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May I don’t think I am fully in piecing yet either. However, I find this thread really helpful in gauging where we may actually be in the R/P process, as a couple and as individuals.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832573&page=1


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020
Recon #2: since Nov 2020
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This is the article where it put things in perspective for me too. We are reconciling. We aren't piecing yet. And I'm ok with that. I think we both, but me more so than H, needs to know this is going to work. The reality is. He's in. He's all in. He's remorseful and a puppy very much in love. He knows this will work for him. Because who else is going to put up with this sh!t with a smile? No one. He knows and has finally articulated that no one is going to love him the way I do. Which is true. Because let's be real I'm a little bit of a fool for sticking this out. But we're all fools in love. I however need to make sure he can do this. Grow. Change. Work. I'm person of value. Our relationship is important to him. I just have no idea if I can sign up for forever yet. I'm hoping in the next couple of months I'll know. But we'll see.

You're a person of value to your H. The relationship has always been important that's why he didn't want to let it go. But other posters are right. Now is your time to decide if this is going to work for you or not. And you can't look at like you're willing giving up your kids 50% of the time. You have to look at it from the perspective that you and daddy gave it all you could to make this work, but neither of you could love each other the way you deserve, but you both love the girls so much. So, so much that you didn't want them to live where there just wasn't enough love. They need to learn what really being loved looks like. But that's 5 steps ahead here.

Just slow down and remember the ball is in your court now. You control this situation.

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Pommy, that thread was super helpful-- thank you for sharing it. I feel like I got scared off of the piecing thread from that first post which is like give it a few weeks... then a few months... then maybe, just maybe you can begin to imagine yourself piecing... or whatever. But reading through it and realizing, again, that my H is on his own journey and it is not the same as mine, that he's really now only been NC with AP for a month now, he needs to detox and it would be ridiculous for me to expect him to be further along the path than he is.

Wayfarer, I know exactly what you mean about needing to know it is going to work before being able to really commit to the work of piecing. I feel the same way. It is a bit of a catch-22-- I can't be in this until I feel that he's 100% in it, that AP is burnt out of his head and he wants me and our M more than anything and is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve that.

And yet I feel like this weird pressure to "reconnect" since that is what he says he wants and I don't want him to judge our R by what we have right now, which is basically like friends/partners though I know I'm still going cold or throwing mini anger bombs every once in awhile. And I feel some fears about the last time around, where I was much more relaxed and not angry (or had shoved that anger down so far that it wasn't really surfacing yet) and we were having a lot of fun together through the whole lockdown phase... only to get that next BD thrown at me after four months of what I thought was R and maybe tiptoeing into piecing.

It's like, last time I was relaxed and optimistic and trusting and we reconnected up the wazoo, or so I thought... and yet that didn't work. This time I'm much more guarded and angry and less interested in putting myself out there until he's demonstrated he's committed. I feel like he wants what I gave him freely last time, and yet (a) that didn't work and (b) I just really can't/don't want to right now. Does that make sense? I think not worrying about him and where his head is and refocusing on me like you are all saying (thank you!) is really the only non-disastrous path for me at the moment.

For you, WF, though... gently... how will you know if you don't try? You've gone through so much and it feels a little like you might not want to start piecing until you know know know 1000% that M2.0 is yours for the taking. From one control freak to another, respectfully... you don't need to sign up for forever to try to piece with your H. It isn't going to go how you thought it would and it won't be a straight line, just like none of this has been a straight line. If you wait for perfect it may never come. There won't be a nice list of tasks to check off in a timely fashion to get to point B. It will be messy and hard and only half under your control-- he's gotta do his own work. I think? you should let him. xoxoxo


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
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9/20 - present: R and piecing
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So, we're home.

All in all, the trip was good for me. We had some amazing experiences as a family. I was able to disconnect from work, relax, take a bit of a break from the COVID monotony of being at home, although of course we were still safe and masked and everything else on the trip... it was just nice to be able to be in different places and be outside without a lot of people. Kids had a blast.

