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may22 #2904407 09/24/20 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by may22
I also suggested taking more space from each other in the house. Even if we aren't separated, to not expect to spend time together in the evenings after the kids go down. To do our own thing. He didn't agree to it exactly--
This is really good and it is interesting how your H is responding. You are so good at this May, it's fantastic that you are in a place where you can be liberated in your own home. My H is responding the same way - he doesn't like it if I choose to read on the bed while he is downstairs cooking dinner, or if we are watching his programme on TV and I read on my ipad, for example. I find this so frustrating - that these WAHs can live this lie of a life, not needing our company whilst being entertained by OW, but have huge expectations whilst at home (and I don't believe it is purely down to the desire to reconcile). Alison used the term 'supply' which does suggest a narcissistic trait, and I do feel it is true, that both our Hs need a constant supply of attention and are not comfortable in their own company. I do know for a fact that my H does not like himself much right now. How does your H feel about himself? .

Originally Posted by may22
In terms of trusting again... I know I've said this before but I'm a trusting fool. I can't help it, it is who I am. I have to consciously remind myself NOT to trust H right now. Maybe I'm missing a spidey sense. It has burnt me professionally and (clearly now) personally but I'm OK with it. It is part of who I am and I don't want to lose that just because H is an unworthy duck.
You and me both May - the trust counter with my H has been reset to zero (probably more like -100), but I have this amazing capability to forgive and forget. How do you interact with H when you have to remind yourself not to trust him? I am struggling with this - I still naturally want to be loving, even in the aftermath of another mini-BD, and I feel like it sends the message that I am accepting his behaviours. (I need to post about this on my own thread.)

Originally Posted by may22
In terms of communicating to him there is nothing he could do to end this M... he's said something twice over the past couple of days that was confusing to me, and I'm not sure how to respond, so I haven't. He said maybe it would be better if I could tell him if he contacted her again it would absolutely be over and I would kick him out of the house. Part of me thinks he wants an ultimatum to help him keep to his decision and the other (larger) half of me thinks he wants to be able to shove it all off on me and just wants an excuse. So I've just not responded, but would be interested in your interpretations.
When my H left amidst his 'confusion' he said he wanted to know what it felt like to really lose me, to know that I wasn't there for him as a W anymore. He said everything he had in life he had worked hard for, and he needed to feel like he had earned me. Tbh I thought this last bit was complete BS, although there is an element in truth of wanting what we cant have, thrill of the chase etc. I would say you are right on both counts - he needs to know he's used up all his 9 lives, and he wants to know that if he did transgress, he wouldn't be faced with a difficult decision of leaving you - you would kindly do it for him. I really do think your H does need to know what it feels like to have lost you. Your door is always open for him (I am guilty of the same). I would respond to his question with a question - "why do you think it will be better if I said that?"

I can see you making so much progress May. As for H, he seems to be making a concerted effort to do the right thing, even if his feelings are playing catchup. It's perfectly right that you now move forwards on your own timelines. I just wondered if you are making time for "date night" (even if under lockdown), R discussions off limits, doing something fun together just the two of you? How do you feel about showing him love and warmth? (I'm asking for myself!!)


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020
Recon #2: since Nov 2020
may22 #2904408 09/24/20 11:37 AM
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he's said something twice over the past couple of days that was confusing to me, and I'm not sure how to respond, so I haven't. He said maybe it would be better if I could tell him if he contacted her again it would absolutely be over and I would kick him out of the house.


He wants you to be mommy so he can blame you when he's unhappy or messes up. Stay well out of the way of this. He's in the house because he's choosing to be, right now. You're not kicking him out or making solid plans to leave him, right now. Those things speak louder than anything either of you say at the moment, so you may as well just duck out of these conversations.

You can decide what your lines in the sand are (and deciding there's actually nothing he can do that would make you kick him out is entirely up to you - and it is what you're communicating right now with your actions - and that's a perfectly fine choice to make if that's the truth of where you are) but there's no point discussing them with him. Boundaries are things that you enact, not that you describe and discuss and get negotiation on and agreement for in advance.

I have a boundary around keeping confidences. If a friend breaks a confidence, I never tell them anything personal again. But I've never said to my friends 'by the way, this is how I do friendship, here are my rules, just so you know' and when I have drawn that boundary, I've never said, 'right, now the terms of our friendship have changes and here are the topics we will no longer be discussing. Is that okay with you?' - I just live it. I think boundaries work best (for me) when they are totally silent.

