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Part 1 is found here:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2905366&page=1

Thanks to all who have contributed so far, your opinions have been helpful! Especially those who challenged me from the very beginning like Steve, Rose, and Vapo.

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The medical evidence is that women's sex drive generally does decrease after menopause - but obviously there will be individual variation


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Originally Posted by LBH2018
The medical evidence is that women's sex drive generally does decrease after menopause - but obviously there will be individual variation


Yes. But what I found to be surprising is now much women's sex drive ramps up when she is single. This comes mostly from friends of mine who liked being single past age 50.

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I am only 40. But I don’t think it’s singledom that ramps up a woman’s sex drive.

It’s who she is with. How that person treats her out of the bedroom.

Get in touch with a woman emotionally, and you will get in touch with her physically

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I one hundred per cent agree with Ginger. I’m 52. My sex drive is very much dependent on my partner and how he treats me.

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I'm with Ginger. My last four GFs had high sex drives with me. After 3yrs, my ex-GF and I had sex 2-3x/day (when we lived together, and then on days we saw each other). I blame romance and foreplay and, but most importantly imho, feeling safe expressing what we each liked and didn't.

My first two GFs had low sex drives. Maybe I was inexperienced, or had a poor partner-picker then!

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I don't disagree with any of you! But this conversation has gotten off track if I might say so ... the issue at hand was whether during the dating process the intensity and level of sex is unrealistic, and that, especially for men, they mistake the sex for love, thereby driving bad decisions for second marriages and explaining why the second marriage failure rate is so high (60-70% per Steve85), because the amount of sex inevitably falls, especially after remarriage.

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Hi Tom_H,

I politely disagree with the premise, "because the amount of sex inevitably falls, especially after remarriage." My ex-GF was married longer than I was, for 25 years, and the sex never dropped off. A fall-off isn't inevitable. Like any other dating compatibility area--don't pretend to like what you don't. wink

Originally Posted by "Dr. Gail Saltz"
When couples stop having sex, their relationships become vulnerable to anger, detachment, infidelity and, ultimately, divorce. If your sex drives are out of balance, your aim is to meet in the middle, having sex a bit more than one partner likes, but probably a bit less than the other likes.

As preferences change--with medical conditions, hormonal shifts, crime, and age.. communication and compromise are solid plans. "I can't for a few days because I have a yeast infection." is hard to say but easier to deal with than having multiple plans for a romantic evening inexplicably rejected. A partner who stopped having sex regularly for a year+ and wouldn't talk about or work on that would be a deal-breaker.

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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Hi Tom_H,

I politely disagree with the premise, "because the amount of sex inevitably falls, especially after remarriage." My ex-GF was married longer than I was, for 25 years, and the sex never dropped off. A fall-off isn't inevitable. Like any other dating compatibility area--don't pretend to like what you don't. wink

Originally Posted by "Dr. Gail Saltz"
When couples stop having sex, their relationships become vulnerable to anger, detachment, infidelity and, ultimately, divorce. If your sex drives are out of balance, your aim is to meet in the middle, having sex a bit more than one partner likes, but probably a bit less than the other likes.

As preferences change--with medical conditions, hormonal shifts, crime, and age.. communication and compromise are solid plans. "I can't for a few days because I have a yeast infection." is hard to say but easier to deal with than having multiple plans for a romantic evening inexplicably rejected. A partner who stopped having sex regularly for a year+ and wouldn't talk about or work on that would be a deal-breaker.


Thanks CWarrior, just know that such wasn't my conclusion. I was merely asking for feedback. And the less important assumption is the amount of sex; the more important one is that men, when on the rebound, will MISTAKE an intense sexual relationship, pre-second-marriage, for love. Then, once married, they learn otherwise. They find out that, absent an intense sexual relationship there is not much that feels like love, and if they haven't fixed themselves first they find themselves divorcing again.

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Originally Posted by Ginger1
It’s who she is with. How that person treats her out of the bedroom.

Get in touch with a woman emotionally, and you will get in touch with her physically

I understand and agree with you. And, believe it or not, I bought MIchele's "Sexless marriage" book and will read it after I finish both DR and DB books. I too lived with a woman for over 30 years who was mostly avoiding sex, and was so afraid of it after the first 10 years that she missed out on so much intimacy and romance because she was always afraid it would lead to sex.

But is Michele's conclusion that simple, that if only a husband was in touch with his wife emotionally, then everyone would be happy and satisfied? I'm not sure that's the case. Something to explore, certainly.

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Originally Posted by Steve85
From the reading I've done, for a lot of women, 45+ is when their sexual desire really kicks into overdrive. I've read about mothers who couldn't stand to be around their son's friends because they were so sexually attracted to them.

Steve, I think you mean here that a woman's sexual desirability ratchets up, because if you meant what you exactly said there would no doubt be lots of angry husbands and parents of teen boys.

Originally Posted by Steve85
I've read here that for some women around 50, they get into pornography and it is electric to them! (I saw one source claim the fastest growing segment of porn addiction was late young adult and midlife aged women.
In today's world, I suppose I am not surprised.

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Can I get a perspective on one thing my STBXW did? After 32 years of marriage, as I described in the initial post, she walked out. Classic WAW syndrome. Gone.

She sent me one hand-written letter the day after I was served, explaining things, but it was a rambling letter and actually confused matters, because in one part she said she needed to divorce me but in the other part she said "we need to do this for now" which I assumed meant that our marriage still had hope.

We met twice during the next 2.5 weeks. Then, she cut off all contact and basically refused to talk about anything directly, using her attorney instead.

Would some of you have a perspective why she would cut off even talking? Was that her attorney, saying "he might use anything you say against you in front of the judge"? Was she just trying to put distance between us? Was she afraid that if she talked to me, she would lose the will to move ahead with the divorce?

Anyway, given that there are both WAWs and LBSs on this forum, I could use perspective or your own personal experience. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by tom_h
in their case their sex drive goes into hyperdrive in order to snare a man, even past age 50 or 60. Once the vows are taken, however, life returns to normal, and the fellow wonders why she doesn't love him as much anymore. Because a woman's natural state, especially past children and age 40, is not a sex drive in hyperdrive. I've only heard this from others; is it true to an extent, or a stereotype?
I believe there is a lot more to it than that. I believe a mans behavior changes. He does not realize what was turning the woman on. In my case, if I see a decrease, I focus my own behavior, especially in these areas: Romance, Attraction, and Seduction.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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I didn't even get a letter. The one time I got involved in an R talk, I said something like "this all seems so easy for you." She said something like "it's really hard for both of us." We rarely talked about anything other than the kids after that. I'm sure it's a difficult decision for a WAS, but they are convinced they are doing the right thing. No contact just makes it easier for them to deal with what they are doing. So, I think it's less about the attorney and more to help them move forward with their decision.

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Originally Posted by tom_h
Would some of you have a perspective why she would cut off even talking?
She decided she does not want to talk to you.

Take a look at your past behavior and the way you interacted with her. Has it changed? Should it change?

If she decides to talk to you in the future, will she feel safe? Will she enjoy the conversation? Wil she want to do it again in the future?




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Originally Posted by tom_h
She sent me one hand-written letter the day after I was served, explaining things, but it was a rambling letter and actually confused matters, because in one part she said she needed to divorce me but in the other part she said "we need to do this for now" which I assumed meant that our marriage still had hope.

Hi Tom, look at her actions, she served you with divorce papers. When I left my ex-wife, I also said "for now". It softened the blow to her of leaving after 10yrs and made her more cooperative.

Originally Posted by tom_h
Was that her attorney, saying "he might use anything you say against you in front of the judge"?

I doubt it. Never had an attorney tell me this, nor did my ex-wife or any girlfriend previously divorced. They did instruct me not to discuss divorce matters with her such as financials, custody, etc.

Originally Posted by tom_h
We met twice during the next 2.5 weeks. Then, she cut off all contact and basically refused to talk about anything directly, using her attorney instead.

Maybe cutting contact makes it easier for her to heal and move on? Maybe she didn't enjoy those two meetings? These are common reasons. I'm not her, though, so they're just guesses.

Originally Posted by tom_h
Was she afraid that if she talked to me, she would lose the will to move ahead with the divorce?

After finding the strength to stay until the kids were in college and then leave--I doubt she views herself as weak in any way, shape, or form. BD1 was when the sex ended. She said she didn't enjoy being talked over, not helping out in the home, and general grumpiness. (You have a list of complaints, too. Most failed marriages are a two-person job!) She stayed another 10yrs. That doesn't sound weak. She's probably not trying to hurt you, she's probably not evil, she's probably just trying to find her happy.

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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by tom_h
Would some of you have a perspective why she would cut off even talking?
She decided she does not want to talk to you.

Take a look at your past behavior and the way you interacted with her. Has it changed? Should it change?

If she decides to talk to you in the future, will she feel safe? Will she enjoy the conversation? Wil she want to do it again in the future?

R2C, thank you, I can always count on you for an unvarnished perspective. Thanks! Yet, perhaps I'm too emotional about it, I would still like to hear from others, especially former WAWs, who might provide some thoughts.

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Originally Posted by harvey
I didn't even get a letter. The one time I got involved in an R talk, I said something like "this all seems so easy for you." She said something like "it's really hard for both of us." We rarely talked about anything other than the kids after that. I'm sure it's a difficult decision for a WAS, but they are convinced they are doing the right thing. No contact just makes it easier for them to deal with what they are doing. So, I think it's less about the attorney and more to help them move forward with their decision.

Harvey, I think you might be mostly correct here. She had a lot of friends coaching her, I found out later, and no doubt they all told her she needed a few months to get over her own hurt and then she would find she could do quite well without me, thank you.

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Originally Posted by CWarrior

Originally Posted by tom_h
Was she afraid that if she talked to me, she would lose the will to move ahead with the divorce?

After finding the strength to stay until the kids were in college and then leave--I doubt she views herself as weak in any way, shape, or form. BD1 was when the sex ended. She said she didn't enjoy being talked over, not helping out in the home, and general grumpiness. (You have a list of complaints, too. Most failed marriages are a two-person job!) She stayed another 10yrs. That doesn't sound weak. She's probably not trying to hurt you, she's probably not evil, she's probably just trying to find her happy.

CWarrior, thanks for this. But then perhaps the rest of you can help me get a perspective on her based on the other actions she took within the first month.

I was not working when BD day came, because I had been fighting off some lawsuits (this was part of the household stress, no income combined with lawyer bills). And when she walked out she took the best car, transferred nearly all of the working cash we had in the bank, and had secretly filed taxes on her own so she got the full tax refund within the month. I was in the house, but couldn't write a check for more than a few dollars!

One month to the day after she served me, I received a nasty letter from her attorney threatening me with a restraining order because of my "violent" tendencies. This was a flat-out lie, but the context was she wanted me to move out and then we would proceed with an immediate sale of the house (the only one my kids had ever known, by the way). She knew I had no money to get a lawyer and fight her. My STBXW was always the sweetest woman ever, but somehow in this process the coaching she got, from other divorcees and her attorney, convinced her to do this because now it was war.

The letter almost put me in the ER. I had chest tightness, night sweats, insomnia (couldn't sleep more than an hour at a time) and other related physical reactions to it. I had never raised my voice once to her in 30 years! I had never called her a name or raised a hand in anger, either. In fact, she had done more violence to me, during that final year (when all she could think about was ending the marriage) she had twice thrown the TV remote at me, once hitting me in the cheek and once missing me entirely.

I succeeded at thwarting her wishes by borrowing some assets, getting an attorney, and finally getting some backbone back. But the echoes of what she tried still hurt to this day.

Perspective, anyone?

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You keep posting variations on this question, and it's not something the board can help you with. You are essentially asking the board to read your ex-wife's mind, and mindreading is A) very often wrong and B) unhealthy.

You might want to research "ambiguous loss" and look for resources to help as you try to create closure.

What are you doing to create a happy, healthy life for yourself?


Me: 44
H: 44
Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10
Together/Married: 22 years
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Originally Posted by Rose888
You keep posting variations on this question, and it's not something the board can help you with. You are essentially asking the board to read your ex-wife's mind, and mindreading is A) very often wrong and B) unhealthy.

You might want to research "ambiguous loss" and look for resources to help as you try to create closure.

What are you doing to create a happy, healthy life for yourself?

Rose, as I've now been on this forum for 2 months, I've come to the realization that, for me at least, the healing process involves understanding through dialogue, not forgetting or burying things.

I'm not asking for mindreading, if you carefully read my words. I'm asking for other WAWs or LBSes to relate their experience. Of course, it's their experience not mine, but still ... want me to fully heal? Let me settle my heart. Let me ponder others' words. I happen to be a thinker and can't just tell myself, "turn off the brooding!" I just don't work that way, perhaps the way you do.

And if my ex ever DOES talk, I'll relate that here as well.

Rest assured that I am doing quite well now. My weight is down, I'm ensuring that my appearance is always good. I have a new job and am busting my butt to do well, and I'm doing well. I've been connecting with my son, who is the only one of my three kids living with me. I am also growing my social life, although technically that's not an improvement since BD day but an improvement since Covid lockdowns began.

But once again, thanks for being your usual contrarian self!

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Tom,

Sometimes I wish my wife would be angry, at least that is an emotion, anger means sometimes that the spouse wants to punish you for hurting them to make you feel something. That's a good chance to validate, validate, validate, then the guilt of punishing you may stop it.

My wife feels nothing for me, indifference, no guilt, no shame, no tears, doesn't care that its hurting the kids, she lives with us but is never home, its like she is not even the same person. Like she died and some other woman replaced her that is selfish and emotionless to me or the children she loved like 2 months ago....

It [censored] that your dealing with all that crap, the anger, the atty war. Maybe that anger can subside after some time. I feel like the moment I tell my stbxw that I wont watch the kids every single nite so she can spend it with OM she will get that way. She has threatened me and said "things will get a lot different now." She is only the way she is since I am not fighting this D or trying to hold back her single life dreams. I figured if I just sit back and take care of the kids the more time she spends with OM the sooner it will fizzle out / the honeymoon phase ends and reality can take hold. If I fight that makes her A excting to run to. But Ill admit it doesn't help me feel any better when she tells me "stay strong your a good man, im sorry" either way this still [censored].. I never wanted my kids to have a step-dad, Im actually a good father.


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K: D5, S7
BD: 9/1/20
WW continues to break up and recon with OM.
I paid last fees and pushed the D 5/3/2021
Default Dissolution granted 8/5/21.
Glad my D was not busted.
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Yes, you are asking for others to share their experiences, but how do you think that will help you? How will that help you settle your heart?

I'm not suggesting you bury or forget things. I'm suggesting that you will likely never know what was going through your ex-wife's mind, or why she did and said the things she did and said. Rather than pursue knowledge you are unlikely to ever get, learn to make peace with not knowing.

As a former brooder, I will tell you that one of the main benefits of the counseling I went to as a result of my Bomb Drop was learning that I could, in fact, teach myself to stop brooding. It's still a struggle some times, but being able to turn off the brooding benefits all areas of my life.


