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Hi Alison,

This all sounds so good, to me. Miles better than it did a couple of months ago. I'm sure taking a break from here, from micro-analyzing every negative interaction and bathing in the anger and frustration through posting has helped.

Not to be pushy, but wondering if you'd thought about doing that piecing inventory again, and seeing where you are? What do you think has made the change in your H? How are he and your eldest getting along?

Thanks for updating us-- I think of you often.

xx May


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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That's a really good idea, May. I think I will - though not today. Work is CRAZY at the moment and the covid-related news gets worse every day, which makes planning and strategy (a major part of my role) both extremely important and totally impossible.

I do think one thing has changed: we did, pretty consistently, seem to assume the worst of each other at all times. I think we both felt we had good reason for doing that - he was convinced I was going to get upset and angry and sad and demand soothing or long R talks whenever he set a boundary or did something I didn't like because I had acted like that for a long time, and now and again, still did (my 180s were never perfect, and never will be, given I am human). I assumed that when he was quiet and withdrawn I was only inches away from more of his anger and nastiness - and I also had really good reason to assume those things. But on both sides, they were assumptions and I think both of us were ignoring positive moments and good changes the other had made, and that was causing a lot of despair and frustration on both sides, so more withdrawal, distance, resentment and anger. I think what changed things was space. And I did sort of give up on him being any different, and became totally uninterested in a) changing his behaviour or b) explaining to him how it made me felt and c) exposing myself to it. All of this has happened without much in the way of talking between us. I make sure to express appreciation and gratitude when it is warranted, but I don't go overboard. When I have a boundary, I act it out in as few words as possible. There's little to no pursuing on my part any more, and he has in his own way tip-toed closer, and while I appreciate that, I no longer need it or rely on it.

I think this relates to trust, really. I don't trust my H to be consistently decent towards me - it's too early days for that. But I think this lack of trust isn't a fault in me, just.a sane and rational response to our shared history. There are lots of ways in which he doesn't trust me and I think he'd say the same. My lack of trust resulted in some controlling behaviour and reassurance seeking, which was unhealthy, then some very self-protective behaviour, which meant it was impossible for us to have the closeness that I wanted. But now I just take each moment as it comes and decide if what he is offering is something I want to be close to and engage with, or something I want to step back from. I take those decisions on a moment by moment basis, without trying to control what he is offering, or criticise it, or explain my own decisions. It's like a very slow and deliberate dance. What has changed, I think, is that I trust myself. I am making sane and rational decisions that are powered by curiosity - I want to see if we can find a way to meet each other's needs in a healthy way and be happy, as we once were, but in different ways. The decisions previously were powered either by self protection or point scoring or wanting to use my boundaries to control him. This is different. I think what made it different is that I trust myself. I trust my judgment, I trust my ability to meet most of my own needs, I trust that I am financially independent and capable of divorcing him if I need to. I trust I can make that decision and know when I am there when the time comes. So I don't feel trapped, which means the urge to make him do or not do something or hurry along this process because where I am now isn't tolerable to me has gone away.

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Gosh Alison, I'm so glad to hear your update! You sound in a good place and like your H is tiptoeing back towards you and you're allowing that. Him acknowledging his depression is pretty big, men tend to express depression as irritability or anger and try to hide it as much as possible, so it is healthy for him to talk about it.
I'm sorry about your increased covid restrictions, we are in for a long winter I fear. Take care of yourself xxx

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I think it is going to be a long winter too, Dilly. I am trying not to dread it, but just take each day as it comes - though I can't really do that perfectly yet and I do feel quite down sometimes.

And yes, H is easier to be around when he's actually just tired and depressed, rather than just irritable and angry and blaming. I can be nearer to that, and offer a bit more comfort and am willing to be kinder, than I am when he's pretending the reason he's such a miserable arse is because I have fictionally not cleaned the crumbs out of the toaster on a schedule he's imagined out of thin air.