H and I... so-so. IDK. We worked well together as co-parents and vacation managers. We made good joint decisions, had fun together, no fights about dumb stuff. Of course you all know about my anger management issues. I had a hard time letting go and having fun at times, but as the trip wore on I was able to take a break and deal with my anger on my own without being abusive towards H. (Unless you count the occasional snippy comment as abusive... though I know I should not be doing those either.)

Originally Posted by Sage
Your H is showing a lot of good signs from an outsider's perspective: accepting your rages without self-pity, acknowledging your fears, acknowledging the past, owning the trauma he has caused and most importantly, just showing up each day for you as a family. These are all such good first steps.

This is true. He did all these things. I'm having a hard time accepting them as where we are right now and being OK without knowing where we're headed. Because on the other hand, he isn't fully remorseful, he hasn't said he WANTS to fall back in love with me a la Pommy's H. I feel like intentionality is such an important thing and I don't feel that is there, right now, with my H.

We had a few R talks near the end and again last night. The upshot is:

- he feels the trip was positive and we did well together

- he feels like things are less about AP and whether or not he wants to be with her, more about us and what may/may not work between us (this he said on the trip near the end)

- he doesn't feel the intensity of the feelings towards AP that he has when they're in communication, but he still thinks about her and has feelings towards her.

- he is worried he'll never be able to feel that way towards me again

- he doesn't know if he'll ever be able to forgive himself for what he did to me. Last night he really apologized for the A, said it was wrong, I didn't deserve it, etc etc. It felt very sincere and untainted by any excuses about the SSM or anything. This isn't the first time he said it, but often I feel the unspoken "but the SSM!!" even if he doesn't say the words... this time he explicitly said even though he felt there were reasons that led him there, it was wrong.

- He said he's worried that what he did was so bad that he will never be able to forgive himself, even if I can forgive him. He thinks about himself as a bad person for doing this. He never thought he was the kind of person who would cheat, especially to this degree... and yet he did. What does that mean about him as a person? What does it mean for the future of our R? I asked him what would happen if he tweaked that statement-- that he isn't a bad person, but a good person who did a bad thing-- that is what I thought, at least. He got a little emotional.

- it is really important to him that I understand that he didn't do this against me, that he loves me, never stopped, just stopped being "in love" with me. It bothers him that I feel like every interaction, every family trip, every date night we had was tainted because of his R with her. I said I believed him but it didn't make things any better. He said he really compartmentalized everything and it was more like he was living two lives than she was contaminating ours. (contaminating is my word)

- for some reason (I don't get this) he thinks that learning to live with what he did and forgiving himself would be harder if we stay M than if we don't. That his IC has a flexible view on M and if he thinks about maybe people aren't meant to spend their whole lives with one person that somehow relieves his guilt. I don't get this at all. I said, people out there might think that and you might think that now. But we didn't think that when we got married. We made a compact with each other and what you did broke that. That doesn't change no matter what happens in the future. He acknowledged this.

- he thinks I have a singular goal in mind-- M2.0-- and that I'm treating him as though he came crawling back on his hands and knees and he didn't. He acknowledges that he knows I want/wanted him to do this and he didn't, and that doesn't feel good. But somehow I'm coming across to him as though he did come crawling back and that is bothering him. I don't know exactly how to deal with this because I don't think that. Thoughts?

-- he doesn't think I "see" him as a person, that I only see the idealized version of him. This really, really bothers him. He wants me to see him for who he is, what he's done, and how he feels. I'm having a hard time with this. I feel I do see him and am empathetic to what he's going through (more, I know, than some of you think I should be). I don't want to talk about AP and his feelings towards her. I said, I'm willing to listen and talk about anything, just not that one thing. Are you 100% made up of your feelings for her? He said no and he couldn't explain to me what it would mean for me to "see" him. He asked what if I could think about a positive future where we were D and still friends? I feel so uncomfortable talking about this with him-- it is a boundary for me-- so I didn't engage.

