First, remember these words: BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS AND ONLY HALF OF WHAT SHE DOES. WAWs, and WWs in particular, are notorious liars. Many LBHs struggle with this because so many of us believed our Ws to be truthful to a fault. Once BD happens all bets are off. The George Washingtons of Ws become habitual liars over night.
Steve is giving you great advice as usual but just to explain, YES they are liars, but whether it is intentional or not is debateable.
I think they dont even realize that they are lying, it is just the path of least resistance. It might be ingrained in them from childhood that kept them out of trouble with their parents. So it really is a natural occurrence and the reason that you follow all the advice that Steve gave you.
Also if he didnt say this - DB 102 - NO RELATIONSHIP talks.
Just like we are telling you to speak with Actions not words. The same goes for her, when her ACTIONS speak you will know it.
This is an outstanding point. It is almost as if some of these WASs have been possessed. The main point I wanted to make is that do not rely on the fact that they've always been truthful. Post BD their capacity to lie trumps how truthful they used to be. And as Cadet says, it may not even be intentional.
Steve85 - This is my new Mantra!
BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS AND ONLY HALF OF WHAT SHE DOES.
Went out with a friend last night and enjoyed myself.
Of note I have observed W has been stand-offish, no texting or asking questions - very quiet and cold from her camp.she remains in the spare room. She's not asking questions.
This morning she asked what new books I'm reading(indicating self help books/marriage books). I responded by talking about current news and directing the conversation back to her. I'm trying to find the right balance between content, happy but not too talkative and cold, despondent and uninterested. Tough one to get right at the moment, as I'm finding it all quite forced and I can see that she is too. I think I may be quite talkative but only when she initiates conversation.
Any tips on helping to get this balance right?
Do not initiate conversations. Let her. When she does, engage, but mostly listen and validate. Be attentive. But do not overly share. Treat her like you would the cashier at the store (one of sandi's 37 rules!!). Friendly, engaged, but not too intimate with what you share.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I'm also wondering about family events like upcoming birthday events. Do I suggest she doesn't attend my family events? Im concerned about the impact to my children, why mummy is present.
And this weekend we would normally engage in family things to do. Dog walks, meals out, and general togetherness. Does this need to stop? Again, if so, worried on the impact to the kids?
I'm also wondering about family events like upcoming birthday events. Do I suggest she doesn't attend my family events? Im concerned about the impact to my children, why mummy is present.
And this weekend we would normally engage in family things to do. Dog walks, meals out, and general togetherness. Does this need to stop? Again, if so, worried on the impact to the kids?
Guidance very much appreciated here!
Those are difficult waters to navigate, no question. Personally, I think as long as you can be detached and stick to DBing principles then continue to do those types of things jointly. My sitch never got to the point where we did separate activities with my daughter. We weren't "sharing custody" through an arrangement of, 'you take these days, I'll take these day'. We continued to do family things as a family. I just got really good about NOT being overly engaging with her, not reacting emotionally to things she said and did, and engaging in the activities but doing so with the idea that it meant nothing and that we were still getting a D. It really is about what you are capable of. Can you pull the above off?
If you can, then I think it can pay dividends in your sitch because you are showing her that you are moving on, healthy and happy, no matter what she decides. That you can still be engaged in life and activities without being sad, mopey, and woah is me.
And it is an opportunity to show her the positive changes you've made! For ex: Maybe in the past you've exploded in rage (this is hypothetical I am not saying you have) at you kid spilling milk all over the floor. So when that happens at a joint activity and react differently than you have in the past, lovingly, just happily cleaning it up with the attitude that accidents happen, she will start to take note that you are changing for the better. So find those areas you can improve in and then through these joint activities exhibit those new improvements. Not in a show off way, but in the natural, "this is the new me" way.
I love telling this story! So right before my W embraced reconciliation her and I went on a road trip together. It was to a Christian marriage retreat. Through the providence of God, a couple at church that was also attending asked my W and I to go. Mind you they had NO knowledge that we were going through a rough patch, just that a few couples were attending and they thought we'd enjoy the time away as well. My W had a rough time. She was in the final stages of her rebellion against the marriage. The second to last day of the retreat at lunch she made a joke about me checking out other women. I had not been checking out other women, but then she said very seriously "that it would be perfectly fine if you did". This kicked off an R discussion where she made it clear that all of the "marriage is for life" messaging she was getting at the retreat was depressing her because she still wanted a D. I remained pretty calm through all of this, and never really reacted. Though I did pull back from the closeness that had started to develop on the trip. I went back to DB principles. Detached. Present. Pleased. Fuliflled. Okay with whatever ended up being the outcome.
