[Ginger1]

What does her “showing appreciation for YOU holding you guys together?” Look like?uou want her to thank you for not walking away? You want her to thank YOU for doing all the work?

Do you think she believes you are piecing single handedly?

So you need her to thank you for doing all the work in order to move forward?

[SteveLW]

I'm so tired. I don't know whether or not its "progress". I started keeping track of positives in our relationship but I failed to keep track of why they are happening. In July, after I last wrote some interesting things happened. She told me she loved me for the first time since January. She sent me a text to share some fun she was having. She bought me craft beers a couple of times to show she was thinking of me. She talked about buying a boat (high end ski boat) together, and a lake house. We went on vacation and she was consistently finding me to come be near me.

One night I asked her if she wanted a good night kiss because she had kind of leaned over towards me and she said yes. That was the first time this year. Every night since then we've given each other a kiss night. One night as we were going to sleep she said "I love you." And a week ago I asked her if she wanted to cuddle as we went to sleep and she said yes. It was the first time since last September that we had done that.

We haven't talked more about our relationship since July 2nd when she last implied she wanted a divorce still. It looks like I've made a lot of progress.

This past week she was on my case pretty good about a couple of things and it really grinded me down. I'm just struggling to stay in the fight. I'm struggling to see the point. I feel like I'm only in it for the kids - shes beaten me down to a point where I am not feeling that loving feeling anymore.

I feel like I'm stuck in a place and I can't do anything about it. I don't feel like I can make it better, at least in a time frame that I can deal with. I mean, how many more years of this do i have to live and the outcome could still be divorce. And if we save the marriage, what kind of a marriage will it be? I would accept her back lovingly if she ever said she was sorry or expressed appreciation for me holding us together, but she is so full of pride, I can't imagine her saying that.

I feel like I do more than my fair share around the house considering I also work full time. She is at home with the kids and considers that alone her job, and then we split all the household duties. That just doesn't feel very fair to me. They are old enough they basically take care of themselves.

Of all the people that know my situation 3 are still trying to encourage me and one of the three I pay to tell me to stick it out.

Why did I type this? I needed to vent. I'm so exhausted. I just can't express that enough. I am so worn out.

"A journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step."

I quote that because rarely in Ring and piecing is there ONE HUGE event that gets you there. It is lots and lots of small things. A touch on the knee here, and small peck on the cheek there, a snuggle session before going to sleep there. What you describe above is exactly how my Ring and piecing started. She started doing small things that had completely disappeared up to that point.

I see you struggling with "how will I know when she is really back". A lot of us that moved to Ring and piecing struggled with that. The answer is not an easy one to hear....and it is even harder to be patient enough to get through: You will know when her actions are consistent over a long period of time.

Here is the thing, WAS' words trail their actions.....by a long time. What I mean by that? As you start to becoming a functioning married couple again (and it looks a lot like what you are noticing above) asking a WAS going through this process, "Do you still want a D?" they will almost always say they do. It is hard for the logical mind to catch up to the emotional one. She may be feeling closer to you, like she wants to stay, that she sees a future with you......but as soon as you appeal to the logical side of her by asking where she is, more than likely she will verbally fall back to her LOGICAL stance that she still wants a D.

In fact, in my situation, my W never said the words "I no longer what a D". It was her actions being consistent, over weeks and months that showed me she was back. It was me also prodding it along. I think when someone gets to the point you are at ScottB that you need to start trying small things here and there, to see how she reacts. One of my favorite was talk charges. (Google that.) The others were touch charges.

One of the big changes I made in my sitch was helping around the house (my situation is much the same as yours in relation to me working, her being a SAHM, and our D being largely self-sufficient)........BECAUSE I LOVE HER. Do you love her enough to not be selfish and look at housework as HER job? I know in my sitch my W and I are different in what we prefer. I like a clean, neat house. She doesn't care. If I don't do the dishes she will have a dishwasher full of clean dishes, and a sink full of dirty ones. And as long as there is room to squeeze one more dirty fork or dish into that sink, she will. I hate dirty dishes in the sink. So I do the dishes 90% of the time because A) that is my preference and B) I love her enough to do that for her.

ScottB, I see you wanting to get back to a comfortable place....the place you were in pre-BD. You need to know that BD changed everything. There is no longer a going back to pre-BD. You either forge ahead with a new relationship with her.....or you are destined to get a D. There is no third option of going back to the way things were. A lot of LBHs especially struggle with that. Do you have the will and desire to forge that new relationship? If not, then you will continue to struggle even though there are signs that she is coming around.

