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Originally Posted by Ready2Change

The hardest 180 - Probably being more assertive. Still a work in progress.

Yes, I can imagine this is hard. Very hard. Especially for this nice guy, e.g., me!

Problem is, with me, my STBXW thought I was too dominant, too male, too dismissive of her thoughts. Yet, I am the ultimate nice guy! To this day, I think she made a huge mistake, thinking the grass will be greener. She will find that most men -- while they might be ultimate gentlemen -- will still, in the end, be more dominant than I ever was.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Initial 180s cleaned up my appearance and items on her "complaint list".

Sounds like she wanted a GQ-type man who was more dominant. Interesting. There is an old saying that while women may claim they want a nice guy, they really want a bad boy. I don't mean to make things trite, but is this the situation here?

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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by tom_h
I don't want to change how I think I should change; I want to change those things that others see about me. Much different.
Correct.

How do they see you now? How do you want them to see you?

Well, my STBXW isn't talking but I've been in therapy with an awesome [female] therapist and here's what I need to work on as 180s:

1) Communication
2) Empathy, especially when it is not automatic -- e.g., don't be dismissive even of the small things
3) Concern for what she is concerned about
4) Attending to her love languages
5) Being vulnerable, talking about feelings
6) Respect -- by the end of the marriage, we were mutually disrespectful too often, although she would probably only claim I was
7) Priorities -- caring more for people rather than ideas, politics, current events

If anyone is interested I'll talk more about the 180s in a more detailed post.

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Originally Posted by Valeska19
Tom.
You just can't have it both ways.

If you want the Single Life and freedom to date - Okay. Divorce your W. No more waiting. No more holding it up. No more teetering. Take the initiative and push it through.

If you want to not divorce your wife - Okay. Then stand and stand for you and you alone regardless of what she does.

I personally did not have another relationship until my D was final with my XW (the process took 22 months). When it was over... I knew I upheld my commitment to the marriage until the end. It had NOTHING to do with her and everything to do with the person I wanted to be. It was my commitment to her. When we signed the papers - she thanked me for staying "loving towards her" even in the midst of the D. Sometimes the high road is more painful... that's why it's less traveled.

Look I get it... it's been a long time. She's not showing any signs. You are sad, tired, lonely. I am not trying to invalidate those feelings. But please be honest with yourself about them. The decision is ultimately yours to make... and all I'm seeing is that you keep pushing it off as "my w is making me do it"

Thanks for your perspective. I'm really not trying to have it both ways. If you look back and read my relationship story, you'll see that I mostly fell into it. I did get out after only a few months and my eyes were opened about a lot of things.

Most of the other advice I am getting here on DB is don't date, period, regardless of the divorce or not, for 2 years. I understand why those with this opinion are so passionate. I think the primary reasons they are so emphatic about it are, (1) having a relationship on the rebound only delays, or defers forever, giving yourself the chance to do the 180s; (2) too soon after BD day no one is making good decisions (that was my case); and (3) you're too vulnerable so soon after BD day.

I can see how waiting until the divorce is final is some indication of respect, such as in your case. I get it. But if your STBXW shows you no respect, and in fact engages in the usual falsehoods and lies in an attempt to gain legal advantage, then what? STBXW sent me messages via our adult children that "there is no one else," as if that mattered. If she is determined to divorce me, with no chance at counseling or working things out, do I really care if there is another man? For me at least, the answer is no.

This is not a matter of feelings of loneliness or physical attention. Had my STBXW said to me, "I need a lot of time alone. I'm moving out and getting my own place. I want a legal separation, I'd prefer not to see you unless it's about the kids, let's both revisit things in 6 months or so, and I hope you get some counseling," I would have done all of that in a heartbeat. No need to date or whatever.

But she walked out without notice. We met twice in the first couple weeks, at which I asked her to consider a trial separation. She said maybe at first, but then told me OVER THE TELEPHONE after 3 weeks that there was no chance for our marriage. One week after that, she began her legal shenanigans that almost put me in the ER. Together over 30 years, and the amount of discussion we had, mutually, to work things out could be measured in MINUTES.

To me, therefore, I consider my marriage to have ended on that day, over the telephone, when she told me there was no hope. I had to look ahead, not behind. I have maintained the high road, of course. Nothing untoward has been written about her by my attorney. But I am looking forward, not behind.

In a sense, I feel like I"m 16 again, having to figure out how to navigate the world of romance for 55-65 year olds. I think it's a lot more perilous than it was in high school.

And there's one more good reason to gently explore connection with the opposite sex. I get to try out my new changes -- at being a better communicator; at having more empathy; at having women view me as having a softer side. Proving that you've accomplished some 180s not only takes time, it takes feedback, and not just from family and friends.

So ... unless I learn a hard lesson otherwise, I hope to have coffees, dinner dates, and some movie times with some lovely women. And learn more about myself in the process.

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Originally Posted by tom_h
There is an old saying that while women may claim they want a nice guy, they really want a bad boy. I don't mean to make things trite, but is this the situation here?
Both types of guys have positive and negative traits. Dropping the negative ones from your "Current" type and picking up the positive ones from the "other" type works well.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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Originally Posted by Steve85
Originally Posted by tom_h
The Bible frowns on divorce but does not forbid it.


Yes this is correct.

What it does forbid is divorcing and remarrying.....except in cases of fornication. (Read Matthew 19.) So the only way according to the Bible you can remarry is if she has cheated on you (and leaving isn't cheating), or when she passes away. According to the Bible fornication (sexual sin) and death are the only things that can end a marriage. Regardless of what man's laws say.