On the way home we discovered that someone had broken into the car trunk while were at dinner one night and stolen $4000 of photography equipment. My W was a professional and hobbyist photographer. The aftermath of that discovery led us to coming together as a team to retrace our steps, contact law enforcement back where the retreat was, and had a strange bonding effect on us. I've always been a bit of a rescuer and she started to see that I was still there for her in that regard. She began softening again, and even afterward starting saying things on the ride home about how she wasn't sure she wanted a D, that she was struggling with what she thought she wanted, and wanting to do the right thing.
We stopped at a drive-thru for dinner on the trip back home, and while we were waiting something on the menu struck my W as funny., and she started making silly little noises. In the past, with our strained marriage, which was a SSM, I had been pretty intolerant of her silliness. I would get aggravated, and berate her for being silly. It was very fatherly and it was bad behavior on my part. However, while in the drive-thru, I chuckled at the noises she had made, and repeated them. I'll never forget her reaction. She actually turned sideways in the passenger seat, look me square in the face, and with a bewildered but happily surprised look on her face said: "Who are you?" I remember smiling back at her, shrugging, and saying something to the effect of "this is just the new me, I am much happier these days". I cannot remember exactly what I said but it was something along those lines.
When we got back from the trip, that is when I started to notice changes in her behavior. She was acting much more committed to our marriage and to the family than she had prior. And while I think it was death by a thousand cuts that got us there, I truly believe that the exchange in the drive-thru line was the straw that broke the camels back.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I'm also wondering about family events like upcoming birthday events. Do I suggest she doesn't attend my family events? Im concerned about the impact to my children, why mummy is present.
And this weekend we would normally engage in family things to do. Dog walks, meals out, and general togetherness. Does this need to stop? Again, if so, worried on the impact to the kids?
Guidance very much appreciated here!
Those are difficult waters to navigate, no question. Personally, I think as long as you can be detached and stick to DBing principles then continue to do those types of things jointly. My sitch never got to the point where we did separate activities with my daughter. We weren't "sharing custody" through an arrangement of, 'you take these days, I'll take these day'. We continued to do family things as a family. I just got really good about NOT being overly engaging with her, not reacting emotionally to things she said and did, and engaging in the activities but doing so with the idea that it meant nothing and that we were still getting a D. It really is about what you are capable of. Can you pull the above off?
If you can, then I think it can pay dividends in your sitch because you are showing her that you are moving on, healthy and happy, no matter what she decides. That you can still be engaged in life and activities without being sad, mopey, and woah is me.
And it is an opportunity to show her the positive changes you've made! For ex: Maybe in the past you've exploded in rage (this is hypothetical I am not saying you have) at you kid spilling milk all over the floor. So when that happens at a joint activity and react differently than you have in the past, lovingly, just happily cleaning it up with the attitude that accidents happen, she will start to take note that you are changing for the better. So find those areas you can improve in and then through these joint activities exhibit those new improvements. Not in a show off way, but in the natural, "this is the new me" way.
I love telling this story! So right before my W embraced reconciliation her and I went on a road trip together. It was to a Christian marriage retreat. Through the providence of God, a couple at church that was also attending asked my W and I to go. Mind you they had NO knowledge that we were going through a rough patch, just that a few couples were attending and they thought we'd enjoy the time away as well. My W had a rough time. She was in the final stages of her rebellion against the marriage. The second to last day of the retreat at lunch she made a joke about me checking out other women. I had not been checking out other women, but then she said very seriously "that it would be perfectly fine if you did". This kicked off an R discussion where she made it clear that all of the "marriage is for life" messaging she was getting at the retreat was depressing her because she still wanted a D. I remained pretty calm through all of this, and never really reacted. Though I did pull back from the closeness that had started to develop on the trip. I went back to DB principles. Detached. Present. Pleased. Fuliflled. Okay with whatever ended up being the outcome.
