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Originally Posted by may22


Pommy, fully remorseful-- he's sorry for hurting me, he's sorry for doing wrong... but what he hasn't articulated-- I think because he doesn't feel it-- is that he's sorry for having a relationship with her. I don't think he is. I think he feels he was in a bad place and his A was life-giving to him. He isn't sorry for knowing her or having a relationship with her, I don't think-- sorry for lying, sorry for the aspects of it that hurt me, sorry for breaking my trust and all that, but not actually sorry that it happened. Like if he could go back in time, what would he do differently? Would he walk away and come home and tell me hey, our M is in trouble and we need help? I truly don't know, where he is right now, that he wishes he had done that. I think he might wish he had had the b@lls to come home and ask for a D before he did anything "wrong."

Of course, neither of us could go back in time and I partially feel like it is a waste of time thinking this way. That what happened happened and we deal with it now one way or another. And I do feel like in the end, I'd rather feel like the A was something that we got through together and our M2.0 is stronger and better because of it, not a huge horrible mistake my H made that I munificently forgave him for. But that would be so much easier if I felt like he thought to himself, dang, I sure missed a bullet with that one. Not, dang, if only things were different maybe I could be living my fantasy life right now.



I think your point here about what is missing for you to feel as though he is fully remorseful is very insightful.

Forgive me if this was discussed at some point earlier, but if he starts to have the feelings that he had that led him to justify having an A, what is his plan? Would showing remorse = showing "hey here is my plan on how to deal with feeling we are in a SSM" and have that be a more open, constructive thing?

My H doing that was something that has been invaluably reassuring. And honestly, it's why I believe him. He has made a lot of progress on his personal mental tool kit and we have together as well - and he has taken so much initiative on it. Without that, I'd always be scared that the same factors that occurred would come up and then not be handled differently - it helps me trust him much, much more that there's been a lot of proactive effort on his part in this area.

Would that help you feel like M2.0 is better/stronger/something you get through together - because you both have better tools to handle stuff without hurting the other one, even though it was a painful lesson?

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Hi SamCal,

The remorseful thing is interesting and something I've thought about. Every professional says that the WAS needs to be fully remorseful for healing to happen. Esther Perel says that the involved spouse doesn't necessarily have to be sorry that it happened, though... being truly sorry for hurting the other person is enough. I don't know. I want to at least feel he is authentically glad it is over, grateful I'm still here, 100% invested into M2.0, ready to move heaven and earth to make it happen. I don't feel that to be the case at this point.

That's really great how your H has done so much work on himself in service of your relationship and taken the initiative to do that-- I think that is terrific and I'm sure it does do a lot to help you rebuild the trust. How is it going with him deployed?

With my H, I do see him working on himself. he's been in IC now for a year and a half and I have seen a lot of improvements in how he parents, how he deals with anger, how he's looking internally at some difficult things (beyond the A) and making changes. For instance, he has gone from not really getting what white privilege is and always having a little chip on his shoulder on the topic to really, finally getting it at a cellular level, starting difficult conversations with family members, talking to the girls about BLM, participating in demonstrations, etc.

I think there are a lot of ways that he has become less entitled, more empathetic, outside of his R with me over the past couple of years. (Maybe it was the influence of AP!) Even the way he dealt with me when I was ranting at him on the trip was truly impressive, when I step back. He had far more restraint and compassion for me than I could muster up for him.

I do think that no matter what, we have both improved an enormous amount on communication and are a lot better at communicating difficult things to each other than we were before. That being said, I think we still have a long ways to go and I absolutely would want to work on relationship and communication skills together for M2.0. Also, while I've seen him work on himself, I haven't seen him take the initiative to explicitly work on couples-related skills or anything specifically tied to improving our R, more on improving himself. The only exception would be that a year and a half ago or so, when we were in MC the first time around and read the LL book, he immediately upped his game on acts of service (my primary LL) and has really kept that up this whole time. That's been nice.


Me (46) H (42)
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R talk tonight, started by him (well, he looked all mopey and sad on the couch so I asked are you OK, he said no, and there we went.)

H is scared he will never have "those" feelings for me again (POMMY!!). He is scared he will never stop thinking about/being in love with AP. I asked him if he was back in contact with her and he said no (I asked for his phone later on and he showed it to me, I think he's telling the truth here). I asked him if he wanted to and he said yes.

I've been thinking a lot about what WF and Blu wrote (and Alison and Scout from before the trip). My IC asked me this week to practice inhibiting my empathy in conversations with H. I'd told her about my convo with H where he said he thought he was just a bad person and I said maybe you're a good person who did a bad thing. She said, what would it feel like to just sit there? To say nothing? She thinks it will help me to strengthen my boundaries around not doing his emotional processing for him to practice this.