(And I will update my thread! Very soon!)

Last edited by AlisonUK; 09/24/20 11:37 AM.
may22 #2904424 09/24/20 03:14 PM
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Oh boy. He pretty much told you, I am trampling on your boundaries because you let me.

And he needs to be a big boy, take responsibility and do his own healing. He wants everything to be on you. This is not your job.

But he knows you won’t kick him out. And he pretty much told you that’s a reason why he is so wish washy with other woman. He knows he can do it and he still gets to stay so it gets very tempting to him.

may22 #2904425 09/24/20 03:25 PM
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For clarification, I’m not telling to kick him out. I promised not to do that. But please don’t take on his work he needs to do for himself. He’s got to want it, and he’s the only one who can do it .

may22 #2904428 09/24/20 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by may22
Question-- do you think that validating him right now interferes with his need to work on himself without leaning on me?


I think the bigger question is why are you asking this? Is it control? Is it fear?

You can validate people all the time w/o engaging or even accepting it as true for you. You are just understanding that they are in pain.

Originally Posted by may22
I also suggested taking more space from each other in the house. Even if we aren't separated, to not expect to spend time together in the evenings after the kids go down. To do our own thing. He didn't agree to it exactly-- I kind of laid it out there are something to consider, and he seemed open to it-- but I think the next time we talk I'll say it is what I need right now. I know I've fed this dynamic for a very very long time, and I need to constantly be thinking and consciously letting go, not interacting, not responding to him and also not dumping my own $hit on him either, which I've also done for years.


As Alison said... boundaries are actions. You really don't have to tell him anything... just take the space. I understand that when you did - he got a little panicked.. but that's in his lane.

There seems to be a pattern based on your posts that when May focuses on May... H gets uncomfortable, lashes out, acts childish...whatever. You try to communicate with him as loving as you can why you doing what you are doing in the hopes that he will respond differently. You tell him your needs hoping he will respect them. But he only does this as long as he is comfortable.

He needs to learn to get comfortable with his feelings. May you can't help him through this. That's his journey. His lane.

I feel for you and can relate in so many ways. Your relationship dynamic has taught you to control your relationship... but perhaps part of you controlling it is because if you let H be the way he is acting now - he would show you things he didn't want to see. You would have to make decisions you don't want to make.

I'm not saying a D or S, but for now.... it could just be your taking care of self. Stop pursuing him. The relationship. Etc. Let him act his way. Validate that you understand he's upset, but you still have to make the decision for YOU. And then see how the pattern changes. It will be a "HOW" if you stick to your part.

It will be uncomfortable for him. It will be uncomfortable for you. Change usually is.

((May))


M(f): 40
D'ed: 8/12

Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.

Love at all costs because you are loved well.
Valeska19 #2904455 09/25/20 12:45 AM
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Thanks Pommy, Alison, Valeska.

Originally Posted by Pommy99
Alison used the term 'supply' which does suggest a narcissistic trait, and I do feel it is true, that both our Hs need a constant supply of attention and are not comfortable in their own company. I do know for a fact that my H does not like himself much right now. How does your H feel about himself?

He does not like himself very much either, which is a very very very uncomfortable place for him to be. He says he wants to work with his IC on his identity, who he is, what does it mean that he was capable of such enormous betrayal. On how to be a better person. And at the same time not wanting to throw out everything associated with the A in the garbage (a bit of MLC/YOLO stuff). We had a conversation about an indigenous perspective of having responsibilities vs having rights, and he very much wants to be someone who cares first and foremost about his responsibilities.

I'd say, though, my H is comfortable generally in his own company. he just needs/wants my approval and buy-in. I think the fact that I'm not, this time, saying "oh great, thank you H for ditching your OW, you've done the right thing" like I was the first time around, and also not being super angry and telling him over and over "you're an irredeemable duck" for having had the A, like I did on the trip, is making him uncomfortable. He said to me, if he'd left for AP, at least he knows she would have been happy. I haven't yelled at him or been really nice to him. I've just been. I have said when it occurs to me that I feel betrayed, I can't trust him, and he's listened and accepted that. I feel like in not giving him something to react to it is forcing him to think about stuff more on his own and with his IC. Which I do think is happening. The week he almost left I told him I thought he was a narcissist. He told me last week he read up on narcissism, talked to his IC about it, reviewed the different types, thinks some things fit and others don't. He talked to his IC about taking the inventory test. We'll see. Maybe just another ploy for attention.

