out kids and decides they, like pets, are to be self sufficient way before a reasonable amount of time/rearing is done. This response is par for the course with her.

While I agree with Kml about your behavior here, I also want to reiterate that you are ONE YEAR in. ONE YEAR. If you feel like this now, when the dew should still be on the rose, what do you imagine it will be like a month, three months, six months or another year from now? You owe it to YOURSELF to take care of yourself and be true to who you are. You have given this woman and her assorted pets and relatives a roof over their heads, major slack financially, and whenever you raise concerns it is turned around so you are on the defensive. Having lived like that myself for way too long I can tell you it isn't going to get better. Consider this your "honeymoon" phase, and project the result from here.

You will, in the end, do what you want, as we all do.


M 20+ T25+
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Bttrfly beat me to it, but I too am totally mystified as to why S's reaction to S13 wanting to move in with his dad is in any way surprising to you. She seems to have no regard for raising her own kids, taking care of her own pets, or even really much to do with herself. You said you give it a 60-40 chance of her actually calling the therapist to schedule an appointment for the 2 of you. Can't you see how lazy and irresponsible that makes her sound. Worse, it just makes her sound apathetic about life in general. She sleeps, eats, spends your money without checks and balances and does whatever she d@mn well pleases while her kids do the same and you are now surprised that S13 wants to go somewhere else at least 1/2 the time. I suspect that it has more to do with dad not having rules and the fact that he's 13 and detaching a bit from his mom (as is typical for young teen boys), but I'm not sure he was ever attached to her to begin with.

You started your post saying you are still stuck. No, Andrew, you aren't stuck. You are scared. Scared of hurting her, scared of her reaction, scared of "letting her down" and her kids in turn. You are scared to admit that you couldn't rescue this one, though you have tried valiantly to do so.

Again, bttrfly beat me to it, but if this is how you feel now, while most things should still be all wine and roses, how are you going to feel 3 years, 5 years, or more down the road? How is she going to react when you do have some sort of health issue that requires her to take care of you? Is she really the person you want responsible for your care and helping you take meds and such when she can't even remember to take her own?

Like bttrfly said, you are going to do what you are going to do, regardless of what any of us say and I can assure you that despite the varying levels of harshness, we are all saying the same thing. Interestingly, we are saying things that you seem to agree with. I think you have a heart of gold, but I think you are selling yourself way short, my friend, by not ending it now. You are going to keep dragging it out and it is going to be ugly when it finally does happen. Don't let it get to that Andrew. And, most importantly, take care of yourself FIRST!


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You know, thinking about the child support question got me wondering. You said she never availed herself of any government support programs because she was "too proud". That doesn't make any darn sense. So it makes me wonder what the REAL story is. Too ADD to go through the application process? Never manages to get unmarried so she could qualify? Always figured she had another guy on the hook so she didn't need to?

And I do agree with bttrfly - whatever she's putting into the relationship and the household now, this is as good as it gets. I know you're still hopeful for change but honestly, at this age, few people are capable of that kind of significant change - and if she was, you would have been seeing a lot more of it by now.

As for the therapist - you're right to think just going in just with a laundry list of things for her to fix won't do it. BUT - only own the things that are really yours. You can own that you're not very direct about stating your needs and desires. That you're too vague about your expectations. But then also be very clear that you didn't expect to be living with a hoarder who leaves food out to go bad and doesn't wash their dishes or take the dog out to poop.

As for that van load to be donated - check to see how much comes back, or what she buys or brings home to replace it.

And what exactly would the bigger hutch be for storing? Surely the buffet and kitchen cupboards have enough room for dishes? Now if this is for her mom's china I could understand - but you might want to wait a couple of weeks until this all pans out before making any new purchases.

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Is there really much more stability and rules for S13 with his mom? She sleeps late, needs S13, to get her up to start school. You say he doesn’t do much of anything around the house and his mother enforces nothing. Feeds her kid nothing but Mac and cheese yet you say how much he likes your chicken. And you say he is painfully underweight?

I too, think he wants to be with his dad to have more sense of security. She left her 16 year old on his own to be with a man. Her other kids lives with their olde siblings in their minor years.

This must tell you something .

That kid is not going to his dads house so he has less rules. What rules does he even have now?

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I really apologize if that came off as mean. But I feel like you might not see some of the obvious. Although I really do think you see it, it’s just hard to grasp.

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Thanks again everyone. My heavens we are burning through this. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the rallying around even if it is mostly telling me to grow a pair.

I agree with you bttrfly - I lived with a strong, dominant woman who used her temper to keep me in line for 26 years. It doesn't get better other than that she got better at it and I required her to use it less.

There's a quote from a favourite author - I sometimes wonder how many of his books I've inspired people here to pick up. Possibly the number is over 1
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
The Empire's got something worse than whips all right. It's got obedience. Whips in the soul. They obey anyone who tells them what to do. Freedom just means being told what to do by someone different.
I'm not suggesting that either my ex-wife or S are / were doing this intentionally or it could also very much be my own imagination that I was being managed and controlled.

Oh - and kml - you are absolutely right. It was a bit of petty passive aggressiveness on my part. In my mind, something that "I" wanted to do was being co-opted by S again. I was also worried about the fact that the costs on this site were high - unique items by a very talented artist - and S was viewing it as "some Canadian stuff to send to her son in Australia". He still hasn't gotten last year's Christmas gift, nor a birthday card. As a minor story, everyone perhaps recalls that I go see my friend for a scone every Saturday. S is a friend of this person too and used to work in the kitchen doing dishes once a week (I know, I know). I'd pop in, say "hi" get my scone, hand over $3 and move on with my day being happy that I'm supporting a friend, local business and getting a tasty treat. Now S needs me to check with her before I go and comes along. She would then order probably about $15 of treats which I would pay for as she never would bring any money then stand there and gossip for 20 minutes while I am relegated to a background character. I did try going on my own once and that got me the angry "you don't listen to me" speech. So now when we go, I hand her her weekly pocket money just as we go out, order my treat, pay for it while she's chatting and she can pay for her own darned treat. Passive aggressive - yes.

I need to learn better skills at coping with such things. As I told S repeatedly yesterday, I need to make sure that things don't sit inside me and fester. That only builds up poisons.

kml - the new hutch I think is mainly intended for her grandmother's (great-grandmother's?) china plus "stuff". We can probably pick one up for a couple of hundred tops. Those big pieces go cheap. As an aside, I was horrified that she and her daughter had unpacked all the dishes and cups and stacked them up like normal dishes. After I washed the plates etc, I wrapped them up in paper and suggested to S that we get proper containers to store them in. That hard edge touching hard edge was not a good idea with fine china - something I don't think she knew.

---

Just popped in briefly. A work email came in that I need to look at more closely. I had a productive day. The rotted paneling in the front porch has been replaced. It would have been easier except for the stuff packed in there which I had to shift around. I was surprised and not surprised that there is no insulation in the walls. There is in the ceiling. I then did some other stuff in the workshop, gave the stairs a good sweeping which they've not had since April and am about to go in I think for a soak in the tub. Not sure what I'll be doing for dinner. I expect S to be home perhaps around 9:00 or so. Tomorrow I'm having wings and beer with my best friend I hope and I'll get an earful of the same messaging you all have been sharing.

