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#2904760 09/30/20 01:04 AM
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Last thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2903603&page=all

Recap: Ugh. I hate these. Very briefly, H had a two year long distance affair, came clean in January but very ambivalent, she might be the love of his life, blah blah blah. We're now 2-3 weeks into reconciliation attempt #3 (maybe 2.5, since I don't know if we should really count the trip we took in August when he was NC with AP as a reconciliation attempt-- more like a break from hostilities).

This time around does feel different in many ways. We got to the very edge of S/D. He found an apartment he really liked. We agreed in principle to the financial splits (which he has still agreed to memorialize in a post-nup). We were working on what to tell the children (D8 and D10, who have absolutely zero idea anything is wrong). Then, H said he got to the very precipice of D, needing to pull the trigger on the apartment, and realized he can't do it, he doesn't want to D.

He came clean with a number of final lies about their relationship, including the fact that he'd kept a box of memorabilia which he threw in the garbage in front of me. He said things I'd been waiting to hear for the past year, that he was choosing our M, he was making this decision of his own free will (said in the past he felt coerced as there had been some ultimatum-ish deadlines I'd laid out), he was going to actively work on getting over AP, could envision M2.0 with me, was going to show me by being loving, etc. He said he finally realized that his fantasy D situation (where we'd all be best friends) was never on offer, from either me or AP. It only existed in his head. He had a conversation with AP and is now NC and transparent (I have his passwords, etc.)

I was, and am, ambivalent about this. I had gotten myself to a place where I'd really dropped the rope and was ready to move on. However, I have a really hard time being the one to make the call to break up the family and doing everything I possibly can to give my children a two-parent household has always been extremely important to me. I don't want to look back on this with any regrets.

So, we're existing, together. One thing that has come up repeatedly here and with my IC is that H has tended to dump his emotional processing on me, from trying to get me to make this decision (stay or go) for him to how he feels about AP. I have a boundary around talking about how he feels about AP and have generally been trying to avoid any R-ish talks. He's been all over the place, from planning a house renovation to moping about and saying he's worried I have second thoughts. I've been trying to focus on myself. I'll repost the last entry from my last thread for continuity.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2904761 09/30/20 01:06 AM
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...

I see how separating would make all this so much easier. But to me, it still feels like giving up any chance at reconciliation if we split. And, I've spent some time on the negative side of this-- not my usual MO, as I usually like to focus on achieving what I want vs avoiding what I don't want... but in this case, I also think that there are a series of outcomes that I really, truly don't want, including AP moving out here and having contact with my children (still have the blind rage if I sit in this), and in the nearer term trying to navigate COVID whilst going through an S or D and with the outlets I'd have at any other time-- being able to spend time with friends here, ability to have say my mom come out and stay with me for awhile-- being gone, for now. My support system is very, very truncated at the moment. Some of my close friends here are also not taking COVID as seriously as we are, and I am also feeing those relationships fraying somewhat because of this.

So when I try to take that 30,000 foot view-- that if I keep chugging along and focusing on me, not making any big moves, etc.-- hopefully with time we'll move to a place where AP is more likely to be out of the picture, either because she's moved on or he's successfully worked to get her out of his head, COVID restrictions will eventually be lifted and I could rely on my support system for real support rather than phone calls, if we end up splitting. And possibly the time passing and space for us to each work on our own $hit will make the possibility of true reconciliation/piecing possible. I don't know. But focusing on the long game is helping me to detach and keep moving forward, one day at a time.

We have mostly had good days since I posted last, until yesterday. H was a bit of an a-hole and I called him out on it. He got really grumpy and yelled at the kids and stomped all around for the rest of the day/evening. Super touchy. He asked me why I'd been so mean all day and said "if you are going to just act like an @sshole, you should sleep somewhere else". It seemed to me so clear that he was just trying to deflect his own feelings of guilt about his behavior onto me. I truly had said very little to him, except telling him he was being an @sshole when he actually was. And he really shouldn't have yelled at the kids the way he did. He apologized to them (not to me), went to bed early and woke up grumpy again. I know I have to just let it be and not engage. It's hard, though. Like totally flipping the relationship dynamics of the past 17 years upside down.