-- he is freaked out by the idea that I want to be M to him and have M2.0 with him but that if we were to D I would hate him forever. How can he be married to someone like that? How could I say I love him but be ready to burn him down if he were to leave? We talked about this a bit-- I said that I was also struggling with the bad person/flawed human being who made a mistake narrative for him, as well, and that TBH the bad person narrative was a lot easier and I was pretty sure that was where I'd fall if we split under these circumstances. I emphasized though, that I wouldn't hate him, I wouldn't do anything to get between him and the children, that I just didn't want to be friends with him under those circumstances. He tried to push me on this more (Why?? why couldn't we be friends??) and I didn't engage.

- I said to him that last time around, he told me after the fact that he never really let go of the idea that he'd end up with AP in his head. Was that different this time? Did he WANT to forget about her? He hemmed and hawed and tried to talk in circles a little on this (well, logically, I won't ever forget about her, you won't either, blah blah) but when we got down to it he doesn't know. He isn't sure he CAN forget about her and I don't think he's actively trying. He said the best thing that could happen was he called her up and either she said "I'm over you, goodbye" or he realized after talking to her that he was over her. But he isn't going to do that because he also realizes the potential danger of flaming back up like last time. I said, you know, if I felt like we were on the same team about this-- that you honestly wanted to get over her and on with our lives, that I *could* talk about this with you without feeling angry or jealous (this was another thing he'd felt like if I could talk about her without demonizing her, understand his feelings without letting my emotions get into the picture, that somehow that would help me to "see" him in a way I'm not right now).

Anyway. The good part was that we didn't fight, I didn't get angry, we just talked and then went to bed at a normal hour. I woke up in the middle of the night to him spooning me (first time this has happened in a loooooooong time, unless you count the middle of the night sexcapades). Then he woke up and moved away.

I read through what I have just written and so much of it feels like something I could have written months ago. I believe that he is not in contact with her and that he doesn't intend to. Pommy, if you're reading here, I have been thinking about your sitch and our similarities/differences a lot-- I really wish my H would do what yours has, which is say that he wants M2.0 with you, just is worried he can't get there. What I want is to feel like we're a team on this, working towards a shared goal, but he doesn't work like this. He is more of a take things as they come kind of person-- so he wants to just see what happens, can he get over her, can he fall back in love, or not. (He doesn't want to do anything that feels contrived or forced since his FEELINGS are so GD important.)

For whatever reason, that shift feels really meaningful to me, and I never got it during the first go-round and we definitely don't have it now. A big part of me feels like this is just not worth it to keep trying. That he'll never stop tending this stupid flame/ fantasy and I'm setting myself up for grief in the future. The other side of me says his timeline is long, I'm in this for the long game, I need to give him time and space and probably stop being a b*tch about his A for awhile. I'm just tired.

Sorry for the long post, guys. I feel confused and anxious. I know part of it is the post-vacation low. I also gained TEN POUNDS which is really pretty sad, have been eating like $hit, no exercise, no yoga. My community is on total lockdown and kids started distance learning yesterday. I need to haul myself back into a healthy routine again. And... we are getting two kittens this afternoon!! smile smile smile

So... any thoughts on the "I don't SEE him" stuff? Clearly I need to work on my validation but I'm just confused. I really don't want to go down the road of being his emotional support system for his feelings about the AP. I feel like I took all that garbage once and I don't need to do it twice. Maybe he doesn't believe that I see his struggles, fears, etc? That I think his feelings around AP are invalid and wrong, therefore he just needs to get over it and with the program? I'm having a hard time with this one. Also the idea that I'm treating him like he came crawling back but he didn't. I feel like I need to be back in full DB mode right now.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Welcome home, May! And thanks for the update, I have been thinking of you and wondering how the transition back to the 'real world' (Covid-style) was going for you! xx

I have some random thoughts, in no particular order:

-I think it is good that H is being so GD honest with you. Some of the things he said reflect the depth of his self-awareness, for better or for worse. He is looking at himself with honest eyes and questioning your M from a very wise place. You don't have to like it, BTW. But it is a positive reflection on him at the moment, from outsider eyes.