((DB family))


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Originally Posted by Ginger1
I really apologize if that came off as mean. But I feel like you might not see some of the obvious. Although I really do think you see it, it’s just hard to grasp.
((Ginger)) - No need for apologies. I know you are saying these things because you care.


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I lived with a strong, dominant woman who used her temper to keep me in line for 26 years.


What was your mom like?

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yes Andrew, we do care. I feel like I was perhaps sounding more harsh than I intended. I guess the simplest way to put my feeling about this is to say that if it requires couples counseling at the honeymoon stage, then it seems like maybe this is a square peg you're trying to fit into a round hole, know what I mean? Shouldn't it be easy and effortless if it's really meant to be, at least on the front end? Of course there are always adjustments to be made in any relationship, just to the point of needing counseling this early in?

And I've wanted to comment on something S said - the notion of "maybe we got engaged too soon" No. That's not it. You were bullied into an accelerated timeline which circumvented the natural progression of this relationship. I'd bet it's a pattern she's played out many times before and will continue to play out after you've extricated yourself from this situation. If the relationship was allowed to progress naturally, my guess is you'd not be in this situation right now, because you'd have had a better insight into what you were getting and would have opted out.

This is YOUR pattern, though, seemingly, finding women who push for a quick commitment. You've described your marriage as starting with your exw taking you hostage. We all know the B situation. Now S. I am not trying to hurt you or pick on you or be a b!tch in any way, shape or form. I want you to look at this from YOUR side of the street so that when you do extricate yourself you'll know what to watch out for next time love comes knocking on your door. You'll have a better understanding of why you're attracted to these types and how to have a relationship where more of your needs are met and you're appreciated for your many gifts.

Capisce?


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I have gotten tired of always having to consider if S might want to be involved in anything before proceeding and see an old pattern of me doing nothing resurfacing


Also - could some of this be an introvert/extrovert thing? You want to get your scone and have a quiet walk while you enjoy it. She wants to come with you and socialize for thirty minutes with the clerk. You're deprived of your introvert time while she's getting her extrovert energy resupplied. An introvert and an extrovert CAN get along if it suits them - my extrovert ex managed our social life and I benefited from him being more proactive in that arena than I would be on my own - but it's not always an easy match. I like my alone time and I definitely like doing things my own way - which is part of why I'd probably never choose to live with another boyfriend after CMM is gone. Dating someone who has their own place and jist sleeps over some nights sounds way better to me.

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In my opinion, based on the story he told about S going with him to get his scone, that sounded way more like a jealousy thing than an introvert/extrovert thing. He was already doing this little routine of his and now he has to check with S and she goes and then treats him like a jerk if he wants to just pay and move along. It sounds to me, and again this is just my opinion, that she is either jealous or worried (or some combination of both) that Andrew is going to have a nice time without her, talking to another female, or maybe hearing some not-so-nice information about S herself. It seems not only jealous, but like she is trying to control the narrative that might take place both in regards to herself and to her relationship to Andrew. Now, mind you, I'm not there, so that might all just be bat crap crazy, but the part about her lecturing him yet again on how he doesn't listen when he tried to pay and move along screams jealousy, not extrovert to me. I also think it is very telling of S that she always goes along and doesn't take a dime with her. Why not pick up the whole tab occasionally? That's what I would do, especially if I were in her shoes and living pretty much responsibility-free off of someone. The least I could do would be to buy them a scone and coffee occasionally. And, here is my other question while I'm what-iffing someone else's business to death as though I can solve anything: if she is gluten intolerant or sensitive or whatever phrase we are going to use for it and supposedly so are her sons (in addition to just being teenagers and picky eaters), why is she buy $15 worth of pastries anyway?

I'm a HUGE advocate of couples doing things together, but also maintaining separate interests. I just don't think it is healthy to be up each other's @sses ALL the time. If Sparky were doing a little regular excursion something like this, I would wave him out the door with a smooch and a "see you later, have fun" and maybe "bring me something tasty, please" and he'd make some smart aleck comment about how he'd come back and we'd laugh, say we love each other and off he'd go. But then again, I'm secure in my relationship. I don't know that S has ever really been secure in a relationship. I mean, isn't she on husband #4? Sure, she could just really pick crappy men, but at what point does someone go "whoa...maybe the problem is HER and not all the men she keeps picking". Does that make sense?

Those are why I think her little reaction to Andrew's regular scone excursion are about jealousy rather than her being an extrovert. If she were an extrovert, she would behave very differently about the whole thing.

And, by the way, Andrew, is there a point when you realize that the bullying has to stop. I mean, your XW did it for years and now S is doing it and you respond with occasional passive aggressive outbursts that she just responds to with more bullying. It is a vicious, vicious cycle, my friend.


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I agree with every word Dawn has posted above. FWIW

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And, here is my other question while I'm what-iffing someone else's business to death as though I can solve anything: if she is gluten intolerant or sensitive or whatever phrase we are going to use for it and supposedly so are her sons (in addition to just being teenagers and picky eaters), why is she buy $15 worth of pastries anyway?


Hahaha Dawn wink
As for the pastries I believe this place had gluten-free offerings as well. And they DO tend to be more expensive.

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Yes, I get that gluten free is generally more expensive (do NOT even get me started on gluten free, organic, non-GMO, etc...………..), but my larger point was if they are all so fussy, $15 seems like a lot of money that she doesn't have or doesn't want to spend of her own, but is fine letting Andrew foot the bill. "Specialty" shops like bakeries tend to be fairly pricy anyway. I know we have a local one that has outstanding sweets and I paid nearly 10 bucks for 3 cupcakes for Sparky's mom's birthday (one for each of us), but it was a birthday, not a "hey it is Tuesday, so let's eat a cupcake." LOL But then again, other people's money is other people's money and it isn't my choice or my place on how to spend it, now is it?


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BTW - she has full blown Celiac Disease so it is VERY serious. And I just got off the phone with a gluten intolerant patient who got so ill she thought she had Covid then she figured out that the rice pilaf - which she had been eating every day at a restaurant on vacation - has pasta in it! So please don't belittle people who have to be gluten free - it's hard enough as it is.

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You know what....I typed a really long response and then I just deleted it because I just can't. I'm entitled to feel the way I feel about things. I'm just going to say this. I am an adult and I'm fully aware that celiac disease is a real and serious issue for some. I am also fully aware that some people choose to be gluten free for other reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with health. Please do not assume that my comments were made to belittle people just because you have a different opinion and outlook on things than I do. That is unfair to me. I did not belittle anyone in what I said. I merely alluded to the fact that I have a very strong opinion about the people who chase trends of being gluten free, organic, non-GMO without really understanding any of those just because those happen to be the "it" buzz words right now. Yes, you are a doctor, so you do understand them. I am a scientist and an agricultural educator so I understand them just as well as you do, though likely from a different angle. The one thing that we can likely agree on is that people who actually have celiac disease struggle mightily and have to be very careful. Those who are doing it to be trendy are the ones who should be told not to belittle things because "it is hard enough as it is" because THEY are the ones who are making people skeptical about it.


