I'd going to wade into this good / bad person debate after reading the local paper/ social media last night...
Consequences plays a large part of it in my opinion. Or lack of thought to the consequences from the cheater ..
Some may not be outright evil / bad people, but their judgment is clouded and they think nothing of others - This comes back to the impact of these decisions on other people – and its far reaching.. Its not just the LBS – its kids, its family, social circles, etc .
3 months ago a very popular guy died from the local car club. I didn’t know him, as I only really follow the scene online since having children. A lot of my friends from when I was in the scene knew him and left lovely tributes. No details were released, but I’ll never forget the tributes – this guy was loved by all..
Last night the inquest verdict hit the paper – Death by suicide – He hung himself. His mother released a statement stating that his wife of 8 years had started to voice her unhappiness 2 weeks before, then hit him with the usual lines and she wanted a divorce – He drove to his work place and hung himself – leaving kids behind.
Social media was lit up last night over this, and numerous people stating she ended it because of an affair.
She did not force this poor guy to kill himself, but her actions caused him to flip.
Does this make her a bad person ? – The consequences of her decisions and actions caused another person to end their life.. Leaving children without a father and a grieving mother without a Son.. Ok, she probably didn’t that would happen – but that’s the problem – these WW don’t think about anybody but themselves.
LH hits the nail on the head with his post on manipulation. Its very rare a WW just gives the LBS the truth.. They play games, they lie, they twist it…
Just as it seems rarer to see a walkaway – ive lost track of the amount of people who come here, thinking there is no affair, to then actually read up on stuff, dig and go – “hmmm yeah- WW is cheating”
Its all about self-preservation, selfish needs and getting away with it / getting their affair fix – regardless of the cost – to the kids, LBS, family – or their mental health.
I think the people on this board are fortune – we come here and to a degree, we find answers – probably not the answers we came here for ( ie what can I say to win WW back 99% of the time ), but although we will never understand WW, we understand that we are not alone etc – some people like the poor guy I mention above go to other extremes.
An undeniably bad person would be a rapist, a murderer etc – but at the same time, nobody forced the WW to act in the way they do.. If you don’t want to label them as bad, they are definitely not nice people – they are selfish people acting in a bad way.. and not people who add value to your life..
Indy, you have stated a lot of red flags about your WW – the issues with friends etc.. All bad traits – You don’t think shes bad – well reading in from the outside, she has lied, cheated and manipulated you – argue all you want, but in my eyes, its mental abuse - these are not qualities of a good person – that’s 100% fact..
WELL SAID.
My point to LBSs that refuse to call their cheating, lying, WAS/WS a bad person is that you are holding on to the ideal of who they used to be! I just had this discussion with Cadet and a new comer to the forum. One of the reasons a LBS has find it so hard to NOT believe what their WAS/WS is saying is because "they've always been honest to a fault in the past!" You are not dealing with the past! You are dealing with the present. When you are dealing with someone that is willing to cheat on their spouse, breaking very sacred vows of "forsaking all others" and "til death do us part", the fact that they would lie to you at that point is a foregone conclusion!
But LBSs struggle with this. "She said the A is over, and she has always been truthful before!" So what....this is now, not before and the person they are now is a lying, cheating person. I.E. A BAD PERSON.
I really think if more LBSs faced the fact that the person their WAS/WS has become is NOT a good person, and is in fact a BAD person then DBing would become so much easier for them at that point.
Good people ACT in good ways. Bad people ACT in bad ways. All actions have consequences, both good and bad. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck!
Last edited by Steve85; 09/18/2001:16 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
There are many ways to define what it means to be a good person. One definition of “good” is that you follow the rules — you don’t break the law, commit crimes, lie, or cheat.
Another way to determine who is a good person is to ask others — friends, family members, coworkers — people who know you and can “vouch” for your good qualities and character.
Another, more abstract, way to define goodness is that, at the end of your days, you leave the world a better place — you have done good deeds, saved lives (or souls), raised good children, made others happy, and the list goes on.
