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Originally Posted by Pommy99
I said to him that I was finding the uncertainty difficult. His response is that he cant make any promises but he wants to try. That doesn't make me feel so great as it seems very non-committal. I raised this in MC, and said that when two people get married it's not a case of 'I cant promise we'll stay together but I'll try'. When you take your marriage vows you make a commitment to each other with the intention of staying together. Am I wrong? Am I asking for too much too soon? Is it just semantics? H said in the session that he is committed, but he can't control his feelings, and therefore there is no guarantee that this is going to work out.

Hi Pommy,

This resonates so much with me. My H has said these EXACT same words, both in round one and now. (Honestly. It blows my mind how there is a playbook for all of this and it feels like they're getting their lines from it.) And, I have had the exact same reaction as you... it doesn't feel like enough. We have had many talks both in MC and out about this issue. I'll share some thoughts for you to leave or take:

-- first, it was such a weird experience to read what your H is saying and thinking yes! mine says the same thing! I think the same thing! And then to read LH's response to say "he is being open and honest with you"... that really took me aback and made me think. Just a reflection. I think LH is right. It is way better for him to say this to you than for him to think it but verbally say "I am in for good"... it is probably hard for him to say this because he knows what you want to hear and this isn't exactly it.

-- My H has also been on the marriage vow thing-- he feels like the second we took those vows I started taking him/our R for granted. Which has some truth to it (really more once we had kids though, not once we got M). I do think that M is for better or worse and when you make those vows you're committing to the long run through the BS. You don't get to run when it gets hard. But maybe... and I'm talking to myself on this too... when you are starting M 2.0, you have to take as a starting point that M 1.0 is over. Gone. Forever. And you're working on seeing if you can build an M2.0 that is worthwhile. So you probably aren't at a place yet where you can both definitively say yes, I'm in M2.0 for the long haul. You are still dating.

-- I think intentions are important and it is good that your H is being explicit that his intention is to make M2.0 work. I prefer to be optimistic about all this and feel that you can do whatever you really set your mind to, so if his intention is to rebuild a full and passionate M with you, he will. It will take time and all that but you'll get there. That being said, it is also true what LH said about what happens if the feelings don't come back (my H has said all this too)-- that you deserve a H who can love you passionately and you don't want him to stick around just because he made those vows xx years ago. My feeling on this is, cross that bridge when you come to it. Right now, you don't know if his feelings will come back or not. You don't know what M2.0 is going to look like but you have the opportunity to think it out and build it together. These things don't happen overnight and try not to get ahead of yourself (I'm telling myself this too). One step at a time. Your H is there. He is trying. He has cut it off with EAP. He is being open and honest with you about his feelings and his intentions and his fears. That is all really positive. Take it for what it is and try to focus on the now for yourself as well.

-- I think there are a lot of positives in your sitch as compared to mine so I wouldn't take my H's behavior too much into account... my H was in WAAAAY deeper with his AP than yours, he'd built out this entire fantasy life with her, and I think the pull of that (plus her explicit outreach) is a lot harder to overcome than what your H is dealing with. Your H actually left and knows what that is like and doesn't want to go back to it. The things your H is saying about feeling physically ill of the thought of the betrayal against you is big, I think. I don't think my H is ready to even wrap his head around that part yet.

-- re the emotional intimacy blocking and your H's reaction-- I think what your MC is prescribing is the standard, build it back up with non-sexual touching, etc-- but I'm also wondering if there are 180s you can think about that would start a whole new paradigm for you guys when you get there. Are there things you can open up to him emotionally about that don't involve your M or his behavior? Have you opened up to him about how you feel about your mom? Feeling like you're on the same team is important and maybe this is an area where you can really validate if it has been a problem in the past. I have some similar but much less severe issues with my mom and between my mom and my H. I used to get really defensive of her, though, and didn't want to say anything negative about her to my H because I worried it would further exacerbate the situation between them. But more recently I've been open with my H when my mom has frustrated me and how it makes me feel and instead of jumping on the bandwagon, he's validated and been super nice about it and I've felt a lot closer to him after rather than more distant as in the past. I'm just wondering if there are other ways you can work on your emotional closeness/ vulnerability without getting into an R talk every time.