So. I got the chance to practice this IRL. He said all the same things as he did last week-- he can't forgive himself, he did such a bad thing to me and to our R that he can't see his way back. it really is all just about him. How he feels. Mouthing platitudes about loving me (just not romantically), not wanting to hurt me, not wanting to hurt the girls, but also in truth willing to hurt all of us so that he can f!$k his f!$kbuddy.

He feels he's tried, tried to see if the feelings would come back, they didn't come back on our vacation (surprise!!) and he started to get scared he would never be able to stop thinking about AP. He thinks he's been trying for seven months (never mind the whole "still being in touch" thing.) Actually, he thinks he's been trying for three years. (uh, no.)

I said, OK. If this is what you want, OK. I took off my rings and got out the divorce spreadsheets and walked through them with him. He was horrified at the amount of child support he would have to pay. I also asked for half of his pension, which at first he was upset about but then when I said it was always my/our plan for retirement, he said OK. (We'll see if that sticks.)

I went through the child care plan I'd created (mmmm, just remembering that when I shared that with you guys you were like yeah, May, that isn't a great plan, hard on the kids, lots of transition... I forgot all that when I went through it with him). He was OK with it generally. There is a section where you check off what holidays go with which spouse, odd/even years, etc., and that is the one time he got mad, because I'd checked off mother for Christmas Eve/Day, Halloween, and Thanksgiving. (I told him he could have them for six hours during the day on Christmas Day but I wanted them Christmas Eve and Christmas morning.) This is the only time I cried-- I said I was sorry but when I was going through this paperwork before I couldn't bring myself not to check those boxes. This is not what I want. But I understood that wasn't fair to him and was willing to talk about it some more.

I had written (from June/July) down some of the ideas of what to tell the children. I asked him what he was thinking about what to tell them. He said, Mommy and Daddy love each other very much but we have had problems in our marriage. And we think... then he stopped. I told him the most important thing we needed to tell them was that this was not their fault and that we both love them very much. However, I was not willing to tell them that Mommy and Daddy decided this together. That is not going to happen. He got stuck on what to say and got very emotional. I said, when do you want to tell them? He said, what about tomorrow? I said, I think we need to nail down exactly what we will say, we need to do it together, and then I think we need to have a plan for afterwards so it isn't confusing to them. You need to have a place to go live and be ready to MO. They can't think that maybe this isn't going to really happen or they can change things.

He asked can't we be friends? Can't we spend time together as a family? Can't we still co-own the house? Um, no, no, and no. I told him I've spoken to an L and no matter what I want to get our agreement down on paper sooner rather than later in a post-nuptial, even if we decide to stay M on paper for some period of time.

He is scared of me telling family and friends (especially friends) about him cheating-- he is afraid it will get back to the children. In that case, I said, maybe we need to tell them ourselves. But I'm not lying to my friends to protect you. He said, to protect the children-- it will reflect badly on them if people know. I said, no, it won't.

he got into the I'm not "seeing" him again. I said, holy cr@p. I said, I can tell you are scared and confused. You don't know what to do. He latched on to that super quickly and said "you've never said anything like that to me before." (BS, but I let it go.) He said, can't you look at me and take it as a truth that I'm in love with someone else without just trying to "fix" it? Your only answer is for me to get over her. I said... yeah. Sorry. I don't want to be married to a H who considers himself to be in love with someone else. And so far, from what I've seen, you haven't done anything to really try to get over her. you're just moping around clinging onto both possible paths without actually committing to either one. Make your GD decision and stick to it, then do everything you can to make your best life out of that choice. You're a weak and selfish a-hole. And I don't want to go through this any more.

He asked where he should sleep. I said, in the office. He said, maybe I should get the bed. I said, h3ll naw... that is my bed and I'm sleeping there. (if there has been one thing I've gleaned from all the alpha male talk on this board, the MBR is MINE and I'm not giving an inch on it. F him.) He said, well I want to sleep there too. I said, fine, I don't give a $hit, but I'd really prefer you slept elsewhere. He got all sad. I told him I wanted to call my mom and let her know and also one of my best friends... I think we both know once those two things happen the path to staying together will start to get very, very narrow. He asked for a night to sleep on it and tomorrow to talk to his IC and then we can go from there. I said, fine.

He then said, he's scared if he reaches back out to her that she'll be gone. he thinks if he waits any longer she will be gone forever. I said, better find an apartment fast then.

So, this is where we are. I am OK with it. I am incredibly angry with him and don't feel I will ever forgive him. I still have the burning scary rage when thinking about AP with my children. (I did tell him I was asking for one year of dating post-separation before introducing the kids to a new person, he is definitely not going to go for that but gotta start the negotiations somewhere!! wink )

But I am feeling at peace knowing that I *have* done everything within my power to save this M and give my children a two-parent household. He is making the choice to walk and that is on him, not me. But I also don't think that I want to be married to the person he is anymore. He is just so WEAK. It's sad, really.

