Finding the man I want to be, alone. Pack_19 part3

[unchien]

Let's see if this time I get it right. I am in a very emotional moment now and very lost regarding what to do.

You don't have to do anything. Your emotions are controlling you right now. Until you understand that you will continue to make unskillful decisions.

You CAN tolerate intense emotions without doing anything. Try it. It may be excruciating. Force yourself to do it. Then do it again. And again. "Wow," you might say at some point in the future, "I was like a brainless monkey responding to my emotions. Now that I have this newfound emotional awareness, I can *choose* how to respond to situations. I feel empowered, centered, grounded. I feel amazing."

I heard W was unfaithful but it is a topic I cannot talk to her about, in the meantime she keeps being resentful towards me. At some point I need to decide what to do next, based on my principles and any hopes I can still hold for my M.

That is how she feels right now.

Why must you decide what to do next?

However, it is not a good time to take action and make a decision. For 15 days. I can just do nothing, let days go by and work on calming down and keep GAL and making me the best I can be. Do you think this path will help me or based on the amount of time we have been S do you see little if not any hope at all?

Working on yourself for 15 days will absolutely help you.

Working on yourself for 15 days may or may not have any effect whatsoever on your W. Probably not, from the sound of it.

[Pack_19]

LH, Ben,

Thanks for the replies! I will try to work on myself for the near future, I will read on the internet about detachment and apply your advice. Everyday instead of repeating myself "we can have a great new M 2.0", I will tell myself "The outcome does not depend on me".

Your words will stick in my head I can guarantee. Goal 1 - Stop spinning, Goal 2- detachment, Goal 3 - GAL.

thank you all! ((hugs)) Pack

[sandi2]

I have always loved my W and I did focus on providing and achieving the best for our family. During the last year of our M I was under great pressure because S2 had just been born and I created this silly idea on me that I had to push for a better house, job and life in general now that we had 2 kids. Intimacy went down the drain with a baby next to us and an au-pair in the room next to us. Now looking back I can realize back then she was already resentful, she would not appreciate any of my actions or suggestions and she also pulled away from me. Being in this dark place I became irritable and I cut conversations. I dont think I have been a poor husband, I just did not prioritize the M as I should have done and I assumed my definition of love (bigger house, better school, helping her find a better career) was her definition as well. I am not trying to change the message, I am just saying by the end of the M I had also become a person you would not go have a party with, just some reflections on my side of the problems.

Thank you for explaining. This sounds a little more in line with your description when you first came to the board.

This is how she behaves with me. No talks about me being loving.

That is why your post dumbfounded when me when I read about her saying she wanted to see you being a loving H before she went back. You had never told us about it.

Originally Posted by sandi2

How many times have you contacted in some form or fashion since that original message about an open marriage? Do you remember why I told you not to contact her for the 15 days?

You told me because you thought she would test me right?

No! That is not why I told you to wait 15 days without contact. When you heard about your W cheating, you contacted her and you gave her 15 days to give her answer about the M. You had already done all of this before you told the board, and we were trying to get you to calm down before you regretted further mistakes. My advice was to go NC during the 15 days you had given her in the ultimatum. I did tell you I thought she would test you by contacting you......if you went silent. However, that was not the purpose for you to go NC during the 15 days, and you have contacted her several times. What part of NC do you not understand?

Below are quotes from of your posts that followed my advice of NC:

Things have gone worse, I did send her a message telling her I thought her behaviour was despicable and she was a lousy wife and mother (yes I was freaking inspired there but I let my emotions run wild) and she passed it on to her L. I have been warned by my L because of domestic violence so I am backing off totally. Basically, all the things I thought she would never do, she is doing.

We have been communicating via email and yesterday afternoon I spend some time with the children which was great for me. S6 told me we are separated because I was "bad with mommy" which was very hard to hear but I calmly told her I was never bad, only nervous and it will never happen again.

If I try to talk to her about the information I got on her going out wild she will ignore me, she treats me like a dog again. Yesterday when I dropped the kids we met at her elevator and her words were "It was back by 21 not 21:15 and do not ever come up my elevator" then she tried to take the kids and leave but I stopped her to kiss them goodbye.

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We have been communicating as I said over email the last 2 days.