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Originally Posted by Steve_
Tom,

Sometimes I wish my wife would be angry, at least that is an emotion, anger means sometimes that the spouse wants to punish you for hurting them to make you feel something. That's a good chance to validate, validate, validate, then the guilt of punishing you may stop it.

My wife feels nothing for me, indifference, no guilt, no shame, no tears, doesn't care that its hurting the kids, she lives with us but is never home, its like she is not even the same person. Like she died and some other woman replaced her that is selfish and emotionless to me or the children she loved like 2 months ago....

It [censored] that your dealing with all that crap, the anger, the atty war. Maybe that anger can subside after some time. I feel like the moment I tell my stbxw that I wont watch the kids every single nite so she can spend it with OM she will get that way. She has threatened me and said "things will get a lot different now." She is only the way she is since I am not fighting this D or trying to hold back her single life dreams. I figured if I just sit back and take care of the kids the more time she spends with OM the sooner it will fizzle out / the honeymoon phase ends and reality can take hold. If I fight that makes her A excting to run to. But Ill admit it doesn't help me feel any better when she tells me "stay strong your a good man, im sorry" either way this still [censored].. I never wanted my kids to have a step-dad, Im actually a good father.

Steve, I will be easier on you than some of the others here, because sometimes the veterans don't want to just sympathize with the agony of we LBHs, they just want us to move on! I don't blame them, but I'll give you some sympathy myself.

The hardest part for me was a little different. Mine just walked out and filed, and while I was thoroughly and completely shocked, what I needed was to talk with her. I begged her. Please, let's at least just talk. Sure, complain to me. Call me a bastard. I'll listen. I just wanted to talk.

But she administered the ultimate torture. She refused to talk. We had two business meetings, about bills, in that first 2.5 weeks, and that was it. Then the hand grenade, the accusation that I was violent and the threat of a restraining order. It still hurts for me to think about it. There are several songs I heard around that time, and each time I hear them now I experience the same physical response as I did back then.

After time here on DB, I think I now believe that she eventually will talk. It might take years, but eventually she will. I'm over that desperate, panicked need to hear her out. I still wonder, every day, though. A good friend of mine went through the same thing, about 10 years ago. He is now happily married to another woman, a lovely gal. But -- he's sensitive like me, he's an artist type -- he says the pain of his lost family, and the divorce, hurts every day. Every day.

Heed the advice of those here on DB who tell you to do the three essentials: GAL, create distance, and do your 180s. Either it works and she comes back, or it doesn't -- and you're now ready for the rest of your life.

Do not be an enabler of her wayward life. Just be matter-of-fact about it. Remember that there is a good chance the OM is using her, too, so he will tire of her and maybe she will learn an eternal life lesson. Imagine you were in his shoes. An attractive woman, still married, hot to trot, but she says he can't pick her up cause she's still living with her legal husband -- the OM is only interested in a good time! It can't be serious for him. So one possibility is that after some amount of time, and after feeling used like a rag doll, she comes back to you.

I can't help but also think that now is the time to heed the NMMNG advice. We nice, sensitive and sweet men suffer from this syndrome. It doesn't mean become an a--hole, but it does mean to begin asserting ourselves. In fact, that might be what attracted her to the OM, because she likes a more dominant man, even if it's only one who will in the end use her. Remember, one of SandiB's maxims is "don't expect logic" from the WW, for the time being. She is living for the day, and living for the pleasure. That can't last forever.

So, my friend, trudge ahead. Take one step at a time. Try not to mope.

And always reach out to me if you want some sympathy. I'm here.

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Originally Posted by Steve_
Tom,
My wife feels nothing for me, indifference, no guilt, no shame, no tears, doesn't care that its hurting the kids, she lives with us but is never home, its like she is not even the same person. Like she died and some other woman replaced her that is selfish and emotionless to me or the children she loved like 2 months ago....

Steve, this will pass. Based on what I've read here, she will not be like that permanently. It takes patience, that we often find it hard to be patient. She is numb. That's the only way she can suppress the fact that what she is doing is wrong. That is exactly how my STBXW was when she walked out. The numbness will go away.

Originally Posted by Steve_
I feel like the moment I tell my stbxw that I wont watch the kids every single nite so she can spend it with OM she will get that way.

This is a very real concern. In fact, I think you should begin this discussion with her. Tell her that you are trying to blossom, like she is, and that the two of you should share babysitting costs when you're both out. Don't threaten, don't tell her you're trolling for chicks, just say it's been two months and I'm not going to be tied to home anymore. See how she responds. If she ignores you, then just do it anyway. If her practice is to leave at 6 pm to see the boyfriend, then you just leave at 5:30 without telling her. Leave her a note on the kitchen saying, "the kids are yours tonight! Sorry, but I need some freedom!" You can even "sweeten" your actions by leaving a hot dinner that you purchased from the store on the table. So she can hardly conclude "what an [censored]" if you had dinner for them to eat.

Originally Posted by Steve_
She is only the way she is since I am not fighting this D or trying to hold back her single life dreams.
Yes. She is behaving very immaturely. She knows it deep down but is in denial because the OM and the intense sex they are no doubt having is just too much fun. Do what I said above, stop imagining herself with the other dude but just start getting out yourself.

Originally Posted by Steve_
I figured if I just sit back and take care of the kids the more time she spends with OM the sooner it will fizzle out / the honeymoon phase ends and reality can take hold.
Yes, as I said in my prior reply, this will end. 2 months seems like eternity but in the end it isn't very long. And just because she says she wants to look into getting back together, you need to be very circumspect. She has lots of "splainin" to do. Resuming things should not be automatic.

Originally Posted by Steve_
But Ill admit it doesn't help me feel any better when she tells me "stay strong your a good man, im sorry" either way this still [censored]
I think that is false flattery. A way to keep you at home providing her with free babysitting. GAL and start going out. Lose weight. Buy some weights and start using them a couple of times a day in the garage or basement. Buy some tight muscle shirts.

FYI, I had already been on a weight loss regimen when my ex walked out, but I lost another 10 pounds, so I was at 195 lbs on a 6' frame. Not my high school weight but no more protruding belly. I bought some black pants (the black stretchy denim ones at Costco) and some black t-shirts that Costco calls 32 deg cool. For the first time in my life, this tech guy looked kind of cool in all black.

All of a sudden, women of all ages were looking at me (I'm late 50s with salt and pepper hair). Went to a dance bar with some friends, and some much younger gal pulled me to her to dance with her. That didn't happen when I was in my 20s.

Do it! It will do wonders for your self-confidence.

Originally Posted by Steve_
I never wanted my kids to have a step-dad, Im actually a good father.
Don't let this torment you. It is out of your control for now whether they have a 2nd "dad" someday.

Your kids will always, ALWAYS, know the difference between their loving dad and a step-dad. But you will be a better Dad if you get out of your doldrums, as soon as possible. They will notice.
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Originally Posted by Ginger1
A woman’s sex drive wanes when the guy isn’t doing anything to rev it up.
Originally Posted by Steve85

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!

A woman's sex drive wanes when the guy is also a selfish jerkface that isn't meeting her needs, even if she feels stuck with him in a crappy,. loveless marriage.

My W's current sex drive is proof that if the H is putting in the energy to the relationship then her sex drive will follow suit! I was in a SSM for a longtime because I stopped being there for her emotionally, making her feel special, making her feel desirable and wanted, doing my part.

Guys, never stop dating your W. PERIOD. When you take her for granted, yeah her sex drive will wane.
This is all fine when the couple is working on the relationship.

But when one person is done, the rules change. Reducing resentment and all the other DBing skills need to be done before there is any chance of dating.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Hi Tom, you posted to another thread asking me to take a look at yours. I went back and read it all from the beginning. Your situation sounds so much like mine that I feel like I could have written a lot of your posts. We had a marriage our friends were all jealous of. We got along fantastic. We had (still have) 3 amazing kids. We did things together as a family, but we also did things separately and maintained some healthy independence. We very rarely fought, in 20 years I would say maybe 3 or 4 times. We were quite religious, faith was important to us. We had a beautiful home that was paid for, sizeable savings for each of our kids to fund college and healthy retirement plans that were going to allow us to retire in our mid-50's. BD came without warning like a bolt out of the blue. Things went from a peaceful, happy marriage to discussion of splitting assets and how we were going to work out child visitation so fast that my head was quite literally spinning for months.

One thing I've seen you mention several times is the need for closure and the need to know "why". As Vapo replied, you'll never know "why", because more than likely your W doesn't even know why. Oh sure maybe you weren't as loving as you were earlier in the M, and didn't communicate as well as you could have, but the same could no doubt be said for your W and pretty much every other person in a long term marriage or relationship. And I would wager that like my XW, your W would have done ANYTHING earlier in the M to save it NO MATTER WHAT PROBLEMS CAME UP. Right? So what happened to her that she went from wanting the M at all costs to not even wanting to lift her pinky off the table to try anymore? I don't know. You don't know. She doesn't know. Something is happening to her internally, there is some kind of struggle going on and she doesn't know where it originated or why. But she's no longer in love and she no longer wants to be married. THOSE things she does know.

And it was the same for my XW. Unlike you and your W, we did go to therapy. We had discussions, and months after BD we even went to Retrouvaille which was her idea. So we had a lot of dialog. Whenever asked why she didn't want to be married, her response was without exception "I don't know." I'll give you a specific example, the therapist asked her if I was a selfish person and she replied "no, he's a very warm and giving person." She asked her if she respected me and she replied "absolutely." Asked her if I was an uncaring father and she said "not at all, he's an amazing father." Then she said "what about sex, does he not meet your needs?" Her reply shocked me since we had not had sex since BD, but she said "oh I really enjoy the sex and wouldn't mind continuing to have sex even now." The therapist said "I'm confused, you say you trust and respect him, he's an excellent father and the sex is great, we call those the three pillars of a healthy relationship. So why is it you don't want to be married?" "I don't know, I just don't want to try."

And in the almost 10 years since BD, that is as close as I've ever gotten to an explanation of "why".

So you will get closure, but your closure won't be in knowing why, it will be in letting go of the need to know why. Sometimes things happen without reason.

Early on I sought reasons to explain why it was happening. I looked into anti-depressants and menopause in particular. My XW was going through menopause at the time, and she had been taking A/D's since our son was born. Particularly with A/D's there is a lack of research on the long term consequences of continual usage, but preliminary research is indicating it CAN affect "love feelings" and that some people lose love for their spouse and even their kids after having been on them for years. Ironically my XW and I had dinner with two of our kids last night and XW was talking about how she's cut her A/D's down to about 10% of what she was taking and now feels more like her old self, she said "I didn't realize how drugged up I was all those years until I started cutting back." I'm not offering this as any kind of explanation, but I've always felt that something "external" happened, that this wasn't just a case of me being a poor husband. And I'm still convinced there IS a reason even if I'll never know for sure. My brother thinks that when we die the answers to all of life's mysteries will be revealed to us. I know this will be number one on my list, LOL!

But I did finally let go of the need to know why, and I let go of my XW, and let go of our M. I moved on, found new ways to be happy, and became at peace with it all.

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She has hardly spoken to me since the filing 11 months ago last September. We have seen each other in person a mere three times. She has refused to talk, which hurts even more, because the "why" still makes me weep. I have a feeling that she is not talking because she doesn't want to take a chance that her will to divorce will weaken. For years she said we didn't communicate very well, yet after suffering in silence for years, she is committing that very same offense -- not talking.


She's not guilty of an offense, she just doesn't know. There's nothing to verbalize. And she knows telling you "I don't know" is just going to make you frustrated and possibly angry, and so she'd rather just not talk. Plus the separation is her way of letting go, and she's probably afraid that if she sees you she might second guess her decision. This decision she made was a very difficult one and she is wracked with guilt over hurting you, the kids, your family and friends. She hates herself for it. She probably cries a lot even though she may appear cold and indifferent. But she still feels like she must do this to survive. My XW told me all of these things, but not until long after BD.

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I am a tender-hearted man. I still can't sleep more than 4 hours a night without sleeping pills. I had a heart arrhythmia which turned out to be temporary. I had other symptoms of stress such as extreme nighttime sweats.


These things are unfortunately normal for what you're going through. It'll go away but it takes time.

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We are (were) a Christian couple. The Bible says that marriage is made in heaven and we are commanded to try and make it work. The bible also says that if you are in conflict with another person of faith, and feel you can't communicate with that individual, you must find a third party who will help intercede. She did none of this.


Again she just doesn't have anything to say that will help anyone understand. The most difficult thing a LBS can do is set aside their own hurt and see things from the WAS's perspective. She is in extreme pain internally. If you knew how badly she felt, if you could step inside her for a moment, you would probably feel real anguish for her and back off and leave her alone to help her recover. All your attempts to talk to her and find out why and negotiate are just making her feel worse.

I am not saying what she is doing is right, not at all. I'm just saying you have to respect her wishes, it's the only way forward.

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So I'm trying to pick up the pieces. How do you take apart a home that has so many wonderful family memories? How do you subdivide possessions in a house that is the only home our three children even knew? How do you accept what is the ultimate rejection of you -- a woman who looks you in the eye (via an attorney) and says, "after knowing you for 34 years, 32 as your wife, I don't love you anymore and do not want to spend another hour with you"? How do you accept the death sentence administered to your marriage?


You do it because you have to. You don't have a choice in the matter, it takes two to get married but only one to divorce.

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If there is any consolation to all of this, it's that Michele says that men in my situation make great second husbands. Because once we got to rock bottom we would do anything to save our marriages and be better men. She also says that marriages in this situation can be turned around if the woman is willing to talk for the first time. Sadly, that is not my situation. So I suppose it will be another woman who will benefit from Tom version 2.0.


You don't know what the future holds. People reconcile after very long periods of time. A consultant I work with remarried his wife after they were divorced for 15 years. My XW and I get along better and better each day, at first she wanted nothing to do with me, did not even want to talk or text. Now she finds all kinds of reasons to contact me. Yesterday she asked me to come over and fix some nail pops, said she just can't fix them like I do. Then she invited me to dinner with two of our kids as I mentioned before.

Does that mean we will reconcile? I don't know, and to be honest at this point I don't really care. I love the life I have now, I don't know that I would ever want to be married again. I have a lot of good friends, and I have my own home set up the way I want it. I do my sculpting on the dining table, why? Because I can, haha! I eat when I want, I go the gym when I want, I ride my motorcycles when the mood strikes. Sometimes I go to bed early. Sometimes I stay up late. I'm not going to lie, it's all pretty darned awesome!


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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I wanted to reply to this as well but my last post was getting very long:

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A new friend, about age 55, told me the story of his WAW from about 10 years ago. I'll spare you the details, but he said that the pain never goes away. Never goes away. Last year, this friend remarried a lovely woman, stunning in fact, and is very happy. But he says that every day, during some moment of quiet, he feels pain because his first love, and his beautiful young family, fell apart. [I think his new wife must be a saint.] "It hurts every day, Tom," he said.


