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Pommy99 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Ginger1
They call that trickle truth

Yes H is a master at it. He has denied so much in relation to OW until presented with evidence. And even then it will be the bare minimum, until caught out again.

At MC last month he broke down when saying he had done something he never thought he would do, and that was lie to his wife, It made him hate himself, filled him with shame, guilt. And yet here we are again.


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020
Recon #2: since Nov 2020
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LH-- I'm thinking a lot on what you and others have said about value and will answer more on my thread once I've put it together in my head. How I feel right now is this-- it doesn't really matter to me at this moment whether or not my H thinks I'm "valuable" or not. What matters is what I think of myself, and then following that what my boundaries are, how I'm enforcing them, and whether or not I'm living my life in accordance with my core values. Each of us has different boundaries and core values. Yours may be different than mine. If I choose to stay, that doesn't inherently make me weak, or wrong, or scared, or demonstrate I see myself as valueless. We're all different and have different boundaries. I think the most important thing is really understanding yourself and what you need and value, then making your own life choices based on that. Not other people's interpretations of what that should look like. And for me (and for Pommy too)-- this is a big decision. Not something to do in a knee-jerk fashion.

Pommy-- I think what Valeska is saying is right on, about your emotional well-being and safety being your responsibility, not your H's. I know know know the pull of wanting to have him help you with this right now, and I think it was a mistake I made in the spring-- I wanted to get to piecing too quickly when we were still in R and my H was (unbeknownst to me) still ambivalent about his decision. I wanted things from him he wasn't ready to give (and may never be able to give.) In fact, he said to me this weekend that the big "transparency" conversation we had probably did contribute to him relapsing and reaching back out to AP, rather than being the springboard I hoped it would be to launch us into piecing. What Valeska says about your H wanting to do the work but not actually being ready to do the work seems to really fit, and I know that was similar for my H (though he was probably a step back from that, felt like he HAD to do it but didn't really want to. At least your H wants it.)

I've been thinking about R and piecing, what is and isn't possible, how people can grow and change, or not. It seems like the most straightforward path to piecing and M2.0 is like BluWave's: full on separation, the WAS goes out to live their fantasy life, hits rock bottom, finally has enough motivation to make real, lasting changes in themselves, comes crawling back, and after a fairly substantial period of time, like months, of repeated demonstration that the changes are real, the LBS agrees to take the WAS back and piecing begins. Reconciliation (or at least the first part of reconciliation) is taking place outside of the marital home, the WAS is full of remorse, willing to do anything and everything to demonstrate to the LBS that they're someone worthy of their love. That WAS will do all the things you need and be the person you can lean on if you need to, because they're going to go above and beyond to support you in healing from the trauma they caused. If you were in this situation, your H wouldn't be whining about not feeling passionate or whatever, and he definitely wouldn't have hid the text from you (it may never have come because he would have blocked her in the first place).

On the other end of the spectrum you have Wayfarer or Steve85, though Wayfarer's sitch is more extreme-- the WAS never leaves, the LBS buckles down and DBs for a long time until at some point the WAS emotionally returns to the M and wants to reconcile/piece. The lines are much, much harder to draw, understanding when R starts, understanding when piecing starts. I think the key for all of this is learning to take care of yourself throughout all of this, taking your own happiness and wellbeing into your own hands and letting him do the same on his own side. If you decide to stay, I would look to Wayfarer for inspiration, I really would. (If I decide to go in for another round, this is what I'll do.) She completely dropped the rope and relied on her H for absolutely nothing. She took care of herself, her kids, expected nothing of him to the point that he continually knocked her off balance when he leaned in instead of the other way around.

I feel like you and I expect that our Hs, once they make the choice to work on the M, should act logically and do the right thing. You don't want to be a liar, don't lie. You don't want to have people say you were having an affair all along-- don't have an affair. You want to build trust with your W, take every opportunity to do that-- ESPECIALLY when your AP reaches out. You want to work on your marriage, you do everything you possibly can to support a positive outcome from blocking your AP to ruthlessly squashing thoughts of them when they pop up. But unfortunately, whether due to some inherent character flaw or a version of an MLC or whatever, they can't do that. Their emotions are ruling the day. Their GD FEELINGS are soooooooo important, important enough to jerk everyone else in their lives around.

I mean, what about your daughters? Can't he think of them when he gets a text from AP? They've already been through the trauma of him leaving and then coming back. He's going to risk their well-being again by engaging in behaviors that are not in alignment with staying in your M?

