Reconciliation Rollercoaster (part 5)

[Pommy99]

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2896359&page=1

Quick summary

12 months of limbo Mar 2019-Mar 2020. “Confused” WAH; on/off EA, ILYB
Separated Mar 2020, in COVID lockdown the whole time
May 31st 2020 WAH asked me to take him back
June-present (Sep 2020) - reconciling, honeymoon period for 8 weeks then back on the rollercoaster.

Currently having MC and IC. Seems to be two steps forward and 1.5 steps back. H is still struggling with missing feelings although doesn't want to stop trying. EAP reached out to him at the start of the week and dropped a massive bomb on him. I was angry that he didn't block her like I had suggested he may want to do. And more angry that he replied to her then lied to me about it. I feel like the trust counter is set back to zero. I don't feel that I want to talk about it again until we have MC next week. I want to put in place a boundary that could see me calling time on my M. It's not something I want to do, but I think there becomes a point where I have to.

On the positive side, we did our Sensate Focus 'homework' this week for the first time - it was really nice. H was grinning from ear to ear afterwards (and just to clarify, this is stage one so it is sensual and not sexual touch in any way). next day, H came away from his session with the MC in a more positive and focused frame of mind. He's definitely been more loving and putting more effort in to connect in small ways. I did say 2 days ago I needed a break from talking about the M or R and that I felt I had forgotten how to have fun. So I've kind of backed off and H is being more forthcoming. I know I am guilty of piling pressure on the relationship and that this makes H feel like he's failing. So I think I've released the pressure a bit for the both of us. Last night I got glammed up and went out with some girlfriends for a few drinks. H pounced on me when I got home - first time in 5 weeks !!

Pommy needs to take care of Pommy. You can't rely on your H right now, unfortunately, to lean on. He's half baked and he needs to finish up his own baking before he is whole enough to really help you deal with your own hurt and fears and insecurities (that he caused, yes I get it, it is totally unfair). Waking him up at 3 am might make you feel better in the moment but probably doesn't really help you to feel more secure or trusting or loved in the long term. It also probably doesn't help HIM to deal with his own stuff if he also feels insecure about losing you if he doesn't respond appropriately in the moment, which is a lot of pressure especially if you're totally confused like he is.

One of my trouble spots is lying awake in the night and stewing over things. I get more and more anxious and restless. I just thought rolling over and hugging H (didn't actually wake him to talk or anything) would help get rid of the negative thoughts. But you are right May, I need to be able to self-soothe, and learn to control my thoughts without relying on H as an antidote.

therapeutic disclosure was posted on my thread as an idea, and I read up about it and it might be a good suggestion for your H too. A lie about something that happened 18 months ago is still a lie. It is totally relevant. He's still controlling the narrative by picking and choosing what to be honest about, and that isn't fair to you. Also the extent to which there are still lies between you-- and he is still actively lying about things whether they are past or present-- that is inhibiting the ability of you two to reconnect. He's got to figure out how to be fully transparent and recognize that if he wants to R with you, the consequences of continued lying are worse than the consequences of telling you some things that you may be angry about.

I am angry about the lies because I am damm sure there are more. The fact this week I have been dealt new lies/new information has caused a massive setback. All that happens when he lies is that I have to fill in the blanks myself - and inevitably the 'worst case' scenario is pretty detrimental for the M. I'd like therapeutic disclosure as a way to wipe the slate clean, and it might go a long way to being able to begin to restore trust. I will think about this ahead of next week's MC and perhaps raise it with the MC. I'm jotting down things this week about my feelings and challenges.

[Pommy99]

Journalling

So last week was the mini-BD that EAP had reached out to H to let him know that she was critically ill, and H had replied and was caught red-handed in the midst of texting her, which he quickly deleted and lied about until I wouldn't drop it and he finally confessed. We actually had a nice few days after that (because I easily forget that he is a liar and quickly switch back into loving wife mode, even though I am wracked with anxiety that he is having regular secret contact with her). By day 6 however, I told him that I was no longer prepared to work on the M, go to MC whilst that door with her was still open. H was really reluctant to break all contact, saying he cared for her, wanted to know how she gets on with her treatment, and that he would let me know when he contacts her. I just shook my head. He later he told me that he knew what he needed to do, but that he just wasn't sure how to do it. That was 6 days ago.