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I think a lot about your comments on how things had to get worse before I could see a change if ever, well I dont think things can get any worse than when your W threatens with police. [color:#CC0000](First of all, I wasn't the one who initially told you things had to get worse before they would get better, which was alright b/c I agree that things will have to get worse for your W. I don't think you fully understood what that mean, although, LH explained it.)

I felt the quote below was somewhat misleading about the advice I had given you. You make it sound as if I advised you to send her the email and then back away from her. No, I told you to not contact during the 15 day period.

[quote]thanks for all your support. I read all your messages yesterday many times, I decided to send her a message and back off as Sandi suggested.

Here is what I wrote :
"I need to talk to you, without shouting and without contempt, as you imagine I still believe that we can be very happy but for me our marriage is not dead and I will not live in an open marriage where we can do whatever we want because my values are that I have promised to be your support and partner for life and I will fulfill it if you allow me. At least grant me the dignity to sit down with me and explain to me how you feel. I'm not going to pressure you into anything, right now I'm going to pull away from you because I don't think I can go any lower and I need to think about who I am, who you are, what we are together and what I want in this life. If you prefer that we never talk and the days go by I will decide how I want to deal with this for me and the children."

Recently, you posted how you went shopping with S6 for school clothes, and you contacted your W to invite her to join. Paco, can you not see that inviting your W to join you to shop is pursuit? She can't stand to be around you! Just b/c it is shopping for S6, does not allow for pursuing your W. Frankly, I think you use the children as your excuse to contact her. Do you think since she said she didn't want to hear you talk about anything other than the children, that's your free ticket to contact her? How many times do you find something as an excuse to talk about the kids, when in reality you just want to make contact with her? You need to get real serious about NC, Paco, b/c your actions cause you to look weak. Yes, you are suffering, but you have to let yourself feel the pain. Mourn the passing of the marriage, b/c it is dead. She doesn't want you. No matter how much you want to save it for the kids, she doesn't want you. Until you can let it go, you will not improve yourself as a man. You will make the same mistakes in your next relationship. Control, ultimatums, pursuit, & pressure. You must lean to change these in Paco. You must learn to make these changes apart from her. Why? B/c these bad actions come from a place inside of you.........not your W. You've done some wonderful things in other areas, but it doesn't appear you've worked on the inside of Paco. Know what I mean? Those are the hard things to change.

You keep asking how to proceed. I will tell you. It's the same as you've already been told. You are always talking about fighting for your M. Stop fighting for the M. Stop recommitting everyday to your M, b/c it sends your brain mixed messages. I feel that is why your posts have sounded confusing. When you exchange the kids, just say hello and goodbye to her. Don't have a conversation with her. If she tells you something about the kids, you can listen, but otherwise tell her goodbye and walk away. Don't show her your emotions. At the moment, you can't have a positive relationship with her, b/c you want her for a W, and she doesn't want it. You have to step away from her and leave her alone. You have to stop the struggle and let her go, before you can expect to have a friendly relationship co-parenting your sons. You've pressured her from the beginning, instead of learning how to leave her alone and give her what she wants. I know you wanted more, but I am telling you it's not going to happen like you wanted. It will probably take her years before she's willing to act nice.

Most of all, stop looking for the "next step" to do. Sometimes, you just have to "be"........instead of "doing".

[SteveLW]

Pack, In my opinion, you should work on detachment. You are way too attached right now

THIS!

[SteveLW]

hi all,

Let's see if this time I get it right. I am in a very emotional moment now and very lost regarding what to do. I heard W was unfaithful but it is a topic I cannot talk to her about, in the meantime she keeps being resentful towards me. At some point I need to decide what to do next, based on my principles and any hopes I can still hold for my M.

However, it is not a good time to take action and make a decision. For 15 days. I can just do nothing, let days go by and work on calming down and keep GAL and making me the best I can be. Do you think this path will help me or based on the amount of time we have been S do you see little if not any hope at all?

It is true I have been THE most unteachable person in this board, I guess this is why I have hope if I can do what the members of the forum advice, at least I will be able to sit down and enjoy life aside of what W does or doesn't do.

Thank you all for your honesty and help. ((hugs)) Pack

Fall back on DBing principles.

- Do not start R talks. (This includes about her infidelity)
- GAL (Those that struggle the most do GAL the worst)
- Continue to work on self-improvements. (Are you in IC? What books are you reading? How are you trying to become the best Pack_19 possible?)
- Detach! You need to be at a place where hearing about her infidelity has no impact on you at all. The fact that it has impacted you means you are still overly attached.
- Doing nothing IS doing something. (Do not give into the illusion of action.)