I would say this is different for each person. BD for me as almost 10 years ago as well. The pain did absolutely go away for me, I do not feel any pain or regret or anger or anything negative over what happened. One chapter of my life closed, and another chapter opened. It wasn't what I planned, but as John Lennon said, "life is what happens while you're planning for something else." I had a great marriage. It ended, but that does not make it any less great. I wouldn't trade the experience for anything, even had I known in the beginning how it was going to end.

You've mentioned your faith a few times, as a reader of the Bible tell me this, is it filled with stories of people who had perfect, happy lives from beginning to end? Or is it filled with people who have had to face all kinds of crazy, shocking, life-altering adversity and somehow survived and even came out better for having gone through it?


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
The pain did absolutely go away for me, I do not feel any pain or regret or anger or anything negative over what happened.

I divorced my wife in 2010, so about the same ten-year time-frame.

Tom, if he's a friend you may want to nudge him towards IC. We all grieve at different paces, but daily pain 10yrs later, isn't typical of what I see from other divorced single parents.

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Hi Tom, you posted to another thread asking me to take a look at yours. I went back and read it all from the beginning. Your situation sounds so much like mine that I feel like I could have written a lot of your posts. We had a marriage our friends were all jealous of. We got along fantastic. We had (still have) 3 amazing kids. We did things together as a family, but we also did things separately and maintained some healthy independence. We very rarely fought, in 20 years I would say maybe 3 or 4 times. We were quite religious, faith was important to us. We had a beautiful home that was paid for, sizeable savings for each of our kids to fund college and healthy retirement plans that were going to allow us to retire in our mid-50's.

You are right, our family situations are almost identical.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
So you will get closure, but your closure won't be in knowing why, it will be in letting go of the need to know why. Sometimes things happen without reason.

I am slowly coming to accept this.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
She's not guilty of an offense, she just doesn't know. There's nothing to verbalize. And she knows telling you "I don't know" is just going to make you frustrated and possibly angry, and so she'd rather just not talk. Plus the separation is her way of letting go, and she's probably afraid that if she sees you she might second guess her decision. This decision she made was a very difficult one and she is wracked with guilt over hurting you, the kids, your family and friends. She hates herself for it. She probably cries a lot even though she may appear cold and indifferent. But she still feels like she must do this to survive. My XW told me all of these things, but not until long after BD.

I think you nailed it on the head here. Especially the fact that she's not really sure why but she needed to do it to survive. In the one letter she wrote me, she said she felt like the house was a prison, that she was suffocating while there. That's why she had to walk away. And ... I guess the hardest part about accepting that is that all that pain, all that discomfort, was because of me. ME. I never thought I was that bad of a guy, in fact amongst all our friends I thought I was the most decent, loyal, loving and supportive of the husbands. WRONG!!!

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
The most difficult thing a LBS can do is set aside their own hurt and see things from the WAS's perspective. She is in extreme pain internally. If you knew how badly she felt, if you could step inside her for a moment, you would probably feel real anguish for her and back off and leave her alone to help her recover. All your attempts to talk to her and find out why and negotiate are just making her feel worse.

I understand. I do, at least intellectually. My heart screams otherwise. It took me a week or so, but then -- believe it or not -- I did understand how our circumstances might have driven her to want to leave.

The most painful part, though, is that she gave the marriage zero chance. There are so many things she could have said -- "Tom, I want to move out and get away. It might be six months before we can talk again, but I ... must ... have ... this ... space." Sure, I would've accepted that. Or, she might have said, "Tom, I'm filing for divorce, but during the process we can perhaps work on things to see if we don't need to sign the final papers in a year." That would have been a bigger shock, but I could've handled that.

But she gave me no chance. Zero chance. After all those years!! Held inside these hurts for so long and then just walked.

She undertook a few bad actions that poisoned the well, also, no doubt at the advice of her aggressive attorney and an angry sister. Took all the money with her. Left the house on BD day with the best car. Collected all the tax refunds. Had the attorney accuse me of stalking, violence, harrassment and more and threaten a restraining order. This did not make things easier, although I have already forgiven these as well. [As a Christian, I am commanded to forgive, but there is no way I could be angry at her or hate her anyway.]

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I love the life I have now, I don't know that I would ever want to be married again. I have a lot of good friends, and I have my own home set up the way I want it. I do my sculpting on the dining table, why? Because I can, haha! I eat when I want, I go the gym when I want, I ride my motorcycles when the mood strikes. Sometimes I go to bed early. Sometimes I stay up late. I'm not going to lie, it's all pretty darned awesome!

Well, I know some of that now. But I am made for relationship, I am certain of that. I already told my kids that someday there will be another Mrs Tom. And I guarantee you I will not be available to my ex in 15 years, much less 5 years.

So did you ever date? Are you dating now?

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Originally Posted by tom_h

I think you nailed it on the head here. Especially the fact that she's not really sure why but she needed to do it to survive. In the one letter she wrote me, she said she felt like the house was a prison, that she was suffocating while there. That's why she had to walk away.


My XW said the same, in fact she used that same word- "suffocating". Said she felt trapped in the house. Yet later she wanted ME to leave the house! So yeah, by "trapped" she just meant because I was there!

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And ... I guess the hardest part about accepting that is that all that pain, all that discomfort, was because of me. ME. I never thought I was that bad of a guy, in fact amongst all our friends I thought I was the most decent, loyal, loving and supportive of the husbands. WRONG!!!


Is it wrong though? I was a devoted husband and father. Always put my family first. Never so much as hugged another woman that wasn't a family member in our 25 years together. 6 months before BD I found my wife crying in the bedroom. I went to her side and asked if she was OK, through tears she begged me to take care of myself, said she couldn't bear the thought of life without me. Said she wouldn't be able to survive without me, and she feared what would happen to the kids. I reassured her that I felt great and would continue to make sure my health was such that I wouldn't be going anywhere. Just as a side note I've always eaten pretty well and stayed fit and have never been more than maybe 10 pounds overweight in my life, so this was coming out of nowhere. Anyway, 6 months later there I was sitting slack jawed as my loving wife said "I just don't want to be married anymore."

My point is this- some people find themselves here because they treated their spouse poorly. They didn't respect them, didn't show them love, didn't treat them well. But some people find themselves here IN SPITE of having been a really good, or even fantastic spouse. You have to do some soul-searching to decide if you were the former or the latter. And you should by all means use this as a tool to make yourself a better person. But this may have a lot more to do with her going through something than your perceived failings as a husband.

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The most painful part, though, is that she gave the marriage zero chance. There are so many things she could have said -- "Tom, I want to move out and get away. It might be six months before we can talk again, but I ... must ... have ... this ... space." Sure, I would've accepted that. Or, she might have said, "Tom, I'm filing for divorce, but during the process we can perhaps work on things to see if we don't need to sign the final papers in a year." That would have been a bigger shock, but I could've handled that.


If she had said that it might have made you feel better, but it wouldn't have been honest. Sometimes they'll say those things, but it's just to "soften the blow". Her mind is made up for now. It CAN and probably WILL change later, but right now she doesn't think she will ever change her mind.

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She undertook a few bad actions that poisoned the well, also, no doubt at the advice of her aggressive attorney and an angry sister. Took all the money with her. Left the house on BD day with the best car. Collected all the tax refunds. Had the attorney accuse me of stalking, violence, harrassment and more and threaten a restraining order.


Wow that's awful! My XW treated me very poorly after BD (not like that though, would just say mean/ angry things), but at some point she actually approached me and said she had done it on purpose because she thought it would make it easier for me to let go. But she said she could see it was just hurting me worse and in turn made her feel worse, so she wasn't going to do it anymore. WOW the things they say and do. It's just all a ride on the crazy train. But she was good to her word, she continued to be cold/ indifferent after but not mean like she had been.

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But I am made for relationship, I am certain of that.


I thought I was too. I really did. But you are going to discover that dating at our age is MUCH different than when we were younger. You are set in your ways and so will be the women you meet. You may not realize how set in your ways you are until you try to introduce a new love interest into it all. It's not easy!

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So did you ever date? Are you dating now?


Oh yes, I dated quite a bit. I have so many really wild stories, LOL! I started dating about a year after BD which in retrospect wasn't enough time, I should have waited longer, I just wasn't mentally prepared yet. I had little luck meeting women my age because of the above issue about people being set in their ways, plus they just seemed to have a high degree of fear of meeting a stranger. So they would just want to text forever and never commit to meeting. Younger women were much more willing to meet, often the same day we started contact. And younger women were thrilled to have someone be a gentleman around them, dress well and treat them with honor and respect, apparently that's in short supply in younger men these days. I dated some absolutely stunning young ladies. They weren't without their baggage, that's for sure. I eventually started seeing one more seriously. We've been seeing each other for around 5 years, it's kind of a long distance relationship because she's about 1-1/2 hours away and our schedules make it tough to get together. So we only see each other about once a month, but we text a lot. She's much younger, is a partner in a small business and does part-time modeling. She's very sweet, pretty and has a centerfold figure. If you are intelligent, successful, fit and average to good looking you will be surprised at your options out there.

Just make sure you are ready though. If in doubt then give yourself more time. It is REALLY tough getting close to someone after you've programmed yourself to be devoted to one particular person for decades.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Just make sure you are ready though ... It is REALLY tough getting close to someone after you've programmed yourself to be devoted to one particular person for decades.

So just how old are you, AS? I'm late 50s. And for the life of me, I can't imagine marrying, much less dating someone much younger. I don't want to have a household someday filled with young kids or teenagers unless they're my grandchildren.

What I've heard from most people is that there are a LOT of single women between 50 and 65 but most of them are screwed up. Really screwed up. I got hammered here by a few veterans because of a brief relationship I had with a woman my age that began 75 days after BD and lasted about 3-4 months. But I learned one heckuva lot so I don't regret it for a minute, although it most definitely WAS too soon.

Also, and maybe you don't want to be 100% public about it, but I'd appreciate having a one-on-one dialogue with you about dating. What do you think?

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Most women between 50 and 65 are pretty screwed up?!

And the men aren’t ?

Curious who “most people” are that can make this braids statement.

I’m not going to lie, Tom. But I have a strong sense of misogyny from your posts .

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We're all screwed up sometimes, but yes Tom without some sort of evidence or context that statement is weird. There's plenty of gals just like you going through tough times, putting in the work to heal, and moving forward. You'll turn all of them away too if you make statements like that.


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I almost replied to the "most people" and "single women between 50 and 65" comment earlier. Weird theory. I know more women aged 45-55 than 55-65, but based on them, strongly disagree.

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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
We're all screwed up sometimes, but yes Tom without some sort of evidence or context that statement is weird. There's plenty of gals just like you going through tough times, putting in the work to heal, and moving forward. You'll turn all of them away too if you make statements like that.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
I almost replied to the "most people" and "single women between 50 and 65" comment earlier. Weird theory. I know more women aged 45-55 than 55-65, but based on them, strongly disagree.

Roger that, I'm really just quoting friends who have been through this ahead of me, who recall the difference between when they were in the 20s and single, and more recently in their 50s. Back in their 20s, they rarely had alarm bells go off, but dating today they see baggage and trouble nearly all the time. I didn't mean to slight women, I have my own baggage, fully on display here! But since I don't date men I'm don't really care if men have baggage too, from a dating perspective.

The comments I've gotten from friends is that a lot of women are either still angry about their marriage or are terribly wounded. Many of them are in severe financial trouble as well. It doesn't take long for it to come out, either. I've already seen that myself, see the first thread if interested.

It's possible that such is the case because these women are all dating too soon, e.g., not following DB rules! That certainly makes sense.

I can understand this. I dated actively from age 16 to 26 and rarely encountered someone who, I would later learn, I should have steered clear of. But the reports from men today at least in my circle are otherwise. And while all the DBers may not have experienced this, we need to understand that most of the world does not follow DB principles! I suppose that's why the divorce rate for second marriages is 60-70% per Steve85. Hopefully that number is far lower for DBers.


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Hi Tom,

Originally Posted by Tom
It's possible that such is the case because these women are all dating too soon, e.g., not following DB rules! That certainly makes sense. And while all the DBers may not have experienced this, we need to understand that most of the world does not follow DB principles!

Paid dating apps do some filtering for you. E.g., eHarmony doesn't allow married people. As you know, divorces take time, since you're 13 months separated but not divorced yet. I found about 1 in 10 first dates had enough ex baggage they brought up their ex's. That was an acceptable rate for me. A friend required anyone she met to have been divorced for at least one year because she had a lower tolerance for dealing with baggage. She'd taken a year off, and wanted others to have put the same effort in.

I mean to say, having a good dating experience has less to do with expecting others to be DBrs, and more to do with setting and maintaining standards as to whom you're willing to date.

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Is it wrong though? I was a devoted husband and father. Always put my family first. Never so much as hugged another woman that wasn't a family member in our 25 years together. 6 months before BD I found my wife crying in the bedroom. I went to her side and asked if she was OK, through tears she begged me to take care of myself, said she couldn't bear the thought of life without me. Said she wouldn't be able to survive without me, and she feared what would happen to the kids. I reassured her that I felt great and would continue to make sure my health was such that I wouldn't be going anywhere. Just as a side note I've always eaten pretty well and stayed fit and have never been more than maybe 10 pounds overweight in my life, so this was coming out of nowhere. Anyway, 6 months later there I was sitting slack jawed as my loving wife said "I just don't want to be married anymore."

In this regard our situations are different. Your wife just grew apart from you, my wife specifically decided she didn't want to be married to me anymore. Too much stress, too much inattention to her needs, for example her love languages (I assume you know what those are). My attorney told me that my marriage started coming to an end 20 years ago, a death by a million cuts, a tally that grew each day.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
My point is this- some people find themselves here because they treated their spouse poorly. They didn't respect them, didn't show them love, didn't treat them well. But some people find themselves here IN SPITE of having been a really good, or even fantastic spouse. You have to do some soul-searching to decide if you were the former or the latter. And you should by all means use this as a tool to make yourself a better person. But this may have a lot more to do with her going through something than your perceived failings as a husband.

I think that in either case, we need to look at our failings as a husband. Even if she just grew apart, or had an A with an OM, there are still lessons for us. Maybe it's being sure to not miss the early signs.

That would be the situation in my case. I had assumed, since our wedding date, that we would stay together no matter what. I never thought of confirming that with her, asking her specifically, "are we doing OK?" Had she ever asked me, I would have always said I was committed to her forever, til the day we died. But my STBXW could not have held it in; had I asked her 3 or 4 years ago, "are we OK?" she might have well broke down and told me she was contemplating divorce, or ending the marriage someday. I never asked her. That's on me.

Because she did give me signs. I am a more traditionally-fashioned man, with a senior management career, well-educated, and well-accomplished. Frankly, I think she was attracted to that. She wanted to be a full-time Mom and have me as the sole breadwinner. But somewhere along the line that changed. First off, she went back to work in 2009 because our oldest was headed for college 2 years later and we needed the cash flow. It changed her stress level, and my STBXW is a tender woman who internalizes work stress a lot. A LOT. It would not surprise me -- she never told me this -- that she resented having to go back to work.