-- re the rings... we decided to put our rings back on for this trip and TBH I am really, really glad we did. My H takes his off all the time for surfing, yoga, etc and so he has a lot of opportunities to choose to put it back on again or not. A couple of weeks into the renewed limbo he didn't put it back on after surfing one day, and I took mine off to go to the beach and chose not to put them back on either. The night before the trip we talked-- I asked if we were going to wear our rings for the trip, he said it was up to me, I thought about it (I had been thinking I wanted it to be symbolic when we put our rings back on)... and then said, yes, let's do it. And whether it means the same thing to him that it does to me, seeing it on his finger really does help me chill out when I'm getting anxious or upset. It is a symbol of his intention to work on our M, even if it isn't a symbol right now of our undying love and commitment to each other. So maybe putting your rings back on doesn't need to be a big meaningful thing, right now, but could help you guys both remember that you're in this together? IDK, I know it is different because your H did actually leave. Just sharing from my perspective on this.

Hang in there, Pommy. I could use more patience too. Deep breaths. I think it was Unchien who long, long ago mentioned the Frozen 2 song "do the next right thing" and I've been thinking on it. We watched the making of documentary and Kirsten Bell talks about her depression and this song being really meaningful to her-- when she was really depressed would just think OK. Need to get out of bed. Check. Now get the kids up. Check. And so forth... so I've been thinking on this too. What is the next right thing? No need to plan out and know everything. Just the next right thing. xoxo M


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Originally Posted by LH19
PM99,

You are in a great position right now that just about everyone on the board would love to be in where I truly believe your husband wants to start a marriage 2.0. I will give you some feedback.
With your worldy knowledge and experience, I truly want to believe that is what you see from the outside....thank you, it makes me feel a lot better smile

Originally Posted by LH
Originally Posted by Pommy99
The last few days has been up and down - H has been distant, which makes me distant, and then we feed off each other's negative energies. I said to him that I was finding the uncertainty difficult.

This sounds like fear to me PM99 which leads to pressure which leads to control. What are you afraid of because what you fear you attract. Does that make sense?

Yes, I am still operating from a place of fear...fear that he wishes he had never come back, fear that he wants to leave but cant because of the devastation it will cause, fear that MC will not fix this, fear that he is just ticking boxes. I guess I could find 100 reasons why his behaviours might not be genuine. I think I need to let go of that don't I, and focus on the fact he might actually want M v2.0. Sometimes I feel like I have lived with this situation for so long (18 months), I don't even know what it feels like to feel 'normal' anymore. It's like I don't know how to sit back and relax and just 'be'.

Originally Posted by LH
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I raised this in MC, and said that when two people get married it's not a case of 'I cant promise we'll stay together but I'll try'. When you take your marriage vows you make a commitment to each other with the intention of staying together. Am I wrong? Am I asking for too much too soon?

You are not wrong but what if his feelings don't comeback and he says "I don't love you the way a man should love a woman and you deserve someone who does but since I made this statement (vow) xx many years ago I will stick it out" Does that work for you?

I know you are right LH, I know I need to accept that he is simply being honest. He also said he was being honest when he wanted to come back and said he loved me, was in love with me, wanted us to grow old together, could see us being an intimate couple again. This "I cant promise anything" is new and makes everything feel so fragile. Perhaps my expectations were too high. I've read other recon and piecing threads, and I am trying to be mindful that we are still on different timelines, that we will both go forward and backwards, both have periods of doubt. I keep re-reading Sandi's recon and piecing thread to remind myself to slow down and step back. Thank you for keeping it real for me LH.

Originally Posted by LH
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I think this is good because I keep saying to H that although we spend time together, we aren't bonding beyond the best friend thing.

Sounds like you are trying to control the situation
Really? I never looked at it like that. The conversation came about because H was feeling that every time I hugged him in bed, or stroked his back it meant I wanted sex and I was trying to explain that I just liked being close to him. That not everything had to lead to sex. I thought this would take the pressure off, to explain that I was OK with hugging and nothing more, that I like physical touch in a non-sexual way, and it made me feel close to him. Maybe I have been trying to solutionise too much. It's so hard getting the balance right of demonstrating affection but not applying pressure.