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Between full blown celiac disease and completely fine with gluten is a spectrum of gluten sensitivity and non-celiac gluten intolerance. You can have positive gluten or gliadin antibodies and not have full blown celiac disease, and still be significantly helped by a gluten-free diet. Trust me, it's difficult enough to do that most people won't stay on it as a "fad" for very long. 2/3 of autoimmune thyroid patients have gluten antibodies in their stool if you do a stool test and 1 out of 20 has full blown celiac disease so I see and treat it all the time in my practice which consists largely of thyroid patients. It helps NOBODY to label it as a fad - . I've had patients injured by servers not taking their requests seriously in a restaurant, and patients belittled by their families for their very real health condition.

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I agree that it helps no one for such things to be labelled as a fad, but we both know it happens and THAT is my issue...not people who have celiac or some varying level of insensitivity to gluten. There are a wide variety of allergies and sensitivities which people suffer from for any number of reasons. I have been blessed in my life to not be allergic to anything and I'm super grateful for that because one of my children is allergic to a variety of things and I see how she struggles. One of my sons-in-law is allergic to beef, so I have to be very careful about how and what I cook when he is around, so I'm not one to belittle anyone for having a legitimate issue.


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Girls! Don't make me have to come down there! You have both made your points so let it be. laugh

((Dawn + kml))


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Sorry for the hijack and I’m truly sorry if I offended you or S. I can see where my comments were far more harsh than I intended and I apologize for doing that on your page. I’ll keep my opinions to my own page from now on. wink


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But I won’t stop giving you my thoughts about your situation because I do it out of care and concern for you. Lol


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Originally Posted by AndrewP
Girls! Don't make me have to come down there! You have both made your points so let it be. laugh

LOL

You know, you might have some success if you utilized a similar attitude with S and her crew.


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D for the win


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Hey Andrew! smile

I wanted to chime in and say your comment about waiting for S's divorce to be final was not at all inappropriate. My husband refused to propose to me until my annulment with the church was completed. It's certainly not much to ask for her to be single before you discuss getting married.

How was dinner with your friend last night?

I think Dawn's comment was more about S tagging along and ordering 5x the amount of your order and expecting you to pay for her and not so much about the gluten-free portion.

Any plans for the weekend? When are you setting your boat up out front? Even if you're not passing out treats, I bet the neighbors would enjoy some normalcy!

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Happy Saturday all. A lovely sunny day here - quiet morning because as usual I am the only creature stirring.

Tough week behind and ahead.

First things first. S and 2 of her kids have a gluten sensitivity. Generally it causes some gastric distress and S says that it also makes her very irritable. They are not celiac.

The bit with the treats is typical. I would go and order a $3 scone. S would order several gluten free scones, Devon cream, jam and another treat or two. Just like when we would go out to eat. One place we went for lunch was also a used book-store. I had the $8 grilled cheese sandwich and a glass of mulled cider. S had the $23 fresh trout, a side dish and cider. She also bought a bunch of books several of which she said were for Christmas presents. Total bill $175. The Christmas presents were left sitting out and became "just because" things. She will often order the most expensive thing on the menu - in part because steak and fresh fish etc are gluten free I expect.

Originally Posted by dream
How was dinner with your friend last night?
We had a very nice and leisurely lunch. He's very worried about me. One thing he said that really stuck out at me is that he sees in me the same thing he saw in his mother. He calls it "caretaker syndrome". My aches and pains and gloominess is similar to what his mother had until his Dad passed on and she flowered. Perhaps some people aren't intended to live in the shade

Originally Posted by dream
Any plans for the weekend? When are you setting your boat up out front? Even if you're not passing out treats, I bet the neighbors would enjoy some normalcy!
I don't think I'll be pulling the boat out this year. Not only because there's so much stuff packed around it, but the neighbours and I have decided that we won't be doing a regular Halloween. S is intending to decorate and we'll get some candy in case someone comes to the door. I have a pirate costume for the dog smile

-------------

Some news to report.

S is very much moving to "oh !@#" mode I think. This morning there was a heart cross-stitch on my desk that she did up last night. We've talked some more and it gets easier each time. Some things seem to be sticking with her. The fact that I've given up so much to have her here. My brothers, my kids, my cats, a lot of stuff, beer. Yes - we can quibble about the details, but the basic facts are there. I think she is understanding that I am unhappy and some of the reasons why.

She even made dinner last night. Left-over turkey and gravy sandwiches with steamed frozen veg but more than has been typical of late. I also repeated a story yesterday and instead of the eye-roll and being shut down, I actually got half-way through before I realized it was a repeat.

I still did up the dishes and cleaned the kitchen while she went upstairs to watch TV. I "am" the one who has a thing about having a clean counter at the end of the day. I have mentioned to S when she commented the other day that she was intending on doing the dishes the next day that there would indeed be dishes to be done then even if we had a clean counter before I went to bed. She never did do them mid-day but at least thought about it which is more than before.

There is an underlying current of stress, depression and angst with her that certainly wasn't there before. I feel very sad about that but also relieved that she's having a reaction to a real problem.

She's made an appointment for us to see her therapist on Tuesday evening for an hour and a half. This therapist does specialize in couples counseling and has worked with S and been part of the same friend circle for years. Hopefully that will be a positive thing as she will begin with an understanding of S and her past relationships. I do know that she was pleased that S had found me and also I believe surprised. She did work with S in the early days when we were dating to help her get over some hold-over issues from past partners.

I have decided that the right approach for me is to take ownership of the issues that are bothering me - we're responsible for own happiness after-all and casting mud or stones is neither "nice" nor helpful. I'm doing up a list - using points from here and elsewhere to put some structure around the core issues as I see them that I am facing. The list still needs a "lot" of work , trimming and tweaking as a lot of it seems to be pointing fingers and not taking personal ownership of my reaction to issues.

- Loss of pride in my home
- Loss of so much that was important to me - family, pets
- Feeling like the whole burden is on me and "dancing as fast as I can" just to get less than the minimum done
- Feeling like my voice isn't heard and doesn't matter
- No longer having my own relationship with my own children - S requires to be involved in gifts, cards etc
- No time for me or my own interests
- Poorer health and worse diet
- Lack of exercise
- Money issues - it was expected that there would be no negative financial impact
- Feeling that this is a very "dark" environment. Dirt clutter and actual darkness - S doesn't like bright sunshine
- The lack of reciprocity - what "does" S bring to the relationship?
- Little overlap of time together and loss of most of the day with her being asleep while the world is shining and spinning out there
- Living with a hoarder is hard
- Dirt, stink, no ownership / being accountable for dealing with stuff - passed on to D26 or boys and picked up by me
- Dramatic decrease in living conditions
- Feeling taken for granted in many ways. A good example is when suddenly her entire family started coming every Sunday for me to make them dinner - a tradition they never had.