An approach that we’ve used in our research on “good” leaders stems from the ancient Greek philosophers and emphasizes character. According to Aristotle, there are four cardinal virtues that determine a person of good character. So, an easy way to get on the path to “goodness” is to practice the four virtues.
Here are the four cardinal virtues, their definitions, and how you can tell if you are leading a virtuous life.
1. Prudence. Another term for prudence is “wisdom,” but it involves being objective and reflective when deciding on courses of action. Prudent individuals learn to avoid making bad decisions. They value and learn from others. To assess how prudent you are, consider this:
•Do you make life decisions by studying information, listening to the advice of trusted friends and relations, and “fact-checking?" •Do you choose courses of action that are based on what you “ought” to do? For example, would your parents approve of your course of action?
2. Temperance. This virtue focuses on moderation — not being too extreme. It involves controlling your passions and not acting out.
•Do you manage your emotions, particularly the “dark” ones (i.e., anger, despair)? •Do you avoid the lure of power, wealth, and do you have good perspective on your own accomplishments (i.e., not have an overinflated ego)?
3. Justice. This virtue deals with being fair and respecting others. •Do you treat others fairly, giving them credit when credit is due? •Do you respect the rights of others? Do you treat others as you would want to be treated?
4. Fortitude (or Courage). This involves having the courage to stand up for what you believe in — to do the right thing. •Do you intervene when you see others being mistreated or abused? •Do you have the courage to take responsibility for your own mistakes and failures? •Do you have a moral compass that you follow and do you have the courage to do what that moral compass tells you to do?
Although our work involves trying to help leaders assess and build their character via the cardinal virtues, these are important for everyone, not just leaders. Moreover, parents should foster these virtues in themselves and in their children. Focusing on these virtues, checking your own behavior, and working to become more virtuous in all areas of life is the key to becoming a good person.
I have moved your previous threads to a safe place.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Been following along with other stich's but decided to take a break from mine to try to get an outsiders perspective.
First off thanks to everyone on here.
So quick update,
Detachment is coming along finally.
I went strict NC for a month.
Eventually I responded after wife told me she had decided she wanted a divorce and wanted to talk about finalizing it. we met for dinner. I said I understand that's her decision and wont fight her on it. We set a date to meet at the courthouse. I was actually fine with this as I have pretty much let go. I would say I'm about 80% detached. ( Uncontested divorce in my state requires both parties be present) She cancels and says she's not ready to get a divorce.
She asks to talk. I agree. She asks if we can try MC. I told her if she can say she is fully recommitted to trying to work on our relationship and she is done with OM then I'm on board.
She says she cant commit to either one of those things and so I say no to marriage counseling.
She then says she does not know what to do or what she wants. So nothing has changed.
Part of me is leaning towards just telling her we need to file. I think her not being able to make those commitments is a decision in itself.
Other part of me is leaning towards going back to NC and giving her more space and time.
Primarily agree with MrB here. But also, IF you actually consider taking her back think long and hard about what you would require. New job, IC on top of MC, dating before move in etc etc Having those requirements set may help you draw the line.
But IMO: no kids + OM = you file
Me: 34 Stbxw: 30 D:5 D:3 Mini bd: May/June 2019 Married: Aug 2019 BD: 6th Dec 2019 OM Confirmed: Feb 2020 March 2020: I filed for D Waiting for D to be finalized and W to move out end of January 2021
I actually tend to agree with you on the plan b/ temp check motive. That's why I wanted to run it by the board.
LH,
Glad you're here. Its not a tactic. I've actually accepted that my marriage is over and am no longer using anything as a tactic. NC for me is because there is nothing to discuss and it helps me. I feel better not talking to her while knowing she is with OM and threw in the towel on our marriage.
Mumin,
I've created things that I would need to take her back. She said no to the first two basics.
- End relationship with OM -Commit to working on our marriage.
