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Maybe this isn't all bad, May. I think, sometimes, there is a fine line between forcefully and strongly expressing anger, and being abusive. I'm afraid of my H's anger, so I know I am not the best judge of that. I do know you (and I, and pretty much everyone in the world) has a total right to their angry feelings. I also know that the person who made you (me, us) angry can't take our anger away, heal it or fix it. I know you have good strategies for dealing with your anger and so do I. I think the last piece in the puzzle though, is how to be intimate with someone you are angry at? How to express the depth of your anger and have them hear it without resorting to abusive behaviour - which is never okay - or trashing the relationship, or dumping the 'healing' onto the spouse? I know I've been feeling better since I've stopped drinking the STFU smoothie and being very clear when I am angry with my H, and why. It has helped me. I don't think it has helped our marriage, but our marriage was in a poor state anyway - partly, I think, because I was busy smiling and being peaceful and pretending I was not furious with my H for the decisions he's made to destroy my trust in him. I am coming round to thinking that if a marriage can't bear some honesty, then it isn't a marriage, and I think it is perfectly fine for you to forcefully express the depth of your anger to your husband, so long as you aren't abusive to him and so long as you aren't requiring him to deal with those feelings for you.

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Hi friends,

Just checking back in. Alison, my angry behavior probably flirts (or even crosses the line) into bad or abusive behavior. I definitely have said things that aren't nice. I had one more evening where I got really really angry and said really mean things to him. He sat there and took it, I kept being awful and he said he wasn't going to engage (that was a boundary for him), he eventually moved to the kids' bed and I switched to texting him quotes from the Shirley Glass book about how abusive As are, the trauma I'm dealing with, the unprotected sex putting my health at risk, etc. I'm cringing a little remembering it. He eventually came back and said he was really, really sorry but didn't want to engage with me when I was like this. I dropped it and went to sleep.

In the morning (kids were awake) he texted me a long message saying he was sorry, he agreed with all the passages I'd texted, but that we needed to find a better way for me to express how I was feeling to him as he couldn't deal with the abusive anger. He said he was wrong the night before for not being more kind when I first expressed how I was feeling (he had turned on the Hamilton soundtrack, which reminded me he'd seen it with AP, which infuriated me, and then I said to him, should I tell you when I'm feeling angry or upset? I feel like I shouldn't... and he said IDK... to which I said sounds like you don't want me to... and then it devolved from there as I couldn't control myself and started to get madder and madder and eventually spilled over to him). He said he was really sorry for what he had done, he should have responded differently in the moment when I expressed how I was feeling about Hamilton, and next time he would be better.

Anyway. Things have been better since-- that was maybe five night ago and I haven't felt that way since. I have told him a couple times when I'm feeling upset and he's responded much more empathetically. I've been able to leave my anger and focus on having fun with the kids and with him. The hotel part of our trip ends tomorrow and we're in a camper van for a week... will see how the close quarters affect this.

I think feeling that AP is out of the picture has taken a lot of the fear out of the equation for me. And maybe I'm kidding myself but I really don't think there is any chance they're in contact since we're together 24-7. I'm realizing we can see if we can make this work, but if we can't, nothing is stopping me from choosing to walk if I decide that is a better path for me. He will have a lot of work to do and I am not going to settle for the half-a$$ed H-in-body-but-not-in-spirit that he's shown so far. I want the real deal and while I'm willing to wait for it and work for it, if he can't give that to me in the end... it isn't enough for me. But for now, I'm willing to cruise and give this a shot. Watching him with my kids does really hit a soft spot for me.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Hi May

Glad to hear that he is accepting your anger, and agreeing with you, but I guess being on holiday isnt the best timing (but he only has himself to blame for dragging his heels in invoking the NC with AP). I do admire you for being able to switch your focus onto your kids and having fun in spite of the sh1tshow going on around you. (I tend to really withdraw when I am overwhelmed with my situation and find it difficult to switch modes.)

Are you able to take some time out when you feel your emotions start to rise - go off for a little walk, pop out in the car to pick up some groceries, play a game on your phone? This might give you a little time for the boiling over feelings to subside and allow you to think about what you say before launching an attack. (Incidentally, the irony of us having to control ourselves in such a way as to suit or protect a lying/cheating spouse is not lost on me. But I guess irrespective of how they acted themsleves, constructive dialog is probably more productive. Although I also feel that it is good for them to see and feel the intensity of emotion in what they have caused.)

Hope the next few days in the campervan go ok.{{Hugs}}


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
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EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
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Thanks, Pommy! I have done better at managing my emotions but I think it is something I'll need to keep working at for some time.

I had another episode last week where I got really angry-- in the middle of the night, I woke up and couldn't go back to sleep and decided somehow it was a good time to wake him up and whisper-hiss to him that not all STDs can be picked up with a blood test. He didn't say much, listened, apologized, but wouldn't engage. That made me angrier and I kept pushing him. He said he had a lot of things to say but didn't think it would be helpful for him to say them. I pushed and he said, May, the reason I decided to have unprotected sex with AP was because, at the time I made that decision, I never intended to sleep with you again. (He previously told me they'd both gotten tested prior to this, so he "knew" she was "clean".) He said, things changed. And I'm really sorry for everything. But that is where my head was when I made that decision and things are different now.