Prior to MC I told H that I was confused about what I was feeling about him and the M in light of the lies. At MC we discussed the same, H seems very reluctant about breaking contact on the grounds that it dehumanizes him if he cuts her off knowing that she is ill. MC suggests that the reason he doesn't want to cut her off - and hasn't cut her off before now - is because he is still wondering, wondering if a relationship with her is better than a relationship with me, and whilst he keeps wondering, he will remain permanently stuck. MC suggested he write a letter, show it to me before he sends it, or get me to help him with it. H waffled a bit at which point I stepped in and said I can make this really easy for him. I will walk away from this M. I have been standing for this M for 18 months, and here we are 18 months in, dealing with the same lies, about the same woman. I can walk away knowing that I gave it my all, and I can hold my head high knowing that I acted with integrity at all times.

I honestly cant remember much else that was said, other than that the session ended on a very uncertain note, with MC acknowledging that I may not wish to attend any more sessions. There was a part where H said that he loved me, his life with me, that I offered calmness, security but he wasn't sure if my love for him was genuine, did I only start loving him again when I thought I had lost him, was it really love?

After the session H told me that he was worried because I had said I didn't know how I felt about him or the M anymore. I asked why that worried him and he said because it would mean we were over. He said he does know that he wants to try and to put the effort in, that he knows he has a lot to lose with me, he loves me. I'm the benchmark, but it's that missing piece - he just wants to feel like he is in love. He has a day out planned with a friend this weekend, 2 hrs away, which he has offered to cancel, because of where we are, and as a way to reassure me that he isn't up to anything untoward. I said that he didn't need to do that, that it's important for him to have time to connect with himself and do things for him.

I'm starting to question what love actually means, and whether what I feel is love. Do I really love him, or do I love the idea of him and the idea of us? He asked me if I ever imagined being in a R with someone else. Why is he asking me that? Does he need to feel that I would be OK if he left, or is he doubting that I really do love him? He said if I was questioning whether I love him or not, then it wasn't love - that I would know. I said no, you've made me start to question if what I feel is something other than what I thought it was, you've made me start to doubt myself. We talked about our past and how we've never had a really strong "in love" connection since we had children, did it even exist before that. We know what we both want to feel and are now questioning if we even had that when we got married?

We talked about EAP, and how they connected and had fun together (of course - he was living a single life, staying in hotels, eating out and drinking in the city, no kids to go home to, no homework, school run, tantrums, housework, no one to answer to about when/where/who with/how much $$.) He did actually go on to talk about her attention-seeking traits and that she was high maintenance, which was one of the things he didn't like about her. I agreed with him!

Right now, everything feels quite calm and low pressure. But it can change quickly. And there is still the elephant in the room about breaking contact with EAP. I don't want to push him too hard - it needs to be his decision. He has said multiple times that he will deal with it, but I know H, he will bury his head in the sand and hope that it goes away. How and when do I start to enforce my boundary? Do I start now (not going to MC, not working on the marriage). How much time do I give him to take action?

And I do easily slip back into loving wife mode, acting as if everything is normal, even when there's all this going on with OW and the lies, etc. It feels wrong to keep the animosity ongoing, yet when we switch back into being normal and affectionate I question whether I am just giving him a message that I am accepting his behavior and he can do anything with no threat of me ever leaving. He even said himself this week that my patience with him has been amazing and that he wouldn't have been able to be as patient with me. Am I just a weak, whiny doormat?

[Valeska19]

Am I just a weak, whiny doormat?

Is that how you see yourself? Would you feel stronger if you stopped the "loving wife mode"? Would you feel selfish?

How and when do I start to enforce my boundary? Do I start now (not going to MC, not working on the marriage). How much time do I give him to take action?

You enforce the boundary when you truly believe it is the safest thing for you. At this point - it feels like you might still be creating this boundary for him.

If you know your H buries his head in the sand - you certainly can't stop him. But are you enabling his behavior?

It sounds so very exhausting. I'm sorry Pommy. Have you thought anymore about how Pommy can take care of Pommy?

[Sage4]

Pommy, I have been thinking of you!