Anyway...I digress. These Hs are weak and selfish or we wouldn't be here. in a sitch like yours, where your H left, but didn't really get to experience the full fantasy life and have it blow up on him, I think he's probably more in the Wayfarer (or my) H's category-- he isn't fully baked. He hasn't gone through the fire and come out the other side a changed man. He wants that but hasn't made it very far down the path. He can't let you lean on him yet because he's still going through a whole lot of $hit in his head, did he make the right choice, can he ever be happy, how can he be M when he still has feelings for AP, OMG what if AP is dying, but what about Pommy, what about the kids, who am I???? (all things my H has said to me, except the cancer part) You're getting to watch him bake, very very slowly. Or not. You'll have to decide if you can heal and be able to rely wholly on yourself for your own emotional processing and happiness with your H still in your house.

I'd spend some time around Valenska's questions at the end. What do you need for YOU, and then how does that translate into what you want in terms of your H.

(((POMMY)))


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Originally Posted by Pommy
I honestly don’t know why he wanted to come back, we had about 7 weeks honeymoon period, then something happened and he went all distant. I am now thinking perhaps this is when they got back in contact.

The thing with H is he denies everything unless presented with evidence. So today he was caught red handed and now surprise, surprise they have only been in contact since this morning, I don’t believe him . Why should I?

Yeah.... I think you're probably right about the timing of him going distant and reconnecting with her.

I will say, in my situation with my sad lying H, the biggest revelations have come when he has approached me on his own and told me things about past lies, omissions, or what is going on rather than me getting very far in confronting him. (For instance, me in this most recent situation-- are you i contact with her? No. Well, this email. Then a few days later, actually I have been in contact with her, several times, this day, this day, that day.)

I think that they are so used to lying in the day-to-day and they're so scared of the consequences that they just goes to the lie as a default every time, and then they're kind of trapped there because they don't want to admit to MORE lies. My H said every time I had asked him "Is there more?" that he didn't cop to all the final revelations I just got because after the first time he said no, this is it, every time he added more things that he'd lied about it would just make me trust him less and less, so he didn't want to admit to it.

Originally Posted by Pommy
At MC last month he broke down when saying he had done something he never thought he would do, and that was lie to his wife, It made him hate himself, filled him with shame, guilt. And yet here we are again.

I have found that my H has these feelings more when he's actively lying than when he isn't. So I wonder if that expression was him saying how he felt in the present rather than thinking about past behavior.

I feel like your H needs a come to Jesus moment. Or some sort of truth amnesty place like in MC where he can feel OK about telling you maybe things he hasn't said in the past about what he's done. I wonder if there are other lies about the extent of the relationship with OW that he hasn't shared yet, and that is also bothering him. But it feels impossible (even to me) to be in a situation where the only time you learn any truths is when you catch him red-handed. How will you ever learn to trust him without turning into the police?


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Pommy, I am so sorry you are dealing with this right now.

I don't know if this is the right thing to do or not, but what if you asked H what he would do in your situation? In a very neutral sense, almost like talking to a best friend. That you are at the end of the road here and need to turn right or left, but going straight ahead isn't an option; there's no road. Which way would he choose? Can you have a deeply emotional conversation like this in a completely unemotional way? Can you make a decision about the next steps together, as if you are not so deeply invested in the outcome?

I get the sense from your posts that H is sensitive and maybe not too confident in his own decision-making capabilities. Maybe he needs to really hit rock bottom before he can truly come back as a whole human husband. And I don't think rock bottom is going to be a tongue-lashing from you, renewed expectations, hours in IC and MC, etc. He needs to watch you walk away, forever. He needs to believe that this is truly it.

As hard as it may be, getting out right now may be in your best interest. Because you may work this out and always look over your shoulder, or you may go through this again and again every 3-4 months and be decimated in the process. In some ways, your last detachment, the one that made H come home, truncated both of your processes: you didn't get to fully 'become' the new woman you were working towards, and H didn't really hit rock bottom and build himself back up to a great place. Who would Pommy be today if H never came home?

And, I know this isn't funny, but I can't help thinking of LH's comment on May's thread about all the boomeranging, wishy-washy WAHs on this board being f-ing weak-a$$ puss!es and how they don't deserve us women. He's right.

But no matter what your next steps are, you don't have to decide right away. Maybe more information will come out in the coming days that give you some guidance into your next steps.

(((((Pommy)))))

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P,

Sage just gave you some really good advice.

It's tough when their are hints of reconciliation from our spouses but they aren't truly ready yet. I had that with my exw. After an initial seperation we got back together for a year and a half. We attended some MC but she never did the homework. She didn't want me to have access to her phone because she said it was an invasion of her privacy. I can remember walking in the room one day while she was texting and it was so obvious she was hiding something. Everyday I would come home and the first thing I would do was look to see if her phone was on the charger. Pretty $hitty way to live. 6 years ago Saturday I caught her secretly texting my neighbor. Knowing what I know now anything short of her apologizing, giving me full transparency and complete remorse I would have divorced her right then.

