[Eagle3]

I also have another question in regards to my S16.

I had a very open conversation this morning with him and it seems this all has a significant impact on him, much more then I expected. He even told me his feelings are becoming numb towards his father but also to other people which is not good. He also realizes this himself. Therefore I suggested to arrange a meeting with a psychologist and he agreed.

Is this something I need to inform STBXH about or not?

The problem is STBXH currently thinks he is a great father (most of the time, when he's not drunk), from the messages he's been sending them he really doesn't have any clue how the kids are feeling towards him.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Eagle

S16 seeing a psychologist is not something you must tell H. He has made it clear that you are to have sole custody. You are obligated to share matters of life and limb, the rest is up to you.

In this situation, I would specifically ask S16 if he wants Dad to know he is seeing and talking to someone. I suspect S16 will want his privacy. Assure him that you will honour his request, and if you ever have to explain S16’s sessions to Dad ensure you tell S16 of it and why it was needed.

This will help with S16’s rising feelings of indifference. That numb feeling is a healthy step along the path of healing. It is great to see you and son talking openly about it and other things. Assure him this numbness is temporary, as feelings are, and that it is completely normal and actually a good sign.

I am sure the other two boys are similarly feeling numb and somewhat lost. That is pretty normal since this is a never been lived through situation for them and you.

Dad will have little clue as to how the children are feeling towards him. A person in crisis is living a fantasy narrative and people are seldom the villain in their own stories. Let them tell you anything they want too. You need not have all the answers as oftentimes it is just they need someone to hear them.

Your double feeling. That wanting to let go and wanting to be there for H. I hear you.

There is a peace within the storm. Those two views are not as exclusive as one first sees them to be. You can do both. Consider what you can control. H is making his decisions and is running pretty hard and fast. You can care for him and let go.

Do not demonize him to the kids. Do not gloss over things either. Be open and honest (age appropriate of course). He is their Dad, and he is hurting. It is completely fine for you and them to let go, and in truth is needed. It is needed for you guys and for H.

H is driven to get space and distance from those that care, for he cannot handle that right now. MLC is such a messy emotional torment. The best way for you to be there for him is to not block his path. Let him go to make his decisions and gain the experience and consequences of those. Hopefully he will grow up, learn, and heal.

Letting go will allow you and the boys to heal as well. H’s path and pain is not, and has never been, about you nor the boys. You didn’t break him, therefore you cannot fix him. That lesson is age appropriate for all your sons. It helps with their indifference and to find acceptance of their feelings.

You are doing really well my friend.

D

[Eagle3]

Thanks again for the wise words DnJ, it helps me to follow the path of enlightenment every day.

STBXH has been very friendly for the last 2 weeks.
After his monster behavior during the divorce settlement of 2 weeks ago, he sent a message a few days later to say that he was sorry about his reaction and that he only wants what is best for everyone, but that not everyone has this with him…?

Since then he has been in touch almost every day, through messages or phone calls, usually concerning the divorce or the children, but he is very friendly towards me.

I am detached enough to handle it properly.

He did change his mind about selling the house. He now wants to buy it and is doing to utmost to get his loan. (don't understand why since he is living abroad, but I don't mind since the price he is paying me is very good and then I'm not in a hurry to have to leave the house)

Suddenly he also informed me about the fact he was seeing a therapist since this week.
I replied, good for you, I thought you were going to figure everything out yourself, he replied that he sees now that it is better to seek help and that he has now done this.
Hopefully for him he is telling the truth. This obviously doesn't affect me, but it would be a step forward for him.

I have a weird question. I have a feeling that he may have doubts about whether he wants to go ahead with the divorce. I do want to keep it going, though, because I am convinced he has a very, very long way to go.

How should I respond to that? I know this may not happen but I want to be prepared to be on the safe side.

I want to continue with the divorce (as said, financial security + peace of mind for children), but at the same time I also want to make it clear to him that I want to be there if he is working on himself. (but you cannot say that explicitly ... or they run again ... ;))

Any feedback is welcome.