Another sign was how she argued with me, probably beginning 10 years ago. At one point she actually started saying "F-- you!" on extremely rare occasions when she was really angry. Mind you, this never came about because I swore at her first. I never swore at her, ever. Never even called her a name. Rarely even raised my voice. But once every year, maybe two years, she would get angry enough to say that.

Yes I was shocked, but I forgave her. How could I not? I would say, "That really hurts, how can you say that?" and she would storm away. It would be forgotten an hour later. So I wrote it off. She's a lot like her mother, and her mother would do the same at times, say hurtful things that she really didn't mean. So I of course let the nastiness slide. It was so infrequent anyway.

Other times she would stubbornly stick to her guns during an argument, in spite of logic or the need to compromise. Usually it would be little things, like cutting back on the cable TV bill. We would begin to discuss it, she would raise the volume level, and then she would storm away saying something like, "I can't give in to you for my own self-respect!" Okay. I would usually reply with something like, "I understand that, but for harmony's sake, can we at least compromise?" If we compromised or found another approach it would be days later after her anger had passed.

What does all this mean? This tender-hearted, sweet woman, I was making her into an angry person for the first time in her life. Whether it was all me or 50-50, that was what was happening. And I did nothing actively to address it over those years, I just accepted it and waited for it to pass. And it didn't. It grew insider her and festered, until she walked out without notice.

Lesson learned to me forever. Watch for the early signs. Communicate as best as you can. Don't let the smoldering turn into a big fire.



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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Hi Tom,
Paid dating apps do some filtering for you. E.g., eHarmony doesn't allow married people. As you know, divorces take time, since you're 13 months separated but not divorced yet. I found about 1 in 10 first dates had enough ex baggage they brought up their ex's. That was an acceptable rate for me. A friend required anyone she met to have been divorced for at least one year because she had a lower tolerance for dealing with baggage. She'd taken a year off, and wanted others to have put the same effort in.

I mean to say, having a good dating experience has less to do with expecting others to be DBrs, and more to do with setting and maintaining standards as to whom you're willing to date.

Ah. Very thoughtful. I like it. I believe in the "trust but verify" approach, at least looking ahead, but I also like the notion of having a clear standard. Bravo to you for trying dating apps but I haven't thought for even a moment about starting that way!

But I do have one question. Don't all divorcees have to eventually talk about their exes? Whether it was 10 years or 30, that relationship had a huge influence on their life, and who they are today! So would it be better to say what you're looking for is whether they have settled feelings about their ex and their former marriage? Because I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be a topic of conversation. Certainly, for me at least, if the relationship was to get serious I would WANT to know if there was serious baggage or woundedness, and that could only come about by discussing that prior marriage.

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Originally Posted by tom_h
Bravo to you for trying dating apps but I haven't thought for even a moment about starting that way!
I prefer to meet people in person, but eHarmony is worth considering you're divorced and eligible. I had only good experiences, or interesting experiences that made good stories. wink

Originally Posted by tom_h
Don't all divorcees have to eventually talk about their exes? Whether it was 10 years or 30, that relationship had a huge influence on their life, and who they are today! So would it be better to say what you're looking for is whether they have settled feelings about their ex and their former marriage?

I want to see *everything* settled. I can hang out with anyone for 2-3 hours without discussing my ex-wife, previous boss, or childhood. If you can't help but bring up on a first date how they wronged you, your current struggles with them, or how my preferences compare--you have work to do. It's not uncommon to do light probing about ex's on 2nd or 3rd dates to feel out for baggage. It's not uncommon for ex's to come up occasionally once you're in a relationship, e.g. "Our hand-off is at 6pm, so anytime 6:15pm or later is good." I probably more directly talked about my ex 1-2x per year in my last relationship, mostly about future choices like how to jointly attending a graduation or promotion ceremony and the afterparty.

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JEsus, you really do not get out much. People lie, people hide stuff. Who would want to air their dirty laundry to a "stranger"?!?

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Originally Posted by tom_h
But I do have one question. Don't all divorcees have to eventually talk about their exes?
Yes. Red flag if they bring up the X on the first date.

Tom, I am 53. Bomb drop was Feb 18,2008. Worked on my self and DBed for about 1 year. "Decree of dissolution of marriage" signed Jan 2009". After that, I enjoyed the single life for a little over a year. First date with my lady July 2010. We have since moved in together and raised a blended family. The last thing either one of us were looking for was another long term relationship. The only thing I was looking for was to enjoy the company of someone who was honest and open. It took a lot of sifting to find her. We both still have lots of baggage. Still working on myself. It is a never ending process.








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Originally Posted by tom_h

But I do have one question. Don't all divorcees have to eventually talk about their exes? Whether it was 10 years or 30, that relationship had a huge influence on their life, and who they are today! So would it be better to say what you're looking for is whether they have settled feelings about their ex and their former marriage? Because I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be a topic of conversation. Certainly, for me at least, if the relationship was to get serious I would WANT to know if there was serious baggage or woundedness, and that could only come about by discussing that prior marriage.


I would think that the fact you were married before would have to come up nearly right away. If I went on a date with a woman, and she made me think she'd never been married before and I found out later she was divorced, I would probably not proceed to date #2.


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Nothing wrong with talking about you ex just don’t do it in a negative light.

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Originally Posted by Steve85
If I went on a date with a woman, and she made me think she'd never been married before and I found out later she was divorced, I would probably not proceed to date #2.

Deception of any kind on a first date is usually a red flag, for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Ginger1
Most women between 50 and 65 are pretty screwed up?!

And the men aren’t ?

Curious who “most people” are that can make this braids statement.

I’m not going to lie, Tom. But I have a strong sense of misogyny from your posts .

Well, respectfully, Ginger, you're wrong. And you need to understand the full context, if you read my other posts on this page. Incidentally, nowhere did I saw that "most women between 50 and 65 are screwed up." I bet you think Donald Trump told us to drink bleach, too! Next time take a deep breath and reread.

To quote you, I have a strong sense that you are touchy about language and engage in gross stereotypes about others (okay, just men). I will not engage in this debate, nor will I moderate what I say here, especially when you think it doesn't fit with how you want the world to be.

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Originally Posted by Steve85
If I went on a date with a woman, and she made me think she'd never been married before and I found out later she was divorced, I would probably not proceed to date #2.

Roger that. If someone lied to me like that I might not even give a final text or phone call.

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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Yes. Red flag if they bring up the X on the first date.

Roger that. On the first date I could handle, "Incidentally, I've been divorced about 18 months now. I'll be happy to tell you about things and how it impacted me and how I've grown someday, but tonight I hope we just talk about happy topics and get to know each other better."

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
The only thing I was looking for was to enjoy the company of someone who was honest and open. It took a lot of sifting to find her. We both still have lots of baggage. Still working on myself. It is a never ending process.

Wow. I understand the work in progress part, but what baggage do you carry after 12 years? I ask because I might well be looking forward to 12 years of hard work myself!

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Originally Posted by tom_h
I bet you think Donald Trump told us to drink bleach, too!
It was the media. It was taken out of context and broadcast over and over to the masses.

Anyway, back to you. It seems like things keep getting side tracked. Are you doing OK emotionally? What is the best way for us to help?


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Originally Posted by tom_h
what baggage do you carry after 12 years?
One simple example. I have a hard time apologizing. Most of the time, I don't even know I did something wrong. She has to point it out. It takes a lot of processing for me to understand.


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Originally Posted by tom_h

But I do have one question. Don't all divorcees have to eventually talk about their exes? Whether it was 10 years or 30, that relationship had a huge influence on their life, and who they are today! So would it be better to say what you're looking for is whether they have settled feelings about their ex and their former marriage? Because I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be a topic of conversation. Certainly, for me at least, if the relationship was to get serious I would WANT to know if there was serious baggage or woundedness, and that could only come about by discussing that prior marriage.


Sure, eventually. Just the same as any other topic that has baggage comes up like: upbringing, religion, politics etc. Do you expect people to go over those things on the first date in detail, too? For me, this was awkward to bring up on first dates, especially if I wasn't sure if I wanted to go on additional dates. I also did date people who knew me (e.g. not always on an app or something). I don't see my divorce from my first marriage as a huge influence on my current life, for the most part - while it wasn't that supremely long ago, we also don't have kids, didn't have joint property, and have not spoken since well before the D was finalized. It was my decision to D so I was very pleased with it and see it as a positive. I would never dodge the question, or mislead someone about it, it's just not defining to me as a person. When I dated after D, I dated some people who had been married previously, and some that had not. Most people have ex baggage, whether they were married or not. I can overcome some ex baggage, but certain religious or political things I cannot overcome, so those are more polarizing items that I'd rather know up front over exes.

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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Anyway, back to you. It seems like things keep getting side tracked. Are you doing OK emotionally? What is the best way for us to help?

Thanks for asking. I'm OK on the outside, people think I'm doing well, but on the inside I'm still a bit of a mess. Upset with myself that after 32 years I turned out to be an unfit husband. Working hard to fill my day. Trying to make new friends because all my old friends were married to my ex's best friends, and she's been talking trash about me to these girlfriends.

The worst is yet to come, I fear, as we approach the end of the divorce process. It'll get me down, especially the final signing of the papers. That's just the kind of sensitive guy I am.

But I'm slowly coming to terms with the princples of DB. I've been commenting on other posts and it really helps me congeal the concepts in my own mind when I get to talk with others.

Best way to help is keep engaging with me (and staying patient if I backslide) as I come to grips that my old life is never coming back. I still have dreams at night that this is all a dream, by the way.

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Originally Posted by tom_h

So just how old are you, AS? I'm late 50s.


It's in my signature, I'm 59.

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And for the life of me, I can't imagine marrying, much less dating someone much younger. I don't want to have a household someday filled with young kids or teenagers unless they're my grandchildren.


Yeah neither do I. My GF already has a daughter and doesn't want more children. That's definitely a subject that came up early on and we're on the same page.

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What I've heard from most people is that there are a LOT of single women between 50 and 65 but most of them are screwed up. Really screwed up.


Personally I encountered the opposite of that. The women my age that I interacted with through online dating definitely had their stuff together. Many were intelligent, well-employed and living in nice areas. The problem wasn't that they were screwed up, it's that they were very cautious about meeting. They just wanted to text. Many of them had come out of bad relationships and wanted to "take it slow and be friends first" (I heard that so many times). But personally I learned early on that one face-to-face meeting tells you more than a thousand texts. I let myself get drawn into some "text relationships" where we opened up to each other and shared hopes and dreams and such only to meet and find out there was zero spark. After that happened a few times I would exchange a few messages and then suggest we meet for lunch or dinner somewhere public. This was where the age problem came up because few women my age would meet early on even after I explained my reasons, they wanted to just text. The younger women were perfectly fine with it though.

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Also, and maybe you don't want to be 100% public about it, but I'd appreciate having a one-on-one dialogue with you about dating. What do you think?


I'm happy to answer whatever questions you have, I've always been very open here about my experiences with the end of my M, the S and D, and the years since then including my dating activities and ongoing interactions with my XW. There's 10 years of my life documented here that's not anywhere else!


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Originally Posted by tom_h
I'm OK on the outside, people think I'm doing well, but on the inside I'm still a bit of a mess.

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I still have dreams at night that this is all a dream, by the way.
Both definitely normal. Takes time to process everything.

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Working hard to fill my day. Trying to make new friends because all my old friends were married to my ex's best friends, and she's been talking trash about me to these girlfriends.
It is interesting how friends "pick sides". I intentionally went out to make new friends "outside" my current circles. If you have time check out Shawn Ryan on Youtube. He was a navy seal and has an interesting presentation on friends. It makes sense.

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Upset with myself that after 32 years I turned out to be an unfit husband./quote]You lasted longer than most. That doesn't sound like unfit to me. Somehow we missed the memo that we need to keep focused on our personal growth during the marriage. Living with someone else is crazy hard.

[quote][The worst is yet to come, I fear, as we approach the end of the divorce process. It'll get me down, especially the final signing of the papers. That's just the kind of sensitive guy I am.
There is another guy buried down inside you. He is the one that needs to be projected out during this. It is kinda Yin-yang thing. You want your wife to see a complete different you. Confident and excited about the future.


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But I'm slowly coming to terms with the principles of DB. I've been commenting on other posts and it really helps me congeal the concepts in my own mind when I get to talk with others.
I have always said "helping others, helps me". Pretty easy for me to know how to respond IRL when I have thought about how others should respond.

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Best way to help is keep engaging with me (and staying patient if I backslide)
Always helpfully to remind us of this from time to time as well as when you decide you need a different kind of help.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Somehow we missed the memo that we need to keep focused on our personal growth during the marriage.

Curious that you say this. In my situation at least, wouldn't the bigger issue have been my not staying in touch with who she is, who she became, and actively investing in the relationship? I don't disagree that we need to personally grow but -- this is not meant to be cynical -- sometimes the years from age 30-55 are so damn busy making a career and raising kids that you don't get time to focus on personal growth.

I'd rank the priorities during that period, in fact, as: 1) providing for the family; 2) raising well-adjusted children; 3) doing your best to keep your spouse happy; 4) staying physically healthy; 5) personal growth.

Because after the kids leave the house then #1-2 go away, and #3-5 all kind of mush together. I just didn't get the chance to really get to Phase 2 before she walked out, mostly because I didn't attend much to #3.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Living with someone else is crazy hard.

Wow, a nice insight.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
There is another guy buried down inside you. He is the one that needs to be projected out during this. It is kinda Yin-yang thing. You want your wife to see a complete different you. Confident and excited about the future.

My wife will never see the new me. She has made that quite clear. But there will be another Mrs Tom someday. She will be the lucky beneficiary.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Always helpful to remind us of this from time to time as well as when you decide you need a different kind of help.

Thanks, R2C, for these words. Sometimes I feel chipper and other times the load feels so damn heavy. I am past missing her every day, so the burden is mostly facing the fact -- one I still cannot shake -- of having failed. I know you have counseled otherwise, and I believe you intellectually, but the visceral feelings are usually on top.

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Originally Posted by SamCal
Originally Posted by tom_h

But I do have one question. Don't all divorcees have to eventually talk about their exes? Whether it was 10 years or 30, that relationship had a huge influence on their life, and who they are today! So would it be better to say what you're looking for is whether they have settled feelings about their ex and their former marriage? Because I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be a topic of conversation. Certainly, for me at least, if the relationship was to get serious I would WANT to know if there was serious baggage or woundedness, and that could only come about by discussing that prior marriage.


Sure, eventually. Just the same as any other topic that has baggage comes up like: upbringing, religion, politics etc. Do you expect people to go over those things on the first date in detail, too? For me, this was awkward to bring up on first dates, especially if I wasn't sure if I wanted to go on additional dates. I also did date people who knew me (e.g. not always on an app or something). I don't see my divorce from my first marriage as a huge influence on my current life, for the most part - while it wasn't that supremely long ago, we also don't have kids, didn't have joint property, and have not spoken since well before the D was finalized. It was my decision to D so I was very pleased with it and see it as a positive. I would never dodge the question, or mislead someone about it, it's just not defining to me as a person. When I dated after D, I dated some people who had been married previously, and some that had not. Most people have ex baggage, whether they were married or not. I can overcome some ex baggage, but certain religious or political things I cannot overcome, so those are more polarizing items that I'd rather know up front over exes.