Originally Posted by Pommy99
How do you interact with H when you have to remind yourself not to trust him?

I'm trying to gut check my natural (or maybe habituated) responses before responding either to him, or when I have an urge to go talk to him about something. I can, if I want, let it go and have fun with him. I've only let myself do this a couple of times. If I feel the anxiety pit of not trusting him, I listen to it and don't engage-- I feel like the first time around I would have shoved it down and acted as-if, the second time around I would have spewed my feelings onto him. This time, I think about other ways to soothe myself that don't involve H.

I think acting as-if has its place... I was thinking about your situation, and being the loving wife whilst your H hasn't committed to cutting off all contact with OW-- and thinking, maybe this is a cheeseless tunnel for you. Acting as-if and being the loving wife hasn't gotten you where you want to go. Instead, it seems to have enabled your H's continued cake-eating and waffling/ambivalence. I believe this was the case in my own sitch and something I need to remember and guard against. So, maybe don't act the loving wife anymore?

Originally Posted by Pommy99
would say you are right on both counts - he needs to know he's used up all his 9 lives, and he wants to know that if he did transgress, he wouldn't be faced with a difficult decision of leaving you - you would kindly do it for him.

I think you're right on in this interpretation. I think I'll just leave it without responding, though maybe asking him that "why do you ask" question would also be interesting. My plans are for me. Alison and Valeska, I also see your points in that I've done this in the past where I talk through my reasoning or boundaries with him and that gives him a chance to poke holes or push things or whatever. In this case, you're absolutely right, Alison, in that there will be no need for words.

Generally, with the added distance I have in my head right now having been ready to S/D and not engaging as I have in the past, I feel like I've tried different things that haven't worked, and from a DB perspective now trying something different-- something that is harder on me, for sure, to button my lip and not engage-- but knowing that what I did in the past didn't work for either of us, so time to try something new, and something just on me that doesn't require his participation.

Alison, Ginger, it has been just two weeks now since he said he was choosing the M and just about a week since he told her it was over. I believe him that he isn't in contact with her. Whether that remains the status quo is yet to be seen. I also don't know if he is actually working in his head to actively disentangle himself from her emotionally, like he said he would. But that is all beyond my control. he will or he won't. But, I will say that he hasn't been wishy-washy about her since he made that decision. Again, only two weeks. But his behavior and words are very different this time. I'm not trying to justify my decision or make you guys think I did the right thing-- I'm fairly confident a good number of people following along are thinking I'm just delaying the inevitable and taking over/unders on when he'll be back in touch with AP-- but, I am where I am, today.

I feel like if I was going to kick him out, I either should have done it back when he was still talking with her, or in the future if/when he does again. Right now doesn't make a ton of sense to me as I do believe he is trying and this isn't something where you'd expect to have any real change in just a couple of weeks. So, the best I can do given where I am right now is to -- as you've all been saying-- buckle down, focus on me, detach.

And, I talked to my IC yesterday about helping me to enforce the boundary of kicking him out if he gets back in touch with her. So you guys too-- please keep me honest here (really honest, not Lindsay Graham honest). If he gets back in touch with her, he's out. The post-nup will be signed, all the financial details worked out. The only things to do will be getting him out ASAP and what we tell the kids. I'm trying to set myself up for as easy a transition with as much support as possible to ensure I can follow through.

Originally Posted by Valeska19
Originally Posted by may22
Question-- do you think that validating him right now interferes with his need to work on himself without leaning on me?


I think the bigger question is why are you asking this? Is it control? Is it fear?

You can validate people all the time w/o engaging or even accepting it as true for you. You are just understanding that they are in pain.

