[quote=tom_h] My wife will never see the new me. She has made that quite clear. But there will be another Mrs Tom someday. She will be the lucky beneficiary. [quote]
My W has actually said to me how unfair it is that some other woman will get to benefit from the improved version of me. Even more annoying is that her bf before me changed into the perfect guy (she wouldn't take him back when he tried), and she laments that his new W got the best version of him too. I wanted to throttle her and say, "well then don't let history repeat itself then!".
Instead she has chosen to an OM who doesn't seem to be much of a man at all who defines himself by his sexual prowess.
Me: 41 W:42 T: 14 M: 11 S: 6
"What happened happened, and couldn't have happened any other way...because it didn't"
My wife will never see the new me. She has made that quite clear. But there will be another Mrs Tom someday. She will be the lucky beneficiary.
My W has actually said to me how unfair it is that some other woman will get to benefit from the improved version of me. Even more annoying is that her bf before me changed into the perfect guy (she wouldn't take him back when he tried), and she laments that his new W got the best version of him too. I wanted to throttle her and say, "well then don't let history repeat itself then!"
Instead she has chosen to an OM who doesn't seem to be much of a man at all who defines himself by his sexual prowess.
Once you get past your pain, OB, I suppose you will see the supreme irony in her behavior. All I can do is shake my head on your behalf.
You posted on someone else's thread asking me about boundaries in your situation... yes, boundaries are important for everyone, no matter what their situation is. I'd read the boundary thread carefully if you haven't already, and then spend some time thinking about whether your behavior is there to protect you (healthy boundary) or there to control your W's behavior (not a boundary, but a controlling behavior. I read a lot of controlling tendencies in your descriptions of your interactions with your W. Something to think about.).
When I read your above question, it feels to me, though I might be reading this incorrectly, that you are not responding to her emails to punish her and feel in control of the situation, not to protect yourself because any interaction with her is painful. And, you're hurt that her communication is all business, not about your relationship.
You might read through Unchien's threads. He's going through a pretty nasty D right now and his W made up some terrible accusations. I thought of his thread (and DnJ's on the MLC board, whose W made an announcement on Thanksgiving and walked out the door and that was it) when reading through yours, as situations you might identify with. I read earlier you feeling the need to understand why your W did what she did (I can identify with this too). I think Unchien's thread might really help you to let go, and also how to set boundaries to protect yourself without spending time or energy thinking how enforcing those boundaries might be perceived by your W. He's secure in knowing that he is doing the right thing and has let go of the need to understand or control his W's narrative.
I guess in your exact situation, I would first understand what your own boundaries are around communication. If any communication would send you into a tailspin, keep ignoring her emails for your own protection. But, if it wouldn't hurt you to respond that she can have the old knife set and leave it out for her to pick up, why wouldn't you do that? Wouldn't you want her to treat you the same way? Modeling the kind of behavior you'd like to see, and being true to yourself-- not being petty towards her just to prove some point or because she was petty towards you first-- seems like the right thing to do (as long as you can do it whilst still enforcing your own boundaries). It takes two to tango. Truly dropping the rope means not ignoring her in order to control the situation or punish her. It means you're fine, no matter what, and a polite request from her doesn't anger you, or depress you because it isn't the communication you want to hear from her.
hang in there, Tom. I know this is all really, really hard. But you'll get through it.
May22, thanks for weighing in. I'll read the other posts as you suggest, but perhaps you can set me straight as to how the boundaries will apply in my case. Here's how my STBXW and I will interact in upcoming months:
* Direct communications via email or text, if we mutually decide to do it * Indirect communications via our attorneys * Possible 2-on-2 meeting in person (each of us with our attorney) to negotiate the divorce details -- this is apparently pretty common * Arranging time with the children (all legal adults from age 19 to 26) over the holidays -- to date, we haven't communicated directly about this, all has been through the kids * Friends around town (she has been talking trash about me -- I get evasive replies from otherwise great friends who I've known for 20 years)
How else would boundaries come into play?
As for your point about me possibly being petty ... well, yes, I did say something similar to that. But it is true that just about all of my interactions with her have been depressing since she became a WAW. Her rejection of me has been total, has been absolute. The games she had her attorney play on me hurt powerfully. I am a moral man, I will not pay her back or exchange salvo for salvo. Maybe I didn't stress that enough in the more recent posts. But just getting the most simple texts -- the most recent was last March -- makes me weep. So the issue of fair seems to pale against the question -- what is the right thing for me? Do I owe her an easy process moving forward?