[mtb1981]

Be careful when it comes to making big purchases. My ex would do things like your W. She would soften up a bit, tell me she loved me, give me a little kiss, etc. I'm not a genius by any means, but I was able to connect the dots and realize that the behavior from her that I craved so much usually came with requests for big purchases. A new car in my case. We never bought the car, and she went back to not giving a [censored]. I'm almost 100% positive the same thing wouold have happenned if we did buy the car. Buying a boat and lake house with your stay at home wife that wants to divorce you is not a good idea. You can't buy her love, so don't fear that not buying her these things will set you back. She wouldn't be the first WW that hustled her husband into buying a bunch of parting gifts for her...

[ScottB]

Life is pretty good right now other than I’m in limbo and I don’t like my wife right now. Kids are good, work is good, health is good. Every day i wonder if i should quit. It’s hard to see a future that I want. I’ve grow resentful of her behavior. She’s very hypocritical; gets made at me for things and then does them herself. Blows up at me over things that are off base. I won’t describe it all here but I’m frustrated. I feel trapped.

We say I love you when we go to bed and give each other a kiss good night, but that’s the limit of affection. I guess some would say that’s better but I just feel stuck and unhappy in this relationship. It doesn’t feel like there is anything I can do to improve it.

Now I do know ways I could make it worse; so maybe I need to be more creative, I don’t know. Good luck to all you people fighting this battle.

The fight rages on.

[ScottB]

Ginger 1 referred to R-ing and Piecing, Is there where I am at? Have I somehow moved to a next stage or step without realizing it?

[SteveLW]

Ginger 1 referred to R-ing and Piecing, Is there where I am at? Have I somehow moved to a next stage or step without realizing it?

Huh?

[sandi2]

Do you think you could be reconciling/piecing and YOU not realize it? I read Steve's response, and if I'm understanding what he's saying, I agree, at least to a point.......especially when a couple is living together and still shares the same bed. I can understand it in that type situation. In my sitch, we didn't start cuddling and slowly build up to discover ourselves in piecing. There was a decision made, first! I would either continue contacting OM and leave my H, or end all contact with OM and commit to working on the M. I couldn't have it both ways. There wasn't going to be any cuddles or kisses until that critical decision was made, and made quickly. (Not that I wanted his kisses, but you get what I'm saying.) He wasn't going to court me while I tried to decide between the two men. So, that was done. We didn't jump back into bed the next night, after I had decided to do the right thing, but we eventually got there. Here's the thing, although we still lived together, my H & I had not been sleeping together for several years, so you might say it was an event when we starting sharing the same room. I think not sharing the same bed for a long time, and having old wounds from a SSM, makes it more difficult when you've been married a long time. It was awkward, and uncomfortable, b/c that level of intimacy can bring all those old raw emotions right into the bed with you. It's part of the "work" we had to do. It's not that way for every couple, but it was for us.

For the most part, I tend to think you would be aware if reconciliation was taking place. It's up to the couple as to the words that said, conditions made, etc. I think a lot of it depends upon what has taken place that led them to the brink of D (i.e. affair, abuse, prison, addiction, etc.). There are couples, however, who continue to live in limbo for most of their M lives, b/c nothing is ever resolved. Sometimes, things get a little better, and sometimes it gets a little worse..........but it's still limbo, b/c one of them refuses to work on the MR, and at the same time, they won't leave. Even MWD says there has to be cooperation from the other spouse! IMHO, reconciliation comes first, and then you work to piece your MR back together. If that sounds confusing, you are welcome to read this thread about it. It's under my name, but a LBW by the name of Blu helped, and we wrote from the viewpoint of the WW and the LBW. Definition and Guidelines for Piecing
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832573#Post2832573


You aren't accidentally falling into piecing your M. If anything, YOU are on the verge of becoming a WAH. Maybe this is what it took for you to drop the rope you have wrapped around her so tightly. It would have been so much better if you had simply detached from the drama, stopped having R discussions, etc. I don't think a spouse can detach when he is keeping a running record of how many days it's been seen they had sex, the last kiss, last argument, last R talk, the BD, or whatever. This method, IMHO, keeps it fresh in your mind, and therefore, it keeps the pain and resentment very fresh. So, now you are so mentally & emotionally exhausted until it's breaking you down.......to the point you will be ready to get out of the M, just to get some type of stress relief. I don't know how successful that works in getting relief, but you can ask some of these other guys who have been there.