Thinking of all you guys. xx


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2904764 09/30/20 01:59 AM
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May, I'm sorry I haven't been in touch. I needed to not be here, but I have periodically checked in on you silently.

After months of keeping tabs on you, I have only a bit to offer you.

The one thing I see you do time and time again is draw lines the sand. State how it must be, or what will be a deal-breaker for you. I see you spinning and exhausting yourself. It is my hope that you are able to stop spinning by no longer drawing up the rules of the game. You are trying to control your environment, and it is not yours to control. It's not a choose-your-own-adventure book where you have a singular path ahead depending on what you do tomorrow. Every day a thousand more doors open, and I really want you to stop trying to predict them (don't write your future....).

You step in and out of seeing this, and more and more with your ambivalence you are acting in a less attached way. I'm seeing it peek through.

Originally Posted by May22
But to me, it still feels like giving up any chance at reconciliation if we split.


This is one of your often repeated lines. It's a valid feeling, and I understand it. I've had similar experiences/feelings. But I might suggest you stop repeating it to yourself, because you're solidifying it. I think you would move forward in a smoother way if you could say calmly that you don't know what the future holds - EVEN if you split for a while. Even if H moved to an apartment for a while. Whatever might happen next does not set your entire future in stone.

All this to say - slow and steady. Other posters have had great discussions with you on your H. Yes, they are right that he is a self centered *bleep* and yes you are right that he's not all bad all the time...he's human. You're human. He has done some purely *bleep* things, and has a lot of growth to do that is not your responsibility. I hope he gets there.

No decisions need to be made today. Keep working on your portion of your stuff, and leave H to work on his. I really do think of you, and hope you keep moving forward.

may22 #2904766 09/30/20 02:17 AM
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I totally understand how you would rather just have things "stay" the way they are during this pandemic. Things are already tough enough. Another way to look at it though, is that there is no better time to live your life the way you want to. Life is hard, circumstances are tough, our time here is limited. I'm not advocating for one way or another, but just want you to keep an open mind. I think like Yail said, it is worth going back to that statement "It feels like giving up any chance at reconciliation if we split" often and examine why it only feels that way for you. You've almost always have kept an open mind when it comes to judging your H. But do that for yourself also.

xoxo


BD: Sep 2019
D in progress
may22 #2904770 09/30/20 03:32 AM
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Hi Yail... so good to hear from you. I think about you a lot too. I made chicken liver pate and bacon onion jam today and both turned out really really well. Super easy too. I always feel so accomplished with little things like this smile and also think about you!!

Thanks for checking in. I feel like I am getting a bit more distance on all of this and dropping control, a little bit at a time. I think I've dropped it and then after a little while I still see how much more I have to go. It is like my pockets are full of tiny pebbles and every time I drop the one in my hand I feel like I've made such progress, and then I eventually put my hand back in my pocket and realize yes, there's still another pebble in there.

I do think that getting to that space-- even if it was only for a few days-- when I was ready to move on, was really empowering for me. I still have almost a letdown feeling when I look at all his books in the bookshelf and imagine what it would be like if they were all gone and it was only my stuff. I was ready to order new pictures of just the kids and me for all the picture frames in the house. I had the plans of who I was going to call and let know what was going on.

In fact, the day H started waffling I had almost called a mutual friend to tell him what was happening, because I know he cares and we've talked a lot about (other people's) relationships together. H, this friend and I are all on a text thread and maybe a little bit of what I wanted to do was punish H, take away one of his friends-- I know for sure this friend would despise H for what he's done, even though they're friends as well-- but I also feel so lonely and like I'm holding back by keeping silent on this huge thing happening in my life to my closest IRL friends and family. I feel like I'm lying. The idea of opening up to them is hard to explain-- both almost overwhelmingly attractive for the support I know I'd get, plus long-term concern about what them knowing would mean if H and I stay together.