There is still one point of difficulty that doesn't seem to be untangling, and that is how things are in the bedroom. He's not a great initiator and most of the time when I initiate (which he says he prefers, and needs me to do to show him I am willing) he turns me down. I do appreciate he is tired and stressed and try to be understanding about that. He doesn't like to be close like that in the mornings as he wants to get up and ready. He prefers not in the evenings as he is tired and needs time alone to unwind. And we are together in the afternoons less than once or twice a month, due to our schedule. I have asked for some compromise in this area, but I also don't want him doing anything he doesn't want to do and doesn't feel enthusiastic about. When he does initiate, I believe he tries to communicate great enthusiasm to reassure me he is actually wanting it and not just doing his duty, but his enthusiasm comes across as impatience - I am trying to be delicate - and I think I should either just accept his advances as they are, even though I need more time and tenderness than is on offer (as it is so rare he is in the mood to initiate) and I am also struggling with feeling resentful - 'I've asked you six times this month and each time you've said no and NOW you happen to be in the mood I have to just jump to it, do I?'. We have been able to talk this through without blame and without it turning into an argument and that is new and positive. But neither of us have any ideas about how to change things here. He can't pretend he wants what he doesn't want, and I can't really enjoy him doing his duty and also feel desired. Perhaps I need to accept that I am not desired in the way I want to be. But that feels like letting go of something that I really hoped we would be able to recover.

So if anyone has any advice for me in this matter then I would appreciate that.

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Hi Alison,

I know we've chatted before on this, coming from opposite sides on the SSM situation, and what you've written has been really helpful for me. I have spent a lot of time thinking about both where I was (and I have felt all those things your H is saying he feels, too tired and not ready and I have a million things I need to be doing right now) and how my H must have felt during that time. I know for a fact my H felt some of the resentment you are talking about, both in the moment and long-term.

I think the fact you are able to talk about it without blame or it becoming an argument is really, really positive, I do. I think sex is so wrapped up in identity, especially for men, and the fact that he (who has trouble with this even on easy topics) can actually TALK about it without getting defensive or resentful or angry, blaming you for your bad timing or unsexy clothes or whatever he might come up with-- is really encouraging, from my perspective. I know I really didn't want to talk about it with my H and felt like there was just something wrong with me for not wanting sex, and kept pushing it back to be his fault for not being nicer or getting me in the mood or whatever.

Anyway, have you read Emily Nagoski's book, Come As You Are? It is focused on female desire and sexuality but talks about a new model of desire/arousal (not just the gas pedal but also what triggers the "brakes" for people) as well as the importance of context that apply to men as well as women. I think you'd find it interesting, and if your H was interested in reading it he would too. There are other programs out there (I think Pommy and her H were trying one recently) that all seem to follow a similar trajectory of cutting out sex for awhile, then starting non-sexual touch and moving really slowly to build physical intimacy without the pressure of sex. That could be an issue for him, too-- fear of performance failure that leads him into "impatience," so much attachment to a particular outcome that he is unable to relax and enjoy the process as much as being sure he checks off certain boxes, and maybe it is okay to be less outcome-oriented and just enjoy each other without a particular destination in mind ahead of time.

You might also spend some time thinking about what supports your desire and interest, not just his... when you talk about the resentment and his impatience, that you feel like it is a tradeoff between sex he is willing to engage in and sex you actually enjoy, and that can't be fun. Perhaps there are ways he can show you that he cares about your experience beyond just demonstrating enthusiasm that would help you to feel more desired as well.

As Yail has said to me-- don't write your future, yet. You have both come so, so far. This is just the next thing to untangle.

And finally as an aside, this:
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
than I am when he's pretending the reason he's such a miserable arse is because I have fictionally not cleaned the crumbs out of the toaster on a schedule he's imagined out of thin air.

had me totally cracking up. My H, in his snit phase earlier this week, ostentatiously cleaned out the toaster in front of me and made a bunch of comments about how "we" need to do better at this. Hahahahaha!


