[Eagle3]

DnJ: many thanks for your advice. Below I have answered some of your advices.

Gerda: thank you so much for answering my thread. This means a lot to me. In regards to the chart you noted…at least 15 of the 18 points on the list I unfortunately can highlight as well.

The thing is…I also took an important decision myself. I stood by his side for 2 years and I always told myself I would stand if I saw improvement and if the lying would stop, which he did for about 10 months. But since I know OW2 is involved and the lying and spewing started all over again something knacked inside of me.

I too want a divorce now. I want to pick up live again, and be happy with my children. I don’t want him to drag us anymore into his miserable life.

As I read many times, it is not because you are divorced, you quite standing in a certain way. I do want to stand, and when he ever comes to his senses, I want to be there for him, depending off course how long the process takes and how I moved on. But at least I will be free from the blaming, spewing, controlling because once divorced he cannot control me anymore. Everything will be split.

Is this a bad thing, that I want to do the arrangements for the divorce, this way I have the feeling to have more control?

I have a lot of luck to live in a country where the rights of couples who want to divorce are very straightforward for people who don’t have a marital contract which we don’t. All the belongings we have is joint so everything has to be split in half, no question about that. This is the law. So he can’t take huge amounts of money from the joint accounts without my agreement. This counts of course from both sides. Since months he is not taking any money anymore since he has his salary which is paid in the other country. (which is also half mine once we divorce)

Also, since I arranged al the financials in the past all the household bills are in my name.

I have sent him an e-mail this morning, this for the last time. I have clearly mentioned I too want this and I want this to happen in a clean way, without fights, blaming etc. That he must do this for the children and for the past 17 years of good marriage (minus 2 which I didn’t mention…). I also mentioned that as of now for the day to day things he needs to contact our children himself, not through me anymore. He immediately made a WhatsApp group with him and our 3 boys which is a good thing and apparently understood the message…question is….for how long.

I will now dim as per your advice DnJ. As long as I don’t have a lot of contact with him I’m doing just fine. Luckily he lives far away which is in my opinion a good thing now.

I also would like to share something else with all of you.
MLC also happened to my H's uncle many years ago. He had OW1, then OW2 which he married.
He let his his ex. wife and his two children go through hell. Didn't want to pay anything for them (but had to following court law), He dropped his whole family, including parents, children, brothers, sisters etc.
Last Sunday, after 18 years, he stood in front of an empty appartment, his mothers', not knowing she just moved into a retirement home, so he called his brother to know where she was and he visited her. He also got in touch with his 2 daughters yesterday and stated he will divorce OW2. So after 18 years he finally woke up...

My H knows about this since his mother shared all of this in the family WhatsApp. I wonder if that would do something to him since he always mentioned in good days he would never act like his uncle did and in the bad days he threatened to act the same...

[DnJ]

Good Morning Eagle

Is this a bad thing, that I want to do the arrangements for the divorce, this way I have the feeling to have more control?

There is nothing wrong or bad about controlling what you can control.

One knows when they are ready for divorce. It is only a piece of paper, a split of assets, the business side of the equation. It’s good to take control of your side to ensure your financial security and mental/emotional health.

That paper, that agreement, does not control your heart. You can stand while divorced. And you’re right, one quits standing in a certain way, and stands more for their own values and self.

I also live in a place where the divorce laws are straightforward. That is the default, the law stated 50/50 split, the alimony based upon salaries, the custody of children. However, most rights and assets can be negotiated and waived if the parties agree. My XW for example demanded that I have sole custody of the children, keep the house, cars, and assets, and my full pension; she took a lump sum payment. I was actually against all of that, like Gerda said, trying to do right by my marriage vows and beliefs.

However, I did listen to those here, and my lawyer, and my good friends and family. I agreed to her separation agreement. I knew it was a really good deal, but I didn’t want it. Keep your emotions out of the business at hand. You can and will grieve later.

A tip on negotiating, listen to what H is proposing. Let H feel like it is his idea. MLCers are mixed up and confused. They will flip flop on arrangements all the time. If the arrangement comes from them, or they feel like it has come from them, it has a better chance of sticking than if it comes from you. Consider whatever H may propose; you’d be surprised at what some people are willing to throw away as they run off to their fantasy. And as odd as those proposals seem to you and us rational folks, agreeing to their demands grease the wheels. My separation was complete in 60 days after BD. Of course I had a high energy vanishing runner on my hands. I wonder when she will tire.