Again - I want to get good use out of this session. I do think that S has recognized that changes need to be made and that there's no papering over this.

----

S18 continues to flower here. He has a pellet gun which he's agreed is an outside thing only - as opposed to firing it off constantly in the apartment without pellets. He set up targets in the back-yard and was happy to learn that there are yard lights and was out there quite a lot. We were talking yesterday as I was driving him home from work about how his Dad has anger issues and will be physically violent with the kids and will grow arguments out of proportion. He said that everyone has learned how to know when I'm angry or upset. It seems that I say "grrr" under my breath.

S and I dropped S13 off with his Dad for the weekend - I hope to make time to get some plaster work done. S found at least part of his floor so that I can set up ladders. Because of visits from child-protective-services his Dad isn't violent any more but is powerless in discipline so perhaps a grand place for a 13 year old with behavioral problems? S doesn't seem concerned even with the fact that in the very small place there is also her D19 and BF and dog. I'd be driven nuts and living on the roof. D19 has "temporarily" moved out of S's former partner's house because of concerns with the other girl that is living in there not practicing good COVID protocols. Not that that stopped her and BF from driving out to Alberta and back this past week.

Sigh. If I do end up alone, I'll get myself a nice cat and spend time polishing the kitchen floor and admiring the peace I think.

Busy day today though and it needs to be faced. Leaving shortly to do the banking and get my roses. This afternoon car service and getting my snow tires put on. I then have to continue getting the new cabinet for the bathroom up and work on the plaster in S13's room.

Have a great weekend all. Oh and thoughts about my list and how to proceed in a positive - ie - non confrontational / blaming way in the therapy session would be appreciated. I do feel that when visiting a professional you take full advantage of their skills and time to get the results you want. What I want - is to find Joy and peace again.


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Correction - counseling isn't next Tuesday, it's on the week after.


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Loss of pride in my home
- Loss of so much that was important to me - family, pets
- Feeling like the whole burden is on me and "dancing as fast as I can" just to get less than the minimum done
- Feeling like my voice isn't heard and doesn't matter
- No longer having my own relationship with my own children - S requires to be involved in gifts, cards etc
- No time for me or my own interests
- Poorer health and worse diet
- Lack of exercise
- Money issues - it was expected that there would be no negative financial impact
- Feeling that this is a very "dark" environment. Dirt clutter and actual darkness - S doesn't like bright sunshine
- The lack of reciprocity - what "does" S bring to the relationship?
- Little overlap of time together and loss of most of the day with her being asleep while the world is shining and spinning out there
- Living with a hoarder is hard
- Dirt, stink, no ownership / being accountable for dealing with stuff - passed on to D26 or boys and picked up by me
- Dramatic decrease in living conditions
- Feeling taken for granted in many ways. A good example is when suddenly her entire family started coming every Sunday for me to make them dinner - a tradition they never had.


Good list, but let’s refine it down to the essentials for therapy- facts first:

1) X months now and the house is still a hoarders mess. You expected it to be a job to go through her things but did not expect she would spend so little time on it, be so ineffective at it, and have so much difficulty letting things go. You now recognize now that she is a hoarder and you are not willing to live in that mess.

2) You had been led to expect that she was going to start her business and be an equal partner but you now realize that given her history and her present actions she is not likely to ever pull her own weight in terms of working.

3) She sleeps most of the day and spends most of her time watching tv so you get little in the way of companionship out of the relationship.

4) The house is unclean - dirty dishes left overnight, food left out overnight, finding dog poop on the floors because the dog isn’t being let out to do it’s business regularly.

5) She doesn’t stick to the budget

Then how it affects you:

6) Depresses you to live in a dirty house

7) Deprives you of leisure time because you are cleaning up after everyone else

8) Causes you financial worry because this is turning into a much bigger financial deficit than you expected

Then your role in things:

9) Feel you don’t speak up enough directly about your own needs and wants

10) Feel you let her pressure you into moving in before you were ready

11) Own you can be passive-aggressive in your responses as a result.

Oh -and bring pictures of what you’re talking about. Hoarders can present as very normal to the outside world, this therapist may have NO IDEA and may have bought her stories about her clean freak ex and dad just as you did. Don’t forget to mention the unused items with price tags still on as that’s a classic hoarder/shopaholic thing.


As for celiac versus gluten sensitive - anyone who gets sick from beer on your breath is either true gluten allergy or celiac. And the $23 trout lunch? Sure, it can be tough to find gluten free things on a menu, but there’s always a burger without the bun or a salad. Sounds like she’s treating herself to some luxuries while she’s got you on the hook.

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Andrew... You are such a nice man but honestly... how can you write that list and STILL think there is something worth salvaging here? She is who she is... and who she is is completely incompatible with who you are. The story about her turning your $3 scone into a $175 shopping trip... WTF??? If I was basically living on someone else’s dime, I would NEVER do that...especially in the entitled way that she did. That you would put up with it is CRAZY to me. When I read your list, I only got past #2 and I thought... that would have been enough for me. Relationships are supposed to ADD something to your life... a warm body is not enough.

I don’t feel sorry for S at all and I don’t think you should either. She will land on her feet. I am pretty sure she will find a new guy pretty quickly after you. She Is looking for someone to finance her habits and take care of her responsibilities (you are doing both of these things) and it is only when she thinks you are looking towards the door that she puts ANY effort in at all...and even then, it is not much effort. I do, however, feel sorry for her kids because I think you have been a positive influence on them and maybe, just maybe, they have seen glimpses of another way they could live. BTW...I’ve worked with hoarders before...it is a disorder that is VERY hard to treat and for the hoarder to overcome. It has deep roots and the threat of losing a relationship is rarely, if ever, a good enough reason for them to change their ways. Sorry. I wish I could tell you something different. It is the reality. (((HUGS)))

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Kml gave you some good advice. The only thing I would stress is to keep the focus on you, your needs, what they are, what she says and does when you try to articulate them, how that makes you feel, etc.

Frankly, Andrew, I'd just walk in and say, well, now that we're in a safe place, S, I want you and your stuff out by x date. But that's me.

One should never have to give up family for a relationship. If that's expected, then there is something very, very off about that relationship, IMHO. Forget all the rest. That for me is a non-negotiable. Not merely siblings, but children. No. My son is first, foremost and anyone who doesn't like it doesn't have a place in my life.

Really, what I have personally learned from following along on this journey of yours is that I am better off alone than with the wrong one.


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I really do like the way what kml has posted, as well as bttrfly. I, too, realize that I am far better off being alone than w/the wrong person. I couldn't even begin to think of trying to make this work after 4.5 months.

Do not soft shoe your concerns. You need to state why you are unhappy and what is to be done about it. If she can't meet you at least half way between now and Christmas, then the new year would surely start out w/a bang and she would be given notice to move out.

Again, I do not see her changing. Leopards do not change their spots and this leopard is enjoying spending your money, having a roof over her head and just enjoying the life of luxury. This is not something new, this has been an ongoing trend w/her throughout her relationships and that's why she and the kids finally ended up in a crammed apartment.