[Traveler]

I have a feeling that he may have doubts about whether he wants to go ahead with the divorce. I want to continue with the divorce (as said, financial security + peace of mind for children), but at the same time I also want to make it clear to him that I want to be there if he is working on himself. (but you cannot say that explicitly ... or they run again ... ;))

Eagle3, I haven't read your whole situation, so please take this with that grain of salt. Are you saying if he expresses doubts and works on himself you're willing to wait for him, or you're willing to be there as a friend? If the former, have you considered a post-nuptial agreement? I have no experience, but some others here have done that. It spells out what happens if you get divorced, so you lock in that safety net, without stepping fully away.

[DnJ]

Hello Eagle

STBXH emotions and mood will cycle. Pleasant to monster and back and forth.

I have a feeling that he may have doubts about whether he wants to go ahead with the divorce. I do want to keep it going, though, because I am convinced he has a very, very long way to go.

Feelings are interesting. You are most likely picking up his small behaviours from his confused doubts and his new actions (counselling, buying house, and such). These queues mingle with your hopes and craft a feeling. You are probably right. STBXH has doubts about his plan and actions. However, do you about your’s?

How should I respond to that? I know this may not happen but I want to be prepared to be on the safe side.

I want to continue with the divorce (as said, financial security + peace of mind for children), but at the same time I also want to make it clear to him that I want to be there if he is working on himself. (but you cannot say that explicitly ... or they run again ... ;))

Keep the divorce businesslike. To be rather plain and straightforward, do not divorce because H has a very very long road ahead of him - none of us know how long his path is. Do not divorce for peace of mind for your children - they can achieve peace regardless of your martial status. Do divorce if it is needed for your financial security. Elsewise leave the heavy lifting to H.

You’ve stated you need the financial security and are proceeding with D. Feelings do muddy things a bit. Ensure your actions are logical and sound and not based upon emotions. For now and for the previous decision to divorce.

How to respond? This is twofold (at least). Would you consider delaying divorce proceedings? If so, why? Just a feeling or an actual recognized behavioural change that indicates possible betterment of H’s self outlook? Tough question, even tougher answer.

Do you want to be there for him if he is making progress? If so, in what capacity? Wife, friend, ex wife and kids’ Mom, or gal which may consider investigating the possibly of a future R? Or any mixture thereof I suppose.

So, how to respond is a difficult question with so many variables. Let’s simplify it a bit.

You only control you.

Do not attempt to manipulate H’s path. If his current wanting to purchase the house, and his present IC visits, actually continue and show long term demonstrated behaviours which lead to healing and better times for him, great. Encourage him, and remain backed off. It is his path.

If you desire or are willing to explore a possible reconciliation, H needs to walk his path all the way to the end. To when and where he consistently demonstrates good behaviours. An awakening is more than a single event or few moments. Many months of a calmer and healthier H will take place wth fewer and fewer relapses; you will know when he is ready. During that time you walk your path.

If you do not desire that, H still needs to walk his path. And you still walk your’s.

Which leads to - you control you.

What do you wants and need? Do you need financial security? Or is the D more from frustration? Or are you through? By the way, I do not believe you are through with him, otherwise you’d not be willing to be there if he works on himself. So...

If H comes out and states his doubts about D, tell him precisely why you are divorcing him and when and how you’d encourage him while he is working on himself. (This would include the D delay if you so choose that path) Without communication, accurate clear communication, nothing will be dealt with as well as it could be. For the most part, the MLCer or WAS is not going to be open and honest or listen to open and honest feedback. However, H might; and that is worth a shot. If he runs, then he wasn’t ready. If he doesn’t run...hmmm.

I suggest this because of H’s recent actions not his words. Give it some time to see how consistent he is.

You only can control you. Divorce is just a piece of paper. Keep it businesslike (mostly) and stand for you.

D

[Eagle3]

Both of your posts made me think again, so very good advice CWarrior and DnJ. Thanks!

Didn't know about a post-nuptial agreement, never heard of this. Will definitely take this into account if needed.

The last few weeks have been going really well for the children and me.
We all accept the situation and handle it well, each in our own way.
S16 is still having the hardest time but he talks about it which is good. In the meantime it has become very clear to me which difficulties he is having a hard time with and I am helping him with that. It was also good for him to go and talk to an IC, which has helped him opening up even more.