Originally Posted by LH
Originally Posted by Pommy99
He got upset at this point.

Pressure
Ugh!!! What do I need to stop doing?


M:49 H:49
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Originally Posted by Pommy99

Originally Posted by LH
Originally Posted by Pommy99
He got upset at this point.

Pressure
Ugh!!! What do I need to stop doing?



You need to stop pushing the process to go faster than it goes. This is a HUGE temptation for LBSs that end up Ring and piecing. "He/she is making progress, but we aren't being intimate, or we aren't open mouth kissing, etc."

If you read my last couple of threads you will see that it took my W 2 years to start passionately, open mouth (with tongue) kissing me again! I would get worried that meant something (lots of theories out there about spouses, espeically wives, not kissing like that). She started doing that again in the last few months. But if I had started pushing for it verbally it probably would have been a disaster.

So slow down, let things play out. I see you mention fear that it will all stop again. You have no control over that. You have no control over the pace at which he lets go and fully puts himself out there and embraces Ring and piecing in full. You no control over when and how he does that. What you do control is how you react to all of it.

Pommy, you've got this!


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Originally Posted by Pommy99
Yes, I am still operating from a place of fear...fear that he wishes he had never come back, fear that he wants to leave but cant because of the devastation it will cause, fear that MC will not fix this, fear that he is just ticking boxes. I guess I could find 100 reasons why his behaviours might not be genuine. I think I need to let go of that don't I, and focus on the fact he might actually want M v2.0. Sometimes I feel like I have lived with this situation for so long (18 months), I don't even know what it feels like to feel 'normal' anymore. It's like I don't know how to sit back and relax and just 'be'.

Never Ever Ever is fear the place to operate from because it makes people needy and desperate. That is why it is so important to work on yourself to become a person only a fool would leave. If you were at that place you wouldn't care whether he stayed or left. Then everything you did would come from a peaceful state which in turn makes you very attractive. I say this all the time that Hollywood and Disney would like you to believe that love conquers all when relationships are more about economics then love. When he thought he was going to lose you to the OM he got interested again. Scarcity creates value. Before anyone else is going to see your value you have to know what it is first.

Do you know when you are 100% most likely to reconcile effectively?

When you no longer care if you do or not.

That's the honest and sad truth. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having (value).

Originally Posted by Pommy99
I know you are right LH, I know I need to accept that he is simply being honest. He also said he was being honest when he wanted to come back and said he loved me, was in love with me, wanted us to grow old together, could see us being an intimate couple again. This "I cant promise anything" is new and makes everything feel so fragile.

PM99 there are not guarantees in life accept you will pay taxes and you will die someday. Right now you are in a waiting game to find out his true intentions. Now you can stay in the fetal position hoping and praying that you work this out or you can start to live your best life and if he wants to be a part of it great and if he doesn't that's ok too.

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Originally Posted by may22

This resonates so much with me. My H has said these EXACT same words, both in round one and now. (Honestly. It blows my mind how there is a playbook for all of this and it feels like they're getting their lines from it.) And, I have had the exact same reaction as you... it doesn't feel like enough. We have had many talks both in MC and out about this issue. I'll share some thoughts for you to leave or take:

-- first, it was such a weird experience to read what your H is saying and thinking yes! mine says the same thing! I think the same thing! And then to read LH's response to say "he is being open and honest with you"... that really took me aback and made me think. Just a reflection. I think LH is right. It is way better for him to say this to you than for him to think it but verbally say "I am in for good"... it is probably hard for him to say this because he knows what you want to hear and this isn't exactly it.