I think the reason I asked this was because folks here and my IC have been very very clear that this is his work to do, not mine, and I need to stop shouldering his emotional processing load for both of our sakes. So I guess I was wondering if validation counted as helping him to do the work that is really his to do, not mine. Is the act of validating helping take off some of his mental burden? I am definitely not open to validating or listening at all to him processing his feelings around AP-- that is a boundary for me and easy to enforce. But his concerns about his own identity, why he did this, and both his hurt from the SSM in the past and his worry that we'll slide back into it eventually-- I'm unsure if listening or validating these thoughts is crossing any lines. (I feel a little bit like the SSM talk is-- I told him last time he brought it up that I'd be happy to discuss it once he was over AP, but in the near term it didn't feel good on my end to discuss it. I'm not sure if that is a boundary for my own safety, or if it is a discomfort I need to push through eventually.)

Originally Posted by Pommy99
I just wondered if you are making time for "date night" (even if under lockdown), R discussions off limits, doing something fun together just the two of you? How do you feel about showing him love and warmth? (I'm asking for myself!!)

Yes, I've given myself permission to have sort of a truce twice now, both Saturday nights. We've had some drinks, hung out, chatted. Stayed away from R talks. (maybe had a bit too much to drink and blew our shared/agreed upon boundary of no physical intimacy for the time being last weekend... oh well.) Not sure if this generally is a good idea or a bad one. It does help me to blow off some of the steam and weirdness between us to have a little window of what was normal before, focusing on the positives of what we do still have between us rather than what we don't.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2904458 09/25/20 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Valeska19
Originally Posted by may22
Question-- do you think that validating him right now interferes with his need to work on himself without leaning on me?


I think the bigger question is why are you asking this? Is it control? Is it fear?

You can validate people all the time w/o engaging or even accepting it as true for you. You are just understanding that they are in pain.

Originally Posted by may22
I think the reason I asked this was because folks here and my IC have been very very clear that this is his work to do, not mine, and I need to stop shouldering his emotional processing load for both of our sakes. So I guess I was wondering if validation counted as helping him to do the work that is really his to do, not mine. Is the act of validating helping take off some of his mental burden? I am definitely not open to validating or listening at all to him processing his feelings around AP-- that is a boundary for me and easy to enforce. But his concerns about his own identity, why he did this, and both his hurt from the SSM in the past and his worry that we'll slide back into it eventually-- I'm unsure if listening or validating these thoughts is crossing any lines. (I feel a little bit like the SSM talk is-- I told him last time he brought it up that I'd be happy to discuss it once he was over AP, but in the near term it didn't feel good on my end to discuss it. I'm not sure if that is a boundary for my own safety, or if it is a discomfort I need to push through eventually.)


I personally think it just doesn't add fuel to the fire. You certainly don't have to validate him at all. It's your choice.
I'm starting to use "I hear you" more often. It felt uncomfortable at first but now I just leave it at that and continue on.
It helps me with a self boundary to not be tempted to allow that shoulder to cry on or to absorb more than I need to.


M(f): 40
D'ed: 8/12

Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.

Love at all costs because you are loved well.
may22 #2904461 09/25/20 08:28 AM
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Valeska, that makes sense. I think I will try to validate as long as I don't feel it is crossing into any boundaries of mine (talking about AP, for instance) and as long as I feel good in the process.

So, the thing about this trip-- there was one major thing that was making me feel like I was an appendage rather than a partner in the trip. It is hard to explain without getting into too many details, but something I'd felt really uncomfortable about in the spring but elected to not make a big deal about (b/c pressure). When he reopened the trip discussions with me this element slapped me in the face-- basically how he was framing it, as a father-daughter trip. In the midst of the conversation last night I said that particular framing made me feel excluded and that was one of the things he got totally upset and defensive about.

Today, in the middle of the day he showed me some planning portions of it, and he'd completely changed the framing to remove the elements that made it seem like I was invisible. I was honestly really touched. I feel like I should reinforce this but a voice in the back of my head is saying not to make too big a deal about it either. I said, thank you, that means a lot, but didn't go into any more about it.

Then tonight I had some zoom cocktails with a fellowship group I'm a part of (we were supposed to be at this dreamy resort for a retreat this week and instead we're all just zooming, ugh) and he was great, totally gave me my space, did his own thing but was friendly and kind, took care of the kids going to bed and then went to bed early himself, while I may stay up a bit later, finish my glass of wine and read my book. Not a bad day/night.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2904472 09/25/20 12:39 PM
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May,

one thing I read somewhere, which was really powerful to me, was that pretty much all human communication can be boiled down to 'please can I have this' or 'thank you for this' or 'yes I will give you this' or 'no I can't give you that.'