On the way home we discovered that someone had broken into the car trunk while were at dinner one night and stolen $4000 of photography equipment. My W was a professional and hobbyist photographer. The aftermath of that discovery led us to coming together as a team to retrace our steps, contact law enforcement back where the retreat was, and had a strange bonding effect on us. I've always been a bit of a rescuer and she started to see that I was still there for her in that regard. She began softening again, and even afterward starting saying things on the ride home about how she wasn't sure she wanted a D, that she was struggling with what she thought she wanted, and wanting to do the right thing.
We stopped at a drive-thru for dinner on the trip back home, and while we were waiting something on the menu struck my W as funny., and she started making silly little noises. In the past, with our strained marriage, which was a SSM, I had been pretty intolerant of her silliness. I would get aggravated, and berate her for being silly. It was very fatherly and it was bad behavior on my part. However, while in the drive-thru, I chuckled at the noises she had made, and repeated them. I'll never forget her reaction. She actually turned sideways in the passenger seat, look me square in the face, and with a bewildered but happily surprised look on her face said: "Who are you?" I remember smiling back at her, shrugging, and saying something to the effect of "this is just the new me, I am much happier these days". I cannot remember exactly what I said but it was something along those lines.
When we got back from the trip, that is when I started to notice changes in her behavior. She was acting much more committed to our marriage and to the family than she had prior. And while I think it was death by a thousand cuts that got us there, I truly believe that the exchange in the drive-thru line was the straw that broke the camels back.
Steve85, I must admit I felt relief when you have suggested that family togetherness is possible, it to spend the time with my W but to provide the children with stability and unity for now. They are young, they dont need to feel or see this turmoil.
I believe I can do it with dbing and detachment, I'll def periodically assess this to make sure kids aren't affected. Thank you, it's very encouraging.
Your history is an amazing story and truly fascinating to read. Perhaps one day I'll be able to tell mine which ever way the future falls!
W managed to push all the right buttons last night. Whilst spending some time relaxing on my own W came to me to say she was sorting out her finances so it's all ready and in order and we need to do some painting in a spare room ready. She said she knows she wants divorce and that we are already seperated in the house (not sleeping in mrb) and why would she return, we are seperated and it doesn't make sense to go back to sleeping in the same bed. I haven't asked her too or indicated this at all.
On the bright side, I'm sleeping much better.
Im afraid she did push my buttons. I did say 'you know why you are not in the mbr' ' because you had an affair'. W down played and just stated that it was only text messages and they haven't even kissed. I again reiterated the messages are not acceptable to me in the confines of the marriage. I then decided to stop any further communication and let her get on with sorting out the finances - pension etc.
I know No R talks.... Annoyed that I got sucked into it. I will need to develop a better strategy to not get pulled in.
Roll on this morning. I decided to help paint the spare room, this might be enabling but I don't want to be obstructive with moving on, and of course want the highest possible sale price for the house when it goes to market. (got my head around selling the family home now)
W is being very stand offish and cold and withdrawn from me. (I read the pursuer and distance, so I am not getting drawn in) Think I went two steps back yesterday, for some reason I found continuing to detach quite hard.
**Of note ** on reflection, mentally I got caught in the trap of thinking that I would see progress quickly. I know this is really wrong, everything I have read suggests this is a marathon. I need to be patient and there is no quick fix or magic bullet. Its difficult living in pergatory for so long, I guess the brain wants a quick way out'
W is currently not in MBR, at my request, and remains in a spare room. So far W has stated that we are seperated (cohabiting) and it doesn't make sense for her to try and come back to MBR as she wants D. Last night W said we should start to talk to kids about the sitch as they are starting to ask questions as to why mummy is not in mbr.
I did bite a little and say 'yes, YOU need to do some research to bring it to the table so we can navigate this properly' ( I felt strongly at the time that W has brought D onto the table so should start doing some of the hard work) not my best moment but was a natural reaction at the time.
We are some way away from actioning D. We haven't yet begun process of financial mediation etc. Its been loosely spoken about but not actively booked. Individually I do believe we have both been sorting our finances out though. I don't want to steam roll and start booking all this and organising this as I don't want D!
My concerns are that it is too soon to inform the children, although W is set on D, she and I have agreed to slow things down for Xmas to pass so as not to damage the xmas season for the rest of the children's lives.
Do I allow W back into the MBR for the sakes of prolonging telling the children? (not too sure this is a good move now- respect)
Has anyone navigated these waters or have any take on what works?