Reflecting back to when your W had an EA, how was that resolved between the two of you? I mean, was she remorseful? Did she genuinely apologize for the pain she caused you (and whatever else was involved......lies, deceit, betrayal, etc.)? Did she take responsibility for the A? Was it after the EA that she no longer wanted to work on the MR, or did it actually start before the EA? Perhaps you didn't have a problem forgiving her, since it wasn't an PA, IDK. However, I suggest there was never true healing for the MR after the EA, and that's why the MR continued to deteriorate. I suspect your W was "numb" quite sometime before the EA happened. I also suspect that her sexual desire was not fully restored. I can relate to so much of your story.

I don't know how many children your W wanted to have in addition to the two, before she had to have a hysterectomy. I don't know how young she was when she had the operation. It does affect some women to know they can no longer birth a child. There are some physical side effects, with the loss of estrogen, unbalanced hormones, etc. These issues can lead to low sex drive (or no sex desire at all). The good news is modern medicine can usually make a big difference. I had a SSM for years. I had an Internet A, which had temporarily jump-started my sex drive, but when the A ended......so did my sex drive. I won't get into all of it, but just to say that I felt dead on the inside a long time before the A, and it was the excitement and ego food in the A that jump-started my sex drive. However, it was very short lived. It was sometime later that I was referred to a hormone balancing specialist. The doctor said my sex hormones had "flat-lined", along with other health issues I was having at the time. He said he didn't know how I was able to roll out of bed everyday. So, it was bad. And then, it got real good! By that, I mean I took HRT, and knew what it was like to have a healthy sex drive. There is help out there!

So, back to your sitch. You have been under a strain for quite a while, and it's taking a toll. Maybe you can't help the way you are, but it seems to me that you've caused part of that strain on yourself. I don't know a lot of the backstory, but if you're like most newcomer LBH's, you go nuts at the thought of no action. You want a list of the next steps, nonstop. Wish we could oblige, but it doesn't work that way. I will tell you this much, it's all about your attitude. You can look at this shutdown as a blessing, or a curse. You can throw away that journal, or whatever it is, where you keep track of every little move by your W, and where you grade it as positive or negative. It's not a positive force in your life, and you're losing you mind! How can you stop focusing on her when you are constantly grading her every action? You don't understand detaching b/c the thought scares you to death. You are co-dependent on a woman who doesn't want you, and it make you unattractive in her view. So, you are your worst enemy!

You want to know the next step? Get your eyes off the one who doesn't want you, stop pursuing & pressuring her, and get your male confidence. You are responsible for your own happiness. You've read somewhere close to two dozen books, have a coach, and IC and I don't how many MC's.......and you are just as miserable today as you were in the beginning of the sitch. Sometimes, you can have too many sources of advice. Know what I mean? The Pastor, friends, counselors, books............and you just get more confused. So, why don't you give a few of these sources a rest, at least where the MR is concerned? Focus on what makes you feel good about yourself. I'm not saying to be completely selfish, but you don't have to have a spouse in order to become a better version of yourself. If you want to read self help books to work on yourself as a man.......that's fine. (I just wonder if you are the type of reader who will skip parts of the book, b/c you think it doesn't apply.) Anyway, let your W figure out what she wants, rather than you trying to convince her. I'm not telling you to be a jerk toward her, just stop trying to manipulate her decisions.

I maintain that when a woman threatens divorce, but does nothing about it, it's b/c she benefits from being legally married to her H. Your W is a SAHM. That's a pretty big benefit in itself. When she gets a FT job to support herself, then she might actually move forward with a D.........unless, of course, she expects you to financially support her to stay home, although the kids are in school. Guess that's another subject for another time.

((hugs))

[ScottB]

This was an incredible response. The time and care put into the words and the thought. I’m at a loss. I’ll need to take some time to sit with it and reply in the next couple of days. Thank you.

[ScottB]

Sandi2,
The four days after your post my wife had a couple of drinks and after expressing frustration about issues with her parents, she turned on me and out of the blue told me again that she was done with our marriage, she wanted a divorce, and I wasn’t going to stop her.

Last night she calmly brought it up again and after watching a video online by Sharon Pope she told me that she wanted to work with me to Lovingly Release (Sharon’s words) our marriage.

Looking back, I don’t think the EA was ever resolved. She never took true ownership of what happened and she never accepted responsibility for it. There was also a critical event that was glossed over that I never got the details of that left a lingering question mark in my mind. We tried to discuss it repeatedly in counseling, but we never got through it, we moved on. We found a different marriage counselor and never went back into it.