Anyway, I talked about it with my IC last week, whether or not to open up to a few more people. The problem is what H has done is just SO GD bad. It isn't like a little f up. But it really bothers me to feel like I'm protecting this liar from the consequences of his own actions by my silence. I'm still not sure where I'm going to land on this, but one thing I do know is that I will (no line in the sand here, I swear) reach out to these folks if it happens again. I'm solid on that one.

Wooba, thinking on what you have said too, and both of you about examining my fears about separating and why that is so difficult for me... I know it will seem like I'm leaning on my kids here and pretending it is about them when it is really about my own fears, but I do have a lot of worry about what it would mean to them, plus selfishly not wanting to give up 50% of my time with them. I just feel so strongly that I didn't sign up for 50% time with my kids. I get it that it might have to happen and I can hate H all the way to my grave... I just don't want to have to hate MYSELF for it too. Maybe something to continue to work on with my IC.

Wooba, I also like what you are saying about COVID being a time to live your life the way you want. I've been thinking over the weekend about COVID and what I want to accomplish during this time, for me. I've been focusing recently on the negatives, but I want to relook at the possibilities. To take advantage of the WFH and not being able to go anywhere or do anything and turn it on its head. So what I've been noodling about is meditating. I went to a yoga and meditation retreat specifically to learn how to meditate last summer, and I've let it all slide and never really kept it up once I got home (got BDed soon after my return).

But this idea of being in the moment, focusing on today and not writing my future, as SamCal and Sage have said redrawing the map with a clean sheet of paper... I'm feeling like a practice of meditation can help me with this, and if I can really do it and keep it up it will be a lifetime gift I give myself. I still haven't been able to drag myself yet back into exercise or yoga, even. Maybe if I can just think about one day at a time, I can start to add these things back in, and start even a tiny little meditation every day.

xx thanks, guys. You mean so much to me.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2904774 09/30/20 05:11 AM
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May, firstly, can I just say what a catch you are? You are wise, self-reflective, smart, kind, inclusive and so loving. I feel lucky for your love and support and we don’t even know each other IRL. Your real-life people are so fortunate to have you in their life, whether it is friends or your children and especially your H. So keep walking forth with the knowledge that you are amazing and deserving of the best that life has to offer. Whether you meditate or do more yoga or tell mutual friend about your sitch, whether you change or just stay in the exact same spot for a long time, you are still worthy of the best.

I hope that your decision to keep your situation under wraps doesn’t inhibit your ability to get the support you need. Only you know what damage it could do, so I completely trust your intuition here. And I know that H’s behavior and your decision to stay at the moment has a certain societally-constructed reflection on you that you may be avoiding, but in the vein of you supporting H vs supporting yourself, it is something worth examining.

In the meantime, you are on the right path: examining where you stand on your lines in the sand, reflecting on what serves you best in the current moment and focusing on yourself. You go, girl.

Xx

may22 #2904780 09/30/20 12:14 PM
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May - maybe it is worth thinking about some more IRL support. It seems your only reason for not sharing your current situation with one or two carefully chosen friends (my boundary is that I only talk to women about problems in my marriage - because that is what I'd want and expect from my H - that after his EA he has lost the right to have those types of intimate friendships with women and I want to live my own values in that way too) is that they'd somehow disapprove of your H's choices and actions? You're protecting him from the disapproval that you imagine other people would feel if you asked them for support?

Both you and I know there is productive, heart-felt, woman-to-woman support that might include a bit of venting and dark humour, but which is about lifting you up, helping you find your own best path, and comforting and caring for you. And we also know there is venting, using a sob-story to play the victim, using your wounds to attract or manipulate others in unhealthy ways, forcing mutual friends to take sides, point scoring, etc.

I KNOW you have no intention of doing the second. But why deprive yourself of the first? I have a couple of friends I confide in. My H is no longer comfortable around them. That's his choice, his lane, and one of the milder consequences he faces from behaving abusively, having an EA and lying about it. I don't seek closeness with friends to punish him - I seek it because it is healthy and good for me and helps me make decisions for the benefit of myself and my marriage. If he feels bad about it, that's his work, not mine.

