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Originally Posted by tom_h
Originally Posted by Steve85
If your W were to do a 180 and want to come back, what would your answer be?

Well now, that goes to the heart of my therapy, doesn't it?

For the first 90 days, I would have run into her arms sobbing myself. No question. I was even writing love poems and love ballads to her for the first 60 days -- I didn't send any of them, but I sure composed them. I was even having dreams in which she told me it was all a mistake.

About the 90 day mark, already in therapy, I realized that taking her back was not automatic. I viewed her walking out without notice, and some of the scurrilous accusations by her attorney, as acts of betrayal. Acts of treason. She also emptied out the bank account and took the best car that morning, and tried to starve me out of the house! [She learned a lot from her liberal friends about how to maximize her side during a hostile divorce. That's another story.] I've learned a lot in my few weeks here on DB, and might find it easier to forgive her, but I still fell betrayed. After 30 years!

Now, one year from BD / D-Day, I am very sobered by what has happened. Sandi's rules tell the LBH to judge actions not words, and my ex's actions in the 18 months she planned the divorce, and first six months after serving me, have been unworthy of the lovely Christian woman I married so many years ago.

First off, I would be suspicious that maybe "getting back together" was a ruse, that she wanted me to talk my heart out and let my guard down, all the while taping my words, so as to gain leverage in the divorce settlement. Very important given the crap she has already done.

Second, there would be so many "whys?" she would have to answer for me. She was completely wrong about me in so many ways (e.g., her attorney accused me of having anger problems and that she was in fear of her safety) so I would need to know the truth about that.

I would make a condition as follows -- we must go into couples therapy. I would need to be satisfied with the answers to my ever so many whys. Then, just then, we might be able to work on getting back together.


So you would be open to her coming back, even if not immediately. You are not ready to date. When you can answer "I wouldn't take her back if she were the last woman on earth" then I say go date like a madman.

You came to this forum lamenting the fact that she wouldn't even talk to you. To me you still have an attachment to her emotionally that you need to work on. Absence and loneliness are not the same thing as being ready to move on.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
So you would be open to her coming back, even if not immediately. You are not ready to date. When you can answer "I wouldn't take her back if she were the last woman on earth" then I say go date like a madman.

You came to this forum lamenting the fact that she wouldn't even talk to you. To me you still have an attachment to her emotionally that you need to work on. Absence and loneliness are not the same thing as being ready to move on.

There you go, Steve, asking the tough questions. Thanks.

Whichever way things go, I have a great need for closure. I need to know the why. I need to know what I did wrong from her perspective. I would have those two needs whether I had written her off forever or whether I still harbored a tiny hope of getting back together.

As Michele said in her Divorce Remedy book, a divorce does not mean the end of the relationship! We have three children and will someday share the spouses of our children and 6 or more grandchildren! So I expect to be seeing her on a regular basis at some point.

But that won't happen until she decides to relent from her anger. She walked out with all the money and the best car, she taunted me (through her attorney) to file a motion with the judge to get my share, and at 4 weeks her attorney wrote a letter filled with so many lies, and so much hurt, that it almost put me in the hospital. We have virtually never spoken. I saw her twice in the first three weeks, then didn't see her until month 5 when she came over (with witnesses in case I was "hostile"!) to get some clothing. Emails are tense and terse. In the first 60 days I begged her (yes, that was before DB) to at least talk with me, and maybe we could divorce amicably without lawyers, using mediators. Not a peep in reply, except more B.S. from her attorney.

So there is a lot of ground to plough. I am Christian man, I am commanded to forgive, and I have. I was clear about that before the end of the second month to her, in writing. Yet, forgiveness does NOT mean I take her back! It just means I never hate, and let go of any anger and hurt. In my case, I just felt searing pain. I loved her too much to be angry. But is that love dead? But would I take her back? She is not the person I once knew, and the chances, at this time, would be very very small.