Your uncle’s story is interesting and sad. It seems he may have finally tired himself out and is winding down from running. It’s very sad, one cannot run from themselves. Wow, 18 years.

Stay strong girl.

D

[Eagle3]

A tip on negotiating, listen to what H is proposing. Let H feel like it is his idea. MLCers are mixed up and confused. They will flip flop on arrangements all the time. If the arrangement comes from them, or they feel like it has come from them, it has a better chance of sticking than if it comes from you. Consider whatever H may propose; you’d be surprised at what some people are willing to throw away as they run off to their fantasy. And as odd as those proposals seem to you and us rational folks, agreeing to their demands grease the wheels. My separation was complete in 60 days after BD. Of course I had a high energy vanishing runner on my hands. I wonder when she will tire.

Thank you for this advice. I haven't looked yet in that perspective and you are so right.

Whenever I'm friendly and detached his guilt comes to surface and then he says I can have all of it,
if I confront him with any of the mistakes he made he gets angry and threatens to take everything from me.
(which of course he can't)

[DnJ]

Good Morning Eagle

Stay friendly and detached. Monetary advantages aside; the rewards/blessings for doing so are invaluable.

His guilt is consuming him. Typically a better deal can be struck when their guilt is pressuring them.

Letting them do the heavy lifting can come in many forms. My then W told me what she wanted. I let her decide and craft her deal. She started with me having everything - kids, house, money, cars, etc... With a bit of back and forth between me and my L, and me and W, the first draft included a lump sum payment to her and the waiving of her rights to things. Her lawyer, of course, advised her against such a thing.

Then time set in, as her lawyer made her see two separate financial planners/counsellors. She got more and more frustrated, wanting that quick divorce. I stayed friendly - in truth I was heartbroken and completely un-detached. But, she had moved out and moved on the night of BD. The second draft was more money, an amount she again proposed (its pretty telling if you turn down your own proposal so let them do the heavy lifting). My L drafted it and sent it to her L. She mulled it over a few days and signed, against her L’s advice. He even made her sign a waiver that she was going against his advice. She also had OM with her during these meetings with her L. I’m pretty sure OM’s advice/counsel was not that valuable.

The only item that I snuck in (well snuck out really) - I removed W’s stipulation that I would formally charge her with adultery. She actually had that stated in her counter proposal. She wanted to plead guilt to adultery, in court, charged under the law. Strange. And she wasn’t pleased after she found out, and all was signed.

The heavy lifting, the separation, was her’s. I just didn’t stand in her way. It’s business. It was a good deal. So I signed the dotted line.

D

[Eagle3]

DnJ, this must have been such a hard time. I don't think I will find so much strength to not show my feelings to him.

Since the e-mail I didn't hear from him for a few days.

Until last Friday night. He called his family to tell them he wants a divorce.
That I still mean the world to him, "she is my God" and he still loves me but he can't find it in his heart anymore to give me what I want. (a proper marriage)
He wants me to move on with my life since he doesn't love me anymore the way he did.
He started drinking the moment he started calling everybody. As I mentioned he can only talk when he drinks since the start of his MLC. First he called his Mother (relationship has never been good with her), then his Stepfather, Father, Brother and last but not least my Parents.
He all told them the same story, although to my parents he mentioned he doesn't want a divorce, he wants to be my friend and continu to be married as friends but he sees this is hurting me too much (and this is not what I want) so that is why he asked for a divorce so I can move on with my live. He even mentioned (only to my parents) he can't have S with me anymore...

He also want this to happen in a proper way...his will not act difficult...(will see)

As from the moment it was his fathers turn he started to get drunk, with his brother he was crying and with my parents he told a different story. Seems the booze still controls his feelings heavily.

He then called me, completely wasted, don't even want to mention what he said since nothing of sense came out of him. He even fell asleep whilst on the phone.