Please confide in someone May. You are walking a hard road here, and you are making it harder than it needs to be for the benefit of your H - and it isn't respectful, healthy or appropriate that you do that work of keeping him coddled in comfort anymore.

may22 #2904819 09/30/20 08:03 PM
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Sage, thank you... that warms my heart smile I feel I need constant reminders, also, to keep the focus on me, what serves me best today, releasing control over what may or may not be going on in my H's thick head.

I do feel a little bit of societal disapproval will surface with my choice to stay in this M after what H has done. (It even comes across on this forum.) I know my friends and family care about me, first and foremost, and I feel like it would be easy to tell them and lean on them if we are S. I feel it would be much more complicated if I tell them and I'm staying.

Alison, thank you-- I have told one friend IRL, back in January, and she is an absolute lifesaver for me. (I think you or others encouraged me to do it back then, and I'm so glad I did.) She calls or texts just to check in on me, and I feel she is 100% there for me while also respecting my choices. I told H that I'd told her this last go-round, and he said that made him feel really uncomfortable that she knows. Too bad-- I have zero guilt about this. And, I am beyond glad that I have her to lean on. Her H also cheated on her and they're now D, and so she understands a lot of what I'm going through.

The other friend who I really want to tell, whom I feel the most dishonest with, is my other closest female friend. We have talked about our relationships for hours and she knows a lot of H's MLC-like behavior and the SSM, but not about the A. We have traveled together during the time of the A when H was in his alien mode and she and her H witnessed some pretty awful behavior of H's towards me, and she asked me about it later, how she and her H should handle it if it happened again (I'd suggested we drive a particular route to go somewhere, everyone agreed, traffic ensued, and he threw a total sh!t fit, blaming me for the traffic, he knew it was a bad idea, blah blah blah. It was really embarrassing and in the moment I just let him rant and ignored it. But this was like two and a half years ago, before I knew anything about the A, ILYBINILWY, etc.)

I really don't think I can tell her if I stay with H. We are close couple friends and even if she understands my choice, the situation with the kids, etc.-- which I think she would and would be supportive-- her H's dad had an A and left his mom for the OW, and he's been scarred by it his whole life. They cut off communication with her H's brother for a time when it turned out he'd cheated on his wife. Her H will probably want to beat the $hit out of my H and I know it will ruin our family friendship forever. Our girls are close friends and I just feel like it won't be the same with them anymore. Also, I love her dearly, but she can't keep a secret if her life depended on it. So I think I might have to look elsewhere for another confidant if I want another perspective.

Thanks for continuing to support and push me, guys.

xx M


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2904826 09/30/20 09:47 PM
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Oh, and let me also say... H's behavior is really erratic. I think he is maybe depressed. He swings back and forth between being nice and being a total duck, like back to the days of alien H duck-ness in the first year of the A. He had been doing a lot more in terms of cooking/cleaning since back in Feb., and that has all gone away in the last week.

Last night he started to do the dishes after dinner (I hadn't said anything, but I'd cooked three meals and cleaned up after the first two) and then went into a rant about how the house was so messy, he wouldn't have agreed to the kittens if he realized they would have so much stuff (toys) around the house, he can't live like this anymore. I listened and validated and said I agree, I'd like our house to be cleaner, if you helped clean up too then our house would be spotless. (Should I have let that last part go?)

He flamed at me that I say I clean up but we have different standards of cleanliness, the reason he's telling me is because when he had problems in our relationship in the past I complained that he hadn't told me (he's referring to the SSM) so here, he's telling me. He can't live like this. I just walked away. It is infuriating as I have been doing 100% of the cleaning, I'm vacuuming every day because of the kittens, picking up after him and the kids and the cats, I can't recall the last time I saw him pick up or vacuum, dust, or clean the bathrooms (he does clean up the kitchen but maybe 25% of the time)-- and somehow I have lower cleanliness standards than he does.

But, I didn't respond. He had a few other snippy comments for me until I told him to please cool it and take it down a notch. He went to bed early. Kids started in-person school this week (crazy and scary also) and I came home from dropping them off, he is sitting on the couch watching a baseball game instead of working, with dishes all over the kitchen from the breakfast he cooked for himself while I was gone.