The BIG question: Then why do I still want to be there for him?
Simple, because he is the father of our children and because I have always respected him for who he was and what he stood for.
Is he still this person? No.
Did he choose this himself? No.
Do I want to be with the person he is right now? No.

So, I decided to be there for him, as a friend I wouldn't immediately say, but as the father of our children. This is the only qualification I can live with right now.

I was partly right. The feeling occurred to me he had doubts again.
Well, a few days ago I got a call from him.
When I picked up I had a very confused STBXH on the line.
He told me that he is really not well, that he wants to know what he has, that he wants to give up everything over there and come back and whether there is still room for him in our house.
He also asked if I had somebody new.
Furthermore he also said that him returning would be seen as a failure to everybody, because he would have to give up his work etc. (therefore I think he has difficulties in taking the step)

I've been honest to him all the way.
I have made it clear that there is a place for him in this house but in the guest room, and that the first condition is that he seeks help here as well.
I made it very clear that I want to help him because he is the father of our children, not in any other qualification.
I also told him that there is nobody new in my life. That this is not what I'm seeking, but that I have a good life again, together with my family and friends and that this is something I will not give up anymore.
I assured him that this would not be seen as a failure, but just as a success, as he finally wants to work on himself, because the fleeing and the unhappiness will last, that there is no way out but to face it.
He listened very carefully and agreed on everything.
He told me he would call me back the next day.
Surprise, surprise, of course I didn't hear anything.

I hope I have handled it well?

Yesterday he did call the children, I was friendly and said hello, nothing more. He was very calm as well.

I guess he just need to process again? Anyway, this will not affect the path I'm walking, although I'm anxious and afraid at the same time. I'm happy now, what if he returns and it is false again?
Don't want to go to the same rollercoaster as the past 2 years...

But, as said, we are not there yet. Curious what will happen in the coming weeks...

[Traveler]

Eagle3, I don't have enough experience with MLCs to say whether your answer was ideal strategically, but I love the strength and compassion in your response. You are clear you have a good life you're not willing to give up, that you're not willing to jump at a chance at R, but aren't taken or about to be taken and are willing to offer him the guest room and positive support. You've given him a likely path back without making it too easy or too hard. I also love that you had no expectations and took his flip-flopping in stride.

[DnJ]

Hello Eagle

I am glad the children are opening up more and more. This is difficult and it is very good they are comfortable speaking to you about their feelings.

Your conversation with H, as CW said, you have clear, well organized, and thought out plans. These will make good basis for boundaries going forward.

Did you handle it well? A difficult question. No one can see all ends. No one can accurately predict what will work or won’t work. Besides, the LBS cannot really affect path of the MLCer. We cannot speed it up and usually at worse just slow their progress. The LBS just needs to do what works for them, so no matter what happens they can live with what they’ve done.

That, of course, is a bit of an unknown while mired in the thick of things. And so we turn to ideas and strategies that work in most situations;. To be clear, strategies that work for you and H.

Being honest. Good.

Being kind and compassionate. Good.

However, I do not believe H was ready or looking to hear all that just yet. Remember, no pressure.

Well, a few days ago I got a call from him.
When I picked up I had a very confused STBXH on the line.
He told me that he is really not well, that he wants to know what he has, that he wants to give up everything over there and come back and whether there is still room for him in our house.
He also asked if I had somebody new.
Furthermore he also said that him returning would be seen as a failure to everybody, because he would have to give up his work etc. (therefore I think he has difficulties in taking the step)

Validate and acknowledge his feelings, not promote your own. I know how difficult that is, by the way.

What you stated in parentheses is probably true. That is an excellent follow up query after validation to illicit further information and promote him to dig within. A few suggestions:

I am sorry you feel like you wanting to return is a failure.

I am sorry you are not feeling well.

Speak to his feelings. Not to his actions. For example:

If you stated, I am sorry you feel coming home is a failure. This creates “coming home” to equate to failure, it reinforces his irrational feelings and fears. Acknowledge “wanting” to come home and the feelings that whelm up from that thought not the act.

A person in turmoil, in crisis, when they reach out, especially at first, they are looking to be heard. H is testing the waters, to see how you will react to his feelings. He is not looking for solutions, not yet. He is not looking for understanding or empathy. His path is still very much emotionally driven and about himself. Let him lead the way.