Pack, when you struggle the most, turn back to the DB principles. I am not going to lie, as time goes on the hope continues to dwindle. I am of the belief that someone can always change as long as they are still alive. But you need to be moving on with your life.

[Pack_19]

No! That is not why I told you to wait 15 days without contact. When you heard about your W cheating, you contacted her and you gave her 15 days to give her answer about the M. You had already done all of this before you told the board, and we were trying to get you to calm down before you regretted further mistakes. My advice was to go NC during the 15 days you had given her in the ultimatum. I did tell you I thought she would test you by contacting you......if you went silent. However, that was not the purpose for you to go NC during the 15 days, and you have contacted her several times. What part of NC do you not understand?

HI again Sandi, thanks a lot for being so honest with me. I have no excuse, I have done a poor job here. Even if now it is late I will implement NC. What was then the purpose of those 15 days NC after my poor reaction issuing the ultimatum?

Recently, you posted how you went shopping with S6 for school clothes, and you contacted your W to invite her to join. Paco, can you not see that inviting your W to join you to shop is pursuit? She can't stand to be around you! Just b/c it is shopping for S6, does not allow for pursuing your W. Frankly, I think you use the children as your excuse to contact her. Do you think since she said she didn't want to hear you talk about anything other than the children, that's your free ticket to contact her? How many times do you find something as an excuse to talk about the kids, when in reality you just want to make contact with her? You need to get real serious about NC, Paco, b/c your actions cause you to look weak. Yes, you are suffering, but you have to let yourself feel the pain. Mourn the passing of the marriage, b/c it is dead. She doesn't want you. No matter how much you want to save it for the kids, she doesn't want you. Until you can let it go, you will not improve yourself as a man. You will make the same mistakes in your next relationship. Control, ultimatums, pursuit, & pressure. You must lean to change these in Paco. You must learn to make these changes apart from her. Why? B/c these bad actions come from a place inside of you.........not your W. You've done some wonderful things in other areas, but it doesn't appear you've worked on the inside of Paco. Know what I mean? Those are the hard things to change.

So true, the sad thing is that I have never been like this. I have never been controlling or pursued people who did not want a R with me. When you refer to future R you mean with other W right? I am getting the feeling you all see from the outside how little hope there is for my situation given how we are interacting. Anyways, yes changing the inside is the hardest part, is like rewiring your brain to avoid reactions and thoughts you had before. I went to IC yesterday and she told me I need to work on controlling my impulses, I need to let our Ls handle any conversation and work on accepting is her decision to not have a R with me.

I did see W Sunday to exchange the kids. I was going to leave when she stopped me to complain about some money she has to pay and she requested me to pay my part. I said that is in the agreement we have and our Ls should discuss it but then she insulted me, she threatened with D (what a surprise!) and she told em we would go in front of a judge if necessary. All of this in front of S6 and S2, who was crying because he wanted to stay with me and W would not let me hold him. I told her multiple times to stop insulting me, specially in front of our children, but she kept going until she said one of her magic sentences "you have many issues and you have not changed". I am SICK of these interactions, look if she wants a D let her have a D, I am a an of worth and I should not be insulted in front of S6 who adores me. I am since then working on implementing NC properly (only kids EMERGENCIES), implementing GAL and letting this suffering, this fire, run through my body while doing NOTHING.

I joined a new padel (the sport I play) group yesterday. Training with young men I just met who have a really good level felt great, then we had a beer and they all wanted to hear about my life in the UK and Germany. It was like reconnecting with myself a bit more. It was a great day. Today I have friends coming home and I finished building the new ikea furniture for my room. The new mattress is AMAZING! I slept like a baby yesterday.

Thank you all for the comments encouraging me to calm down, feel the pain and do nothing but improving myself. I really needed that advice, I am not sure I can thank you enough.

You keep asking how to proceed. I will tell you. It's the same as you've already been told. You are always talking about fighting for your M. Stop fighting for the M. Stop recommitting everyday to your M, b/c it sends your brain mixed messages. I feel that is why your posts have sounded confusing. When you exchange the kids, just say hello and goodbye to her. Don't have a conversation with her. If she tells you something about the kids, you can listen, but otherwise tell her goodbye and walk away. Don't show her your emotions. At the moment, you can't have a positive relationship with her, b/c you want her for a W, and she doesn't want it. You have to step away from her and leave her alone. You have to stop the struggle and let her go, before you can expect to have a friendly relationship co-parenting your sons. You've pressured her from the beginning, instead of learning how to leave her alone and give her what she wants. I know you wanted more, but I am telling you it's not going to happen like you wanted. It will probably take her years before she's willing to act nice.