Own your side of the street, but do not take up maintaining her side of the street any longer. You've been too kind and considerate of all and it's time for her to pull up her big girl panties and get cracking and getting stuff done. It doesn't make any sense that someone would leave food out and dirty dishes all over the place. That's an invitation to roaches, bugs and rodents.

Try to enjoy the rest of your weekend. BTW, your list looks good, but do add in kml's comments.


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Frankly, Andrew, I'd just walk in and say, well, now that we're in a safe place, S, I want you and your stuff out by x date. But that's me.


Definitely another valid approach. Or a combination of the two, like an exit interview at a job:

“S, I didn’t realize when I took you on that you are a hoarder with a shopping addiction, irresponsible with money and unlikely to earn a real income. I’m sorry but these are simply not the conditions that I want to live my life in. I think it’s best that you move out and you have until X date to do so. “

I know that sounds harsh but I agree with Deja - hoarders are notoriously resistant to treatment and it’s unlikely that her multiple issues - hoarding, shopaholic, uncleanliness, lack of truthfulness, lack of responsibility, lack of respect for your home and your time, are not likely ever going to really change. She might make a temporary attempt but she won’t be able to maintain it because she is so broken. This is not going to get any easier to do as time goes on. The idea of having her therapist there when you do this is a good idea.

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Also - heads up - there are good therapists and bad ones. S may be with this therapist precisely because she doesn’t challenge S’s world view - I doubt S would stick with someone who really challenged her to do the work.

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Btw I’m curious, that van full of stuff that she took to donate - did it come back empty? Did she dump it on her daughter? Or did she get rid of it but bring back other “finds” from the thrift store?

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Andrew,

If she can do a cross-stitch and leave it on your desk, then what the heck is wrong with her that she can't clean up and put the left over food away and do some dishes or even clean up? S has selective memory and is selective in what she wants to do and from what you've posted...it's not cleaning.

Gosh, what I see is that she is sitting on the dock of the lake. She senses that you are pulling away and swimming further and further away from her. She knows that the only way that she can reel you back in is to throw some bait your way. She's good at this manipulation game and if you think about it...every time you distance yourself and tell her things, she either throws a hissy, turns it around and makes you feel like it's you or then she comes back w/"things will get better". The pathway to heaven is paved w/good intentions. Her actions do not match her words.

As I have said twice now, she either needs to "sh*t or get off the pot". She can't stay on that pot forever and think that you are going to continue to cater to her, her clan and all of those animals. Winter is coming and you sure won't be able to air the house out like you can right now.

Andrew, there is no shame in admitting that this isn't working and advising her that she needs to go. I do agree w/kml, that she may very well not be challenged by this therapist. She's not going to stick w/anyone that would challenge her.


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Picking up on what both kml and job said, I agree about her therapist. Did I understand in your post correctly that this therapist is a friend of hers or in the same social circle? Or did I misunderstand/misread that? If I got it right, that screams huge red flag to me.

Your list is good, Andrew, but you’re still going to have to be firm. Personally, I would take butterfly’s approach and go in with a goodbye speech and a hard move out deadline.

You said it yourself, Andrew: you’ve lost your relationship with your siblings and your children. Is the “warmth” S provides along with all the chaos worth those losses?


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Originally Posted by kml
As for celiac versus gluten sensitive - anyone who gets sick from beer on your breath is either true gluten allergy or celiac.

Or making it up - or at least exaggerating things greatly.

As I look at all of this, I’m not sure our focus is correct or helpful anymore. It certainly was until Andrew admitted the truth of the situation. It’s clear all of the things being presented about S are at least somewhat accurate. Take the hoarding. She’s unlikely to see it, it’s very difficult to change and no one can fix it for her. Sadly I think much with Andrew is the same. We keep pointing out or at least reinforcing why this R should have ended months ago and for sure should end sooner than later. Andrew I think agrees. That’s not the problem. The problem as I see it is much like S - getting Andrew to change and do something about it. Just as Andrew sees the huge issues with S but can’t get her to do anything or change it, Andrew sees the huge issues but doesn’t know how to get out of it or is afraid to call it quits. That’s where the huge roadblock here is. From where I sit Andrew does not need to see S’s therapist with S to try to fix this, he needs to see his own T to figure out why he’d even let this happen in the first place and why he can’t seem to end it even after seeing very clearly for what it is. That’s where I see the help being needed. We can keep bringing up all of the items and issues but until Andrew is willing to do something about them, nothing is going to change.

I hate to be harsh but let’s just be honest here. Andrew expecting S to change is nearly the same as us expecting Andrew to change. Without some solid help and support I don’t see it happening. It’s very sad and a bit surreal to witness. A good C can give you the support and the tools you need to end this Andrew. That’s where I think the focus needs to go. Again, sadly, just like the hoarding can sometimes be stopped and the house cleaned, the next challenge is to keep it from happening all over again. Andrew, until you take it on yourself to say, I’m making some really bad choices here and allowing people to treat me far worse than I’d ever dream of treating them and I need to stop and change that, none of this is going to change. For the rest of us, we can keep pointing all of this with S out but I think it would be far more helpful to suggest how Andrew can find it within himself to change.

Sorry to talk about you in your own thread like your not here but it just seems crystal clear everyone sees this for what it is. Not what will be done about it?


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It made me really sad to read everything you have sacrificed for this woman who sacrifices nothing for you and takes advantage of your goodwill and money. Either she is very manipulative and selfish, or she needs some serious professional help.

I did not know a sacrifice you made was your brothers . That is so very sad. Did you mention this before?

You have given up so much for what? A stitch craft heart? That’s the crumb she has to throw your way?

You can go to the therapist and you can air your issues, and I absolutely thing they need to be discussed. But she isn t going to change who she fundamentally is.

You keep saying happiness is your own responsibility. I agree it is. So removing what is making you unhappy is the right move and your responsibility.
People often misinterpret happiness is your own responsibility. You don’t rely on someone else to be your reason for happiness, but people can absolutely bring situations to us that make us unhappy. And it is our responsibility to remove ourselves from what doesn’t serve us, or serves us detrimentally

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Originally Posted by kml
Btw I’m curious, that van full of stuff that she took to donate - did it come back empty? Did she dump it on her daughter? Or did she get rid of it but bring back other “finds” from the thrift store?
Still in the van. She said the donation place was closed. We are taking some donations to the animal sanctuary tomorrow. Old blankets and such.

Still following along. S is currently trying to be perfect partner and I am worried she's going to really throw her back out. She's overdoing it.

I do have some faith in this therapist. I will need to be clear and brutally honest. S has worked with her before and she has challenged S on her issues. We also did 3 group couples sessions late last winter so I have some experience with her.

The key issue is balancing compassion and optimism with what is best for Me. As someone who has a lifetime of minimizing my own needs this will be hard.


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What does Andrew want in a relationship? What percentage of that would you say your getting in this relationship?