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Originally Posted by tom_h


Whichever way things go, I have a great need for closure. I need to know the why. I need to know what I did wrong from her perspective. I would have those two needs whether I had written her off forever or whether I still harbored a tiny hope of getting back together.



This will not be revealed just now and not easily. You have to let go of the need to know why. In all likelyhood you did plenty of thing wrong, probably some very wrong. You have to dig inside and own up to your mistakes. Then forgive yourself and start working on yourself to make a better you.

Originally Posted by tom_h

So there is a lot of ground to plough. I am Christian man, I am commanded to forgive, and I have. I was clear about that before the end of the second month to her, in writing. Yet, forgiveness does NOT mean I take her back! It just means I never hate, and let go of any anger and hurt. In my case, I just felt searing pain. I loved her too much to be angry. But is that love dead? But would I take her back? She is not the person I once knew, and the chances, at this time, would be very very small.


See, this is what I have a problem with. You call yourself a Christian man, yet you cannot wait to date other women. What part of :"In sickness and in health, for better or for worse..." did you not understand?!? This is the worse part, in case you are wondering. "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder". You are married and it is time to start behaving as one.

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Originally Posted by Vapo
This will not be revealed just now and not easily. You have to let go of the need to know why. In all likelihood you did plenty of thing wrong, probably some very wrong. You have to dig inside and own up to your mistakes. Then forgive yourself and start working on yourself to make a better you.


This is a chicken and egg problem. I've asked elsewhere here on DB what the men did when they did their 180s, and how they came to those realizations, and I'm not getting any answers back. I don't want to change how I think I should change; I want to change those things that others see about me. Much different.

One of my new best friends after my WAW left was a man married four times. Four times! He is now a 70-something retired doctor, and he was married three times through age 40. It's not surprising, how many gals want to have a doctor for a husband?

He was able to rationalize away why the first, and then the second, marriages didn't work, didn't last more than 5-10 years. But when the third started falling apart, he was in serious crisis. He knew it was he himself, what was wrong with him? So after his third divorce was final, he and his 3rd ex went into couples counseling together. Finally, he got an unvarnished view of himself, not in a mirror but through the lens of someone who was perhaps incompatible but nevertheless could tell him how we was, not how he perceived he was.

It changed everything. He got married for a fourth time a few years later, to a much different woman than previously; he also now knew what he was doing wrong. He's been married 30 years and he is very happy.

So this was an inspiring story for me. Will my ex ever agree to that? I don't know. But I am logical man and hearing her perspective -- finally -- is something of great interest to me, even if it's colored by her anger.

Originally Posted by Vapo
Originally Posted by tom_h
So there is a lot of ground to plough. I am Christian man, I am commanded to forgive, and I have. I was clear about that before the end of the second month to her, in writing. Yet, forgiveness does NOT mean I take her back! It just means I never hate, and let go of any anger and hurt. In my case, I just felt searing pain. I loved her too much to be angry. But is that love dead? But would I take her back? She is not the person I once knew, and the chances, at this time, would be very very small.
See, this is what I have a problem with. You call yourself a Christian man, yet you cannot wait to date other women. What part of :"In sickness and in health, for better or for worse..." did you not understand?!? This is the worse part, in case you are wondering. "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder". You are married and it is time to start behaving as one.

Vapo, you seem hung up on this. I'm not married anymore (technically I am but the divorce is almost final). That marriage vow is a human, earthly vow, but man is fallen and oftentimes, 50% in the USA, man does put marriage asunder anyway. Merely because the vow exists, it does not mean that married Christians are immune to crisis, sin, and failure. The Bible frowns on divorce but does not forbid it.

As for "acting like a married man," how can I? She left. She won't talk. She's checked out. She's fighting tooth and nail using lawyers. If I walked around claiming to still be her husband, not only would people look at me askance but I wouldn't be following the principles here on DB to, basically, move on.