-Your H is afraid. He is using himself as a proxy for what he believes you are capable or incapable of forgiving in him. If he shares the darkest, deepest, most vulnerable part of himself to you, then you may take one look and run, making his choice easy (it's really all about him and always has been, as you know). Or not. But he is afraid of all the outcomes right now because he can't face the reflection of himself in your eyes (see that clever line you shared with me showing up here? x)

- This isn't about you. It never has been. I see glimmers of you realizing that in your update. But just want to hammer the nail home here.

- YOU are in the power seat right now. It's still too scary for you to own and recognize. Those darling girls of yours, and the fun you had on vacation, and your hopes for a positive outcome are all claiming a higher seat at your table than they should. But I truly believe that if you drop the F-ing rope, move on 'as if' and truly detach from the situation, the outcome will be so much better for you and your girls. OWN that power-- strong, smart, powerful, beautiful, wise May.

- All the R talks you have been having are super heavy. Which I understand (because bring them on, Baby Daddy! Smart, analytical, emotionally-wise women like us need them!). But what if you took a pause? Not necessarily in the R talks, but more in your self-knowledge that no matter what conversations you have today, no matter what you do today, things will be different in 6 months. Can you let that analytical scientist woman go for a moment in the name of self-preservation and just let things BE? Because I believe that whatever hand you play-- the heavy one that orchestrates the Nutcracker symphony or the one that sits on the beach with nothing more to do than relax and smile at your girls play in the waves, things will be different in 6 months. Can you live your way to your answer instead of spending the next 6 months analyzing the outcome? And I mean in your day-to-day life with H, not in your analysis here, which is a necessary outlet that we all need and welcome. Can you press the pause button, look H in the eye and say with genuinity 'I just want to be the best we can be right now, do the best we can do right now, and make the big decisions when we need to? Let's just BE for a while, H, it has been a tough road for all of us.'

Huge hugs, May. You are doing great. xxxx

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Originally Posted by may
he isn't fully remorseful, he hasn't said he WANTS to fall back in love with me a la Pommy's H. I feel like intentionality is such an important thing and I don't feel that is there, right now, with my H.

Originally Posted by may
Last night he really apologized for the A, said it was wrong, I didn't deserve it, etc etc. It felt very sincere and untainted by any excuses about the SSM or anything.
Can I gently ask, what does 'fully remorseful' look like for you May? Is it something he says, or does? Does it need to happen once, or many times over? I'm just wondering what you need to see/hear in order to get to a place where you feel he is remorseful. Have you talked this through with him? 'Fully remorseful' may look different for both of you perhaps.
Originally Posted by may
Pommy, if you're reading here, I have been thinking about your sitch and our similarities/differences a lot-- I really wish my H would do what yours has, which is say that he wants M2.0 with you, just is worried he can't get there. What I want is to feel like we're a team on this, working towards a shared goal, but he doesn't work like this. He is more of a take things as they come kind of person-- so he wants to just see what happens, can he get over her, can he fall back in love, or not. (He doesn't want to do anything that feels contrived or forced since his FEELINGS are so GD important.)