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I’m not surprised the van is still full. After she arrived and they were closed (if they were) what kept her from going back the next day they were open? Either her ADD was such that she didn’t bother to check their hours or she just couldn’t face giving it all away (true hoarder behavior). I’m guessing the latter since if it was the first, she could easily have gone the next day and done it.

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The key issue is balancing compassion and optimism with what is best for Me. As someone who has a lifetime of minimizing my own needs this will be hard.


Compassion - you’ve given plenty of that. Perhaps too much when accountability would have been more appropriate. Compassion has also led you to misinterpret her as “plucky hardworking single mom” instead of “manipulative lazy hoarder “. You can still have compassion for whatever causes her to be so broken but that doesn’t mean YOU have to take responsibility for fixing what can’t be fixed.

Optimism - how’s that work in’ for ya? You were optimistic that she filled the van with things to donate - but didn’t follow through. Many times you’ve been optimistic about her making headway in sorting things - but seriously, how many months has it been? Are the dining and living room still clean from a Thanksgiving?

It’s not selfish to have healthy boundaries. This is your life we’re talking about here.

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(Btw Don I think the fact that Andrew is considering these things is proof that he’s digesting what we’ve been telling him. As I recall you aren’t exactly Johnny on the spot with taking advice either wink We all have to take things in on our own timetable.

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just had this thought and wanted to put it out there:

isn't it a classic sign of relationship abuse for the abuser to isolate his/her victim from friends, family and loved ones?

giving up your brothers = isolating you
giving up your children = isolating you
not allowing you to socialize as you normally would without her there to monitor what's being said (ex. friends, the cafe/scone place) = isolating you
surrounding you with S's brood = further isolating you, and convincing you that their way of living is the new 'normal'

Andrew, Don isn't wrong in suggesting you see your own therapist. We here can only be of so much help. The fact that this is a pattern (attracting domineering women) which has culminated in this level of dysfunction has presented you with a crisis point. This tells me it's an opportunity for you to really grow, with some professional guidance.

Andrew, remember this, if nothing else: everything you really want in life is on the other side of your fears.

xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
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Well, to be fair, I don’t think S deliberately isolated Andrew from his brothers and son - it’s more that Andrew enjoys spending time alone with them, they (at least his son) don’t enjoy socializing with her and her brood, and she (and her mess) [censored] up a lot of his time. Still, the end effect is the same. If Covid wasn’t here I think the hit to his social life would be more obvious.

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Originally Posted by kml
Well, to be fair, I don’t think S deliberately isolated Andrew from his brothers and son - it’s more that Andrew enjoys spending time alone with them, they (at least his son) don’t enjoy socializing with her and her brood, and she (and her mess) [censored] up a lot of his time. Still, the end effect is the same. If Covid wasn’t here I think the hit to his social life would be more obvious.

I'm not sure about that K ... perhaps not consciously, but she has certainly moved in, taken over and taken Andrew hostage. His son, his girls have no place IN THE HOME HE GREW UP IN (which to me is just anathema). I'm not trying to stoke the already blazing fire into an inferno, but man ... it's clear to me that she has at best NO boundaries, and it's her way or there's a steep price to pay via various manipulative techniques which always end up with her getting even more and Andrew getting even less.

Man, this broad should have been in sales. If she had it together, she'd have made a killing.


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But to be fair, she WANTS his son to come to family things - it’s his son who (understandably) doesn’t want to be part of the chaos.

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I will grant you that.


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A box full of darkness.
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Originally Posted by kml
(Btw Don I think the fact that Andrew is considering these things is proof that he’s digesting what we’ve been telling him.

I 100% think Andrew is digesting and agreeing with most of what we say. That's not my point. He agrees. He knows this is not a healthy R and if somehow a magic wand could just erase it all and no one would get hurt, he'd be fine with ending it. However, there is no such magic wand. My point is we here in DB land are often still focusing on showing how S is not a good fit and has lots of flaws where I think the focus needs to move on from that to, how can we help Andrew get out of this situation and just as importantly, not repeat it. He's not arguing with us - he agrees so he's clearly digesting most of it. Now, how can it be solved?

Originally Posted by kml
As I recall you aren’t exactly Johnny on the spot with taking advice either wink We all have to take things in on our own timetable.

LOL, not at all sure what this refers to as I've not asked for nor received any advice in a long, long time and even then it was pretty casual stuff - other than perhaps with my seperation, gulp, 15 years ago now? I've never been in a toxic situation like this and can assure you someone like S would never get more than a single date out of me - if that would even happen as I'm extremely picky on the front end and disqualify most of them before we even get on a date. With me, I often don't agree with the advice given - which is why I don't follow it. Again, I get the strong feeling, Andrew agrees with us. He just can't bring himself to consistently act on it and/or perhaps feel down to his bones that he truly does deserve more than what he is getting and it's not his job to save S and her family from her own dysfunctional craziness.

I think Andrew is firmly on the road and headed in the right direction. We just now need to figure out how to get more gas in his tank to get him across the finish line.


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a free mousepad for an edit button, sigh ---

I think it's important to note that people are complex - well, most people are complex. I'd like to move this to a place where we can call out the dysfunction for what it is, have (fierce) compassion, but also state clearly that taken off a moral issue, this isn't likely to work as the two principals are fundamentally incompatible.

this might make it easier for Andrew to do what he needs to do and say what he needs to say, by getting rid of any judgment/good vs bad, and just sticking to the facts. he wants to live one way, she another and there's very little room for overlap. plenty of people in relationship can't live together. plenty more find out that the relationship doesn't work when they do live together. cut the losses while the damage is still relatively minor.

does this make sense?


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also Don, I wholeheartedly agree that Andrew would benefit greatly for focusing solely on himself and his patterns in relationships. It's not only his way out of this morass but also a way to prevent repeating this in the future.

hope that puts a little more gas in the tank ...


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I did not know a sacrifice you made was your brothers. That is so very sad. Did you mention this before?


I missed this part of the story as well. Please elaborate!

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thoughts about my list and how to proceed in a positive - ie - non confrontational / blaming way in the therapy session would be appreciated.


- Loss of pride in my home
How could you possibly have pride in your home when it's very much disrespected by S and her family?

- Loss of so much that was important to me - family, pets
You gave up your pets and son for S and her clan to move in. I don't know the story with your brothers. Fortunately, your daughter is far enough away to be able to maintain the same relationship you had before S.

- Feeling like the whole burden is on me and "dancing as fast as I can" just to get less than the minimum done
Communication issue. I know you prefer to not "rock the boat" and just do it yourself. You've tried the chore chart, but I think more effort in enforcing the chart from BOTH of you would have helped. I know you're not their father, but you are the man of the house and you should be able to enforce home rules.

- Feeling like my voice isn't heard and doesn't matter
Another communication issue.

- No longer having my own relationship with my own children - S requires to be involved in gifts, cards etc
You don't have to let her be involved in gifts/cards/etc. She can't "require" it. You can do your own thing with your own children. This one is on you - probably due to not wanting to rock the boat again...