H doesn’t know what he is after or why he feels like he does. He is, as he said, confused. Validating and acknowledging his feelings gives him permission to let him process them. That will probably happen without you, as it should. Perhaps, that idea or view will help you with where he is currently is.

I agree with you answering his question of if there is anyone else. Some advice is to be more mysterious, to let them think/feel like perhaps there is another. It depends upon the situation. The big item is that you are not sitting around pinning for their return; and you got that across. Also, the being mysterious is more when not being directly asked. In your case, being evasive would cause more problems than would potentially solve. Honest = good. If you do not want tell him something, that is the correct response.

H: Are you seeing anyone?

E: I’d rather not discuss my love life right now.

That is probably a better strategic answer. However, not a better one for you. You stated your position and got certain things off your chest and out in the open. Next time, and I am certain there will be a next time, being evasive and stating as above will be a better answer (for you too).

As I said, you were clear and well thought out, which will make good clear boundaries easier to state and enforce.

I guess he just need to process again? Anyway, this will not affect the path I'm walking, although I'm anxious and afraid at the same time. I'm happy now, what if he returns and it is false again?
Don't want to go to the same rollercoaster as the past 2 years...

Yes, anxious and afraid, seems reasonable. You don’t want to repeat the rollercoaster again.

What if he returns again, and it is false? You cannot control his outcome. You can control your’s and your actions.

Why does H need to return directly into the guest room? Suggest, and if that is not picked up on since these MLCer’s have the mental sharpness of a gnat, tell H that he can return and he should use a rental for the first while to see how things go. You and he can visit him living under your roof at a later date.

You need not place boulders upon his path, yet his path need not be a direct line from there to guest bedroom. Might be best if it isn’t.

Nicely done Eagle.

D

[Elbereth]

Hi Eagle,

I agree with what the others have posted. I also think your response showed you hear him and validated his feelings while showing you are living your life and standing for you. I can only imagine how many emotions his wanting to come home must bring up in you. My advice is to try to not focus on the little details and try to step back and view things from a broader perspective. For example, over analyzing his comments or actions from one episode might have you feeling that they mean more than they do. Stepping back a bit and weighing actions that occur over a longer period of time might offer more clarity (or even lack of actions count towards knowledge). He might just be testing the waters or he might be just pulse checking you. What he does in the next few weeks will help to make things more clear...well, at least as clear as they can be with someone in crisis. MLC is crazy town after all. Hugs to you. (((Eagle3)))

[Eagle3]

, I do not believe H was ready or looking to hear all that just yet. Remember, no pressure.

H: Are you seeing anyone?

E: I’d rather not discuss my love life right now.

I think you are right here. He was just testing the waters if I had anyone else. Since that phone call he is acting happy again, sends me messages concerning the follow-up of the separation of our common properties in regards of the D etc.

I think the right answer is to use your quote next time.

I also love that you had no expectations and took his flip-flopping in stride.

I can only imagine how many emotions his wanting to come home must bring up in you.

During the call and before that I indeed didn't have any expectations and all was going really well.
The moment he called I couldn't help it but as Elbereth stated, the mixed emotions are creeping in and I have been thinking much more about him the last two weeks again. It is very difficult to step back and watch the bigger picture. The hope for him to come through returns quickly in such cases unfortunately.

I would like to ask you something about the possible OW2 relationship. I'm not sure if he has a relationship currently but as you know I saw some messages end of December which confirmed him communicating again with a new OW.
He apparently confirmed to his mother (only know this since last week) early january that he wanted a divorce because he met somebody new and that his relationship with OW1 was based on lies and deceit and that he therefore did not want the same start in a new relationship.

I do read a lot of stories about an OW1, but almost never about an OW2. Do you know stories that I can read whereby an OW2 is/was involved in MLC?
Since OW1 "was the love of his life", do they have the same feeling about OW2? I almost can't believe this is possible?

Anyway, in 2 weeks he is coming over again. I left the house last time. Will not do it this time and have confirmed this to him as well. He says he doesn't have any problems to stay with me in one house...he really acts like I'm his friend at the moment. I can handle it but assume this is kind of strange?