I agree my wife was numb before and after the EA. There is no doubt about that.
She wanted to have two more kids when she had the hysterectomy. She was 31 at the time. It was a partial, not a full. She had an executive physical and her hormone levels did not come up, though it was always a concern she could start menopause early.

I have struggled with rational detachment. When I think I’m there something happens (like two weeks ago or last night) and I can feel the cortisol rush through my veins and I struggle to sleep and eat.

I like your advice of focusing on what feels good to me. I try to do that. With young kids it is tough because if I leave the house then she has to be responsible for them and that creates friction. Many of our arguments seem to stem from times I’ve gone out with friends and somehow I didn’t communicate it well to her – this makes me less likely to do it again because of the threats and tongue lashing I get at home.

She does get a lot of benefits from the marriage. She gets regular massages, she plays tennis two or three days a week, works out every day. I cook half the meals and we split up the house cleaning so that I do half of that as well. I know that the situation is not fair but any push back I give ends up threatening the marriage.

And Sandi2, I’m not a wimpy guy but I feel as though my values get held against me because I don’t push back. My number one value in my life is family. Family, begins with marriage in my mind. Up there with my number one is my Christian faith, where marriage is sacred. I also believe that my kids are better off in a household with us together, and that their kids will be better off (this presumes we get this on the right track).

So if there is good news, my wife is interesting in a course with Sharon Pope called the decision where you go through a program to decide definitively if you are going to work on your marriage on lovingly release. The program is about learning tools to work on your marriage, applying them to see if they work, and if not then you have your answer. If they do, then things improve.

And you are right. My grip on my end of the rope has changed. I am still holding it, but before these recent conversations I was already struggling. The positive at this time is that we are moving in a direction (or at least we seem to be).

I can’t see a way that our marriage gets saved unless she decides she wants to commit to it and work on it. She was last in that position as of March of 2019, but she doesn’t like to do the work so when I would bring things up she would push them off until a bomb drop last September of 2019.

Since then we have been where we are.
Again, at least we seem to be moving in a direction. I can deal with trying to build Marriage 2.0 and I can deal with her leaving.

But limbo has taken a toll.

[ScottB]

Last night she brought divorce up again. She is planning to enroll in a program called "Divorcing Differently" about compassionately letting your marriage go. She talked to a coach who said that was the best program for her as my wife said she is 100% certain with absolutely no doubts that she wants a divorce.

In the conversation I told her that I still had hope, that I would still love her, and that I would work with her on the divorce. I told her that marriage takes two and divorce takes one and if she had made her decision, we could move forward with it.

She was furious that I had not given up. She continues to say how she has given me 5 years and how I'm not going to stop her this time. I tried to tell her that I'm not stopping her at all and that I am simply willing to work on our marriage if she wants to.

Prior to that conversation I left work early to go home and mow the lawn and then I took my son for a bike ride. I felt like I needed some outdoor time to recharge my batteries - so when she brought it up I was prepared.

I read the chapter in Michelle's book yesterday on the mid life crisis (my wife is 41). I found that to be helpful.

I know my wife is afraid of staying in the marriage because she thinks it is setting a bad example for the kids (she thinks its a loveless marriage that can't be fixed), she doesn't like the fact it has become sexless and I'm thinking she believes it will always be that way, and she doesn't feel supported.

If she leaves she is worried she won't have enough money, she is worried she'll have regrets, she is worried she is making the wrong decision, and she is afraid that the divorce could ruin the kids and she's worried about not being with them everyday.

It would seem that she is working on overcoming those fears with her coach so that she can move forward. She said to me "I need to do this for me. Its not about the kids or anyone else, this is what I want for me."

Wild stuff.

On the same day, her mom left her dad and drove to a second home. He dad is in let stage alzheimers and needs a fulltime care giver. My wife's sister had to drop everything and go get him. Her mom amazingly said the exact same words. "I need to do this for me. I need some time for myself." Its really wild.

My wife is furious with her mother but doesn't seem to see the parallels.

In July my wife chastised my mother in law for leaving her wedding rings off. My mother in law said you do the same thing to my wife and my wife denied it. My wife wasn't wearing her rings for a long time and now she isn't wearing them again.

All said, I'm going to continue to work to recharge. Try to focus on the kids and work. I'm taking up the guitar, which I find to be calming, and I'm continuing to focus on my prayer life. Nailing down rational detachment is really hard for me though. I used to deny and push down all my feelings and through counseling I began to work to feel them. For me that makes detachment more challenging.

I guess its just a work in progress.