Last night was also our neighbor's D8 (now D9)'s birthday, she asked if we could do the cake with her outside. H was watching TV and was totally not responding to our neighbor's texts until finally I said, you need to do this. This is about (little girl) and her BIRTHDAY. She wants to share it with us and her kids. She can't have a real birthday party. Get your @ss up and come participate. He said, I hate you (in a fake joking way) and came.

Anyway. I'm struggling with how to handle this angry a-hole living in my house. So far I've been mostly ignoring it and walking away if necessary. He's yelled the kids and I've intervened if I thought necessary, though not in a way that challenged him directly.

In the past (like when he acted like this during the A) I would get so angry-- seeing the dishes he'd leave in the sink instead of just putting them into the dishwasher would send me into a fury, and if I ended up doing them so that I could cook dinner, I'd just be so frustrated and angry the whole time. Then I got to a place where I didn't really care that much and that's where I've been-- if I see dishes in the sink and I want them cleaned, I clean them without worrying about who might have left them there. If I don't need them cleaned, I leave them and he'll generally get to them later on. (Guess my low cleanliness standards are really shining through there! smile )

I don't want to go back to the angry me regarding the day-to-day stuff, though-- life is too short and I just don't really care that much about dishes. I want to save my anger for the good stuff, like, you know, lies and betrayal. smile

I see him wallowing in this self-pity and belief that his life is so awful, and it makes me mad, especially when I think about this being all of his own making and his total focus on feeling sorry for himself rather than on what he's done to me. Frankly I am losing the last shreds of respect I had for him. He can't even get his head out of his own @ss enough to take a look at the situation we're in and work to make it better. He is just a sad, sorry sack.

Anyway, advice on how to deal with this, understanding I'm not, today, asking him to leave. I just need to figure out how to maneuver around him in my house without letting it affect my mood or work... but also, there is a part of me that doesn't want to let him get away with this kind of behavior. Is that just my control peeking back out and setting up a parental dynamic that we need to get away from? He can act like an @ss as much as he wants as long as it doesn't affect me or the kids? And/or, if he's really going through some sort of withdrawal/grief/loss process, should I have more compassion for him?


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2904837 10/01/20 02:26 AM
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May, sorry that you are dealing with a whiny teenage boy currently.

I do want to say that I definitely understand not wanting to tell IRL people about what's going on - I felt that way about IRL people and also here for a while, because it just gets exhausting going from unloading about how H is being a butth0le to then having to defend H, especially to people that you know care about you, since they want to see you not be in a painful situation anymore so want you to exit ASAP. I think it's good you told at least one IRL person, and your IC obv. I asked my H not to tell anyone (I can see him getting drunk and emotional and talking about it), and I said I didn't want to tell anyone, either, but I did tell a mutual friend (I told him I was going to talk to her about it before I did, because I felt I needed more support at that point in time, and I knew I could get it from her without judgment). My H and I had several long talks about "friends of the marriage" that you have also probably read about in Gottman books, and that has helped both of us a lot.

It sounds frustrating for you to see your H mope around and throwing himself a pity party. That takes a lot of emotional bandwidth, and I am sure you'd rather him use that bandwidth in more productive ways. I don't think I have any actual advice - my knee jerk is to say just leave him alone and let him act like a mopey man, but I wonder if he will use this as another example of how you don't "see" him. (which, to diverge, is frustrating to read about b/c it's ridiculous. It reads as though he doesn't feel "seen" because you don't agree with him or what he wants to do - like, you can see him/understand a situation but still not agree with it. Like he'd feel seen if you complied with his "reasonings" or whatever). I do think it'd best to steer clear in the vein of him handling his own emotions and not dumping them on you
like he has in the past. Is he expecting you to feel sorry for him here? I know you know what he is going through right now is a reflection of him, and not you, but functionally day to day that can affect you, esp if you're having to step in when he is a turd to your girls. I think as long as you are steering clear and ensuring that you are not an outlet for rage/frustration right now, that'd be beneficial.

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