I guess it's a fine line, isn't it? But anyone with his/her wits about them would know when the mention of the prior marriage is too much, too little, or just about right as the weeks pass by and you continue dating.

Because I think a dating partner who won't talk about an ex AT ALL is probably hiding something. Or carries a lot of guilt. Or, if mostly on the receiving end of a bad marriage (e.g., a victim) is deeply wounded.

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Originally Posted by tom_h
In my situation at least, wouldn't the bigger issue have been my not staying in touch with who she is, who she became, and actively investing in the relationship?
Possibly, I lump this area into personal growth as well.


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I'd rank the priorities during that period, in fact, as: 1) providing for the family; 2) raising well-adjusted children; 3) doing your best to keep your spouse happy; 4) staying physically healthy; 5) personal growth.

Now that you have the power of hind sight, what do you think the priorities should be ranked?


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My wife will never see the new me. She has made that quite clear. But there will be another Mrs Tom someday. She will be the lucky beneficiary.
Since this is a save your marriage website, I default to the spouse as the target. But yes, all and every woman you interact with in the future.


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I believe you intellectually, but the visceral feelings are usually on top.
Correct. Having the knowledge comes before changing our beliefs and behavior.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by tom_h
I'd rank the priorities during that period, in fact, as: 1) providing for the family; 2) raising well-adjusted children; 3) doing your best to keep your spouse happy; 4) staying physically healthy; 5) personal growth.

Now that you have the power of hindsight, what do you think the priorities should be ranked?

I have two areas of thought here, in response.

First, perhaps keep the ranking exactly the same. When children are young, they should be top priority, and equally essential is providing for them and the family as a whole.

The other sense I have is that the marriage is top priority, and only when that is healthy, then everything else works out. That would mean 3) becomes 1).

I'm torn here. The original ranking does not mean you neglect your marriage or neglect keeping your spouse happy, but the two of you should be grown-up enough to shoulder the burdens of parenthood without falling apart because every living minute isn't a romantic paradise. If there were 36 hours in the day, and children slept 16 of them, then there would be time!

My STBXW used to say little things that, viewed today, were some early signs. She would say, after an especially busy week when I traveled M-F and needed to decompress on Saturday, "sometimes you act like you're single." That hurt, because to me "acting like you're single" means philandering, hanging out with bros on Friday night at the local bar, and ignoring her. Sometimes I would be exasperated at such a comment, or sometimes dismissive. You know the story -- I was working my a-- off for the family, so she could stay home and raise the kids, and I get no appreciation. For a number of years I was traveling internationally on business, and then needed a full day to get back to the local time zone. She often didn't take that well either, took it personally. She loved the income and the lifestyle, but was so focused on herself!

I received one comment from a woman, whose marriage ended with the death of her husband from cancer, that "you have to play the hand you are dealt. If you keep complaining that the cards aren't right, or that things aren't fair, you will never be content." If my STBXW had an ounce of this wisdom there might have been a different outcome. She should have known better; we were a Christian couple and if anyone is prepared to understand this wisdom, a Christian is!

When she finally walked out, without advance notice, I am certain that she had spent years convincing herself she wasn't in love with me anymore. I was under some stress and had put on a lot of weight during that final year, so even looking at me might have been hard.

Sometimes I do wonder if all this wasn't inevitable given her character.

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To all fellow DBers, thanks so far for comments, dialogue, and support so far! I've been at this for about 60 days and have changed a lot in my outlook, mostly because of you all!

But now I'm canvassing everyone for advice about communication -- communicating with my STBXW 13 months after BD.

Here's where things stand. We are entering perhaps the toughest part of the divorce process, trying to split up everything and, hopefully, avoid a trial.

First, I need to go back to last year. In the two weeks after my STBXW first filed for divorce, she was insistent that we could do the divorce without lawyers, using a mediator. I still wanted her back, so I agreed to it -- hoping beyond hope that my assent would warm her toward me. I couldn't have been more wrong; We had a 1-on-1 meeting 17 days after BD, and 11 days after that she went nuclear on me. Her lawyer accused me in correspondence of being hostile toward her, having violent tendencies and anger management issues, of harassing her, and threatening a restraining order if I so much as breathed a word via text or email. It almost put me in the ER. Here was the sweetest woman in the universe, presumably still calling herself a Christian, pulling the most dirty trick you can on a LBH who was still in shock from BD and desperate to do anything to reconcile.

Of course it totally poisoned the waters. Now there was zero chance that we would roll up our sleeves and work together toward an amicable divorce. Just what the lawyers want -- all communication being routed through them.

Her attorney never filed for the restraining order; in fact she fired him a couple months later and hired another one. I have speculated many times that she approved the "restraining order threat" against her better judgment, because she is naive and can be manipulated. And, when it didn't work, maybe that attorney wanted to fight harder and dirtier and she objected to the nastiness, and eventually fired him. I have no proof of this. Still, there is official correspondence on the record of this nasty accusation so I suppose it is still operative; meaning, if I sent her one text showing just a little irritation her new attorney could forward it to the judge as proof and thereby finally get that restraining order.

But my question here is essentially independent of the legal shenanigans. She has sent me a couple emails since August asking this and that and I have not replied. In not one of them did she say something mollifying like, "Let's put the fighting and division behind us, Tom, and try and work the details out on our own. I know we can do it." They usually say, "I'd like to know when I can come by this weekend to get some clothing" or "I understand you bought a new knife set, can I have the old one." I haven't answered a single one of the emails; maybe it's petulant of me but she set the stage for our communication at each step of the way and I guess it's my own little rebellion against her. Now I control how we communicate.

Does anyone here have any suggestions? What have you all been through? When a spouse, during the process of a divorce got nasty and played dirty, how did you turn things around? I just need some perspective. Thanks.




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hi Tom,

You posted on someone else's thread asking me about boundaries in your situation... yes, boundaries are important for everyone, no matter what their situation is. I'd read the boundary thread carefully if you haven't already, and then spend some time thinking about whether your behavior is there to protect you (healthy boundary) or there to control your W's behavior (not a boundary, but a controlling behavior. I read a lot of controlling tendencies in your descriptions of your interactions with your W. Something to think about.).

When I read your above question, it feels to me, though I might be reading this incorrectly, that you are not responding to her emails to punish her and feel in control of the situation, not to protect yourself because any interaction with her is painful. And, you're hurt that her communication is all business, not about your relationship.

You might read through Unchien's threads. He's going through a pretty nasty D right now and his W made up some terrible accusations. I thought of his thread (and DnJ's on the MLC board, whose W made an announcement on Thanksgiving and walked out the door and that was it) when reading through yours, as situations you might identify with. I read earlier you feeling the need to understand why your W did what she did (I can identify with this too). I think Unchien's thread might really help you to let go, and also how to set boundaries to protect yourself without spending time or energy thinking how enforcing those boundaries might be perceived by your W. He's secure in knowing that he is doing the right thing and has let go of the need to understand or control his W's narrative.

I guess in your exact situation, I would first understand what your own boundaries are around communication. If any communication would send you into a tailspin, keep ignoring her emails for your own protection. But, if it wouldn't hurt you to respond that she can have the old knife set and leave it out for her to pick up, why wouldn't you do that? Wouldn't you want her to treat you the same way? Modeling the kind of behavior you'd like to see, and being true to yourself-- not being petty towards her just to prove some point or because she was petty towards you first-- seems like the right thing to do (as long as you can do it whilst still enforcing your own boundaries). It takes two to tango. Truly dropping the rope means not ignoring her in order to control the situation or punish her. It means you're fine, no matter what, and a polite request from her doesn't anger you, or depress you because it isn't the communication you want to hear from her.

hang in there, Tom. I know this is all really, really hard. But you'll get through it.


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[quote=tom_h]
My wife will never see the new me. She has made that quite clear. But there will be another Mrs Tom someday. She will be the lucky beneficiary.
[quote]

My W has actually said to me how unfair it is that some other woman will get to benefit from the improved version of me. Even more annoying is that her bf before me changed into the perfect guy (she wouldn't take him back when he tried), and she laments that his new W got the best version of him too. I wanted to throttle her and say, "well then don't let history repeat itself then!".

Instead she has chosen to an OM who doesn't seem to be much of a man at all who defines himself by his sexual prowess.


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Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Originally Posted by tom_h

My wife will never see the new me. She has made that quite clear. But there will be another Mrs Tom someday. She will be the lucky beneficiary.


My W has actually said to me how unfair it is that some other woman will get to benefit from the improved version of me. Even more annoying is that her bf before me changed into the perfect guy (she wouldn't take him back when he tried), and she laments that his new W got the best version of him too. I wanted to throttle her and say, "well then don't let history repeat itself then!"

Instead she has chosen to an OM who doesn't seem to be much of a man at all who defines himself by his sexual prowess.

Once you get past your pain, OB, I suppose you will see the supreme irony in her behavior. All I can do is shake my head on your behalf.

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Originally Posted by may22
hi Tom,

You posted on someone else's thread asking me about boundaries in your situation... yes, boundaries are important for everyone, no matter what their situation is. I'd read the boundary thread carefully if you haven't already, and then spend some time thinking about whether your behavior is there to protect you (healthy boundary) or there to control your W's behavior (not a boundary, but a controlling behavior. I read a lot of controlling tendencies in your descriptions of your interactions with your W. Something to think about.).

When I read your above question, it feels to me, though I might be reading this incorrectly, that you are not responding to her emails to punish her and feel in control of the situation, not to protect yourself because any interaction with her is painful. And, you're hurt that her communication is all business, not about your relationship.

You might read through Unchien's threads. He's going through a pretty nasty D right now and his W made up some terrible accusations. I thought of his thread (and DnJ's on the MLC board, whose W made an announcement on Thanksgiving and walked out the door and that was it) when reading through yours, as situations you might identify with. I read earlier you feeling the need to understand why your W did what she did (I can identify with this too). I think Unchien's thread might really help you to let go, and also how to set boundaries to protect yourself without spending time or energy thinking how enforcing those boundaries might be perceived by your W. He's secure in knowing that he is doing the right thing and has let go of the need to understand or control his W's narrative.

I guess in your exact situation, I would first understand what your own boundaries are around communication. If any communication would send you into a tailspin, keep ignoring her emails for your own protection. But, if it wouldn't hurt you to respond that she can have the old knife set and leave it out for her to pick up, why wouldn't you do that? Wouldn't you want her to treat you the same way? Modeling the kind of behavior you'd like to see, and being true to yourself-- not being petty towards her just to prove some point or because she was petty towards you first-- seems like the right thing to do (as long as you can do it whilst still enforcing your own boundaries). It takes two to tango. Truly dropping the rope means not ignoring her in order to control the situation or punish her. It means you're fine, no matter what, and a polite request from her doesn't anger you, or depress you because it isn't the communication you want to hear from her.

hang in there, Tom. I know this is all really, really hard. But you'll get through it.

May22, thanks for weighing in. I'll read the other posts as you suggest, but perhaps you can set me straight as to how the boundaries will apply in my case. Here's how my STBXW and I will interact in upcoming months:

* Direct communications via email or text, if we mutually decide to do it
* Indirect communications via our attorneys
* Possible 2-on-2 meeting in person (each of us with our attorney) to negotiate the divorce details -- this is apparently pretty common
* Arranging time with the children (all legal adults from age 19 to 26) over the holidays -- to date, we haven't communicated directly about this, all has been through the kids
* Friends around town (she has been talking trash about me -- I get evasive replies from otherwise great friends who I've known for 20 years)

How else would boundaries come into play?

As for your point about me possibly being petty ... well, yes, I did say something similar to that. But it is true that just about all of my interactions with her have been depressing since she became a WAW. Her rejection of me has been total, has been absolute. The games she had her attorney play on me hurt powerfully. I am a moral man, I will not pay her back or exchange salvo for salvo. Maybe I didn't stress that enough in the more recent posts. But just getting the most simple texts -- the most recent was last March -- makes me weep. So the issue of fair seems to pale against the question -- what is the right thing for me? Do I owe her an easy process moving forward?

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Tom, remember the DB principle of focusing on what you can control. You cannot control what she says to other people. You cannot control how other people react to what she says. So stop focusing on that. True friends are true friends. Friends that evade you because STBXW said you were mean aren't true friends.

Boundaries are not about controlling others, it is about deciding before hand what you will do! The example I always give is a boundary I think every spouse should have:

-If my spouse physically cheats on me I will go file for D.

Notice, this is not a boundary that says "YOU CANNOT CHEAT ON ME". That would non-enforceable. What it does do is set what YOUR ACTION will be if the boundary is crossed.

-If my WAS starts treating me disrespectfully I will stand up for myself "I refuse to stand her and be spoken to like that.", and walkaway.

Notice, you can't control your spouse's behavior, but you can control your action once the boundary is crossed.

I am a big fan of email only communication for folks that are in the advanced stages of a sitch like yours. Then every word will be established. The other two (indirect through attorneys and 2 on 2) are fine too, but can get expensive in a hurry. Attorney hourly rates are ridiculous.

Arranging time with the kids for the holidays is going to be an issue for years. My advice is to bend-over backwards to accommodate your kids. Do not put a premium on the day, just the time spent. "Dad, mom is insisting on getting together for Christmas Eve, and we have my spouse's side on Christmas. Could we do Christmas with you on Saturday?" Accommodate that. Do not get into the game of "Your mom gets Christmas Eve she is more important to than I am!" Be the bigger person. The time with your kids (and grandkids assuming you have some) is the important thing, not the day. The problems always arise when pettiness rules the day. Remember, your adult kids are caught in the middle of juggling all of this. Make it as easy for them as possible.


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Originally Posted by Tom
* Possible 2-on-2 meeting in person (each of us with our attorney) to negotiate the divorce details -- this is apparently pretty common

Hi Tom,

This is not so common. Sounds expensive.

My ex-wife and I had two negotiations. The first time she and I did everything ourselves and then finalized it. The second time her attorney would send a proposal she'd work on, and then my attorney would send back a counter-proposal I'd worked on, until we reached an agreement and finalized it. The attorneys alleviated worries and rejected anything unreasonable or unenforceable. It was a very smooth process.

Someone else I "know extremely well" had a more contested divorce. They would clear their proposal with their attorney, then send it to the mediator and their ex-H. Their ex-H would do likewise. The mediator intervened when neither side was making progress by offering out-of-the-box suggestions, setting a time-limit, and weighing in on how they believed a judge would rule if they couldn't agree on a point.

A 2-on-2 meeting sounds stressful. I'd have no interest sitting in a room with my ex for hours negotiating, and if I did, 1 attorney should be plenty to clarify what's reasonable and what's not.

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You are letting your emotions control your actions. Use logic.

Originally Posted by tom_h
"I'd like to know when I can come by this weekend to get some clothing"
H:"Sunday between 3-5 works for me"

Quote
"I understand you bought a new knife set, can I have the old one."
This is a yes or no answer.