I dont want a co parenting friendship with W, I agree with something you told me once Sandi. I choose a W because I expect from that person a very different R than with a friend. I am not saying this in a resentful way, if she does not want me to be her H fine, then she will not be in my life or she will be only as much as necessary for my children. How sad for them, nobody asked them to come to this world and all they are learning from their parents is to shout and argue. I am thinking a lot about how to change that from what I can control, IC has recommended I act like a
broken record repeating over an over "look W, this is not something I will discuss with you, let our Ls handle it".
Most of all, stop looking for the "next step" to do.

Sometimes, you just have to "be"........instead of "doing".

Not sure what defines me anymore, I really need to find myself again. Enough with the D threats, she will also be losing the best she has ever had and if cannot see that is her problem.

In the same way that I thank you for asking me to calm down, thank you for directing me towards inner changes. It feels great to get similar messages from the board and my IC, surely there are things I still MUST change if I am ever to have my M back. I am feeling better today, W can get a D, she can get OM, but she will never change the wonderful person I am about to become.

[Valeska19]

I did see W Sunday to exchange the kids. I was going to leave when she stopped me to complain about some money she has to pay and she requested me to pay my part. I said that is in the agreement we have and our Ls should discuss it but then she insulted me, she threatened with D (what a surprise!) and she told em we would go in front of a judge if necessary. All of this in front of S6 and S2, who was crying because he wanted to stay with me and W would not let me hold him. I told her multiple times to stop insulting me, specially in front of our children, but she kept going until she said one of her magic sentences "you have many issues and you have not changed". I am SICK of these interactions, look if she wants a D let her have a D, I am a an of worth and I should not be insulted in front of S6 who adores me. I am since then working on implementing NC properly (only kids EMERGENCIES), implementing GAL and letting this suffering, this fire, run through my body while doing NOTHING.

This is when you walk away Pack. No one says you have to sit there and take. You asked her to stop. She didn't. So you walk away.
It's not about doing nothing. It's about changing the dance. Change your part.

Not sure what defines me anymore, I really need to find myself again. Enough with the D threats, she will also be losing the best she has ever had and if cannot see that is her problem.

I'm gonna assume this is just your anger speaking here... but becareful to not act on it or deeply believe it. No One is the best someone ever had. That's just hurt talking.

[Mumin]

Sounds like you are in general doing real good!
But I Alps agree with Valeska here.
It sounds as if no arguing in front of kids is one of your boundaries (as it should be).
So just leave. Tell the kids you love them and turn around.
Exchange kids at daycare, that makes it easier for everyone.

[Pack_19]

Fall back on DBing principles.

- Do not start R talks. (This includes about her infidelity)
- GAL (Those that struggle the most do GAL the worst)
- Continue to work on self-improvements. (Are you in IC? What books are you reading? How are you trying to become the best Pack_19 possible?)
- Detach! You need to be at a place where hearing about her infidelity has no impact on you at all. The fact that it has impacted you means you are still overly attached.
- Doing nothing IS doing something. (Do not give into the illusion of action.)

Pack, when you struggle the most, turn back to the DB principles. I am not going to lie, as time goes on the hope continues to dwindle. I am of the belief that someone can always change as long as they are still alive. But you need to be moving on with your life.

Hi Steve!
Thanks a lot for your message.

I am going to IC weekly and the one piece of advice I got yesterday was to focus on controlling my impulses and accepting the situation I am currently living. I am re-reading "The way of the superior man" and next on my shelf are NMMNG, "The multiorgasmic man" and "The art of seduction".

Given that I have a good exercise routine established, I am focusing now on the R with my kids, showing more empathy with others, thinking before I speak about what I am about to say and listening actively to those I engage with. My biggest mistakes with W were in not being there for her all the times she tried to tell me how she was struggling and putting myself on her shoes, I am trying to do that now.

No more R or OP talks, understood.

Detachment is the subject I keep failing, I am going to use the same mindset I used for the exercise routine, make it a daily goal.