Well now, the topic gets interesting from here. What if a spouse does not know if the other spouse cheated, or thinks the spouse cheated without objective proof? Is that good enough? Also, be advised that Mt 19 doesn't "forbid" divorce but just says that those who divorce have committed adultery, e.g., a sin.

I've had a number of pastors tell me that my STBXW sinned in initiating the divorce, especially the walking out without notice part. One of the NT books (Titus I think) commands we Christians to work things out with each other, and if one can't communicate with the other, then use a trusted 3rd party. She did none of these!

Some of these same pastors say that re-marrying is not a sin, especially if you are the LBS (left behind spouse). Just don't lose your Christian principles during the divorce process, dating, and the wooing of your next spouse. I am not a Biblical scholar so I'm not the one to cite chapter and verse. But the general thrust of these pastors is that God did not intend us to be without intimate connection with others, so especially if you are not the one who walked out, you should have no compunction about meeting someone else and remarrying.

Of course, even if remarrying is a sin, then is it a sin forever? Is it an unforgiveable sin? Of course not! There is only one unpardonable sin. So of course the act of a second marriage is something that can be forgiven.

But such is about the end of my biblical scholarship.

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I get a distinct feeling that you are still acting from the position of hurt. And you are trying to self medicate using other people of the opposite sex. You can rebuff all you want but denile is not just a river in Egipt. Been there, did that, I did not end well. Pople got hurt and I also ached with the pain I caused other people.

You have to fix you first and not by using other people. There is a saying that is relevant. And is sys that you are ready to date when you no longer feel the need to date, when you are happy by yourself and with just yourself.

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Originally Posted by Steve85

So you would be open to her coming back, even if not immediately. You are not ready to date. When you can answer "I wouldn't take her back if she were the last woman on earth" then I say go date like a madman.

You came to this forum lamenting the fact that she wouldn't even talk to you. To me you still have an attachment to her emotionally that you need to work on. Absence and loneliness are not the same thing as being ready to move on.


Steve, maybe the below makes this clearer.

A new friend, about age 55, told me the story of his WAW from about 10 years ago. I'll spare you the details, but he said that the pain never goes away. Never goes away. Last year, this friend remarried a lovely woman, stunning in fact, and is very happy. But he says that every day, during some moment of quiet, he feels pain because his first love, and his beautiful young family, fell apart. [I think his new wife must be a saint.] "It hurts every day, Tom," he said.

I'm not sure whether he is still "emotionally attached" to his ex after 10 years. Maybe he is just a sensitive man! [That's true in fact, he is artistic.]

Only the most callous among us would say that a bond with a first love, especially one that lasted 30 years, could be severed completely. I have some friends who are both past age 75, a widower and a widow, who recently remarried. Neither of them are "over" their past attachment to their first spouses! How can they, they see their first spouses in the faces of their children and grandchildren! While that doesn't mean they put their wedding picture from 50 years ago on the mantle, it might mean that there will always be a candle burning, in the background. I wouldn't be surprised if, in the new home they share together, they have a room upstairs called the "memory room" where the old photo albums, wedding pictures, and other memorabilia reside.

I'm not trying to create an argument or necessarily disagree with you. But I'm a sensitive guy too, and if I waited until I was "over" my ex I might be 80 years old, and too senile to have remembered her anyway!

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I don't know why my signature line isn't showing but here it is:

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.

If I get divorced at 45 I am going to live live live until I die. I'm not going worry every day about a past love when I could be loving the life I have.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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Originally Posted by harvey

My 180s:

1) Physical Attraction. Diet and exercise. I lost 30 pounds. I've gained 15 back, but I steadied there. I was almost too skinny at one point. Dress up more. I don't wear t-shirts (summer time) and hoodies (winter time) 90% of the time anymore. I quit chewing (more than two years now). I get more sleep.
2) Emotional Attraction. I read NMMNG. While I don't think a lot of it relates to me, some of it didn't resonate. I'm trying to be more alpha (without being a dink). My needs are not last on my list anymore. I'm not afraid to rock the boat. I'm back to my former fun self (more social). I treat my GF well, but I don't treat her like her sh|t doesn't stink.
3) Faith. I attend church more regularly. I do more bible study.
4) GAL. I volunteer more (until COVID hit). I reconnected with family and friends. I've gotten back into camping, fishing and hunting. I travel more (until COVID hit).
5) Improvements. I've worked on my procrastination. If something needs to get done, I do it. I've become handier around the house. I cook more.

Harvey, that is a great list! I resonate with point #1 a bit, because about the time my STBXW started planning her exit I was kind of heavy, and while I"m a good looking guy when I'm 35 pounds overweight I don't carry it well. I expect that if love is teetering on the edge, part of what puts a woman over the edge is looking at an overweight husband and saying to herself, "I don't even like how he looks anymore!" I've since lost 20 pounds and look good, but want to get down another 15 so I look fantastic. I've been holding at the current weight since last December.

If you don't mind, tell me a little more about NMMNG with your GF. What specifically did you change? I can imagine both the trivial (e.g., where you go to dinner or which movie to watch) to the non-trivial ("it's time for me to meet your parents" rather than "whenever you think it's the right time").

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Originally Posted by Vapo
I get a distinct feeling that you are still acting from the position of hurt. And you are trying to self medicate using other people of the opposite sex. You can rebuff all you want but denial is not just a river in Egypt. Been there, did that, it did not end well. People got hurt and I also ached with the pain I caused other people.

You have to fix you first and not by using other people. There is a saying that is relevant. And it says that you are ready to date when you no longer feel the need to date, when you are happy by yourself and with just yourself.

OK Vapo, I'm listening. Maybe you can tell me a bit about the mistakes you made when you became single? Because you say that people got hurt and you also got hurt.

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