So, friends, reinforcement please about how the children are going to be fine, okay?


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may ~

Here is my coping mechanism for dealing with how this affects my kids:

Some kids grow up in war-torn Syria. Some kids are orphans. Some kids have parents who abandon them.

Kids are incredibly resilient. More so than adults.

My relationship with my kids is stronger than ever. It's not easy. I've had really rough times with each of my kids this year. My job, as I see it, is to be a stable parent, and let my kids know I'm always here for them, and they can express ANY emotion they want (including "I hate you, Dad" which I've heard at times).

I think you'll also see there is a lot out of your control. In particular, the messaging to your kids about the D as well as introducing new partners. My XW has subtly coached my S to think that I hurt her feelings and that's why we D'ed. She has introduced a new partner. All of this upsets me, but it's out of my control. I had hoped to have a united front on items related to the kids -- I think it's always worth trying your darnedest to make that happen, but it may not.

I always come back to the same thought: Day to day this is incredibly hard. The more I can be strong, a rock for my kids, and show them I'm always there for them, and not react emotionally, and not talk about their mom negatively or get upset in front of them about the sh*tshow... I am doing right by my kids.

I haven't kept up to date on your thread fully. I'm sorry things have reached this point, but you sound much stronger and self-assured than a few months ago -- in particular with your words and actions.

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Thanks, U. I really appreciate this. I know you've been having a really difficult time with all of this and have been so inspired by your continued focus on your kids and being the best dad you can be.

My kids are good kids and they are going to be okay, but I know it will be really rough going for awhile. I was reading a book on how to talk to children about D and it said that children of "secretly unhappy" low-conflict families fare the worst as adults because of issues with trust and intimacy. But. Nothing I can do about that but be here for my kids and help them through this next phase. He is totally underestimating what this is going to be like.

I know a lot is out of my control, but I think that there is a good chance we could come to some level of agreement of when it would be appropriate to introduce the children to new romantic interests. He agrees that they shouldn't see a parade of people through their lives-- it needs to be someone serious. I know that there are some bargaining chips I have, though, and if I'm being a bit unreasonable at the start on some of these things gives me some room to maneuver later on. And, I'm not being dishonest. I never, ever want that person to be in the same room as my children. I'm being quite authentic even if not mature or detached.

I've been re-reading my threads from June and July. There is great, great advice on there and really relevant to me right now. I'm angry and ready for this to be done. Re-reading my threads, I'm scared that I'll lose the grip on this anger and he'll come back after his IC conversation this afternoon and say oh no he can't do this after all and I'll be back in that same place I was before-- he'll go into his charm mode and I'll fall prey to it again. I just can't keep doing this. I need him out of the house so I can go NC and detach.

I feel strong and ready to be done with this charade, get him out of this house, plan my life without his weak and selfish presence weighing me down. I am probably going to need some encouragement to hold fast.


Me (46) H (42)
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May, I am so proud of you. I gave the biggest sigh of relief reading your post. I’m SO excited for the opportunity you have now to rebuild yourself. You might be alone for a while in the future, but you will learn to be whole again. That is priceless. You’re already in good standing with your settlement plan, budget, custody schedule etc. Get that all iron clad while he is feeling like a sad sausage. He has given you the gift of freedom. Take and it and run!


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Oh, and regarding Christmas. That’s my hill to die on as well. I’ve asked for Christmas Eve/Day until 5pm and X gets Christmas Day/Boxing Day until 5pm. Exact same amount of time at each home with each family, S2 still gets the excitement of going to sleep and waking up to presents in each household, the whole Christmas experience with both parents. But Christmas Day will be with me. I told X way back when he first left that this was my hill to die on and I’ll let many other things go to keep it. I offered him Easter and every other holiday in lieu of Christmas Day. Perhaps you could budge on Halloween and Thanksgiving to keep Christmas if it’s your hill to die on. Just a thought!


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Hi Scout,

Thanks for the good words... I need to keep feeling like I'm feeling right now. He's talking to his IC right now and I'm hoping he comes out of that call with renewed determination to MO. I am very nervous about what happens if this drags on with no-where to go, everyone WFH and distance learning, community still on total lockdown, and he starts f-ing waffling again.

H has no friends here that would invite him to Thanksgiving. All our friends here are my friends. Most of the husbands tolerate him for my sake. Maybe one or two (divorced dads) will continue to be friendly with him but other than that I think he'll find himself pretty lonely, excepting of course he'll be with his True Love, which I'm sure will ease the sting of social rejection.