It really made me think a lot. Realizing that in his mind, he had already left the M, it was over for him excepting the whole telling me part-- it really shows that to the WAS, the M is over at BD or even before. In his head, he'd committed to AP and was charging down that path even though he could never actually take the final steps to make it happen. He went a long ways down that path and it will take him a long time to come back, if he ever actually does. Though I do believe he is trying, in his own way. Whether it will be enough for me is yet to be seen.

It really brought home for me the value of DB-ing for YOU, not for your spouse. He's on his own journey and I'm on mine. I don't like myself losing control and letting my emotions get the better of me. I need to rework on healthy detachment-- not needing him to say one thing or another to feel better. Being OK with the validity of my own feelings but not letting them take over my actions. Understanding to my core that all I can control is my own behavior and healing, no-one else's-- and that I need to do a better job at this for myself as well. WF, if you're reading here, I have been thinking a lot about what you said on my thread and yours about healing being our own responsibility, not his. This is definitely something I need to really accept and learn how to do.

We talked another time about communication, and that I need more explicit words to let me know he's here for good, that this is his choice, in order to feel secure and give him what he wants-- the connecting part. He said that for him the actions are more meaningful, us connecting, having fun, working together. He feels that most of the time on this trip it has been really positive, we're both having fun and connecting, and that is what he is looking for and helping him right now. But he feels scared and unsure when I can go from that to totally distancing or getting angry (which happens when I start thinking about the A).

He said he feels in a bit of a catch-22 because he can be feeling really positive and good about us, and not about the A or anything at all, and is communicating that to me through his behavior, but that doesn't stop me from thinking about it/her and going cold. Yet because he's not thinking about her or me being upset-- for him she and the A are in the past, not the present-- he doesn't know how to preemptively avoid those times for me. Whereas for me, the hurt he caused with the A is very much real and present, today, and isn't going to go away just because he is no longer actively engaging in it. The damage is current even if the behavior is no longer there. And this time around I have less trust that it really is in the past, also, so that is harder as well. I feel he is more willing to accept that now than he has been in the past, and some of the conversations we've had this trip have helped with that. But thhose are baby steps if anything.

We talked about generally building the positive small interactions between us, to look for the good, that he could look for opportunities to tell or show me that he's glad we're here together (could just be a hug, doesn't have to be verbally explicit) and I'm not just a necessary appendage to being here with the girls.

That conversation did help me quite a bit in terms of understanding where he is and, if I care to do it, how continued DB-ing-- in this case PMA, acting as if, etc-- would be helpful for him in not pushing him away. When I feel like my goal is still standing for the M, doing absolutely everything I can to keep my family intact and my kids sleeping in the same house as me every night-- this seems like the obvious and right course. When I start to feel angry and that this whole sitch is so unfair and f-ed up and all his GD fault, that gets harder and my natural response is to lash out at him, throw the burden on him to fix. I know that is not healthy or smart. Something I need to continue to work on.

I've also been comparing this time around to the spring-- what is different for me, for him, for us, and what is the same. For me, I have much less optimism and faith-- which I also am blaming on him in my dark moments, since he *had* in a lot of ways what he wants now-- a PMA and positive engagement from me without all the doubts-- but he was meanwhile still obsessing over her and not really working on disengaging himself, and since he didn't want to talk about it it just lingered and festered.

This time, much more is in the open, both in terms of secrets of his that are now out, they're out of communication and she's blocked (yes I did watch him do it and I have the password to his phone should I feel the need to check and make sure, which I haven't done nor intend to). I do think he's more committed at this juncture to working on the M and being OK with her being gone for good. He said not having access to the 'find your friends' feature on his phone was really huge (and I know I've said this before, but so maddening that he couldn't see in the spring just how obsessive and unhealthy this behavior was... he hadn't told his IC he was doing it either so at some level he knew it was a bad idea).

We just ended our week in the camper van but decided not to go home. We have had an incredible time and been able to experience things we never would have otherwise, since there are so few tourists here. However, our community's COVID situation has taken a turn for the worse. Where we live is probably about to go back on lockdown, so we've rented a condo in a neighboring community with a pool, access to the beach, etc but can get back to working virtually, in a place with much less COVID and where we can still get outside. School starts in two weeks and will be virtual for at least the first two weeks. One of my colleagues is very ill with COVID and in the hospital on a ventilator, and my neighbor's father, both grandparents on his dad's side, and aunt all have it-- his aunt was just admitted to the hospital with advanced pneumonia. While earlier in the pandemic this all felt more distant, that the world was imploding but I was able to focus on the positives. The devastating impact on lives and families is hard to really wrap my head around.

Sending virtual love to all of you. I have been checking in on your threads and miss you guys.


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Just journaling...