I too fall too quickly in the loving wife trap. It has taken me a long time to discover my boundaries and truly understand that boundaries can be another form of being nice. In fact, once those boundaries are in place, you have a lot more room to be a kind and loving person because you protected within the confines of those clear boundaries.

What are some boundaries you could put into place to protect your heart right now? Are you seeing an IC or could your MC help you come up with ways that you could build an emotionally safe space within your M to find the answer you need as to whether or not you can move forward?

I see you putting a lot of weight on H to help you make a decision as to whether or not you are able or willing to continue with the MR. It is clear that he simply cannot make this decision for you and will continue to waffle under the weight of it. In fact, it is not fair of him to make that decision for you. May is working on the same thing in her situation, only in the other direction (H wanting HER to make the decision). Maybe re-read some of the advice shared on her thread to see if you can find a direction that resonates with you?

In the meantime, hugs and compassion.

((((Pommy))))

[may22]

Hi Pommy!

I have some thoughts and will share more later but just for $hits and giggles, thought it would be fun to copy and paste things your H has said to you that my H has said to me, nearly word-for-word:

H was really reluctant to break all contact, saying he cared for her, wanted to know how she gets on with (xyz) and that he would let me know when he contacts her.

of course in my case it wasn't cancer treatment, it was life or whatever. And AP reached out once because her BIL died (when they'd broken it off before I even knew about her) and then in May dangled more "trauma" to H, which he bit on, and was that her sister's dog was killed. (H hates dogs. But I was being harsh when I was like, REALLY? Trauma??) So. not to be unsympathetic but I'm going to bet that if it wasn't cancer, it would be something else.

he knew what he needed to do, but that he just wasn't sure how to do it.

Yup. Every time. Word for word.

the reason he doesn't want to cut her off - and hasn't cut her off before now - is because he is still wondering, wondering if a relationship with her is better than a relationship with me, and whilst he keeps wondering, he will remain permanently stuck.

Since my H has no verbal filter, I got this one directly rather than through the MC.

he wasn't sure if my love for him was genuine, did I only start loving him again when I thought I had lost him, was it really love?

Same. Maybe I never really loved him. (FWIW I also wonder how much of my standing is love for my H vs feeling like someone was taking my toy away.)

We talked about EAP, and how they connected and had fun together (of course - he was living a single life, staying in hotels, eating out and drinking in the city, no kids to go home to, no homework, school run, tantrums, housework, no one to answer to about when/where/who with/how much $$.) He did actually go on to talk about her attention-seeking traits and that she was high maintenance, which was one of the things he didn't like about her.

Exactly. The other day, H was like, when was the last time we did fun stuff like this together? Dropped everything and just went out and had fun for us? (Um... when we didn't have kids.)

He has said multiple times that he will deal with it, but I know H, he will bury his head in the sand and hope that it goes away.

"I will deal with it"-- mmmhmmm. I got this a LOT.

He even said himself this week that my patience with him has been amazing and that he wouldn't have been able to be as patient with me.

This too. Although in my case I feel a little undercurrent of disrespect here, like "I wouldn't have stood for this BS."

Anyway. Hopefully this at least makes you feel like you aren't alone!! I'm right here with you, sister!

I have some thoughts about the loving wife mode, boundaries, cutting off all contact, etc. and will write more later. Did you talk to the MC about therapeutic disclosure or transparency? I still feel this is a potential issue from my perspective.

[lupacex]

Thanks you for sharing

[Pommy99]

Am I just a weak, whiny doormat?

Is that how you see yourself? Would you feel stronger if you stopped the "loving wife mode"? Would you feel selfish?

I'd feel like I was destroying the attempts at reconciliation, that going back into amicable, best friend mode would reinforce that we are nothing more than friends and that we cant connect. But equally, when will he see that not breaking contact with OW is destroying any potential for growth in our marriage. He just doesn't get it - he says "I don't want an affair with her" and "it's not like I'm going to meet up with her" when trying to justify not breaking contact. But he doesn't get the damage and hurt to me (even though he says he hates the lies and hurt that he has caused). He doesn't get that having both of us in his life is not an option.

You enforce the boundary when you truly believe it is the safest thing for you. At this point - it feels like you might still be creating this boundary for him.