If you did buy a new knife and you didn't want the old one:
H:"yes"


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Hi Tom,

Steve gives good advice about how to distinguish boundaries from controlling behavior. You control you. That's it. But you can remove yourself from a situation where your boundaries are being crossed and you're being hurt. You don't need to say anything to enforce a boundary ahead of time. You just do what you need to do to protect yourself.

Are you in IC? I spent a good amount of time with my IC defining my own boundaries for my own healing and emotional safety, and then working on enforcing them. Your boundaries are going to be YOUR boundaries and they might be different from anyone else's, but that is for you to decide. I don't think anyone here should tell you what your boundaries should be. For instance, I disagree with Steve that PA = D as a boundary for every person. But that's okay. Steve's boundaries are for him, and my boundaries are for me. Your boundaries need to be true and authentic boundaries in order for you to enforce them appropriately. Borrowing ones that people tell you to have is a recipe for letting them be trampled, I think.

Originally Posted by Tom
So the issue of fair seems to pale against the question -- what is the right thing for me? Do I owe her an easy process moving forward?

No. You don't owe her anything, in my book.

What do you need for your own healing and progress? If a cold text message from her makes you weep and spin, then let her know you'd like to communicate exclusively by email and stop responding to her texts until she stops texting you, or block her. Figure out what you need and then protect that space for yourself.

With your friends-- if I were you I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. You may be reading things into their responses that aren't meant that way. People sometimes feel uncomfortable about D and they may just not know what to say to you right now, not that they have heard anything from your W about you. Reach out when you're ready.

With your kids-- I agree with Steve to be as flexible as you can to support them. It is hard enough to deal with competing in-laws for holidays and I'm sure having freshly Ded parents adds a whole extra layer of difficulty to the mix, and they will be having a hard enough time dealing with it on their own. Have you talked with each of them about what they are thinking for the holidays? It may be best to understand where they are and what plans they've already made or are thinking of making, what their other obligations might be, before proposing something to your W (should you decide that is the best route to go). Note that if she's been the primary communicator with them about plans like this when you were M it may feel strange for you to jump into that role, but if I were you I'd far rather be active in the plans than wait for them to be made for you. Which very well might happen if you wait too long.


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Originally Posted by Steve85

Arranging time with the kids for the holidays is going to be an issue for years. My advice is to bend-over backwards to accommodate your kids. Do not put a premium on the day, just the time spent. "Dad, mom is insisting on getting together for Christmas Eve, and we have my spouse's side on Christmas. Could we do Christmas with you on Saturday?" Accommodate that. Do not get into the game of "Your mom gets Christmas Eve she is more important to than I am!" Be the bigger person. The time with your kids (and grandkids assuming you have some) is the important thing, not the day. The problems always arise when pettiness rules the day. Remember, your adult kids are caught in the middle of juggling all of this. Make it as easy for them as possible.


I also agree with Steve, but in my sitch, I made sure things were 50/50 fair and equal...

I didn't care if the kids were at my house Thanksgiving Thursday or Friday. As long as I was able to spend the day with them and that we alternated days each year. They were at my house on Thursday every other year.

Now that my kids are all out of the house, D19 asked about thanksgiving. I said I am fine following the same schedule as the divorce agreement to avoid consternation (one of those great words I learned from my lawyer) with her mother.

One exception to the alternating was the kids always had Christmas day with me and Christmas eve with their mother. (This was Moms request so they could go to mass on Xmas eve, and I decided this was a fine arrangement as well).


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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by Tom
* Possible 2-on-2 meeting in person (each of us with our attorney) to negotiate the divorce details -- this is apparently pretty common

Hi Tom,

A 2-on-2 meeting sounds stressful. I'd have no interest sitting in a room with my ex for hours negotiating, and if I did, 1 attorney should be plenty to clarify what's reasonable and what's not.

Interesting perspective. At the time, my attorney said this was the most cost-effective way to go if we couldn't work it out together and then use mediation.

I said no to it many months ago, solely because of boundaries (I wasn't using the term at the time). It was only a few weeks past my STBXW and her attorney's gambit. I told my attorney to tell them no because I didn't trust my ex's attorney, that he probably had some strategy to try to get me angry or upset in living color as a way to gain advantage. The upset part was true; I knew that merely seeing her would make me weep. At that time she totally had the upper hand.

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Originally Posted by Steve85
Tom, remember the DB principle of focusing on what you can control. You cannot control what she says to other people. You cannot control how other people react to what she says. So stop focusing on that. True friends are true friends. Friends that evade you because STBXW said you were mean aren't true friends.

Boundaries are not about controlling others, it is about deciding before hand what you will do! The example I always give is a boundary I think every spouse should have:

-If my spouse physically cheats on me I will go file for D.

Notice, this is not a boundary that says "YOU CANNOT CHEAT ON ME". That would non-enforceable. What it does do is set what YOUR ACTION will be if the boundary is crossed.

-If my WAS starts treating me disrespectfully I will stand up for myself "I refuse to stand her and be spoken to like that.", and walkaway.

Notice, you can't control your spouse's behavior, but you can control your action once the boundary is crossed.

I am a big fan of email only communication for folks that are in the advanced stages of a sitch like yours. Then every word will be established. The other two (indirect through attorneys and 2 on 2) are fine too, but can get expensive in a hurry. Attorney hourly rates are ridiculous.

As usual, Steve, you are right on point and state things so clearly even a dense tech guy like me can understand it!

So I guess the only comment I have is understanding just why people spend so long "working on their boundaries." It seems like a relatively straightforward thing to do. Unless you mean, for example in my case, trying all types of communication out -- e.g, in-person meeting, facetime, phonecall, email, or text -- until you find out which ones you want to avoid.

Also, thanks for making so clear the issue of control. Wow that is really poignant now. I should only expend emotional energy over the things I can control and not worry about the others. OK. Now that I understand it in my head, let's see if I can live it.

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Originally Posted by may22
Hi Tom,
Steve gives good advice about how to distinguish boundaries from controlling behavior. You control you. That's it. But you can remove yourself from a situation where your boundaries are being crossed and you're being hurt. You don't need to say anything to enforce a boundary ahead of time. You just do what you need to do to protect yourself.

Your boundaries are going to be YOUR boundaries and they might be different from anyone else's, but that is for you to decide. I don't think anyone here should tell you what your boundaries should be.

What do you need for your own healing and progress? If a cold text message from her makes you weep and spin, then let her know you'd like to communicate exclusively by email and stop responding to her texts until she stops texting you, or block her. Figure out what you need and then protect that space for yourself.

This is really helpful, May22, thank you.

OK. Assuming that the boundaries I'm working on are only the ones with my STBXW, here is my first crack at them.

1) No one-on-one meetings. First, because I might weep and this, for me at least, is not what I want to do. Showing vulnerability and pain is not the way to go according to DB principles; also, I showed her massive amounts of both during the first 90 days after BD, and she was not moved at the time. Finally, there is the matter of her (false) accusation of violence toward her. If I am ever alone with her, without witnesses, she might well claim I threatened her and succeed in getting that restraining order.

2) No working things out in writing, at least for now. Sorry, this boundary is not so much a matter of pain but one of trying, finally, to get some level of control of the settlement process.

3) No verbal discussions. I am still pretty wounded. That means not over the phone and certainly no facetime.

4) Texting to coordinate the trivial is fine. When it come to the children, they are all adults and I will let them be the interface.

Originally Posted by may22

With your friends-- if I were you I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. You may be reading things into their responses that aren't meant that way. People sometimes feel uncomfortable about D and they may just not know what to say to you right now, not that they have heard anything from your W about you. Reach out when you're ready.

This is very good advice and I will do my best to not make judgments without direct evidence that someone has decided to turn against me.

Originally Posted by may22

Are you in IC? I spent a good amount of time with my IC defining my own boundaries for my own healing and emotional safety, and then working on enforcing them.

Yes, I've been in counseling since 3 weeks after D-Day. It has done wonders. We have not discussed boundaries yet but now that y'all are driving me that way, I will bring it up on Thursday.

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Originally Posted by Ready2Change

I didn't care if the kids were at my house Thanksgiving Thursday or Friday. As long as I was able to spend the day with them and that we alternated days each year. They were at my house on Thursday every other year.

Now that my kids are all out of the house, D19 asked about thanksgiving. I said I am fine following the same schedule as the divorce agreement to avoid consternation (one of those great words I learned from my lawyer) with her mother.

One exception to the alternating was the kids always had Christmas day with me and Christmas eve with their mother. (This was Moms request so they could go to mass on Xmas eve, and I decided this was a fine arrangement as well).

Originally Posted by may22

With your kids-- I agree with Steve to be as flexible as you can to support them. It is hard enough to deal with competing in-laws for holidays and I'm sure having freshly Ded parents adds a whole extra layer of difficulty to the mix, and they will be having a hard enough time dealing with it on their own. Have you talked with each of them about what they are thinking for the holidays? It may be best to understand where they are and what plans they've already made or are thinking of making, what their other obligations might be, before proposing something to your W (should you decide that is the best route to go). Note that if she's been the primary communicator with them about plans like this when you were M it may feel strange for you to jump into that role, but if I were you I'd far rather be active in the plans than wait for them to be made for you. Which very well might happen if you wait too long.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Arranging time with the kids for the holidays is going to be an issue for years. My advice is to bend-over backwards to accommodate your kids. Do not put a premium on the day, just the time spent. "Dad, mom is insisting on getting together for Christmas Eve, and we have my spouse's side on Christmas. Could we do Christmas with you on Saturday?" Accommodate that. Do not get into the game of "Your mom gets Christmas Eve she is more important to than I am!" Be the bigger person. The time with your kids (and grandkids assuming you have some) is the important thing, not the day. The problems always arise when pettiness rules the day. Remember, your adult kids are caught in the middle of juggling all of this. Make it as easy for them as possible.

Thanks to all of you for your holiday comments. This will be one of my easiest to handle!

Last year my STBXW colluded with my eldest daughter, who more or less sided with her mom, and got the three of them to spend Christmas Eve AND Christmas Day with her. It was incredibly hurtful. My kids were gone from 3 PM on 12/24 until noon on 12/26. It was a quiet and lonely house on Christmas Day. The pain was still so incredibly raw, and I was still on the receiving end of every salvo.

A year has passed and I am now ever so much stronger. And my kids are being fair this time. The ex gets them for Thanksgiving and I get them for Christmas. And I didn't have to lobby for it, they made the fair decision themselves.

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May22, does this sound like a good start for boundaries?

1) No one-on-one meetings. First, because I might weep and this, for me at least, is not what I want to do. Showing vulnerability and pain is not the way to go according to DB principles; also, I showed her massive amounts of both during the first 90 days after BD, and she was not moved at the time. Finally, there is the matter of her (false) accusation of violence toward her. If I am ever alone with her, without witnesses, she might well claim I threatened her and succeed in getting that restraining order.

2) No working things out in writing, at least for now. Sorry, this boundary is not so much a matter of pain but one of trying, finally, to get some level of control of the settlement process.

3) No verbal discussions. I am still pretty wounded. That means not over the phone and certainly no facetime.

4) Texting to coordinate the trivial is fine. When it come to the children, they are all adults and I will let them be the interface.

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Yo T. Please do not tell your W you can’t meet in person because you might weep.

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Originally Posted by tom_h
May22, does this sound like a good start for boundaries?

1) No one-on-one meetings. First, because I might weep and this, for me at least, is not what I want to do. Showing vulnerability and pain is not the way to go according to DB principles; also, I showed her massive amounts of both during the first 90 days after BD, and she was not moved at the time. Finally, there is the matter of her (false) accusation of violence toward her. If I am ever alone with her, without witnesses, she might well claim I threatened her and succeed in getting that restraining order.

2) No working things out in writing, at least for now. Sorry, this boundary is not so much a matter of pain but one of trying, finally, to get some level of control of the settlement process.

3) No verbal discussions. I am still pretty wounded. That means not over the phone and certainly no facetime.

4) Texting to coordinate the trivial is fine. When it come to the children, they are all adults and I will let them be the interface.



Here are ways to enforce:

(1/3/4)
W:"We need to meet to discuss bla bla bla"
H:"I believe it is best that we communicate via Email and Texting for simple items."
W:"Bla bla bla bla..."
H:Text"I sent you and email"

2)It is fine to postpone so you have time to process and make decisions.

W:"I sent you an email"
H"I received your proposal. I will review it and let you know what I decide"
W:"I need you to go faster"
H:"I am still reviewing."


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Originally Posted by tom_h
May22, does this sound like a good start for boundaries?

Hi Tom,
I'm by no means the boundary expert, but let me give it a go.

Originally Posted by tom_h
1) No one-on-one meetings. First, because I might weep and this, for me at least, is not what I want to do. Showing vulnerability and pain is not the way to go according to DB principles; also, I showed her massive amounts of both during the first 90 days after BD, and she was not moved at the time. Finally, there is the matter of her (false) accusation of violence toward her. If I am ever alone with her, without witnesses, she might well claim I threatened her and succeed in getting that restraining order.

OK... so your boundary is that you don't want to see her in person, or you are OK seeing her in person if there are others around? This kind of meshes with #3 as well... and then if you also aren't working things out in writing (#2) and only texting on trivial matters (#4)... how are you imagining you will communicate with her? It seems to me that you simply don't want to see or communicate with her, really, period. Am I reading that right? I think that is a fine boundary. A lot of people find going NC is really helpful for healing and detachment.

If that is really your primary boundary-- that conversing with her in person, on the phone, on Facetime, etc. is painful for you and you are trying to avoid it-- then I might focus on how you can avoid talking with her through any medium as much as possible. There are a lot of strategies discussed here to maintain NC, how to respond to certain types of communication and which types need no response. She'll learn.

I can't recall exactly where you are in the D process and what really needs to be dealt with right now vs. can wait. Do you know what you need out of the D process? Can you talk with your L about how he/she recommends you move forward, with you trying to minimize contact with her? Are there discussions that need to take place by a certain time? How can you structure the interactions that need to happen to protect yourself as much as possible?

Originally Posted by tom_h
2) No working things out in writing, at least for now. Sorry, this boundary is not so much a matter of pain but one of trying, finally, to get some level of control of the settlement process.

So this feels more like a tactic than a boundary. I think it is okay to set this as a tactic, I just wouldn't call it a boundary. (Also wondering what that means for how you might actually get things settled-- you want to do it all through your attorneys, is that right?) Does this also mean you don't want to correspond with her via email at all?

Originally Posted by tom_h
3) No verbal discussions. I am still pretty wounded. That means not over the phone and certainly no facetime.
OK. Easy. Don't call her, don't pick up the phone when she does. If she leaves you a VM you can decide whether or not to listen to it.

Originally Posted by tom_h
4) Texting to coordinate the trivial is fine. When it come to the children, they are all adults and I will let them be the interface.
OK. So, if there are topics you are okay texting with her about, maybe you can figure out what those are and interact with her via text as necessary to work them out. A lot of people prefer email over texting, though, because reading them and knowing they arrived is much more under your control (you decide to check your email) rather than getting an alert on your phone, maybe jarring you out of a good space.