I really want to go dark on him so I called him the next morning to tell him the following:

Yesterday evening you called me again in a drunken state. I understand that what you did (calling everybody) was very hard for you but you need to understand that since you've told me you want a divorce something changed inside of me and I now want proceed as well. I need to rebuild a full, happy life again with the children. Since I still love you I need time for my own now to process everything, I can not be your friend anymore. I can't be the shoulder to cry on. So if you call, I won't pick up the phone anymore. If there is an emergency let me know in a different way.
In regards to the divorce, once I have the home evaluation report, I will send it to you and you can make a proposition for the financial arrangements. He didn't say much, only yes and I understand in a very submissive way??
I have never had this with him.

Yesterday evening he called one of the kids, drunk again. Seems he will not call me anymore now, but them. He asked what they were doing. S13 was not happy about this.

On Sunday we always skype together normally. I told him I will not participate anymore, so for the first time it will be only him and the children, I will go for a walk I think. They are all nervous as they think he will be drunk again. I sincerely hope for them he is not, but not my responsibility anymore to control this. I will be there for them afterwards if something hasn't gone in the right way.

Have a nice Sunday.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Eagle

H has certainly let the cat out of the bag. His telling everyone that you are still a great woman, mean the world to him, and that he cannot find it in his heart to be the proper husband and live the proper marriage - is most likely pretty close to the actual truth.

H’s confusion is right there, out in the open. He is an emotional wreck. He has shown everyone. It is also a justification for his actions.

H’s inability to love you, as he feels and knows you deserve, stems from his long ago trauma(s). He feels himself unlovable and therefore cannot love anyone else and knows it should be different. Deep down inside himself he has no answers; just pain, torment, and misery. And so he runs from himself.

You, the kids, family, and friends, all get hurt. A MLCer needs to, and has to, run. They are driven to it. They must escape. And those in the way do get mowed down.

H’s path is not about you, or the boys. It is about him. Do not forget that. Even though at times it feels like it is about us, the LBS. His path was started long ago, and he needs to complete it.

To that end, H needs to hit rock bottom before he can realize the complete mess he is in. Before he will commit to actual change, commit to actual growth and helpful action. Until then it is running. Interestingly, rock bottom is where and when one decides it is.

It’s similar for the LBS, we descend for a while, spiralling, dizzy with pain and sorrow and hurt. Eventually we level out, find our bearings, choose headings/beliefs, and move forward with health and happiness.

I agree with your going dark with H.

You stated your intentions very clearly. And they meshed well with his current feelings of his inability to be a proper husband. In others words, you validated his feelings and emotionally state, and got your view cross as well. Good job.

I don't think I will find so much strength to not show my feelings to him.

You just did!

Your mind is always listening. When you use language like “I don’t think I’ll ever..., I don’t believe I can...”, your mind will make that the reality.

You just demonstrated your strength and compassion - do not sell yourself short. Especially to yourself. You can, and will, do great things. Believe that!

I can not be your friend anymore. I can't be the shoulder to cry on. So if you call, I won't pick up the phone anymore. If there is an emergency let me know in a different way.

Accuracy is very important. One requires to accurately see what they are doing, what they are feeling/believing/ thinking so they can make proper decisions, choices, and changes. If one is basing decisions upon inaccurate data, then the likelihood of positive wanted outcomes decreases significantly.

You are making a choice. You are choosing a strong emotionally healthy path. Be accurate in that.

I can will not be your friend anymore. I can't won’t be the shoulder to cry on.

This is a choice, which means you control it. Which means you will be able to achieve it.

“Can’t” places this out of your control. “Will/won’t” is conviction, is formidable choice.

The wording you used to H isn’t as important as the wording you use in your head.

Do decide how H should contact you in case of an emergency. A “different way” is rather vague. And in truth, a phone call is the method to be used in an emergency. You might consider walking that back a bit.

In regards to the divorce, once I have the home evaluation report, I will send it to you and you can make a proposition for the financial arrangements. He didn't say much, only yes and I understand in a very submissive way??

Good for you. Direct and letting him do the heavy lifting with crafting his proposal. Do be open to consider what he comes back with, and go from there.

As for submissive. Yep. H is a mess. Guilty, hurt, unable to love, lost, sad, and depressed.

H’s drinking is obvious in its tie to his feelings. He drinks to escape, and to feel something. He is dead inside, a hollow man, a shell. MLC is a terrible thing.