I guess at some level doing nothing felt like giving up, I did not have a beginners mindset here. Inaction about M or D and focusing on myself are my current priorities.

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@Valeska, @ Mumin

It is very hard to walk away because when I do she spits out more fire and threats, IC gave me advice on how to impose this boundary and I will work on that.

What I said about what I have been to her was not in a vindictive or arrogant way. I feel very proud I chose her to be the mother of my children despite what is happening now. I know I have failed in many emotional aspects but I also gave her many things even if that was not her love language or interpretation of love. Our R was far from perfect and I am sure it could be much improved or she could have a new one that is better with other person. We have had very hard circumstances in foreign countries and always with a baby next to us ever since we got married. I know I am far from perfect, I am just very tired of being blamed, accused, undermined and ignored as if I had a toxic personality or was a man of little worth. I can be a great friend, father and husband, more so now that I am learning the things I missed out on. I am working now on understanding it is not my duty to maker see anything, my only goal is to be happy again.

Thanks a lot for your support and help. I truly value your messages and time.

[SteveLW]

Fall back on DBing principles.

- Do not start R talks. (This includes about her infidelity)
- GAL (Those that struggle the most do GAL the worst)
- Continue to work on self-improvements. (Are you in IC? What books are you reading? How are you trying to become the best Pack_19 possible?)
- Detach! You need to be at a place where hearing about her infidelity has no impact on you at all. The fact that it has impacted you means you are still overly attached.
- Doing nothing IS doing something. (Do not give into the illusion of action.)

Pack, when you struggle the most, turn back to the DB principles. I am not going to lie, as time goes on the hope continues to dwindle. I am of the belief that someone can always change as long as they are still alive. But you need to be moving on with your life.

Hi Steve!
Thanks a lot for your message.

I am going to IC weekly and the one piece of advice I got yesterday was to focus on controlling my impulses and accepting the situation I am currently living. I am re-reading "The way of the superior man" and next on my shelf are NMMNG, "The multiorgasmic man" and "The art of seduction".

Given that I have a good exercise routine established, I am focusing now on the R with my kids, showing more empathy with others, thinking before I speak about what I am about to say and listening actively to those I engage with. My biggest mistakes with W were in not being there for her all the times she tried to tell me how she was struggling and putting myself on her shoes, I am trying to do that now.

No more R or OP talks, understood.

Detachment is the subject I keep failing, I am going to use the same mindset I used for the exercise routine, make it a daily goal.

I guess at some level doing nothing felt like giving up, I did not have a beginners mindset here. Inaction about M or D and focusing on myself are my current priorities.

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DBing is about getting past your feelings. Your feelings will deceive you and make you do things you think you should, but are actually detrimental. For instance, you say:

"My biggest mistakes with W were in not being there for her all the times she tried to tell me how she was struggling and putting myself on her shoes, I am trying to do that now. "

This is a good learning, and definitely an opportunity for a 180. BUT, this is not something you should be trying to do with your WAW right now. Lots of LBSs get trapped by this. DBing says, let her go. Move on. GAL. 180 on bad behavior and detach. But because the main complaint from the WAS is "you weren't there for me", we throw aside DBing principles and pursue, pressure, and smother the WAS which drives them faster and further away.

I like to use the analogy of someone trying to feed you after you've just stuffed yourself. "No thanks I just ate." Oh come on! There is room for more! "No really, I am stuffed, I couldn't possibly eat another bite." But I made this just for you, just a small serving!

That's annoying isn't it? But that is exactly what LBSs do to their WAS. WAS: "I am full of you and don't want anymore." LBS: "But here! Let's do this, let's go here. Let's discuss things. Can I get you anything? Here is a present! Talk to me! LET ME GIVE YOU MY ATTENTION!"

Same dynamic.

Doing nothing always feels counter-intuitive to what we "feel" we should do. The best course of action in regards to our WAS is usually doing nothing. They expect us to pressure and pursue. They've girded up their loins to fend it off. BD was not an over night decision, it took long months, even years, of realizing that they were going to hurt you by destroying your world, but once they've gotten past that then their capacity to continue to hurt you is off the chart. The goal for the LBS is to not give them anymore opportunities to hurt you. You accomplish that by not pressuring and pursuing at all. And you accomplish that by doing nothing.

It isn't giving up. It is giving them what they've asked for.