RTC has good suggestions for how to enforce. Let us know how it all goes.


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Originally Posted by LH19
Yo T. Please do not tell your W you can’t meet in person because you might weep.

Roger that. I sure hope my ex isn't already here on DB, too.

However, if she had been, you all would have convinced her that our marriage was recoverable. Because I'm finished with Michele's DR book, and my ex and I sound just like one of the example couples Michele writes about.

But ... her attorney has scheduled a deposition in a couple weeks. It is mandatory, I cannot miss it. She will be there. I will have to answer questions for several hours trying to keep a straight face. It will not be easy.

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T,

Your W wouldn’t be on this site because she doesn’t want to fix the marriage. There is nothing we or anybody can do to change her mind. I suggest you really dig down deep and look at your role in this so this does not happen to you again in the future.

Onward and upward.

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Originally Posted by tom_h
Originally Posted by LH19
Yo T. Please do not tell your W you can’t meet in person because you might weep.

Roger that. I sure hope my ex isn't already here on DB, too.

However, if she had been, you all would have convinced her that our marriage was recoverable. Because I'm finished with Michele's DR book, and my ex and I sound just like one of the example couples Michele writes about.

But ... her attorney has scheduled a deposition in a couple weeks. It is mandatory, I cannot miss it. She will be there. I will have to answer questions for several hours trying to keep a straight face. It will not be easy.


I think my W did find this site. I am almost positive she's been here. There is nothing you can do about that. Maybe you should change your screen name to something more obfuscated?


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Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by tom_h
1) No one-on-one meetings. First, because I might weep and this, for me at least, is not what I want to do. Showing vulnerability and pain is not the way to go according to DB principles; also, I showed her massive amounts of both during the first 90 days after BD, and she was not moved at the time. Finally, there is the matter of her (false) accusation of violence toward her. If I am ever alone with her, without witnesses, she might well claim I threatened her and succeed in getting that restraining order.

OK... so your boundary is that you don't want to see her in person, or you are OK seeing her in person if there are others around? This kind of meshes with #3 as well... and then if you also aren't working things out in writing (#2) and only texting on trivial matters (#4)... how are you imagining you will communicate with her? It seems to me that you simply don't want to see or communicate with her, really, period. Am I reading that right? I think that is a fine boundary. A lot of people find going NC is really helpful for healing and detachment.

If that is really your primary boundary-- that conversing with her in person, on the phone, on Facetime, etc. is painful for you and you are trying to avoid it-- then I might focus on how you can avoid talking with her through any medium as much as possible. There are a lot of strategies discussed here to maintain NC, how to respond to certain types of communication and which types need no response. She'll learn.

I can't recall exactly where you are in the D process and what really needs to be dealt with right now vs. can wait. Do you know what you need out of the D process? Can you talk with your L about how he/she recommends you move forward, with you trying to minimize contact with her? Are there discussions that need to take place by a certain time? How can you structure the interactions that need to happen to protect yourself as much as possible?

For now, I don't want to see her in person. Even with others. There are multiple reasons, but I am not sure I could get through it without weeping.

We saw each other two times after D-Day/BD. Then she and her attorney devised their little strategy and went nuclear on me; I didn't have an attorney yet and they thought I would buckle. But I rebounded and got good advice, and their gambit failed. She knows that poisoned the well. That's on her.

I saw her once since then. Through her attorney she asked to pick up some clothes, and we arranged a date and time. She brought two witnesses, I had one. Talk about the dumbest, stupidest situation ever. We had a good marriage (at least I thought so), never a smidgen of anger or fearful behavior, and a strong family, and now we have to have freaking witnesses to do something simple like pick up clothing. Sheesh.

I have not seen her since. She has her own place (I am not supposed to know where it is, so she can maintain the farce that she is in "fear" of me). It is close by but probaby in a neighboring town. I expect she is grocery shopping at places I will never frequent and doesn't even go to the same Starbucks and Target anymore because she doesn't want to bump into me.

We are 13 months into the divorce and about halfway through administratively, although the pace could be picked up and it could be finished in early spring. My attorney is actually OK with direct contact, as she is not the type who is trying to ratchet up her billings. In fact, I did send an email this weekend at my attorney's request. But it was all business.

As for protecting myself, I have accomplished that by just not answering, since maybe February this year. She had begun sending little easy messages like "when do you want to list the house?" and "can I come by to pick up some clothes?" I said it earlier, perhaps it was petulant of me, but I never answered. You see, I wrote HER extensively during the first 90 days and she never said a peep. Nothing. Yes, I was baring my soul (I didn't know about DB yet) and not talking to her was torture, yet she refused. She walked out thinking she had all the power and all the control. She wanted a quick divorce so she could run with her share of the assets and home equity. So by me delaying, and slowing things down, I was at least able to win that battle for now. Now I have some control.

Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by tom_h
2) No working things out in writing, at least for now. Sorry, this boundary is not so much a matter of pain but one of trying, finally, to get some level of control of the settlement process.

So this feels more like a tactic than a boundary. I think it is okay to set this as a tactic, I just wouldn't call it a boundary. (Also wondering what that means for how you might actually get things settled-- you want to do it all through your attorneys, is that right?) Does this also mean you don't want to correspond with her via email at all?

Yes I corresponded with her recently, but pure business. About healthcare coverage because this is enrollment month.

Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by tom_h
3) No verbal discussions. I am still pretty wounded. That means not over the phone and certainly no facetime.
OK. Easy. Don't call her, don't pick up the phone when she does. If she leaves you a VM you can decide whether or not to listen to it.

It's interesting, she sent me a text a few months back that was a photo of her. It didn't begin with "Tom ..." but said something like, "look at this outfit!" I replied, "[STBXW], I don't think you meant this for me" and she said, "you're right." But making a blunder like that, even an innocent one, is not her style. I think it was deliberate. I think she was testing me to see if I would jump at the chance to communicate with her.

Had it been between September and January, I would have. But by May of this year, that urge had passed.

As for why she would want to communicate with me, it's possible she wanted to declare a truce and work this out together without lawyers. I might do that. But we're adults, we don't need to beat around the bush about important things. She started this all, if she wants to start rolling up her sleeves she can ask me directly. She knows I'm a technical man and don't appreciate little hints; approach me directly.

Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by tom_h
4) Texting to coordinate the trivial is fine. When it come to the children, they are all adults and I will let them be the interface.
OK. So, if there are topics you are okay texting with her about, maybe you can figure out what those are and interact with her via text as necessary to work them out. A lot of people prefer email over texting, though, because reading them and knowing they arrived is much more under your control (you decide to check your email) rather than getting an alert on your phone, maybe jarring you out of a good space.

RTC has good suggestions for how to enforce. Let us know how it all goes.

I think I explained it all above. I don't want to discuss the R at all. I am not ready to grieve the marriage with her, like a lot of former couples do. I will not be able to hold back. I guess that means I haven't fully grieved the marriage myself. Others here on DB have said it's time to let go but I'm not wired that way. Like swans, I mated for life. I will marry again, of that I am certain, and the pain is not as searing as it was, but it's still there.

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Originally Posted by Steve85

I think my W did find this site. I am almost positive she's been here. There is nothing you can do about that. Maybe you should change your screen name to something more obfuscated?

Good idea. Will I lose all my threads? How do I reach out to the mods about that?

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Originally Posted by LH19
T,

Your W wouldn’t be on this site because she doesn’t want to fix the marriage. There is nothing we or anybody can do to change her mind. I suggest you really dig down deep and look at your role in this so this does not happen to you again in the future.

Onward and upward.

Believe me, I am trying to figure things out. I wrote about my 180s earlier. But the most important one is to not neglect my beloved's feelings. Ever. Also to communicate. I have been working on them through intensive discussions with others, not just my therapist.

It's too bad, my STBXW would like the tom 2.0. But she spent the last few years convincing herself I was beyond repair and fell out of love with me. She succumbed to the social messages that Michele decries, that the only way to save oneself is to divorce. Too bad. Her next husband will not have learned DB principles and she will find herself in the same situation.

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Dude, you are totally reading waaay too much into everything. You are spinning. Calm your mind, relax...

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Originally Posted by tom_h


It's too bad, my STBXW would like the tom 2.0. But she spent the last few years convincing herself I was beyond repair and fell out of love with me. She succumbed to the social messages that Michele decries, that the only way to save oneself is to divorce. Too bad. Her next husband will not have learned DB principles and she will find herself in the same situation.


This is why pressure and pursuit never works in these situations! The things you do at the beginning of getting to know someone never works when the person already knows you so well. So many LBSs struggle with this. "Well, I won them originally by these behaviors........." Those behaviors will not work in these situations because there is too much water under the bridge. What can help is to back off and give them space. Let them miss you. The old "absence makes the heart grow fonder".

Now sometimes there is too much water under that bridge, or there is new water under the bridge (OP), and that means no approach is going to save the MR. But even in those cases the backing off and focusing on yourself is the right approach.

So whether there is hope or no hope of saving the MR, focusing on yourself, backing off and giving them time and space is the right approach!


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Originally Posted by Vapo
Dude, you are totally reading waaay too much into everything. You are spinning. Calm your mind, relax...

OK, I stand chastised. Call it a curse. But I do overanalyze everything. Can't help it. It's the mark of a technical man, and a soft-hearted one at that.

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Originally Posted by Steve85
Originally Posted by tom_h
It's too bad, my STBXW would like the tom 2.0. But she spent the last few years convincing herself I was beyond repair and fell out of love with me. She succumbed to the social messages that Michele decries, that the only way to save oneself is to divorce. Too bad. Her next husband will not have learned DB principles and she will find herself in the same situation.

This is why pressure and pursuit never works in these situations! The things you do at the beginning of getting to know someone never works when the person already knows you so well. So many LBSs struggle with this. "Well, I won them originally by these behaviors........." Those behaviors will not work in these situations because there is too much water under the bridge. What can help is to back off and give them space. Let them miss you. The old "absence makes the heart grow fonder".

Now sometimes there is too much water under that bridge, or there is new water under the bridge (OP), and that means no approach is going to save the MR. But even in those cases the backing off and focusing on yourself is the right approach.

So whether there is hope or no hope of saving the MR, focusing on yourself, backing off and giving them time and space is the right approach!

Believe me, Steve, I am on board with you. With everyone. I do understand and I believe it to be true. I got religion!

What's crazy is when I look back, over those first three months, I see how I made all the mistakes you mention. Sending sweet loving emails and letters. Sending her a couple of songs by a lovely Christian couple about failure and "keeping the light on for me." Telling her that I would change any behavior, go to any counselor she chose, or accept any type of trial separation she wanted.

In the first month, she and her lawyer tried to play a dirty trick on me (it would have resulted in a judge's order to boot me from the house) but I didn't fall for it; I wrote her an email a few weeks later telling her I forgave her, and understand why she might have wanted to try it. She never replied to a single email or text. I had the kids for that first Thanksgiving (60 days after D-Day) and invited her to come, for just food and laughs, no discussion; she never answered. I invited her to my choral performances (I am a choral musician as an avocation and had recently jointed a very prestigious chorale) but never got even a hint of a reply.

I didn't do anything dumb like call her sisters or best friends; I knew exactly which ones would have known everything in advance.

About the only thing I didn't do is send her photos from our wedding by text! But then again, even I am not that much of a numbskull.

To me it was the utmost in sincerity. To her it was too little too late. She had checked out months, perhaps years earlier, and had been pushed to the breaking point.

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Originally Posted by Rose888
[quote=tom_h]
I'm sorry you are in this situation.

The two statements I put in bold seem to contradict each other. Not communicating well is a significant issue. Have you considered that your wife might not be talking because she has given up trying to communicate with you?

Do you have any specifics of what your wife felt was not working in the communication between the two of you? You mentioned wanting to improve yourself for your next relationship. Given what you've shared here, I would start with exploring what was wrong with the communication in your marriage--thinking from your wife's perspective as much as you can--and learning better communication habits.

Also, have you read up on the Five Love Languages? What is your love language? What is your wife's?

Rose, can we pick up on this question that you asked me two months ago? I think I'm now ready to answer it and I would value your perspective.

I took the love languages quiz and found out that my top love language is physical touch. Close behind were Words of Affirmation and Quality Time. The three of them were almost tied. It's interesting, I took them while discussing it with a friend who knows me well. I don't think that Words of Affirmation would have been near the top until the last few years, when I had some personal setbacks; but I had turned 50 and all of a sudden, being Mr Strong Guy wasn't as important and I needed affirmation as to who I really was.

You asked what my STBXW's love languages would have been; I know for certain it would have been Acts of Service.

There is no doubt that neither of us attended to the other's love language, especially during the last 5-10 years before she walked out.

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Tom,

I’m going to give you my opinion because I’m trying to help you. Instead of digging into your Ws love language I think you really need to dig deep into your true feelings about women. You have offended a few women on this board with your misogynistic comments. Your W not speaking to you at all is a red flag. Most WWs would like to be friends if the LBS would let them. I don’t think your W is a typical WW as you view her to be and I certainly think she may have a different story to tell.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Tom,

I’m going to give you my opinion because I’m trying to help you. Instead of digging into your Ws love language I think you really need to dig deep into your true feelings about women. You have offended a few women on this board with your misogynistic comments. Your W not speaking to you at all is a red flag. Most WWs would like to be friends if the LBS would let them. I don’t think your W is a typical WW as you view her to be and I certainly think she may have a different story to tell.

Interesting. "Misogyny" means hatred, aversion to, or prejudice against women. I have none of them. I adore my two daughters and adored my wife until she walked out. So perhaps you can prove such a dramatic claim, using my own words. Remember the definition.

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Hi Tom,

If you’re curious and want to make changes, given you’ve received a few such comments, perhaps you could take an initial stab at what you say that may come off that way? If no luck, Id be happy to help later when I have a few. Accepting faults and making changes is a slow, slow process!

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Originally Posted by tom_h
Interesting. "Misogyny" means hatred, aversion to, or prejudice against women. I have none of them. I adore my two daughters and adored my wife until she walked out. So perhaps you can prove such a dramatic claim, using my own words. Remember the definition.


So Tom here are some quotes from yours and other threads and I am doing to help you see that you are playing the victim role to a "T"

You say this:

She talked about counseling for years. And, like an idiot, I was pretty dismissive. Mostly because I didn't have the time! My clients, and my bosses, would not understand if I couldn't take week-long trips because I had to sit down with a therapist on Wednesday afternoons! I did solo therapy once, during a job that didn't have big travel demands, and it did nothing for me. Nothing. I stopped after about 4 sessions.

Then you say:

For one, I think she was afraid I would talk over her, which was a legitimate concern of hers -- before the divorce filing. Yes, I was the dominant male and no doubt that is one thing that she wanted and loved at first but rebelled against after so many years. The second reason she wouldn't talk -- I'm guessing here -- is that she knows she doesn't have a good answer to why she didn't try to work things out years ago; why she didn't do the decent and proper thing and get us into counseling; why she wasn't honest and open and tell me at least once that "our marriage isn't working out."