Tom, remember the DB principle of focusing on what you can control. You cannot control what she says to other people. You cannot control how other people react to what she says. So stop focusing on that. True friends are true friends. Friends that evade you because STBXW said you were mean aren't true friends.
Boundaries are not about controlling others, it is about deciding before hand what you will do! The example I always give is a boundary I think every spouse should have:
-If my spouse physically cheats on me I will go file for D.
Notice, this is not a boundary that says "YOU CANNOT CHEAT ON ME". That would non-enforceable. What it does do is set what YOUR ACTION will be if the boundary is crossed.
-If my WAS starts treating me disrespectfully I will stand up for myself "I refuse to stand her and be spoken to like that.", and walkaway.
Notice, you can't control your spouse's behavior, but you can control your action once the boundary is crossed.
I am a big fan of email only communication for folks that are in the advanced stages of a sitch like yours. Then every word will be established. The other two (indirect through attorneys and 2 on 2) are fine too, but can get expensive in a hurry. Attorney hourly rates are ridiculous.
Arranging time with the kids for the holidays is going to be an issue for years. My advice is to bend-over backwards to accommodate your kids. Do not put a premium on the day, just the time spent. "Dad, mom is insisting on getting together for Christmas Eve, and we have my spouse's side on Christmas. Could we do Christmas with you on Saturday?" Accommodate that. Do not get into the game of "Your mom gets Christmas Eve she is more important to than I am!" Be the bigger person. The time with your kids (and grandkids assuming you have some) is the important thing, not the day. The problems always arise when pettiness rules the day. Remember, your adult kids are caught in the middle of juggling all of this. Make it as easy for them as possible.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
* Possible 2-on-2 meeting in person (each of us with our attorney) to negotiate the divorce details -- this is apparently pretty common
Hi Tom,
This is not so common. Sounds expensive.
My ex-wife and I had two negotiations. The first time she and I did everything ourselves and then finalized it. The second time her attorney would send a proposal she'd work on, and then my attorney would send back a counter-proposal I'd worked on, until we reached an agreement and finalized it. The attorneys alleviated worries and rejected anything unreasonable or unenforceable. It was a very smooth process.
Someone else I "know extremely well" had a more contested divorce. They would clear their proposal with their attorney, then send it to the mediator and their ex-H. Their ex-H would do likewise. The mediator intervened when neither side was making progress by offering out-of-the-box suggestions, setting a time-limit, and weighing in on how they believed a judge would rule if they couldn't agree on a point.
A 2-on-2 meeting sounds stressful. I'd have no interest sitting in a room with my ex for hours negotiating, and if I did, 1 attorney should be plenty to clarify what's reasonable and what's not.
Steve gives good advice about how to distinguish boundaries from controlling behavior. You control you. That's it. But you can remove yourself from a situation where your boundaries are being crossed and you're being hurt. You don't need to say anything to enforce a boundary ahead of time. You just do what you need to do to protect yourself.
Are you in IC? I spent a good amount of time with my IC defining my own boundaries for my own healing and emotional safety, and then working on enforcing them. Your boundaries are going to be YOUR boundaries and they might be different from anyone else's, but that is for you to decide. I don't think anyone here should tell you what your boundaries should be. For instance, I disagree with Steve that PA = D as a boundary for every person. But that's okay. Steve's boundaries are for him, and my boundaries are for me. Your boundaries need to be true and authentic boundaries in order for you to enforce them appropriately. Borrowing ones that people tell you to have is a recipe for letting them be trampled, I think.
Originally Posted by Tom
So the issue of fair seems to pale against the question -- what is the right thing for me? Do I owe her an easy process moving forward?
No. You don't owe her anything, in my book.
What do you need for your own healing and progress? If a cold text message from her makes you weep and spin, then let her know you'd like to communicate exclusively by email and stop responding to her texts until she stops texting you, or block her. Figure out what you need and then protect that space for yourself.
With your friends-- if I were you I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. You may be reading things into their responses that aren't meant that way. People sometimes feel uncomfortable about D and they may just not know what to say to you right now, not that they have heard anything from your W about you. Reach out when you're ready.