- No time for me or my own interests
Well, this is tough when you're taking care of an entire home full of people who don't take responsibility for their roles/things. You need to prioritize yourself and delegate tasks to others. and there needs to be consequences if tasks are incomplete or poorly completed.

- Poorer health and worse diet
Meal planning and making time for exercise would be beneficial.

- Lack of exercise
Exercise/health needs to be a priority. You don't need someone to exercise with you in order for you to take care of yourself.

- Money issues - it was expected that there would be no negative financial impact
Poor assumption on your part... or perhaps communication issue as you don't really know much about S's finances. This should have been ironed out prior to her moving in. But since it wasn't, you 2 need to get on the same page with the budget. It's strange to me that she's over-spending when she is used to not having money.

- Feeling that this is a very "dark" environment. Dirt clutter and actual darkness - S doesn't like bright sunshine
That explains why she never wants to go for a walk and sleeps until mid-day and stays up late in the dark night. Did you know this about her before she moved in?

- The lack of reciprocity - what "does" S bring to the relationship?
Something only YOU can answer... I'm not sure besides chaos and filth.

- Little overlap of time together and loss of most of the day with her being asleep while the world is shining and spinning out there
So what "does" she bring to the relationship?

- Living with a hoarder is hard
Especially one who doesn't think she has a problem with hoarding.

- Dirt, stink, no ownership / being accountable for dealing with stuff - passed on to D26 or boys and picked up by me
Goes back to, what does S bring to the relationship?

- Dramatic decrease in living conditions
This is sad and goes along with the loss of pride.

- Feeling taken for granted in many ways. A good example is when suddenly her entire family started coming every Sunday for me to make them dinner - a tradition they never had.
So why are you in this relationship?? frown

Would you consider staying together if S moves out? I think that's the best chance for your relationship to work out. It's not uncommon for couples to be together for many years and not live together.

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Policeman at the door this evening. S's father died sometime last night and was found this morning.

I'm calling a time-out. She's doing ok all things considered. The kids, especially S18 are pretty broken up. D26 is here now.

I only met her Dad a few times. Decent widower who was very proud of his neat as a new pin house and told the same 5 stories over and over.


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Oh no! Well at least they all just saw him on Thanksgiving. That’s a blessing.

Does she have siblings?

kml #2906136 10/19/20 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kml
Oh no! Well at least they all just saw him on Thanksgiving. That’s a blessing.

Does she have siblings?
One brother in British Columbia who will be a problem. He's the one who was sent off to foster care. S is the executor but when she called him the demands had already begun. It's going to be difficult. There's a modest estate and I don't think the will is at all clear. I'm staying out of it.

At Thanksgiving S's S22(?) was also called in Australia and so they had a video chat.

D26 has shown up and is largely taking over caring for her Mom and making sure stuff happens. Her usual role. They're planning on going down to the city tomorrow and start dealing with stuff. I expect a "lot" more stuff will be showing up here - presumably once the estate is settled.

I expect that we'll still be doing our couples counseling next week but everything is up in the air right now. The important thing is to ensure that she feels safe during this difficult time.


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That is very sad news.

(((Hugs)))

I’m sure S and her kids enjoyed Thanksgiving super and visiting with him.

Andrew, S will need some guidance and support over the next while - it’s ok to help.

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And the flip side is - she will hopefully inherit enough that she will be able to afford to move into an apartment.

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very sad news indeed, but you provided them with what sounds like a vey happy final memory with that thanksgiving celebration.


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That is sad news indeed and obviously a time out is needed now. You can’t kick her while she’s down.

Dream had an interesting suggestion regarding living apart. Would you consider that?

More importantly, would S?

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Less than a week on this thread - wow. Just wow. So much support - it's greatly appreciated. I'm going to let this burn through.

Originally Posted by dream
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I did not know a sacrifice you made was your brothers. That is so very sad. Did you mention this before?
I missed this part of the story as well. Please elaborate!
Not much to elaborate on. My brothers and I - all of whom live locally - didn't have a lot to do with each other when I was married. It bothered me but there never seemed to be "time" and if I wanted to point fingers, most normal family events involved my in-laws. My brothers as well never made any effort to reach out to me either. Not that we had issues or anything, just busy people with active lives. We've never been an "all gather around" sort of family unlike many. The sense of "family" or perhaps more accurately "clan" is pretty substantial though as undoubtedly my ex found out after she cheated as I have a "lot" of relatives and I'm sure that the walls went up quick and the fingers got pointing.

After bomb-day, my brothers rallied around as did their wives. Around the time I started dating S I had a massive falling out with one of my sister-in-laws that probably will never be mended and then my own time was consumed again being involved in the day to day and finding time to spend with my brothers and their family is gone again.

I don't think it's a deliberate program of isolation any more than it was during my marriage, just that I am allowing my own self to be minimized.
Originally Posted by dream
Would you consider staying together if S moves out? I think that's the best chance for your relationship to work out. It's not uncommon for couples to be together for many years and not live together.
No. While I am ok with having an amicable relationship with an ex-partner and perhaps would be happy having a "living apart together" relationship eventually, that is off the table with her and I can't see it being something she would be interested in either. She's very much attached to the concept of having a "partner / husband" I would think. And having someone that takes care of everything to be frank.

Originally Posted by kml
And the flip side is - she will hopefully inherit enough that she will be able to afford to move into an apartment.
One of the things that bothered me a bit when we were first dating was that S - perhaps to reassure me that she wouldn't be a financial burden - did talk about her Dad's passing and her getting a substantial legacy from that. Not independently wealthy legacy, but certainly something that could allow her to be financially independent through to 65 when other social programs would kick in. I checked the real-estate listings in that area and houses go for about 3 times what they do here so even if she had to split it 50-50 with her brother there should be lots left over. Her parents were very good with money and to the best of my knowledge there's no outstanding debts. Her Dad had even just bought himself a new car which perhaps is still on it's first tank of gas and it's probably paid for.

Perhaps that's just me and my own upbringing. My own parents essentially left no estate and none of us expected anything. Yes, my youngest brother did buy the family farm for cheap prior to their passing, but he was the one who wanted it. But the concept that you are hovering like a vulture over the still warm and still moving loved one waiting for your piece is something that bothers me a lot. My ex-wife's family was all about that too with her Dad especially playing one kid off against the other on who will get what.

The core issues remain - the mechanics have perhaps shifted. Once the estate is sorted out - which will probably take some time - S will have the means to be independent, able to afford a storage locker or three for however much stuff she wants to keep. I may suggest that she get one locally to her Dad's house rather than trying to stuff everything in here. Her brother has stated (again long before now) that he just wants everything put up for auction including the heirlooms and get his cash.

S is off sometime today with D26 and I believe that D19 may also be showing up to head down and start dealing with things. She said she'll possibly be gone for a couple of days. I did offer to come along if she wanted me but also said that I was ok with keeping the home fires going as it were. The reality is that I have no place in this matter other than to provide emotional support and perhaps practical for S - which her daughters will be more capable of.