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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
So if anyone has any advice for me in this matter then I would appreciate that.


I come from a position a little more similar to May, and also from the side of being single now. But I can put myself back into my feelings when I was low desire, and hopefully brainstorm a bit.

I do think the fact that my perspective is female is potentially not as helpful in this instance - but still I will try.

I too love Nagoski as May does. For folks who sleep with women I think it's an important read (for anyone else reading this). I haven't read her book - it's on my download list - but I've listened to her speak and want to scream "oh my gosh YES I understand you" through the screen.

When I was more low drive and less experimental feeling with XW we had times we agreed upon to just be together. Shut the bedroom door, get naked under the covers to increase intimacy, and just drink a glass of wine or watch a tv show on the iPad or chat. Being tired is okay here - falling asleep is okay - because it's a time to shut off all the exterior pressures and intentionally *not* have sex but do it together. Sometimes we broke the rule - but the idea was to truly not expect it. I do think this helped with easing the tension in the "we are not having enough sex" dialogue. It was really just a tension release time. Very in line with what May said.

Now that I've been single nearly two years my sex drive is...in overdrive. I wonder about who that woman was that wasn't interested, because it doesn't feel like the authentic me. But also now in my solo time I have taken the time to really ponder my sexuality and wants vs needs, or likes vs dislikes. I think I've learned a lot, and think I will continue to learn when partnered again some time. And one theory is that perhaps I wasn't having enough of the type of sex I wanted. What we had was fantastic - but it was also 10 years on. I didn't have the confidence or ideas or understanding that I should be changing it. XW tried to guide me into discussion but I was drawing blanks on ideas that sounded interesting. Do you think your H wants or needs something that he can't even imagine or articulate?

Only now that I'm solo do I find more things intriguing (lots of reading). And perhaps it is because I can separate the sex act from the person since I don't have a real person next to me. There is the madonna vs whore complex where women are seen as one or the other. Perhaps I struggled to see my own W as anything but a loving person, and due to that I was missing out on parts of a sex life that are actually quite important. I wonder as one possibility if your H has any of these struggles. I found for me that once things got going they could get real good - but the idea of starting from a place of zero heat - to suggest something out of the ordinary would have felt very, very weird.


Anyway, those are my musings. I suspect your H is in a very deep sexual rut, and that's very difficult to come out of, so I'm not sure that any of this will be helpful. He has to value sex first before he can move forward, and I don't think that actually has anything to do with you at all - but more a relationship with his body and how he sees himself. That's how it was for me - I didn't know I was a sexual being. I just thought sex happened in my life somehow, and that I wasn't in charge.

Stay well.

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Thanks friends. It is nice to see you again here Yail!

I have just ordered Come As You Are. So that's a good start. And yes, it is good that H and I have managed to have conversations about this - not many, and not often - but when it has happened I feel that there's not so much of the excuses and evasiveness and blame as there is a joint effort to understand what the tangle is. I feel sure it is linked to his depression, and is also a confidence issue - he is not a selfish man in bed, but so much of what he does is about self-reassurance that I either get bored, or feel unnecessary to the proceedings or am concentrating so much on trying to hide or let go of anger and resentment that not a lot is happening for me. I have asked him if there is anything specific he would like me to do or try, and when he gives me suggestions I will do them, but they seem to have very little effect on his enjoyment. I don't feel confident that there's anything I do that he likes or desires. And when I ask him for things, he will do them, but in such a mechanical and wooden way, with no connection or tenderness, that it feels like I've asked him to do the ironing and he's agreed to do it because he knows I usually do it and has run out of respectable excuses for refusing to take his share of the work. I've tried to find a way to tell him that is how it feels, and he says he was doing what I asked, I'm never happy, etc etc. I guess for me I have isolated the fact that it isn't really about the specific act or technique - it isn't really a problem in that area - but about him finding a way to communicate some love and desire and tenderness and enthusiasm in a way that I can feel. I don't know if it is that he doesn't feel those things or can't communicate them. We aren't quite at the point where he will take any request I make as criticism and break off proceedings to angrily defend himself - that was such a massive turn off it literally took me a YEAR to have any kind of desire for him after that - but I am afraid of being at that point.