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So some updates from overnight:
- I went out for a couple of hours in the evening, didn't tell H where I went, but actually just went and sat by a lake in the evening sun. He moped around me all evening after I got back. We started a R talk late evening and H said that situations like this, where he's upset me, make him scared that I'm going to leave. He said he has this pull and need for me and he is scared that I'll go. However, he is feeling despondent that the feelings he wants to feel are not there, and it's been a few months now since he came back.

- I got up in the middle of the night and searched through his iPad. I guess I'm just looking for answers, something to grab on to that tells me to leave. I found text messages from mid-May. Nothing more than "I'll call you back baby", (ugh) but this is a month later than he said contact ended. There was a txt from him on 26th May as well - "I'll call you back" - 4 days before he asked to come home. He's adamant that he hasn't been in contact since then. When he asked to come home he told me he hadn't been in touch for weeks blah blah, and I believed that he really had had a period of reflection, where he'd broken contact with her for at least 6 weeks - not 4 bl00dy days.

- So I launched this at him at 3am. Said he had an outstanding capacity for lying. His response was just their friendship hadn't ended on bad terms. They'd agreed to concentrate on their respective marriages in April but there was still a little contact afterwards. (Apparently, calling her "baby" is just a friendly term.) Then I asked him to leave. He said ok. sorry.

- This morning I went over again the events from yesterday, seeing the panic on his face when I walked up to him while he was texting, and how quickly he swiped the message away and somehow managed to delete them by the time I'd asked to see his phone. He is still adamant that it was only yesterday she told him the news about the cancer and he hadn't been in touch since before he came back home. (all this overheard by D16)

- I took Sage's advice and asked his opinion on what he would do if he were me. He said he truly didn't know.

- Now we get to the bit about "us" - he still doesn't have those feelings that he wants for me, he doesn't want the pain of breaking up, he wants a simple and happy life and not a broken marriage, he wants those feelings for me. As far as he is concerned, OW has no bearing on how he feels about me. However, he feels that our marriage has always lacked a real passionate spark and is questioning what our relationship is built on - it seems to be friendship and loyalty of 20 years, but we've never had that amazing connection (although he said we did before we were married but we never developed our relationship beyond that into a deeper existence). He doesn't know if we are asking the impossible, in trying to achieve something that never truly existed. He wants to ask MC tomorrow (he has a 1-2-1 session with the MC). He wants the pain to stop as much as I do.

So, that's where we are, more tears this morning, I've said I don't know what I feel right now but I do want to make the marriage work. I just don't understand if 2 people love each other, why is it so difficult. He keeps apologizing and saying sorry for ruining my life, that he never wanted to hurt me like this. He wants to do our MC homework tonight (the sensate focus, reconnecting etc).

I feel like we are still running round in circles. However, I am a believer that this will take a lot of time to heal and a lot of the progress is beneath the surface. But he is despondent that things aren't clicking into place. He says its not the "new love/butterflies" that he's after but that sense of connection that leads to a passionate marriage. We have the friendship and loyalty but not the deep emotional connection, and he's not sure whether we can create that if it was never there.

I cant see the wood for the trees anymore. I don't know where to direct my focus or channel my energy. I know you will all say detach and GAL but I'm also questioning whether I should just give up.


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020
Recon #2: since Nov 2020
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Did he use the term loyalty? Does her understand the definition?

I don't think you need to give up but crystal clear boundaries are in order.

OW is still on his mind and in his heart and he can't reconnect with you until that's not the case anymore.

His actions need follow up with his words.

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Originally Posted by LH19
I don't think you need to give up but crystal clear boundaries are in order.

This seems hard right now. He cares for her, she has cancer, he will want to know how she is, and will presumably want to keep a track of her situation because he cares for her.

Where do I go with this? Not going NC is a deal breaker.

Originally Posted by LH19
OW is still on his mind and in his heart and he can't reconnect with you until that's not the case anymore.


He always, always tells me this is nothing to do with feelings for her. That he was out of love with me long before she came along. And that our connection has always been out of sync. That's his truth. Of course she woke up feelings in him (and they had an amazing connection).


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020
Recon #2: since Nov 2020
Joined: Feb 2017
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P,

I’m not sure what to say to you. You seem like a amazing woman. These things are hard! Hard decisions need to be made. If she is hospitalized is he going to visit her? I mean where does it end?

One of two things is holding him back. It’s either her or he’s not attracted to you and likely will never be.

I’m sorry.

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We had a talk. He says he needs to focus on his own life and issues right now, that this is bad timing and that he feels he should put an end to all contact but right now it might make him feel worse, in a callous sense.

The attraction thing - it really cuts deep to read that. He said today what keeps him going is how my feelings changed, how I went from not being attracted to him, to totally changing the way I felt. This was all before OW - it had to do with dropping long-held resentments, and again seeing the person I had married. He wants to believe it can happen.


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020
Recon #2: since Nov 2020
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