If you know your H buries his head in the sand - you certainly can't stop him. But are you enabling his behavior?

How do you mean "creating this boundary for him"? What I feel right now is that he wont take any action because it's too difficult for him, and for whatever reasons, he doesn't feel like he wants to. I have two options - I apply pressure or I step back and remove myself from it. Last night he asked why I had gone quiet - I said I was reflecting on the MC session, to which he responded "I havent forgotten". I didnt say anything else as I dont want to apply pressure - I want him to initiate this and take ownership for it. And of course he hasn't forgotten - he's just not done anything about it. So it's now 7 days since he said "I know what I need to do". If the decision is that hard, doesn't that tell me something?

I see you putting a lot of weight on H to help you make a decision as to whether or not you are able or willing to continue with the MR. It is clear that he simply cannot make this decision for you and will continue to waffle under the weight of it. In fact, it is not fair of him to make that decision for you.

Sage, I think I understand what you are saying.....that I'm basing my decision on his decision? If so, what should I be doing? I felt that this was my boundary, that I will not stay in the M whilst the door to OW is left open. Am I dealing with this in the wrong way? From your perspective, what should I be doing/saying? I honestly feel blinkered right now - I can't see any other way than "I will not stay in this M with OW in the background" - but there is a dependency on him here, right?

MC told H the ball is in his court on this - that's when I felt, no, this isn't all about H and his decision, and H being in control - and that's when I stepped in and said I could make this really easy, that I wasn't prepared to continue with her presence, and I would walk away, not as a threat or an ultimatum, but that I had thought about where we are 18 months down the line, and it seemed that something was not going to change.

I have some thoughts and will share more later but just for $hits and giggles, thought it would be fun to copy and paste things your H has said to you that my H has said to me, nearly word-for-word:

Oh gawd, The Script!! The GD Script!!! Thank you for sharing - it actually made me really sad to read all of this. That's why I went quiet on H last night as I read it just before I got into bed. The "I'll deal with it" seems to really be a delaying tactic. Usually when H has to deal with something that is of importance to him (scratch on his car door, physio appointment, house repair) it gets dealt with verrrry quickly (and thoroughly researched). Right now, these are just words and no action. And like your H, he's talking about renovating the living room, he's asking me what I want for my big birthday in a few months time. He's replaced some home appliances and selling the old ones - I'm thinking, hey we might need two of those if we separate again, but he doesn't think like that. He seems quite happy to be home, with me, showering me with affection,...and brushing OW under the rug.

Re the wedding rings - H put his ring back on a couple of weeks ago but I'm still not wearing mine (although I am wearing other rings). H hasn't mentioned it and I really don't want to put them back on until I feel like I am in a place where I can see that we are truly moving forward. I don't think breaking contact with OW would be the catalyst - I guess there would need to be a point where I feel that the threat of S/D is off the table and we are piecing.

[may22]

hi Pommy,

Just quickly-- your sitch is not my sitch, or anyone else's sitch. Yes, these dopes are following the same GD script. That does not mean everything is the same, and I definitely didn't mean to depress you when I did that.

To the extent there are similarities between our Hs, I would just offer for where you are today, not knowing if/how to push the "cut off all contact with AP" issue-- this isn't something you can really control. He will or he won't. (Or, he won't but he'll tell you he did.) I don't think you want him to feel coerced into doing it-- in fact, this is what my H is saying now about the last two times, he felt he had to do it but it wasn't what he was choosing of his own free will. This could be the same with your H. You could push the issue and he'll probably cut her off, but you don't know that he'll hold to it. Or, you could accept the fact that he may or may not choose to cut her (and the possibility of her or what she represents) out of his life forever, and decide you're OK with that for the time being. Or, maybe you're not OK with it at all and he needs to go.