I agree with Sage, he is scared. Scared of making a wrong move. My H was in that same place. I also think my H said he wanted M2.0 before he realised that uh-oh, there are feelings missing and he might not get there. If you recall - and H admits this - he very much reacted to his emotions at the time, and everything he said at that time (wanted to come back, was in love with me, wanted to grow old with me) was how he felt at that time. He hasn't back-tracked on saying he wants to try but equally we have still recently had conversations about S/D and not knowing what is best for us. Your H could be processing things in a different order to my H (he sounds way more level-headed and methodical, whereas my H can be very reactive and impulsive). Actions speak louder than words. I know now that I should've taken my H's words with a pinch of sal.
Originally Posted by may
For whatever reason, that shift feels really meaningful to me, and I never got it during the first go-round and we definitely don't have it now. A big part of me feels like this is just not worth it to keep trying. That he'll never stop tending this stupid flame/ fantasy and I'm setting myself up for grief in the future. The other side of me says his timeline is long, I'm in this for the long game, I need to give him time and space and probably stop being a b*tch about his A for awhile. I'm just tired.
I hear you on this. Just a thought - do you think H is seeing what you are feeling? That you don't know if this is worth it? What place does that put H in - I don't know if May might leave me so maybe I don't want to take the risk of committing to her (or foregoing AP). Do you think you are feeding off each other's fears and that this is causing a blockage?

Sending hugs May - you are incredibly strong xx


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
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I very much want to be optimistic and zen the way Sage is being about this but the things you're saying are inciting varying levels of rage in me. So I'm going to start with the things I can be level headed and zen about. The one, and only point I can unequivocally and wholly agree upon with your H is you have to get to place where you aren't demonizing AP and looking at parts of your family life and memories as if they are tainted and dripping with her essence because of the choices H made. I just think about the Hamilton thing and it breaks my heart to think you've allowed H's horrible choices to taint something that special for you and the girls.

The luxury of H having an AP that lives thousands of miles away is that he literally could compartmentalize. Clearly he wasn't doing a great job of it based on how you describe your relationship and his behaviors at the time. But to him he was keeping those two things separate. I can say coming from the place of a WW those two pieces of my life were very separate.. As much of a mess as my exH was I did love him. But I was miserable and empty because he couldn't love me the way I loved him. He couldn't love anyone, including himself. So I was in a hollow place mostly of my own doing. With a sprinkle of his poor life choices. When I was with my AP it wasn't because I hated my exH. Or because I loved him less. But because I was in so much pain, I was wallowing in so much sadness and anger. And AP just washed all of that from me. I could go home and be a better mother 100% and a better wife 50% because he was feeding needs I couldn't have met else where. The problem was I wasn't working to meet the needs I should've been fulfilling on my own. Which in the end I figured out that that was the biggest issue not H or my MR. I was in my own way. Your H seems to be getting here in that understand. Slower than molasses. But creeping along in the right direction.

Which brings me to the rage portion. Your H has these insane expectations that not only are you not allowed to control any aspect of this reconciliation but that you are also fully and completely responsible for his emotional well being and his healing through out this process. Which I won't go full bore and say it's sick, but it's effing co-dependent and horribly unhealthy. It's not your job to make him feel better about what he did. It's not your job to show him how to forgive himself. It's not your job figure out if he'll "ever feel that way about you again." It's not your job to dissect his affair with him or for him. It's not your job to make him feel in control in this process. It is incredibly unfair of him to make you feel like you are some how stealing power here by hoping that he would've come back crawling on his hands and knees. You know how I feel about this. I don't think it's a very fair expectation of any LBS, but I also don't think it's something way out of left field to want either. And frankly if he can't deal with the fact that you've accepted you have just as much power here to pull the plug as he does and he sees that as a control thing THAT'S ON HIM. He's been in control of the direction of this relationship for 2+ years. The fact that you have a tiny amount of control back here and that's a little scary for him is beyond crazy pants.

So as to the you seeing him. Sure you could probably put away the rage glasses. See him as a flawed imperfect human being. A beautiful work in progress. But I think the question is, is he seeing you in that way? Is he seeing you as a flawed imperfect human? A work in progress? Why are you always being asked to bend to the point of breaking while he's always waiting to see if he's willing to lean a little to the left to accomodate you? Can he appreciate where you guys are at with out putting so much d@mn pressure on you? How can you relieve the pressure on him if he can't reciprocate? This is point in which we are supposed to be finding our balance in our relationships again. This is the point in which we are both supposed to forgive and heal. We are supposed to both have open minds and hearts. We are supposed to be carrying the weight of this MR together to see if we can make it down this road for the long haul. So we can ignore the weight of it all some times and just enjoy each other together. Yes, his timeline may be slower than yours. But there's a level of accountability here that he seems to just be ignoring. At what point is he going to start putting in the work to heal himself? If he wants to be seen, IMHO he needs to start working a littler harder at seeing.

