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Originally Posted by tom_h

But I do have one question. Don't all divorcees have to eventually talk about their exes? Whether it was 10 years or 30, that relationship had a huge influence on their life, and who they are today! So would it be better to say what you're looking for is whether they have settled feelings about their ex and their former marriage? Because I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be a topic of conversation. Certainly, for me at least, if the relationship was to get serious I would WANT to know if there was serious baggage or woundedness, and that could only come about by discussing that prior marriage.


Sure, eventually. Just the same as any other topic that has baggage comes up like: upbringing, religion, politics etc. Do you expect people to go over those things on the first date in detail, too? For me, this was awkward to bring up on first dates, especially if I wasn't sure if I wanted to go on additional dates. I also did date people who knew me (e.g. not always on an app or something). I don't see my divorce from my first marriage as a huge influence on my current life, for the most part - while it wasn't that supremely long ago, we also don't have kids, didn't have joint property, and have not spoken since well before the D was finalized. It was my decision to D so I was very pleased with it and see it as a positive. I would never dodge the question, or mislead someone about it, it's just not defining to me as a person. When I dated after D, I dated some people who had been married previously, and some that had not. Most people have ex baggage, whether they were married or not. I can overcome some ex baggage, but certain religious or political things I cannot overcome, so those are more polarizing items that I'd rather know up front over exes.

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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Anyway, back to you. It seems like things keep getting side tracked. Are you doing OK emotionally? What is the best way for us to help?

Thanks for asking. I'm OK on the outside, people think I'm doing well, but on the inside I'm still a bit of a mess. Upset with myself that after 32 years I turned out to be an unfit husband. Working hard to fill my day. Trying to make new friends because all my old friends were married to my ex's best friends, and she's been talking trash about me to these girlfriends.

The worst is yet to come, I fear, as we approach the end of the divorce process. It'll get me down, especially the final signing of the papers. That's just the kind of sensitive guy I am.

But I'm slowly coming to terms with the princples of DB. I've been commenting on other posts and it really helps me congeal the concepts in my own mind when I get to talk with others.

Best way to help is keep engaging with me (and staying patient if I backslide) as I come to grips that my old life is never coming back. I still have dreams at night that this is all a dream, by the way.

Last edited by tom_h; 10/22/20 04:42 AM.
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Originally Posted by tom_h

So just how old are you, AS? I'm late 50s.


It's in my signature, I'm 59.

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And for the life of me, I can't imagine marrying, much less dating someone much younger. I don't want to have a household someday filled with young kids or teenagers unless they're my grandchildren.


Yeah neither do I. My GF already has a daughter and doesn't want more children. That's definitely a subject that came up early on and we're on the same page.

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What I've heard from most people is that there are a LOT of single women between 50 and 65 but most of them are screwed up. Really screwed up.


Personally I encountered the opposite of that. The women my age that I interacted with through online dating definitely had their stuff together. Many were intelligent, well-employed and living in nice areas. The problem wasn't that they were screwed up, it's that they were very cautious about meeting. They just wanted to text. Many of them had come out of bad relationships and wanted to "take it slow and be friends first" (I heard that so many times). But personally I learned early on that one face-to-face meeting tells you more than a thousand texts. I let myself get drawn into some "text relationships" where we opened up to each other and shared hopes and dreams and such only to meet and find out there was zero spark. After that happened a few times I would exchange a few messages and then suggest we meet for lunch or dinner somewhere public. This was where the age problem came up because few women my age would meet early on even after I explained my reasons, they wanted to just text. The younger women were perfectly fine with it though.

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Also, and maybe you don't want to be 100% public about it, but I'd appreciate having a one-on-one dialogue with you about dating. What do you think?


I'm happy to answer whatever questions you have, I've always been very open here about my experiences with the end of my M, the S and D, and the years since then including my dating activities and ongoing interactions with my XW. There's 10 years of my life documented here that's not anywhere else!


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by tom_h
I'm OK on the outside, people think I'm doing well, but on the inside I'm still a bit of a mess.