Originally Posted by may22
-- I think intentions are important and it is good that your H is being explicit that his intention is to make M2.0 work. I prefer to be optimistic about all this and feel that you can do whatever you really set your mind to, My feeling on this is, cross that bridge when you come to it. One step at a time. Your H is there. He is trying. He has cut it off with EAP. He is being open and honest with you about his feelings and his intentions and his fears. That is all really positive. Take it for what it is and try to focus on the now for yourself as well.
I am trying to sit in the here and now. I am trying to accept this as honesty, but a little bit of me wishes he hadn't come back - or perhaps I shouldn't have taken him back - when he appears to be faltering with his commitment. That said, I've read the 'Piecing' thread again today and am taking some comfort in the statements around the process that the WAS is going through in recommitting to the M. H has said again and again, S/D is a last resort, it terrifies him, but at the moment, his emotions are controlling him and not the other way round. Right now those deeply emotional feelings are still not there for him. But he wants to try. I guess I cannot ask for more than that.

Originally Posted by may22
-- re the rings... we decided to put our rings back on for this trip and TBH I am really, really glad we did. . It is a symbol of his intention to work on our M, even if it isn't a symbol right now of our undying love and commitment to each other. So maybe putting your rings back on doesn't need to be a big meaningful thing, right now, but could help you guys both remember that you're in this together? IDK, I know it is different because your H did actually leave. Just sharing from my perspective on this.
I think I am looking for something symbolic, like a statement from him that we are in M 2.0. It hasn't happened yet. I understand why. we moved him fully out of his rental at the weekend. Again, I was looking for something symbolic, like he'd lock the door for the last time, hand back the keys and there would be a moment where he'd hug me and say that it was just me and him now, back where we should be. I wanted to feel like that chapter had finished. There was no hug, we drove back home, he emptied the van and cleaned his car for 2 hours!!


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Originally Posted by Steve85
If you read my last couple of threads you will see that it took my W 2 years to start passionately, open mouth (with tongue) kissing me again! I would get worried that meant something (lots of theories out there about spouses, espeically wives, not kissing like that). She started doing that again in the last few months. But if I had started pushing for it verbally it probably would have been a disaster.
Interesting that you raise the point about kissing Steve. H has been saying that when we kiss it doesn't feel passionate. This of course made me paranoid about how I kiss him but I knew that even if I kissed him differently, it wouldn't change anything. He will have to get there on his own.

Originally Posted by LH19

Never Ever Ever is fear the place to operate from because it makes people needy and desperate. That is why it is so important to work on yourself to become a person only a fool would leave. If you were at that place you wouldn't care whether he stayed or left.
I'm learning to sit with my feelings of fear and insecurity and not bring him into them. I managed this one evening, I felt terrible but acted 'as if'. It did make me feel better and more in control. when I feel in control I don't feel needy. I really need to work on this, however as it doesn't come naturally and I'm not always good at hiding my emotions (I tend to withdraw rather than outburst and H always notices when I withdraw).



Ok journaling...

H admitted 2 days ago that he is feeling really depressed and unhappy. This never makes me feel good, not just because of him, but because of me as well. Being told that your H is unhappy is never a good thing to hear. It has brought me down over the last couple of days. It exacerbates my insecurities and makes me feel like he is about to walk again. In turn, this makes H feel guilty that he is not giving me what I need or being the H he feels he should be. The guilt brings him down even further.

Today we had MC. MC has suggested that H is putting too much pressure on himself for trying to feel what he doesn't feel, or worrying about not giving me what he feels he should be giving me. Predominanty this is about those feelings of intense love and passion that are missing for H. MC says he needs to focus on what IS happening right now and not what ISN'T happening. I was able to speak about the many positive changes that are taking place in our relationship, the better communication, the honesty, the closeness, the trust we are building. It was good to call these out, as H naturally wants to fix what he sees as a problem, but at the moment is not able. But there is a lot that was broken that we are slowly fixing. Some bits are harder than others. MC asked what it would feel like if the guilt about hurting me or not being able to fix everything right now was to disappear. H said it would feel good, it would take some of the pressure off. I see where you guys are all coming from when you talk about pressure. I need to learn more about what is pressure - some things are obvious (like saying "you never tell me you love me"), but what about when I tell him when I feel down. Where is that line between being open and honest about how you feel, and honesty amounting to pressure? This is a difficult one for me, as H will sense when something is wrong and ask me, and sometimes I just want to sit with my feelings awhile rather than tell him straight away "hey I feel really insecure today". It's a lose-lose. If he senses something is wrong (and I don't tell him what is bothering me), he feels guilt that he's upsetting me; if I tell him what's wrong, he'll feel guilt that he's upsetting me. How do I handle this?