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Wayfarer, this is absolutely brilliant, and I’m going to read it over a few more times myself to further digest! You so eloquently described some thoughts I was having that I couldn’t form into any meaningful words. Your analysis is incredible.

May, I’ve been checking on you and following along. I’m relieved that he has finally ended things with AP, that he wants back in the M, and that the vacation was a success. I see these positives and feel glimmers of hope for your M. At times he seems so open to you and a future with your family together. I also know I cannot compare him to my H, the man that did “come crawling back” and very much knew that we both needed that. And I wonder when your H says to you that it would be easier to part ways and remain friends (versus reconcile) is an admission that he feels he is not cut out for that deeper exploration of himself and something very painful. It’s very difficult to accept such wrong doing and own it because then he has to explore why he did it and what kind of person he is to do that. That’s painful.

He articulates that he knows he was wrong and unfair to you. But it seems he still lacks a deep feeling of remorse and desire to understand your perspective. It’s almost as if he is finding some safety in keeping you under his thumb or at some distance. I agree this is less about you and the M and more about his internal struggles. He’s just not ready to do the hard work yet. Will he ever be? I sincerely hope so. I don’t know him. I do know that this all takes such a loooonnnggg time. My H and I have been back together for about 5.5 years and I think we are finally getting there. Each year was different and presented unforeseen challenges.

Sometimes it’s better to do as stated above and stop analyzing everything, gibe yourself a break and just live. It’s okay to let go and just simply be for a day or a week here and there.

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Hi guys,

You have given me a lot to think about. I'm reflecting on portions and will come back to respond to other things. In the meantime, a few things stood out to me...

Wayfarer, I think he does really have co-dependency issues. Like, serious ones. He said to me in the depths of all this that AP needs him and I don't. That I've never needed anyone that way and he needs to be needed. (Said totally without irony... no clue that this is generally not considered to be a positive thing.) She knows how to show him how much she loves him and needs him and he doesn't believe I truly love him, I think because... IDK? I don't go gaga over his every word? I honestly *would* be OK if he left, even though it isn't what I want? That there are more important things in life than him, like our children? Whereas AP was saying things that were vaguely suicidal about how bleak life was without him in the four months they were out of touch in the spring. She told him he was her "chosen family" (which irritates me wildly).

Here's the thing. It is like he *thinks* co-dependency is so great and all, but IRL he would f-ing HATE it. He has always gotten annoyed with me if I ever do anything that comes across as faintly helpless. I'm sure it feels good and feeds his enormous ego in small doses, but I really don't think that is what he wants. (But of course, I don't "see" him, so maybe I don't know.) He told me his IC had said some things along the lines of the danger signals AP was giving out in July, like the dependency on him for her happiness. He said to me that her issues were from her childhood and therefore legit, somehow, and he shouldn't dump her because of them, went on this whole thing about mental illness vs physical illness, where is the line between who you are and what your mental issues might cause you to do or not (familiar, CWarrior?), that you wouldn't dump someone for a physical illness, why would you dump them for a mental one? And yet, the SSM and my low desire were cause for him leaving me (potentially) and her dependency issues were something to work through. And zero reflection on what this all means for himself, internally.

Anyway... I'm not sure I clarified anything here, probably caused more of you guys to be like OMG May, what a loser! WTF are you standing for? wink

I'm not sure that he wants me to help him figure out if he'll ever feel this way again... upon more reflection, I think he wants me to give him some space (as you're recommending, Sage) to see what happens. His way is the let's just muddle our way forward and see what happens naturally, whereas my way would be more research and methods and thought stoppage when AP thoughts come up, for both of us, all with a shared goal in mind.