If you decide to keep the status quo for the time being, maybe there are other ways you can communicate to your H that your relationship-building phase is on hold until he boots the third party out of your marriage for good. I don't know what might make sense to you, but maybe no more R talks, no more MC, no more loving wife, no more talk of renovating until you feel secure she's gone for good. Maybe you can just say that to him straight up. H, I'm not ready to bail on our M right now. But you need to realize that we can't productively work on our M until you have conclusively ended all contact with OW and put some safety measures in place to ensure she doesn't contact you again. I understand you don't feel ready to do that right now. OK. But I'm not in a place where I can focus on our future together or work on building up our emotional intimacy with her still in the picture in any way. So, please understand that I can no longer (whatever) until we get past this. Thanks. And then.... drop it. Let it go. do your own thing until he's stopped procrastinating and done what he needs to do. Don't bug him about it. If he wants to know why you aren't participating in whatever things you put on hold until it has been done, simply say, I can't do that until I am certain that the third party is no longer in the picture. (or even better, I can't do that and let him fill in the blanks as to why.)

He needs to realize that he screwed this up with his bad behavior. if he hadn't embarked on an EA with this woman, he could probably still be her friend and be your H. He's sank that particular possibility with his own bad choices. That isn't on you. And he needs to actually try to sit in your space for a moment here and understand just how damaging and hurtful it is for him to have any contact with her at all. I mean, honestly.

Also, I know I keep harping on the transparency piece but that feels like a really big red flag to me. I am having a hard time believing it was just an EA (though that could just be my own sitch talking, but I believed it fully until he came clean on it) and the denying of the texting in real time feels really scary to me. I feel like to the extent there are still potential secrets-- even just you doubting that there aren't more revelations to come, since you've had to pry every truth out of him by confronting him with evidence, which obviously leaves you with doubt that there was more you just haven't uncovered yet-- that will be a block between the two of you to emotional intimacy. What does he say to that? How could he possibly justify lying to you when you are in reconciliation about texting with the EA when you caught him red-handed? How does he expect you to trust him in the future? He seems like he's denying the gravity of this situation and he needs to open his eyes, here.

Have you read MWD's affair recovery book? There is a chapter on what to do if your spouse won't end the affair. You might read it if you haven't. Marathon not a sprint and all the rest.

Re the wedding rings - H put his ring back on a couple of weeks ago but I'm still not wearing mine (although I am wearing other rings). H hasn't mentioned it and I really don't want to put them back on until I feel like I am in a place where I can see that we are truly moving forward. I don't think breaking contact with OW would be the catalyst - I guess there would need to be a point where I feel that the threat of S/D is off the table and we are piecing.

This is exactly how I feel. I don't want to put my rings back on until I feel we are piecing. But I'm happy to have him wear his as a symbol of his own commitment to the process.

(((POMMY)))

[LH19]

PM99,

I think you know understand where your at right now and deep down what you have to do but your fear is preventing you from doing it. This is clearly not working for you. Until you are willing to walk away from something that doesn't work for you then you will always be a prisoner in your relationships. We really love to complicate things on this board when it's so simple. What does his actions tell you?

Unlike 99% of the WW husbands on this board, I don't think you H is a horrible person. I don't think he's manipulating you. I just truly believe he thinks your marriage has run its course and is not emotionally intelligent enough to understand limerance and such.

I truly believe in your situation time and space are the only thing that can turn this around long term. If not I think you can expect many years of the same. You have all the power.

[Valeska19]

Pommy
What I mean by you wanting to set boundaries for him is that it seems you are trying to set boundaries as a way to control his behavior. That ideally you would like him to do x, y, z. So you want to say "H... if you do x... I will do Y", but the problem is when he does X - you DON'T do Y. That's why its a form of control and manipulation verses a boundary.

It does seem like your heart is crying to you to stop the pain. I think it is telling you that his continuing lies and excuses are hurting you. That you really don't want to share a relationship with H as long as their is an OW. But you keep looking to him to stop the pain verses you stopping it. Pommy how do you stop the pain?

I know that it may seem like all or nothing... but that's a big step and maybe one that you aren't ready for at this time. But what about little small boundaries that you can set? Maybe not engaging in "wife like behaviors". or maybe no future talks? Maybe stop talking about AP? Maybe stop reassuring him? Maybe detach?

Btw - you don't have to tell H any of these things... you just do them. Boundaries are actions not words - IMO.

I totally agree with LH about space because when you are in the thick of everything... when do you have time to just feel? to just process? To allow space for that anger and betrayal that you feel in your heart? How can give proper respect to those feelings when H is always consuming your time and energy?

((Pommy))