Our families both live far away and so by D-ing there is likely to be no more traveling to see grandparents for Thanksgiving or Christmases with the split time. H also has been willing to forego Halloween in the past to feed his own interests like fly to a baseball game. He's always complained to me that I (and my mom) put too much emphasis on the day itself for any holidays and has asserted you can celebrate on a different day. He missed our younger daughter's birthday last year for travel (probably to see AP) and spent a different day with her instead (just the two of them, was actually pretty cute).... so I don't think he has a lot to stand on to all of a sudden pretend like he gives a flying F about a given day or not.


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(((May)))

I am so sorry you're here in this place, but there is a small part of me that is celebrating who you are going to become when you are no longer emotionally catering to a bottomless H that is not giving you what you deserve.

And the kids, I totally get it. On my part, I had SO MANY FEARS surrounding the kids and this process. And in actuality, not many of them have come true. They are doing pretty good, all in all. I mean, they don't really want to leave me (I raised them alone for the most part, so this is a big shift for all of us), but after a month of doing it a few nights a week they seem to be adjusting.

One thing I want to put out there before you get too far in your custody conversation with H: don't trap yourself into having the kids all the time, even if you think you want it now. I have found that my alone time is super necessary for me to re-build myself. I am a better mother and certainly healing faster than I was when we were all one sloppy heap of humans struggling together with all these big changes and feelings. I am never alone unless I want to be (friends are always wanting to come over and spend my evenings with me). My down time was a luxury I didn't know existed and I am grateful for it. Also, some time in the future you will want to date and will need those times to have a private life.

In the beginning, I wanted to fight tooth and nail for as much time with the kiddos as possible, but played nice and (surprise, surprise!) I have slowly gotten more and more time with them once H realizes how hard it is to parent solo. So now I am actually having to stand up for my nights off (because I usually have plans, or just need to catch up on life stuff like grocery shopping). So that is always a possibility in your situation.

I know you mentioned in earlier posts that one of your girls is super sensitive. She might be a candidate for thinking it is her fault, so I would keep an eye on that. But you have a new kitten to cuddle (we got cuddly covid pets too and that has been a huge help in this process) and you sound like such a great, sure mom that I know your kids will be fine.

My guiding light in all of this is asking myself if I am being authentic. That my kids need and want authenticity and truth right now. H wanted me to lie to them about this all (we grew apart, we both agreed, we both wanted this) and I categorically refused to feed the children that lie. They have seen me sad and they have seen him bouncing off into the sunset and clearly there is a difference there. They are not stupid. So when they asked him why he wanted to D me, he flew into a rage at me, as if I am feeding them this line (um, I didn't). CHILDREN ARE SMARTER THAN US. So be prepared to answer some hard questions.

You've got this, we've all got your back right now. xxxx

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hi Sage,

I'm really struggling right now. Thinking of my youngest who I think you're right, will definitely think this is her fault. And the oldest will have a lot of blame for one or both of us. Probably both. H asked what I thought of him renting an empty house a few doors down and I told him I thought it would be a really bad idea to be in walking distance, that we were both going to get a lot of "Dad would let me!" or "Mom would let me!" and being in walking distance was asking for trouble. He agreed.

My grandmother passed away several years ago and she left her house to my brothers, me, and my mom equally. My mom had a really hard time parting with the house and so we kept it, one of my brothers lived there (my @sshole H kept complaining that he should pay rent, until I finally told him to shut it, it wasn't his house, it wasn't his money, we didn't need it, and my grandmother would be happy to know that it was helping out my brother.) My brother bought a house a couple of years ago (my mom bought him out so he had the down payment) and we've now been renting it out to one of my brother's friends. I kept trying to convince my mom we should sell it because my other brother and I wanted to use the money to put in our kids 529 accounts. Education was really important to my grandmother and it would mean a lot to her to have those funds to to pay for her great-grandchildren's college, and better to put it somewhere to grow tax-free than locked up in property.

Right before we left on the trip, my mom randomly called me and said the renter wants to buy the house and she wants to accept. I said great. And the money was wired today. And it turns out to be exactly the right amount I need (I think) to buy out my H of this house.

It is just so sad to me. That my grandmother's money that really should be for the kids is all going straight to my stupid cheating lying H so that I can keep this house. The kids' college savings are f-ed. My retirement is cut in half. I'll have to scrimp and save to afford the mortgage on this place.

The authenticity... I think you're right, that is really important to me. When H tried to emotionally manipulate me into kissing his A last night (the way you're talking, I don't know that I want to be married to you anymore... and when I said the only reason I could even contemplate sticking around after all of this would be for the children, when pushed, he said, not because you love me?) I told him, look, I could be nice right now to you and pretend we'll be friends and get what I want. But I am not going to do that. I am not going to lie to you or for you or at all, really. That is all I have right now-- my own values and sense of self. And I'll be g-d-ed if I'm going to compromise that for you.

I'm glad to know you're doing well. I've been thinking of you. xx


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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