A nice person on another forum who happens to have ADD gave me some links to some resources and also some thoughts on how they as an adult managed their own ADD. A lot of the things that bother me resonated clearly. An imposed artificial structure worked well for them and S has been told to do similar things by her own therapist but the attempts all petered out. I have some more reading to do.

One of my key relationship flaws I think is not at all that I have a "need" to have someone in my life, nor I think that I wasn't healed after my marriage, it's my belief that I can make pretty much anything work. I'm easy-going, I like to think easy to live with, and don't believe in soul mates nor perfect matches. That's one of the reasons I feel that my marriage lasted so long. I can easily see living perfectly happily with a number of personality types and there was nothing unique or special about S that causes her to be "the one". She just happened to be "a" one who was attracted to me (a requirement) who appeared to have a kind heart and had her baggage all sorted. Man-o-man was I wrong about #3.

Second last day of vacation - put in a couple of hours of work this morning getting caught up. S started making turkey stock yesterday - I'll finish it up. No clue when she's on her way out - still in bed. I'm trying to decide if I'll pick up some beer for my bachelor evening - maybe.


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I am so sorry to read that S's father has passed away. One thing for sure, there are some good memories to keep close to the heart for her and the children as he did come and spend Thanksgiving w/all of you. There is going to be a lot of work to get everything done at her father's place and yes, even dealing w/her family concerning the estate as well as the funeral. It's not going to be easy.

Maybe she'll opt to move into her father's home if it's big enough. I can't even imagine bringing home more stuff, but I'm sure it's going to take some time to sift through all of that stuff and determine what is tossed, donated and kept.

You are wise to stay on the sidelines because it just might get ugly.


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I think it's wise to suggest she get a storage locker near the house. Definitely don't let her start dragging a bunch of stuff back to your house. And she definitely shouldn't start living there - nothing would drag down the resale value of that house faster than her trashing it by living there. They should get it on the market while it's still pristine and clean from him living there.

If the will is written as a 50:50 split between siblings she should be very careful (who am I kidding you should tell her DAUGHTER to be very careful!) to record everything and catalogue everything. Odds are the brother won't actually know what most of the "heirlooms" are,so the everyday stuff that S wants is probably fair game (wouldn't bring much in a sale anyway). Bigger, better documented items may be a bone of contention. Tell them to get more copies of the death certificate than they think they will need - I believe I got 6 and it was just barely enough. She also should carefully document all her expenses as executor (like hiring a gardener or cleaning service to keep the house looking good while it's on the market etc.) as her brother sounds like he will be a pain. (Also, though, bear in mind that the brother knows who he is dealing with and therefore may have some very legitimate concerns that S may lie to him, cheat him out of something, or just be very ineffectual at taking care of the estate).

I know your instinct is a hands-off approach but it might serve you to either helo her organize the paperwork around this or help her daughter do so.

An appraiser of some kind may be worthwhile as the brother will probably claim the furnishings have more worth than they really have -- so having an appraisal in hand as to the resale value of things can save a lot of issues.

She should follow the will - her natural instinct might be to cheat but what that might cost her in legal costs and aggravation isn't worth it.

Also - it's not under your control but expect her to do dumb things with the money when she gets it. After all, she's a shopaholic - only now she could afford to shop in fancier places. If you can, convince her to pay off her debts first, and maybe put the rest in some kind of safe investment that she can't easily touch the principle (or, if you've bitten the bullet and told her to move, put it into an inexpensive house or condo - sounds like her half of his house would buy her that).

People who are bad with money usually think a windfall will go further than it really does. (For instance, a million dollars invested for a lifetime income only really safely generates $40,000 a year but most people would think they were rich and could go out and live it up if they won a million dollars. )

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Oh - and I'm with you on the whole waiting for an inheritance thing. Nobody in my family ever had much to pass down anyway, and I was actually surprised that my mother had anything to leave as I had expected she would spend the last of her savings on end-of-life care, but her sudden death meant there was about $100k to divide between 4 siblings - enough for everybody to get a nice little dollop but not enough for anybody to fight over. I'm grateful that there was no drama in my family over all this. Certainly nobody in my family ever lived their lives in anticipation of a windfall - I think it is often harmful to the children. I saw that in a lot of trust fund babies in the neighborhood I used to live in.

Have they seen the will yet? If not, it's also possible that there will be surprises in it. (I could, for instance, see her father bypassing her and giving the inheritance to her kids if he thought she would be foolish with the money).

Again, I think the best outcome FOR YOU is to help them get things sorted in the best possible way so that drama is minimized.

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perhaps she could buy out her brother and move into her dad's place,

wishful thinking on my part.


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I'm so sorry, Andrew. I know losing someone unexpectedly is hard enough without all of the other stuff that you have going on, so I feel for you. I think a time out is absolutely the way to go. Just remember to take care of yourself in all of this. (((Andrew)))

I'm really sorry for S and her kids too. It's all very sad.


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Originally Posted by bttrfly
perhaps she could buy out her brother and move into her dad's place,

wishful thinking on my part.
Funny you should mention this bttrfly - they were talking that there is no rush to sell the house and it may be something that is hanging around and available until everything gets settled which may be a year. S has a substantial support circle in that city and when we were dating had mentioned that she had been thinking of moving there.

They all just left after taking much of the day to pack, hug, cry and make a mess smile S, all 4 of her kids that are here (1 is in Australia), her son-in-law, grandson, and D19's BF and 3 dogs are all headed off to go to the ancestral home. Nobody seemed surprised that I stayed behind and as I told her - this is an "S" family thing - I only met her Dad a couple of times. It took about 2 1/2 hours for them to organize themselves - glad I was only an observer.

S commented that she's excited about the fact that her dog will be allowed on the couch.

I'm left here alone with the bunnies who will have a much cleaner hutch soon, the cats who won't care as long as they get fed and a feeling of space and elbow room. The hamster is with S13's Dad. I hope to get some cleaning done and at least some of the plaster work in the front bedroom. I'm still on vacation tomorrow too.

There was - rather to my annoyance - talk by S about dividing stuff up without letting her brother know.

I did pass on kml's - as always excellent suggestion - that they take pictures of everything as an inventory, track expenses as "something I read" - which is absolutely true. S's brother had already suggested multiple copies of the death certificate.

S herself did up the will for her Dad and is the executor. It wasn't done by a lawyer although it was witnessed and notarized. I expect that this will be a problem. There was some talk that the insurance money will be paid out fairly quickly and that that will cover the expenses of running the house for the next while.

S packed enough food for a week plus a lot of random stuff. For perspective though, she actually would pack more stuff to come here for a few days - lots of clothes, craft projects, books, her aura reading equipment etc.

I expect that they will be staying at her Dad's house for at least a couple of days, maybe up to a week. I also expect that over the next few months that she'll start splitting her time between here and there as she sorts out the stuff and the estate.

Well - might as well start a new thread. The road has shifted - yet again. Stay tuned. I have a cold beer on hand - and it tastes really really good.

Might make liver and onions for dinner. Haven't had that for a while. S packed up lots of the convenience food to take with her.

And now another special feature
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2906212&#Post2906212


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