Think about it for a minute. My choices at this stage are to choose to be single for a long time or forever, or to explore, slowly and carefully, friendships and other relationships with women. I will probably pursue the latter. I do believe I was made for connection with a woman. That doesn't mean I'm on a quest to bed as many gals as I can before I turn 60; I wasn't even like that in my 20s! I didn't give my heart away easily when I met my wife 30 years ago, and I won't do it this time either.

Dating that other woman was too soon, I now realize, and I learned something important about myself, now that I'm single and much older. No one could possibly say that, after a painful divorce, a man shouldn't spend some time getting about so as to not make a second mistake choosing a mate.

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Originally Posted by tom_h
The Bible frowns on divorce but does not forbid it.


Yes this is correct.

What it does forbid is divorcing and remarrying.....except in cases of fornication. (Read Matthew 19.) So the only way according to the Bible you can remarry is if she has cheated on you (and leaving isn't cheating), or when she passes away. According to the Bible fornication (sexual sin) and death are the only things that can end a marriage. Regardless of what man's laws say.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I started DBing right away. Lots of 180's.
Originally Posted by tom_h

R2C, can you help me here? What do you think are the best and most insightful 180s are that you did? Which were the hardest? Which ones were you doing right away? Because somehow it seems the very definition of 180 means that it takes time, and whatever change you're doing can't be done in a weekend.


Well, I am reflecting back 10 years. All my changes did not attract my X back.

The best and most insightful 180 - Reading self help books. Challenging everything I believed.

The hardest 180 - Probably being more assertive. Still a work in progress.

Initial 180s cleaned up my appearance and items on her "complaint list".

Some 180's are easy and others might take more effort to master. 180's are all unique for each of us. Approaching a stranger and starting a conversation is natural to some and terrifying for others.


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Originally Posted by tom_h
I don't want to change how I think I should change; I want to change those things that others see about me. Much different.
Correct.

How do they see you now? How do you want them to see you?


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Tom.
You just can't have it both ways.

If you want the Single Life and freedom to date - Okay. Divorce your W. No more waiting. No more holding it up. No more teetering. Take the initiative and push it through.

If you want to not divorce your wife - Okay. Then stand and stand for you and you alone regardless of what she does.

I personally did not have another relationship until my D was final with my XW (the process took 22 months). When it was over... I knew I upheld my commitment to the marriage until the end. It had NOTHING to do with her and everything to do with the person I wanted to be. It was my commitment to her. When we signed the papers - she thanked me for staying "loving towards her" even in the midst of the D. Sometimes the high road is more painful... that's why it's less traveled.

Look I get it... it's been a long time. She's not showing any signs. You are sad, tired, lonely. I am not trying to invalidate those feelings. But please be honest with yourself about them. The decision is ultimately yours to make... and all I'm seeing is that you keep pushing it off as "my w is making me do it"


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Originally Posted by tom_h
[quote=Vapo]I've asked elsewhere here on DB what the men did when they did their 180s, and how they came to those realizations, and I'm not getting any answers back.


I think you asked me this, and I never got back to you.

My 180s:

1) Physical Attraction. Diet and exercise. I lost 30 pounds. I've gained 15 back, but I steadied there. I was almost too skinny at one point. Dress up more. I don't wear t-shirts (summer time) and hoodies (winter time) 90% of the time anymore. I quit chewing (more than two years now). I get more sleep.
2) Emotional Attraction. I read NMMNG. While I don't think a lot of it relates to me, some of it didn't resonate. I'm trying to be more alpha (without being a dink). My needs are not last on my list anymore. I'm not afraid to rock the boat. I'm back to my former fun self (more social). I treat my GF well, but I don't treat her like her sh|t doesn't stink.
3) Faith. I attend church more regularly. I do more bible study.
4) GAL. I volunteer more (until COVID hit). I reconnected with family and friends. I've gotten back into camping, fishing and hunting. I travel more (until COVID hit).
5) Improvements. I've worked on my procrastination. If something needs to get done, I do it. I've become handier around the house. I cook more.

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Hi Tom,

How is it going on the legal side? Is anything being contested or is it a waiting game for the court process?

How about the kids? How are they dealing with this?


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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