Treated lightly when negotiating with him.

I do empathize with your reasons for deciding to no longer participate in the Sunday family Skype call. Give your boys some guidance on what to do, when Dad is drunk or things do not go well.

S13 is understandably not happy about the state of things with Dad. He will need to express his feelings, which unfortunately are most likely going to come out aimed at you - the strong stable parent. Have faith, it doesn’t last forever, and the kids do grow out of it. Be their beacon.

And I will answer your direct question on my thread.

Have a great Sunday.

D

[97Hope]

Oh Eagle, I'm so sorry you are going through this. You have had some amazing advice so far and from here it sounds like you are choosing what is best for you and your kids.

My XH is currently in replay (I think). It's just bizarre to watch. One thing I had to do that wasn't great at the time, but I'm glad I did - was to talk to my older son (17) at the time, and let him know that he had agency. He could choose boundaries with his dad and myself in what he was comfortable with. His dad was drink driving. I let S17 know that it was up to him to get another ride, or drive,

You might consider al-anon if it's available in your area (or zoom etc). Your kids would benefit from knowing that they don't have to be available for their dad when he is drunk. That's so hard for them to navigate, that's why I suggest a support group for kids with alcoholic parents.

Sometimes the kids don't know what they are free to not put up with.

[Gerda]

Eagle, this is amazing amazing! You handled it so well and I am very excited for the peace you are going to start feeling. Give it time, you will see how detached going dark can help you to be. I am happy for you!

(I know it seems like a dark time to say I am happy for you. But in the crazy world of MLC, I am happy for you because you are starting to see clearly and be able to act on it.)

You are now doing this --

Those who hope... will renew their strength.
They will soar on wings like eagles;
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not be faint.

I don't know if that's why you picked the name Eagle or if you are a faith person, but that's what I thought of right away when I read this post.

[Eagle3]

DnJ, thanks for you insights on my recent actions toward my H.

97Hope, thank you for your message. For a long time I thought my husband had left the replay stage (he stopped lying to me, got rid of OW1, really depressed etc.) but apparently he'd got back in and now he's deep in it again.
I have always told myself that once this happened again this would be the time to free myself and our children from his crisis as the pain is too huge. That is what I'm doing now.

I have been talking to the children several times. I let them validate their feelings towards him and I always state that they have a choice in how far they are willing to put with his insanity and drinking behavior. They now sometimes tell him to drink less, when they are around. Luckily they are not confronted often, only when he is in the country or on the phone.

Gerda, thanks for your kind words and many thanks for the poetry. I have chosen the name Eagle since from I was a littIe girl I always said that if I had a choice I would become an Eagle in my next life. LOL

So H called children yesterday. He luckily wasn't drunk so I left the house, went to my FIL who lives nearby so they all could have some privacy.
Afterwards all 3 S's gave me the full story.

He said that this would be a very difficult conversation for him since he can't talk about his feelings with them, that this is a very hard thing to do. He explained his decision to go forward with the D to them (same explaination he gave to all the people in the last days).
He started crying and said it is very difficult for him now since it is official and he feels like he is letting us all down.

If you read the above, I can't stop thinking...even towards his children it's all about him, how he feels, how difficult it is for him etc. He only asked in the beginning, "what do you think about the situation...it really s*cks hey"

The children all replied that it is time now, that the situation has taken a very long time and that it is for the best. I have such a wise children!!

Because he couldn't stop crying they asked him to leave it for now and to call back next Sunday and talk further.

I only wonder why he now called everybody with the full explanation. He called all close relatives and even our best friends with whom he hasn't been in touch for a very long time. Is this a seeking for validation, that once he explained why he wants a divorce he can go ahead again with OW2 and everything around that? He cleaned/cleared his mind in a certain way and now he can live his live like he wants to?

[97Hope]

Your children are amazing!!!!! And wise.

Of course he called everyone with the full explanation for validation - and also image management.

He will play the "sad sausage" for any and everyone who will listen.

I found it incredible that you wrote "even towards his children it's all about him, how he feels, how difficult it is for him". This whole thing has been all about him. I'm so glad you see that.

Going forward, you can know that you were there for your kids and you are a rock for them.

Kids eventually gravitate toward the sane, healthy parent.

You are amazing!