After our session we talked awhile about how we both feel that there is no pain-free route out at the moment; that S/D is painful, and a M that we are struggling to fix is equally as painful. He's made it clear again that S/D is a last resort. But he also said sometimes he feels like he is swimming against the tide. I did admit I feel like this too. But again, reminding myself of the 'Piecing' thread has helped - that we're on different timelines, we go forwards, we go backwards, that sometimes we will feel like giving up, but to accept that this is a long process. H got upset during the session again. I think he is really scared that he knows what he wants to feel but feels none of it with me, and he says it's killing him from the inside.


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Originally Posted by Pommy99
H admitted 2 days ago that he is feeling really depressed and unhappy.

This is how 90% of the WWs feel and think they need major changes to become happy.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
It exacerbates my insecurities and makes me feel like he is about to walk again.

Ok PM99 what are you afraid of? Losing a depressed unhappy man who is constantly reminding you how he has no sexual feelings for you?
Originally Posted by Pommy99
In turn, this makes H feel guilty that he is not giving me what I need or being the H he feels he should be. The guilt brings him down even further.

I am calling BS on this one. He can't blame you for that?
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I need to learn more about what is pressure - some things are obvious (like saying "you never tell me you love me"), but what about when I tell him when I feel down.

It depends on why you are down. Is it because of him? If so then no because he shouldn't effect the way you feel.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
Where is that line between being open and honest about how you feel, and honesty amounting to pressure? This is a difficult one for me, as H will sense when something is wrong and ask me, and sometimes I just want to sit with my feelings awhile rather than tell him straight away "hey I feel really insecure today".

What do you feel insecure about?
Originally Posted by Pommy99
It's a lose-lose. If he senses something is wrong (and I don't tell him what is bothering me), he feels guilt that he's upsetting me; if I tell him what's wrong, he'll feel guilt that he's upsetting me. How do I handle this?

You keep you toes tapping not matter how he feels.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
H got upset during the session again. I think he is really scared that he knows what he wants to feel but feels none of it with me, and he says it's killing him from the inside.

Something doesn't sound right to me. Again I truly believe MCs have a almost perfect success rate when both people want to save the marriage. I don't think he is being completely honest with you.

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LH, thankyou. Reading between the lines, what are you thinking? What do you think is really going on with my H when you call BS and say he is not being honest?


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I think he thinks there is something better out there and doesn't want to put in the hard work. I think his single life got detoured when Covid hit and he got scared when you were talking with the other guy that his plan B was in jeopardy.

That's why you can not show your insecurities. For reconciliation to be possible you need to be on even playing fields. For a relationship to truly work you have to be willing to walk if your needs are not being met. He has to be on trial now too. The problem with most relationships are that both or one persons needs are not being met. You are willing to sacrifice all your needs because you are afraid to lose him. It can't be that way or you will eventually become very resentful.

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Originally Posted by LH19
I think he thinks there is something better out there and doesn't want to put in the hard work. I think his single life got detoured when Covid hit and he got scared when you were talking with the other guy that his plan B was in jeopardy.

That's why you can not show your insecurities. For reconciliation to be possible you need to be on even playing fields. For a relationship to truly work you have to be willing to walk if your needs are not being met. He has to be on trial now too. The problem with most relationships are that both or one persons needs are not being met. You are willing to sacrifice all your needs because you are afraid to lose him. It can't be that way or you will eventually become very resentful.

If he feels there is something better then I don’t know why he is still here, is still deliberating over what he wants. He is still telling me he is committed and wants to focus on the positives and stop overthinking the negatives (as per advice from MC). I just don’t feel good right now. And I’m over-analysing EVERYTHING!

Today he asked if I was still talking to OM. I said no why, and he suggested I could. I asked why and he said maybe to get a different perspective on things. I said I hadn’t had those kinds of conversations with him, about my marriage problems. I’m really upset that he’s encouraging me to talk to another man about my marriage. Wtf is that all about? Unless the question was really to find out if I was still talking to OM?


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EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
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