And I think my part in things is in the anger and resentment. He knows I am frustrated, feel unloved in this way, feel angry about it, feel frustrated at his lack of effort, and disappointed when he does make an effort because it so clearly is... an effort. He knows I feel trapped in a pretty sexless relationship and resentful that choosing him means choosing near celibacy, and there's a bit of me furious about that. I have said to him that if he isn't interested in or capable of a normal sex life, then it is his responsibility to find other ways to show me love and desire - if he doesn't have sex-drive then he could have spending-time-together drive or words-of-affirmation drive but I am sure me being angry and resentful is also a massive turn off for him. And I am not sure how not to be, or how to suppress that and fake being happy when he does make a half-hearted, mechanical move on me. When he does, to be honest I feel like rolling my eyes and screaming at him. I don't act that way, I really don't, but just as I can 'see' him doing his duty in a cold-hearted way, I am sure he can see me gritting my teeth and going along with stuff that makes me feel abandoned and furious.

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Hi Alison,

That's tough. I am very familiar, at this moment, with the feeling like maybe I'm just settling for something that is not ever going to be good enough. And, maybe, it won't be, for either you or for me. Or maybe it will, either because things get better or we learn to live with it. I'm an eternal optimist so rooting for things will get better, with time, for both of us. I see how far you've come and it is really encouraging.

When I read about your H, and the woodenness and the trying but not putting his heart into it... I have been there. I have so, so been there. And if he is anything like I was... sex simply wasn't important, at all. Like I was confused and annoyed that my H wanted it. I would so much rather have gotten an extra half hour of sleep. With some exceptions, like if we went for a weekend away without the kids, I was just going through the motions because I felt I should. And then on top of that I felt guilty and bad that I didn't want sex, and shuffled between feeling like there was something wrong with me and a kind of indignant defensiveness about why I didn't want to have sex with him, he was rude or didn't help with the kids enough or didn't understand I needed more sleep or thinks he can just roll over and initiate without at least a backrub first.

And this is the thing, Alison. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with my H. yes, he could have handled it better. (like you are handling it.) But in the end, it was about me and how I saw myself. Yail talks about not knowing she was a sexual being, and that is exactly how I felt. I didn't even realize it was a problem.

As Yail says, your H may be in a very deep rut, perhaps connected to his depression, but it very likely has zero to do with you and how he feels about you. (I remember some really romantic thing he said to you, a few months ago, when you went away with the children for a week, something like nobody else in the world was right for him like you were, or something along those lines. It always has warmed my heart towards your H and made me feel he does love you, truly. He has a lot of other issues but I think at the core of it he does love you, dearly.)

You can't rediscover his sexuality for him. He has to do that for himself. I think no amount of communicating and trying to get him to please you by acting like he wants it is going to fix it. I will say for me, rediscovering myself as a sexual being was a huge gift and I'm so glad I got it, even though it probably is only because of my H's A. (Of course, rather frustrating at the moment.) But maybe reading the book will help. If he's open to reading it, I think it could maybe help him a LOT.

the other thing, reading about how frustrating these interactions sound... I might consider just taking a break for a while. Make an agreement of no sex and just take that pressure off. Another thing I felt (and I read about it in several books so I'm not alone in this) is that I started to feel like any physical touch was an invitation or a precursor to sex, which I didn't want, so I started to shy away from his touch. We got to a place (where we still mostly are) where we rarely touch. When we do, it is notable. Of course I don't want that anymorea and physical touch is my H's primary LL, but we aren't yet in a place to address any of that (if we ever will be).