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I still have dreams at night that this is all a dream, by the way.
Both definitely normal. Takes time to process everything.

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Working hard to fill my day. Trying to make new friends because all my old friends were married to my ex's best friends, and she's been talking trash about me to these girlfriends.
It is interesting how friends "pick sides". I intentionally went out to make new friends "outside" my current circles. If you have time check out Shawn Ryan on Youtube. He was a navy seal and has an interesting presentation on friends. It makes sense.

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Upset with myself that after 32 years I turned out to be an unfit husband./quote]You lasted longer than most. That doesn't sound like unfit to me. Somehow we missed the memo that we need to keep focused on our personal growth during the marriage. Living with someone else is crazy hard.

[quote][The worst is yet to come, I fear, as we approach the end of the divorce process. It'll get me down, especially the final signing of the papers. That's just the kind of sensitive guy I am.
There is another guy buried down inside you. He is the one that needs to be projected out during this. It is kinda Yin-yang thing. You want your wife to see a complete different you. Confident and excited about the future.


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But I'm slowly coming to terms with the principles of DB. I've been commenting on other posts and it really helps me congeal the concepts in my own mind when I get to talk with others.
I have always said "helping others, helps me". Pretty easy for me to know how to respond IRL when I have thought about how others should respond.

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Best way to help is keep engaging with me (and staying patient if I backslide)
Always helpfully to remind us of this from time to time as well as when you decide you need a different kind of help.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Somehow we missed the memo that we need to keep focused on our personal growth during the marriage.

Curious that you say this. In my situation at least, wouldn't the bigger issue have been my not staying in touch with who she is, who she became, and actively investing in the relationship? I don't disagree that we need to personally grow but -- this is not meant to be cynical -- sometimes the years from age 30-55 are so damn busy making a career and raising kids that you don't get time to focus on personal growth.

I'd rank the priorities during that period, in fact, as: 1) providing for the family; 2) raising well-adjusted children; 3) doing your best to keep your spouse happy; 4) staying physically healthy; 5) personal growth.

Because after the kids leave the house then #1-2 go away, and #3-5 all kind of mush together. I just didn't get the chance to really get to Phase 2 before she walked out, mostly because I didn't attend much to #3.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Living with someone else is crazy hard.

Wow, a nice insight.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
There is another guy buried down inside you. He is the one that needs to be projected out during this. It is kinda Yin-yang thing. You want your wife to see a complete different you. Confident and excited about the future.

My wife will never see the new me. She has made that quite clear. But there will be another Mrs Tom someday. She will be the lucky beneficiary.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Always helpful to remind us of this from time to time as well as when you decide you need a different kind of help.

Thanks, R2C, for these words. Sometimes I feel chipper and other times the load feels so damn heavy. I am past missing her every day, so the burden is mostly facing the fact -- one I still cannot shake -- of having failed. I know you have counseled otherwise, and I believe you intellectually, but the visceral feelings are usually on top.

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Originally Posted by SamCal
Originally Posted by tom_h

But I do have one question. Don't all divorcees have to eventually talk about their exes? Whether it was 10 years or 30, that relationship had a huge influence on their life, and who they are today! So would it be better to say what you're looking for is whether they have settled feelings about their ex and their former marriage? Because I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be a topic of conversation. Certainly, for me at least, if the relationship was to get serious I would WANT to know if there was serious baggage or woundedness, and that could only come about by discussing that prior marriage.


Sure, eventually. Just the same as any other topic that has baggage comes up like: upbringing, religion, politics etc. Do you expect people to go over those things on the first date in detail, too? For me, this was awkward to bring up on first dates, especially if I wasn't sure if I wanted to go on additional dates. I also did date people who knew me (e.g. not always on an app or something). I don't see my divorce from my first marriage as a huge influence on my current life, for the most part - while it wasn't that supremely long ago, we also don't have kids, didn't have joint property, and have not spoken since well before the D was finalized. It was my decision to D so I was very pleased with it and see it as a positive. I would never dodge the question, or mislead someone about it, it's just not defining to me as a person. When I dated after D, I dated some people who had been married previously, and some that had not. Most people have ex baggage, whether they were married or not. I can overcome some ex baggage, but certain religious or political things I cannot overcome, so those are more polarizing items that I'd rather know up front over exes.