To be honest, I'm not sure how much of his emotional healing he's actually putting on me vs me trying to solution for him. I know he thinks it is the latter and he is really pushing back against that idea. And on my end, me even saying what would be helpful for me to hear him say is me "putting words in his mouth." But I do very much get the sense that he's looking for something from me that I am not giving to him, and I don't know what magic sauce that is or if I would even want to or be able to give it to him if I figured out what it was. I'm really gun shy about just relaxing and letting things go, since that is what we did in the spring and it culminated in his relapse. Are things different this time? Different enough for me to be able to live in the moment and stop analyzing everything? I don't know. Truly. I need to spend more time on this. At the end of this, if it doesn't work, I just so much want to be able to say I tried absolutely everything and feel secure in that knowledge in my heart.

On the idea of me being equally able to pull the plug and his feelings around that... I'm not sure if it is at all clear cut. On one hand, he firmly believes that I will never say that we tried enough. He thinks I'll keep fighting or saying we didn't try everything or whatever no matter if we try for six months or six years. I don't think that is true, but there is some truth to it, in that I'll be annoyed if we just keep cruising along, not really dealing with anything, and then in four more months he decides he can't get those feelings back even after "trying" for so long and bails.

Pommy, your question-- does he sense i'm thinking whether this is worth it or not and that is causing some issues-- that got me thinking and I actually think that even though his mouth is saying the above-- he thinks he's stuck with me no matter what-- I do think he gets really anxious when I say things about not being happy and not being sure this is all worthwhile. He told me the other night every time I make some little comment that makes him realize I'm unhappy or thinking about the A that he spirals and it "isn't positive" for me getting what I want (i.e. him back in the saddle). Whereas I'm not really comfortable at this point stuffing down my anger any more and feel it is important for him to acknowledge at least some amount of my suffering to date. If I were a real pro I guess that wouldn't be necessary and I should work on that not mattering to me... but it still does.

Sage, I hear you on the six months thing. I actually was thinking about that idea last night. That if he'd only been stronger we'd have been past the six months point now. He has said a bunch of times that it is unfair for me to say we are back to ground zero in terms of R because of his reestablishing contact with AP... I guess I agree that we've made some progress between the two of us, but in terms of him "getting over" her, letting go, whatever, from all I understand we basically reset the clock to five weeks now NC, not since January. I was thinking, though, about the letter I put in his Christmas ornament box. And maybe that should be a time point for me... that if we get through the holidays and are still together, and I feel like it is necessary to again pack his stuff separately and put another letter inside... maybe that should be a signal to me that enough is enough. Not quite six months, but not too far either.

On him being afraid, how I define remorse, bleaching AP out of my memories so that I can once again enjoy them without her cropping up, whether or not he sees me... will respond more later.

I really heart you all. And also, the kittens are SO. RIDICULOUSLY. CUTE. Kids are in absolute heaven and it is giving me something to focus on beyond all the various things that have been taking over my life. One managed to take a $hit under our bed in the middle of the night last night, which was not fun or cool, but then she made it up to me with hours of snuggling. Sigh.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
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may22 Offline OP
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Blu, I missed your post earlier... I think I must have been writing at the same time.

Originally Posted by BluWave
And I wonder when your H says to you that it would be easier to part ways and remain friends (versus reconcile) is an admission that he feels he is not cut out for that deeper exploration of himself and something very painful. It’s very difficult to accept such wrong doing and own it because then he has to explore why he did it and what kind of person he is to do that. That’s painful.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, though obviously I'm hoping he does have the strength to do it. He has said a number of times in different ways to me that it is hard for him to face my pain because he knows he caused it. He is really uncomfortable with all of this. I feel he partially thinks it is easier to just slap on a label of "I'm a bad person" and be OK with that than really understand what it means that he did it and how to make amends. How to reconcile his own image in his head of himself with his own actions. All so much easier when you have things to lean on, like he was forced into it because of the SSM, or it was True Love with AP and therefore wrong not to pursue, I never really loved him anyway, etc.