It has helped me listen to H differently. Now I listen for the request, and decide if my answer is 'yes I will give you this' or 'no I can't give you that'. Sometimes he is venting and by doing that he seems to be asking 'please will you listen to me as I find that comforting' or 'please will you do or say something so that I feel different'. As soon as I have identified the request - or understand that he is giving a 'yes' or a 'no' to one of mine, I act accordingly.

It can take a while to understand what the request is. Sometimes someone seems to want reassurance, but they actually want you to take the blame. Sometimes someone wants permission to set a boundary, or reassurance that if they do set a boundary, the other won't be angry or withdraw. I think adult communication involves staying in the moment, making requests and not demands, and being clear in your yes and no. It's simple, and also very difficult.

I think your husband is repeatedly saying some version of 'please will you make me feel better' - his fantasy D was about feeling better. Working on you to accept blame was about making him feel better. Agreeing to the trip then agreeing to being friends after the D wasn't about those things really but about making him feel better. Now, him wanting help through his process, and reassurance about what the future will look like, and signs of your commitment are all about him wanting you to make him feel better. I don't think you need to say many words to answer those requests. You can just gently step away and live your no. He NEEDS to feel some pain or he won't change. You aren't punishing him, you're just saying no to what he is asking for.

may22 #2904682 09/28/20 08:09 PM
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Hi Alison,

I had a visceral response to this theory and needed to sit with it for awhile. At first, it felt really transactional and that it didn't allow for altruistic behavior or communication at all. After reading it a few times and sitting with it over the past couple of days, I see how altruism has a place here-- and not that altruism has any place in my husband's behavior or communication right now, nor my own. smile

And, regardless, I agree that my H is repeatedly saying some version of please help make me feel better. And it really isn't my job to do that. (His lane, Valeska-- that terminology helps me.) He needs to find his own way. And I know I also have a lot of healing to do, both in terms of dealing with the hurt and betrayal and anger as well as what I want or need myself for my own future.

I'm having a hard time grappling with the fact that I am going to need to do this all on my own too. Even though my H is here in his body, he isn't someone I can lean on to help me heal and process my own issues. It makes me sad, thinking about that. I know am actively choosing this path. It just feels lonely. I guess I'm alone either way. I get angry, sometimes, thinking of how selfish and weak my H is.

I see how separating would make all this so much easier. But to me, it still feels like giving up any chance at reconciliation if we split. And, I've spent some time on the negative side of this-- not my usual MO, as I usually like to focus on achieving what I want vs avoiding what I don't want... but in this case, I also think that there are a series of outcomes that I really, truly don't want, including AP moving out here and having contact with my children (still have the blind rage if I sit in this), and in the nearer term trying to navigate COVID whilst going through an S or D and with the outlets I'd have at any other time-- being able to spend time with friends here, ability to have say my mom come out and stay with me for awhile-- being gone, for now. My support system is very, very truncated at the moment. Some of my close friends here are also not taking COVID as seriously as we are, and I am also feeing those relationships fraying somewhat because of this.

So when I try to take that 30,000 foot view-- that if I keep chugging along and focusing on me, not making any big moves, etc.-- hopefully with time we'll move to a place where AP is more likely to be out of the picture, either because she's moved on or he's successfully worked to get her out of his head, COVID restrictions will eventually be lifted and I could rely on my support system for real support rather than phone calls, if we end up splitting. And possibly the time passing and space for us to each work on our own $hit will make the possibility of true reconciliation/piecing possible. I don't know. But focusing on the long game is helping me to detach and keep moving forward, one day at a time.

We have mostly had good days since I posted last, until yesterday. H was a bit of an a-hole and I called him out on it. He got really grumpy and yelled at the kids and stomped all around for the rest of the day/evening. Super touchy. He asked me why I'd been so mean all day and said "if you are going to just act like an @sshole, you should sleep somewhere else". It seemed to me so clear that he was just trying to deflect his own feelings of guilt about his behavior onto me. I truly had said very little to him, except telling him he was being an @sshole when he actually was. And he really shouldn't have yelled at the kids the way he did. He apologized to them (not to me), went to bed early and woke up grumpy again. I know I have to just let it be and not engage. It's hard, though. Like totally flipping the relationship dynamics of the past 17 years upside down.

Thinking of all you guys. xx


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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