I guess it's a fine line, isn't it? But anyone with his/her wits about them would know when the mention of the prior marriage is too much, too little, or just about right as the weeks pass by and you continue dating.

Because I think a dating partner who won't talk about an ex AT ALL is probably hiding something. Or carries a lot of guilt. Or, if mostly on the receiving end of a bad marriage (e.g., a victim) is deeply wounded.

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Originally Posted by tom_h
In my situation at least, wouldn't the bigger issue have been my not staying in touch with who she is, who she became, and actively investing in the relationship?
Possibly, I lump this area into personal growth as well.


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I'd rank the priorities during that period, in fact, as: 1) providing for the family; 2) raising well-adjusted children; 3) doing your best to keep your spouse happy; 4) staying physically healthy; 5) personal growth.

Now that you have the power of hind sight, what do you think the priorities should be ranked?


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My wife will never see the new me. She has made that quite clear. But there will be another Mrs Tom someday. She will be the lucky beneficiary.
Since this is a save your marriage website, I default to the spouse as the target. But yes, all and every woman you interact with in the future.


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I believe you intellectually, but the visceral feelings are usually on top.
Correct. Having the knowledge comes before changing our beliefs and behavior.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by tom_h
I'd rank the priorities during that period, in fact, as: 1) providing for the family; 2) raising well-adjusted children; 3) doing your best to keep your spouse happy; 4) staying physically healthy; 5) personal growth.

Now that you have the power of hindsight, what do you think the priorities should be ranked?

I have two areas of thought here, in response.

First, perhaps keep the ranking exactly the same. When children are young, they should be top priority, and equally essential is providing for them and the family as a whole.

The other sense I have is that the marriage is top priority, and only when that is healthy, then everything else works out. That would mean 3) becomes 1).

I'm torn here. The original ranking does not mean you neglect your marriage or neglect keeping your spouse happy, but the two of you should be grown-up enough to shoulder the burdens of parenthood without falling apart because every living minute isn't a romantic paradise. If there were 36 hours in the day, and children slept 16 of them, then there would be time!

My STBXW used to say little things that, viewed today, were some early signs. She would say, after an especially busy week when I traveled M-F and needed to decompress on Saturday, "sometimes you act like you're single." That hurt, because to me "acting like you're single" means philandering, hanging out with bros on Friday night at the local bar, and ignoring her. Sometimes I would be exasperated at such a comment, or sometimes dismissive. You know the story -- I was working my a-- off for the family, so she could stay home and raise the kids, and I get no appreciation. For a number of years I was traveling internationally on business, and then needed a full day to get back to the local time zone. She often didn't take that well either, took it personally. She loved the income and the lifestyle, but was so focused on herself!

I received one comment from a woman, whose marriage ended with the death of her husband from cancer, that "you have to play the hand you are dealt. If you keep complaining that the cards aren't right, or that things aren't fair, you will never be content." If my STBXW had an ounce of this wisdom there might have been a different outcome. She should have known better; we were a Christian couple and if anyone is prepared to understand this wisdom, a Christian is!

When she finally walked out, without advance notice, I am certain that she had spent years convincing herself she wasn't in love with me anymore. I was under some stress and had put on a lot of weight during that final year, so even looking at me might have been hard.

Sometimes I do wonder if all this wasn't inevitable given her character.

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To all fellow DBers, thanks so far for comments, dialogue, and support so far! I've been at this for about 60 days and have changed a lot in my outlook, mostly because of you all!

But now I'm canvassing everyone for advice about communication -- communicating with my STBXW 13 months after BD.

Here's where things stand. We are entering perhaps the toughest part of the divorce process, trying to split up everything and, hopefully, avoid a trial.