I think you are all right in that I'm starting to realize more and more that this is all about him, not me, and he'll either have what it takes to face his own actions and make amends, or not. I do think there is some positivity in the fact that he's acknowledging it. I don't know. He has gotten through some really, incredibly difficult things in his life (with me at his side, ahem ahem) and the depth of his own internal strength, and willingness to gut through all the hardest parts with a good attitude is part of the reason I fell in love with him. In fact, it was how I knew that he was "the one" back when we were dating. But... those were things done to him, not by him, and he wasn't the bad guy. Now he is facing a situation that he caused.

He told me the other night that the minute he slept with her he assumed his M to me was over, because as soon as I found out I'd kick him to the curb and that would be it. So he spent time grieving our M (before I even knew we were in trouble) and coming to terms with the fact that we would get D. Yet he couldn't pull the trigger on his end and took a year and a half to even tell me he had an "emotional connection" to another person.

Also before, I think he didn't see (or refused to see) that there was a path to R with me, one that involved a lot of hard personal work and that involved him needing to reconcile his behaviors with his own self-image. He was too invested in the other path, where he wasn't really responsible because of the SSM and True Love and the idea that our R was unfixable so no use in trying-- a story he'd been burnishing for a good two years.

Sometimes, seeing how invested he is in his own narrative, I wonder what stories I am telling myself to get me through this space.

Pommy, fully remorseful-- he's sorry for hurting me, he's sorry for doing wrong... but what he hasn't articulated-- I think because he doesn't feel it-- is that he's sorry for having a relationship with her. I don't think he is. I think he feels he was in a bad place and his A was life-giving to him. He isn't sorry for knowing her or having a relationship with her, I don't think-- sorry for lying, sorry for the aspects of it that hurt me, sorry for breaking my trust and all that, but not actually sorry that it happened. Like if he could go back in time, what would he do differently? Would he walk away and come home and tell me hey, our M is in trouble and we need help? I truly don't know, where he is right now, that he wishes he had done that. I think he might wish he had had the b@lls to come home and ask for a D before he did anything "wrong."

Of course, neither of us could go back in time and I partially feel like it is a waste of time thinking this way. That what happened happened and we deal with it now one way or another. And I do feel like in the end, I'd rather feel like the A was something that we got through together and our M2.0 is stronger and better because of it, not a huge horrible mistake my H made that I munificently forgave him for. But that would be so much easier if I felt like he thought to himself, dang, I sure missed a bullet with that one. Not, dang, if only things were different maybe I could be living my fantasy life right now.

Sage, Pommy... is he scared? Yes. Pommy, definitely scared of making the wrong move. Sage, I don't know that he has that vulnerability that you describe... maybe. Maybe he just wants me to see that he doesn't love me anymore and wants to just be friends. It is all really complicated and TBH I'm getting a little exhausted trying to parse out his intentions and thoughts from his behaviors while trying to keep a grip on my own anger and sanity and a smile on my face so he doesn't freak out. I see what Wayfinder means about me doing all the work right now and how unfair that is.

And WF... I don't really think he sees me, right now. He sees me more than he did before. Right before our trip we had a conversation where I cried and he said he felt I was being more open and vulnerable to him than I ever had. One of his big complaints through all of this is that he feels I have kept all these secrets from him especially around sex, that I've never really let him in. I don't really feel like opening up to him in that way right now... and I don't know that he thinks all of this is as hard on me as it really is, since I don't express it to him, really. And of course he could make an actual effort to see me and understand what it is I'm going through. I don't think he's doing that. I don't know if he has the capacity, right now.

I will take all of your advice and give this analysis and planning and worrying a rest. Will just enjoy my kids and the kittens and try to not let a reduced focus on the sad state of my MR just allow me to expand my worries about everything else in the world that is going on right now. Sage, I'll try to see if I can say that to H... let's just *be* for awhile and not worry so much about what might or might not come next.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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