With your kids-- I agree with Steve to be as flexible as you can to support them. It is hard enough to deal with competing in-laws for holidays and I'm sure having freshly Ded parents adds a whole extra layer of difficulty to the mix, and they will be having a hard enough time dealing with it on their own. Have you talked with each of them about what they are thinking for the holidays? It may be best to understand where they are and what plans they've already made or are thinking of making, what their other obligations might be, before proposing something to your W (should you decide that is the best route to go). Note that if she's been the primary communicator with them about plans like this when you were M it may feel strange for you to jump into that role, but if I were you I'd far rather be active in the plans than wait for them to be made for you. Which very well might happen if you wait too long.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Arranging time with the kids for the holidays is going to be an issue for years. My advice is to bend-over backwards to accommodate your kids. Do not put a premium on the day, just the time spent. "Dad, mom is insisting on getting together for Christmas Eve, and we have my spouse's side on Christmas. Could we do Christmas with you on Saturday?" Accommodate that. Do not get into the game of "Your mom gets Christmas Eve she is more important to than I am!" Be the bigger person. The time with your kids (and grandkids assuming you have some) is the important thing, not the day. The problems always arise when pettiness rules the day. Remember, your adult kids are caught in the middle of juggling all of this. Make it as easy for them as possible.
I also agree with Steve, but in my sitch, I made sure things were 50/50 fair and equal...
I didn't care if the kids were at my house Thanksgiving Thursday or Friday. As long as I was able to spend the day with them and that we alternated days each year. They were at my house on Thursday every other year.
Now that my kids are all out of the house, D19 asked about thanksgiving. I said I am fine following the same schedule as the divorce agreement to avoid consternation (one of those great words I learned from my lawyer) with her mother.
One exception to the alternating was the kids always had Christmas day with me and Christmas eve with their mother. (This was Moms request so they could go to mass on Xmas eve, and I decided this was a fine arrangement as well).
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
* Possible 2-on-2 meeting in person (each of us with our attorney) to negotiate the divorce details -- this is apparently pretty common
Hi Tom,
A 2-on-2 meeting sounds stressful. I'd have no interest sitting in a room with my ex for hours negotiating, and if I did, 1 attorney should be plenty to clarify what's reasonable and what's not.
Interesting perspective. At the time, my attorney said this was the most cost-effective way to go if we couldn't work it out together and then use mediation.
I said no to it many months ago, solely because of boundaries (I wasn't using the term at the time). It was only a few weeks past my STBXW and her attorney's gambit. I told my attorney to tell them no because I didn't trust my ex's attorney, that he probably had some strategy to try to get me angry or upset in living color as a way to gain advantage. The upset part was true; I knew that merely seeing her would make me weep. At that time she totally had the upper hand.
Tom, remember the DB principle of focusing on what you can control. You cannot control what she says to other people. You cannot control how other people react to what she says. So stop focusing on that. True friends are true friends. Friends that evade you because STBXW said you were mean aren't true friends.
Boundaries are not about controlling others, it is about deciding before hand what you will do! The example I always give is a boundary I think every spouse should have:
-If my spouse physically cheats on me I will go file for D.
Notice, this is not a boundary that says "YOU CANNOT CHEAT ON ME". That would non-enforceable. What it does do is set what YOUR ACTION will be if the boundary is crossed.
-If my WAS starts treating me disrespectfully I will stand up for myself "I refuse to stand her and be spoken to like that.", and walkaway.
Notice, you can't control your spouse's behavior, but you can control your action once the boundary is crossed.
I am a big fan of email only communication for folks that are in the advanced stages of a sitch like yours. Then every word will be established. The other two (indirect through attorneys and 2 on 2) are fine too, but can get expensive in a hurry. Attorney hourly rates are ridiculous.
As usual, Steve, you are right on point and state things so clearly even a dense tech guy like me can understand it!
So I guess the only comment I have is understanding just why people spend so long "working on their boundaries." It seems like a relatively straightforward thing to do. Unless you mean, for example in my case, trying all types of communication out -- e.g, in-person meeting, facetime, phonecall, email, or text -- until you find out which ones you want to avoid.
Also, thanks for making so clear the issue of control. Wow that is really poignant now. I should only expend emotional energy over the things I can control and not worry about the others. OK. Now that I understand it in my head, let's see if I can live it.