First, I need to go back to last year. In the two weeks after my STBXW first filed for divorce, she was insistent that we could do the divorce without lawyers, using a mediator. I still wanted her back, so I agreed to it -- hoping beyond hope that my assent would warm her toward me. I couldn't have been more wrong; We had a 1-on-1 meeting 17 days after BD, and 11 days after that she went nuclear on me. Her lawyer accused me in correspondence of being hostile toward her, having violent tendencies and anger management issues, of harassing her, and threatening a restraining order if I so much as breathed a word via text or email. It almost put me in the ER. Here was the sweetest woman in the universe, presumably still calling herself a Christian, pulling the most dirty trick you can on a LBH who was still in shock from BD and desperate to do anything to reconcile.

Of course it totally poisoned the waters. Now there was zero chance that we would roll up our sleeves and work together toward an amicable divorce. Just what the lawyers want -- all communication being routed through them.

Her attorney never filed for the restraining order; in fact she fired him a couple months later and hired another one. I have speculated many times that she approved the "restraining order threat" against her better judgment, because she is naive and can be manipulated. And, when it didn't work, maybe that attorney wanted to fight harder and dirtier and she objected to the nastiness, and eventually fired him. I have no proof of this. Still, there is official correspondence on the record of this nasty accusation so I suppose it is still operative; meaning, if I sent her one text showing just a little irritation her new attorney could forward it to the judge as proof and thereby finally get that restraining order.

But my question here is essentially independent of the legal shenanigans. She has sent me a couple emails since August asking this and that and I have not replied. In not one of them did she say something mollifying like, "Let's put the fighting and division behind us, Tom, and try and work the details out on our own. I know we can do it." They usually say, "I'd like to know when I can come by this weekend to get some clothing" or "I understand you bought a new knife set, can I have the old one." I haven't answered a single one of the emails; maybe it's petulant of me but she set the stage for our communication at each step of the way and I guess it's my own little rebellion against her. Now I control how we communicate.

Does anyone here have any suggestions? What have you all been through? When a spouse, during the process of a divorce got nasty and played dirty, how did you turn things around? I just need some perspective. Thanks.




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hi Tom,

You posted on someone else's thread asking me about boundaries in your situation... yes, boundaries are important for everyone, no matter what their situation is. I'd read the boundary thread carefully if you haven't already, and then spend some time thinking about whether your behavior is there to protect you (healthy boundary) or there to control your W's behavior (not a boundary, but a controlling behavior. I read a lot of controlling tendencies in your descriptions of your interactions with your W. Something to think about.).

When I read your above question, it feels to me, though I might be reading this incorrectly, that you are not responding to her emails to punish her and feel in control of the situation, not to protect yourself because any interaction with her is painful. And, you're hurt that her communication is all business, not about your relationship.

You might read through Unchien's threads. He's going through a pretty nasty D right now and his W made up some terrible accusations. I thought of his thread (and DnJ's on the MLC board, whose W made an announcement on Thanksgiving and walked out the door and that was it) when reading through yours, as situations you might identify with. I read earlier you feeling the need to understand why your W did what she did (I can identify with this too). I think Unchien's thread might really help you to let go, and also how to set boundaries to protect yourself without spending time or energy thinking how enforcing those boundaries might be perceived by your W. He's secure in knowing that he is doing the right thing and has let go of the need to understand or control his W's narrative.

I guess in your exact situation, I would first understand what your own boundaries are around communication. If any communication would send you into a tailspin, keep ignoring her emails for your own protection. But, if it wouldn't hurt you to respond that she can have the old knife set and leave it out for her to pick up, why wouldn't you do that? Wouldn't you want her to treat you the same way? Modeling the kind of behavior you'd like to see, and being true to yourself-- not being petty towards her just to prove some point or because she was petty towards you first-- seems like the right thing to do (as long as you can do it whilst still enforcing your own boundaries). It takes two to tango. Truly dropping the rope means not ignoring her in order to control the situation or punish her. It means you're fine, no matter what, and a polite request from her doesn't anger you, or depress you because it isn't the communication you want to hear from her.

hang in there, Tom. I know this is all really, really hard. But you'll get through it.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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