But I just wonder if your H feels some level of pressure and relieving that by banning sex for a bit could help allow him to show you how he cares about you in other ways, without worrying it might lead to sex. ("worrying it might lead to sex" probably sounds strange to anyone who hasn't been the LD partner, but it is real). It could also help you to stop feeling you have to fake being happy when he gins up the energy to make a half-hearted move. Just ban all that $hit for awhile and see if you can connect in other ways.

((Alison))


Me (46) H (42)
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Thank you May. This brought tears to my eyes. It is extremely difficult to communicate to my H how awful this makes me feel without him feeling criticised and when he feels criticised he's a terrible person to be around - he still reacts in anger, aggressive language, blaming etc.

I find it impossible to understand. He is very clear on not wanting me to have close or intimate friendships with other people. He wants me to be his. So he can put me on a shelf and ignore me. It feels like selfishness and cruelty.

If there was something really really important to him that only I could give him I would want to do that. The thing is, there isn't anything that is really important to him that only I can give him. He can have conversations with his friends, share hobbies with whoever he likes, he prefers to sleep alone, and he's capable of hiring a house keeper and childminder. So a lot of the time I am left wondering what I am actually for. And that makes me very sad too.

I think what he wants and needs most is for me to pretend the way he wants things is fine, because understanding I am very hurt and very angry about this - and have been for years - is too much for him. So yet again it is me who needs to go without something I need - not even sex, but just an acknowledgement of the massive damage this has done to me and our marriage and the opportunity to receive some care and empathy for that - because his feelings and needs have to be more important.

I know processing my anger and resentment are my responsibility, and I know I choose this - I am more than capable of walking away and taking care of myself. I could even have an affair if I wanted to. But I don't want to. And I don't want to walk away either. I just want to be wanted and desired, and he doesn't seem capable of that unless I pretend that not being wanted and desired has been totally fine, has done no damage at all, and hasn't caused me deep wounds. The selfishness of it is staggering and I get angry when I think about it.

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Hi Alison,

I know this is so difficult. This is one thing that you can really only get from your H as long as you stay M. I know my H really struggled with this too. All I can say is that I didn't comprehend at all what it meant to him and the damage the constant rejection was doing. Your H is not the most empathetic of individuals... I'm going to guess that he really isn't able to see it. He may hear you and the trying is there, but at a deep, gut level he really doesn't understand why it matters so much. So telling him, getting angry at him, responding with fake enthusiasm or resentment when he does try-- none of that really helps, I'm guessing. He needs to truly want to understand how his behaviors are affecting you, and he needs to decide on his own that he wants to rediscover his own sexuality.

I know his EA is far in the rearview mirror, but I'm sure it doesn't help to know that he was able to act romantically and express desire towards his EAP. But... have you read the Nagowski book yet? It could be the context of the EA is what allowed him to have those feelings and express them, and (again, this needs to be his work, with your support) it isn't really bad news, even if it feels personally hurtful. It may just mean he needs to figure out the context in which he feels open to feeling and expressing desire, and how to integrate that into your M. And yes, I'm sure that the anger and resentment probably doesn't help him want to explore any of that.

Can you 100% just drop the rope on this? Stop initiating and remove all of your expectations of what he should or shouldn't be doing in this arena? if he does initiate, take it for what it is, have fun, don't pick apart if it seemed forced or too fast or whatever-- just experience and enjoy it without the weight of what it *isn't*, and smile and move on. I wonder if that is a 180 you can try. It would also give him the space to act without the weight of knowing what you want or expect from him in this area, and feeling like he isn't measuring up. I also wonder if totally dropping the rope on this would allow him to begin to show you affection in other ways.

I don't know if it would be best to tell him you're doing this explicitly or just do it. I lean towards telling him since you two are partners and piecing. I know my H did this in our R, stopped initiating to "see" how long it would take for me to initiate, and I felt betrayed after the fact that he was testing me like that without my knowledge. Of course, he was using that test as justification for starting an A, so that was pretty f-ed up and a big difference with your own motivations here... but it might be a good idea to just keep everything open on this topic as it is already fairly fraught.

Hope you are doing well. xx M


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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