You again act like you don't know why and here are some of your quotes:

"She is not an especially sophisticated person so talking rarely fixes things for her. I know that sounds contrary -- she wanted communication but communication didn't work so well for her -- but it's true."

"She said a few times that I treated her like she was a piece of furniture."

"Problem is, with me, my STBXW thought I was too dominant, too male, too dismissive of her thoughts."

"If you asked my ex, I expect she might say that I was emotionally abusive; I found evidence that she might have concluded such."

Now for the misogynistic quotes:

"As for the timing when I begin to date again, thanks for your perspective. I think the right approach is to start slowly, tasting a lot of the wares out there, and make good choices. There's more I could say but probably not here."

"A woman's sex drive is always strongest when she wants a man, or wants a child with a man. A woman's sex drive usually (not always) wanes after having children. Male LBS are always susceptible to this trap."

"Stay-at-home moms tend to let things go."


Look Tom we can all do better. I hope this sheds some light on what happened and how you can improve in the future.

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I dislike when people are labeled. People often do it as a tactic to shut down opposition or to win an argument. Instead of labeling him a misogynist, maybe we can respond to his individual posts and propose a better way of thinking.

I haven't read all of Tom's posts, but I did read some of his recent posts. I didn't see much that would make me think he's a misogynist--more like somebody who is deeply hurt and feels betrayed. There was one that made me cringe. It was his response to scout12. It wasn't so much where he was coming from, but I think Steve had a good response.

Quote
It doesn't have to be gender specific. A husband can also change things for the benefit of his W. I think this is what you were getting at in your response to Scout. (For full disclosure, I am devoutly Christian, but unfortunately the "man is the head of the woman" belief is scoffed at in modern western societies.) The bald, Texan TV psychologist likes to say that if you want a better marriage, be a betters spouse! It takes someone that is deeply flawed (sociopath, psychopath, narcissist) to not respond positively to positive changes. So yes, being a better W can improve the marriage. Being a better H can improve the marriage.


People see the part about what a wife should do for her husband, but often forget what a husband should do for his wife. And vice versa. A husband should love his wife as he does himself, as Christ loves his Church. He must always, publicly and privately, honor his wife. He must protect her and her dignity. He must provide her spiritual leadership. And many more.

As husbands, I'm sure we've all failed our wives at some time.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Now for the misogynistic quotes:

"As for the timing when I begin to date again, thanks for your perspective. I think the right approach is to start slowly, tasting a lot of the wares out there, and make good choices. There's more I could say but probably not here."

"A woman's sex drive is always strongest when she wants a man, or wants a child with a man. A woman's sex drive usually (not always) wanes after having children. Male LBS are always susceptible to this trap."

"Stay-at-home moms tend to let things go."

Look Tom we can all do better. I hope this sheds some light on what happened and how you can improve in the future.


Yeah, the first one is something best left unsaid--even if there are both divorced men and women who probably feel the same way. smile

The mistake in the second one is speaking in absolutes.

I'm not even sure what the third one is relating to. What do they let go? I doubt stay-at-home Moms are all like-minded. Treat each person as an individual. I think Tom is guilting in labeling groups of people--which I just defended him against. smile

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Originally Posted by LH19

Now for the misogynistic quotes:

"As for the timing when I begin to date again, thanks for your perspective. I think the right approach is to start slowly, tasting a lot of the wares out there, and make good choices. There's more I could say but probably not here."

"A woman's sex drive is always strongest when she wants a man, or wants a child with a man. A woman's sex drive usually (not always) wanes after having children. Male LBS are always susceptible to this trap."

"Stay-at-home moms tend to let things go."

Look Tom we can all do better. I hope this sheds some light on what happened and how you can improve in the future.

Well, I got your Irish up and you must have spent an hour doing your homework!

You've not proven I hate women. But you've proven I have opinions, sometimes blunt ones. For that, yes, I am guilty!

For your information: Quote #1 came from a friend who separated a number of years ago, around age 55. Would you be overreacting the same way -- screaming at women "Misandry"!! -- if a cougar friend of yours talked about picking up younger men ("e.g., sampling the wares") at a pickup bar? Of course not! You'd claim she was exercising her sexual freedom. Quote #2 is my personal experience; maybe I shouldn't have generalized it but other friends made the same observation and ... sheesh, I've written a lot of words here! Quote #3 is from my own ex-spouse! She made the comment about herself and some of her friends, also SAHMs. It's common sense; the act of staying home with children, especially three of them, and managing them full-time, is a sacrificial act. You would expect people to invest less time in themselves.

Call me blunt, call me un-PC, or whatever. I use colorful language. None of that makes me hateful toward women. And I have never bowed to, or cowed to, the language police.

[P.S.: Sorry, I just stereotyped the Irish with my colorful language.]

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The definition of misogyny is not only hatred and nothing but hatred towards women. Hatred, dislike OR ingrained prejudice toward women is the definition. And I can't see anyone here screaming "misogynist" at you. Ginger said she can sense misogyny and LH pointed to some misogynistic comments.

Saying you can't be that because you adore your two daughters is kind of like people who say they can't be racist because they have black friends.

Quote two is your personal experience you say and "maybe you shouldn't have generalized"? Changing that sentence to begin with would have made a difference. "My personal experience and some of my friends have been, rather than "A womans sex drive is always strongest" would make a world of difference. That's not being language police. We are not correcting you grammar here, one sentence makes sense, the other is borderline outrageous.

If one person was saying this, fine but several of us have noticed and as you say, call you out on it so as CW said, maybe time to self reflect and consider this can come across as more than just being blunt.


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Yo Tommy I don't think you hate women, I just think you don't understand women.

You were brought up in a time when a man's only role was to provide for his family.

I bet that is how you were raised and that is how you acted in your marriage. I don't think you intentionally tried to hurt your W but my guess is she just wanted to heard and understood.

None of us were perfect spouses or we wouldn't be here unless we married sociopaths.

We are all here to learn and grow because we don't ever want to go through this again.

Onward and upward Tommy!

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Originally Posted by BenB
The definition of misogyny is not only hatred and nothing but hatred towards women. Hatred, dislike OR ingrained prejudice toward women is the definition. And I can't see anyone here screaming "misogynist" at you. Ginger said she can sense misogyny and LH pointed to some misogynistic comments.


Well, you, LH, and Ginger all said it--with you saying MANY people have pointed out his misogynist posts. Terms like "misogynist" and "racist" shouldn't be used lightly, but there are. In my day the term basically meant "sexist pig", but it was used sparingly and the target was generally a "sexist pig." smile

Then again, Tom's most recent post was quite combative, so maybe I should go back into hiding. smile I get that he may feel people are piling on though.

I hope we can all learn from each other's point of view though. Like LH said, we all live and learn.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Yo Tommy I don't think you hate women, I just think you don't understand women.

You were brought up in a time when a man's only role was to provide for his family.

I bet that is how you were raised and that is how you acted in your marriage. I don't think you intentionally tried to hurt your W but my guess is she just wanted to heard and understood.

None of us were perfect spouses or we wouldn't be here unless we married sociopaths.

We are all here to learn and grow because we don't ever want to go through this again.

Onward and upward Tommy!


I have to know, did you call him Tommy to see if you could get him riled up? smile Do we know he likes to be called Tommy? I know some guys named Tom who hate being called Tommy.

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Lol. Yo Harvey. Had no clue.

Signed

LHY lol.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Yo Tommy I don't think you hate women, I just think you don't understand women.

You were brought up in a time when a man's only role was to provide for his family.

I bet that is how you were raised and that is how you acted in your marriage. I don't think you intentionally tried to hurt your W but my guess is she just wanted to heard and understood.

None of us were perfect spouses or we wouldn't be here unless we married sociopaths.

We are all here to learn and grow because we don't ever want to go through this again.

Onward and upward Tommy!

Well, LH. I don't know whether you had a change of heart of just wanted to be conciliatory for the sake of things. It doesn't really matter anyway!

Read back a bit and you'll see that I posted my 180s. That's where my head is at.

As for my sich, here it is in a nutshell. I couldn't have written this back in August when I joined DB, by the way.

Met XW in my mid 20s and were married two years later. She was attracted to me because I gave off power and confidence; I had an excellent tech education and was already in leadership roles. While my gift was that, hers was relationship. Everyone, everyone loved XW. Said she was a doll, the sweetest woman on the planet. I was fortunate to have snared her. We were very dissimilar but we complimented each other. She wanted to be a SAHM, raising children in a house with a white picket fence; I didn't need that per se but I was so smitten with her charm, her beauty, her ease with people. I was OK with it if the woman I loved wanted to be a mom full-time.

As for me? I might be technical, and excessively logical (and blunt!), but I am also a sweet tender man. [Yes, I'll convince you LH another time!] Old fashioned, too, but that mostly relates to culture, Americana, and -- yes -- vive la difference, as the French would say.

But the seeds of the failure of the marriage were probably already there. I am Mediterranean background -- romantic and sensual -- she is Scottish background, more reserved. I had thought that marriage would make her more comfortable at the romantic and sensual side, but it did the opposite. We had symptoms of a SSM within the first six months; I was too much a nice guy to make too big a deal about it -- who wants to go to counseling 6 months into a marriage when she's the sweetest girl ever? I just toughened myself up and moved on.

Time went on, years went by, and neither of us attended to essential needs. She wanted acts of service. I wanted acts of romantic, sensual love. Our marriage was very functional during many of those years. But we got by, as many many couples do, we had many good years. LH, you caught that comment about her feeling like she was part of the furniture. That's on her. Sometimes I would be dismissive of a comment she made, too much in fact, and rather than talking it through she would sulk, and hurt privately. My Italian background is such that you challenge me, don't let me get away with it, and I apologize! But she acted like she was afraid. But feeling like she is part of the furniture is on her. She had me all those years and never really figured me out!

She was pushed over the edge by some very unique stresses in my personal life that resulted in lawsuits in 2016. I beat them, after three years, yet suffered from some mild depression over those years. I retreated into my man cave a lot during that time. I did not take it out on her, ever! There were some financial stresses although we still have a net worth that would be the envy of many others. Still, the money issue terrified her.

The week before the lawsuits were dismissed she walked out. She said the stress was too great. She never said she didn't love me, but that was very evident as a few months passed. I know her ever so well; she was traumatized by the divorce filing, to be sure, but after 90 days she would have convinced herself that "I can live without him" and "I don't need him."

What could I have done better? Attend to her love languages for one, which is acts of service. Surprise her with dinner. Do the laundry early on Saturday morning before she woke up. Make the bed before she gets out of the shower. Such small acts, yet to her they would be so huge.

Isn't it funny that a couple can spend years, even decades, not attending to each other's needs yet still moving along in the marriage? That's what Michelle's DB book acknowledges, that even smart sensitive people can be so clueless, so stuck in their ways, for so long.

I suppose the only difference, in essence, is that I was in the marriage for life, she wasn't. She had to leave. I also happen to believe that our marriage was salvageable, now that I have read DB and spend four months on the forum here. But it takes two to tango and she did not want to tango with me anymore.

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Tom,

I did not change my mind but I am here to try to help.

What I’m saying is if you go back and read through your threads and you still are confused as to why your W left I am not sure what I can tell you. This is also your side of the story which I’m sure is only half the truth.

A woman wants someone to listen to them and be able to have a voice in the relationship so she can feel safe and comfortable. She doesn’t want to feel dismissed and unappreciated.

I get it. She’s was fulfilling your needs so you didn’t fulfill hers. Well guess what you’re here and she’s not so who loses?

I’m not trying to call you out Tom these are things that I’m learning too. So we can sit here and play the blame game or we can learn to be better.

I’m not gonna blow sunshine up your a$$ Tom. I know why you are here. I also know you’re in a lot of pain and I do have compassion for that and wish that on no one.

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I'm curious about the way in which you responded to the comment that you were a misogynist.

Rather than say, "Hmm. It appears that more than one person on this forum sees something repellant about the way I talk about women. I wonder what they are seeing that I'm not?" you quote a dictionary definition at them and ask them to prove their claims.

Is that a typical response for you? Is that how you responded to comments from your wife?


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I suspect that this:

Quote
some very unique stresses in my personal life that resulted in lawsuits in 2016.


is the heart of your problem. You've skated over this issue in several different comments. Lawsuits of a personal nature (rather than professional or financial) sound quite troubling. Three years is a long time to hide away from your problems in a mancave. I wonder how much your wife was trying to reach you during this time before she just gave up.


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Quote
[/quote]
Originally Posted by harvey
[quote=BenB]The definition of misogyny is not only hatred and nothing but hatred towards women. Hatred, dislike OR ingrained prejudice toward women is the definition. And I can't see anyone here screaming "misogynist" at you. Ginger said she can sense misogyny and LH pointed to some misogynistic comments.


Well, you, LH, and Ginger all said it--with you saying MANY people have pointed out his misogynist posts. Terms like "misogynist" and "racist" shouldn't be used lightly, but there are. In my day the term basically meant "sexist pig", but it was used sparingly and the target was generally a "sexist pig." smile

Then again, Tom's most recent post was quite combative, so maybe I should go back into hiding. smile I get that he may feel people are piling on though.

I hope we can all learn from each other's point of view though. Like LH said, we all live and learn.



Harvey, just because we point out misogynist comments doesn't mean we claim he is misogynist in all aspects of life towards every single woman at all times. And neither LH or I have claimed he is a woman hater which is what Tom was asking us to prove.

My comment was also referring to his quote

Quote
Would you be overreacting the same way -- screaming at women "Misandry"!! -- if a cougar friend of yours talked about picking up younger men


To me that sounds like he is reducing our opinions to overreacting and screaming at him. Belittling others in a way.

You are right, the term misogynist shouldn't be used unless called for but in this case, perhaps not your opinion, there seems to be a pattern that many, or sorry, several posters have pointed out. I do agree it seems Tom feels like we are piling on and reacts by becoming defensive and fires back at every argument instead of doing some self reflection. Most of us have been criticized heavily for our actions and words during our sitches. I have yet to see anyone take it this personally and argue back.

Even Another Stander whom I consider a friend, said some things to me after I discovered my XW infidelity that initially hurt. Words that were harsh. Did I argue with him? No, I reflected on what he and Steve said and used the opportunity to grow

The term racist shouldn't be used lightly either and I am sure you are not thinking I called him one? I did, however, compare both arguments and rightfully so.

I wish every person well and this forum is the right place to be for people in our situations and the greatest gift I have gotten so far is to learn how to validate. Can you see how these posts paint a picture of someone who invalidates more often than validates? I hope I am wrong of course.

Time to start a new thread...




Last edited by BenB; 12/04/20 10:38 AM.

Me: 38
Stbxw: 35
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ONS confirmed Sept 7, 2019
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Tom,

One more think I’d like to add. Your W tried to get you into counseling, waited until your children were out of school and doesn’t appear to have another male.

That is a LBS dream for most of us.

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Last edited by job; 12/05/20 03:46 PM. Reason: added link to new thread

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