Now that we're not in "vacation" mode in the quite same way-- and all four of us aren't in a camper van-- there is a bit more space, both physically and mentally, which is good, I think. I feel like I can see H making more of an effort to connect, going out of his way to smile at me, make eye contact, make small physical contacts like touching my arm or back. Being kind. When we were on top of each other and had a go-go-go schedule of things to do, there wasn't really the space to see any of that-- whether it was happening or not, I don't know that I was in a place to recognize it anyway since I was pretty stressed and working on controlling my anger. I have been able to keep my PMA going, the anger has subsided quite a bit, focusing on my kids and the positives. I'm feeling more in a zone of taking things day by day, as they are, not worrying about where H is or isn't.

I do have some fear about what happened last time and what makes this time different (or not)... like I think back to the spring and things seemed to be going so well. I feel like I care less, this time. He'll get his $hit together and to a place where we can work on M2.0 or he won't. This time he has been more explicit that he wants to work on reconnecting, but I don't know that I'm buying that yet-- I don't want to push the timeline or get my hopes up. Right now, I'm just trying to channel my inner Wayfinder wink

One day at a time, marathon not a sprint, all the rest.


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All good things, my dear. Covid is getting closer and closer to home as well. My job keeps sending out vague emails about our return to work plan but has no date set which has put a lot of people on edge. My girls are going back virtually as well but a lot of schools and businesses are playing with fire because apparently Covid isn't a real thing in the Midwest even though between H and myself we've been to 4 funerals this year.

Enjoy the space my dear. The breathing room in your sitch and the breathing room from the stress of the pandemic. You're fear here with H is totally, and completely valid. And I think the caring less is a really good thing. All of this will come easier and frankly go easier if you are simply invested in the trying and not so much the holding on. You just worry about you. Your healing. Your boundaries. Your wants and needs. Your apologies and your 180s. Like you said he's either in this or he's not, only time will tell. And you have time. It's a marathon not a sprint wink

xoxoxoxo

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May, I am really proud of you. You sound more grounded and sure of herself than ever. Yes to this:

Originally Posted by wayfarer
And I think the caring less is a really good thing. All of this will come easier and frankly go easier if you are simply invested in the trying and not so much the holding on.


which it seems like you are well on the road to mastering.

Your H is showing a lot of good signs from an outsider's perspective: accepting your rages without self-pity, acknowledging your fears, acknowledging the past, owning the trauma he has caused and most importantly, just showing up each day for you as a family. These are all such good first steps.

Originally Posted by may22
This time he has been more explicit that he wants to work on reconnecting, but I don't know that I'm buying that yet-- I don't want to push the timeline or get my hopes up.


I still stand by my belief that in the end, your marriage continuing will be your decision to make, not H's. You will either decide his actions are enough or not. So live as if it's your choice. Which may mean that you need to be more intentional and explicit of your acceptance of where things are at right now. There is no harm in soaking up H's charms and efforts if you know that in the long run you get to decide. Because either way, you are giving the M the best chance of making it to true 2.0.

You're doing great, keep up the good PMA and just being your smart, intuitive self.

((((May))))

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Thanks, Wayfinder and Sage.

It definitely is a marathon. I feel like focusing on me, caring less about what does or doesn't happen and just being OK with being where we are... that is slippery. I can feel it and live it and then the next moment something happens-- a thought might just occur to me-- and I lose that centeredness and my first reaction is to look to H to fix it for me. Like the poor guy will be totally oblivious, sitting next to me and to him nothing has changed and to me I'm angry and looking to him for some magical response to make me feel better. I know that isn't the way. I don't know that you guys should be proud of me yet. I'm a work in progress, that's for sure.

I think the improvements I've been seeing in this last week are me recognizing this and allowing myself to feel how I feel and let it go (or not) without feeling like he needs to be a part of that process at all. I have let him in on it a few times, not in an angry way but just telling him, and that has worked out really well. He made a joke that could be construed in a way about the A, I told him it was really hurtful, and he immediately apologized and hugged me... whereas before I think I would have snapped and said mean things and he would have gone on the defensive. So, some progress. But slow.

We are planning on heading home (to a total lockdown, ugh) next week, and I think it will be good to get my routines back, start exercising again, sleep in my own bed, have a little more privacy when I feel like I need it.

Sage, the thought of this being my choice in the end... that terrifies me, somehow. Really. I am feeling more and more like that *is* the case, that he's let AP go and that his narrative/fear that he'd expressed before-- that he'd do that and then six or twelve months down the line I'd decide never mind, this isn't what I want-- is unfolding as the next reality. And partially I feel scared and angry because he isn't doing all the things I think he should in order to prevent that from happening, and partially I'm terrified that regardless that is where we will end up and it won't be enough for me, wherever he gets, and I'll be the one then pulling the trigger and making the call to only have my children fifty percent of the time. Which I absolutely don't want more than anything... but I also don't want a half-a$$ed H who doesn't love me how I feel I should be loved by an H... it is all confusing and difficult and I don't feel up to the task of parsing through it all right now.

I know I don't need to. I probably shouldn't. Let the past stay the past and the future stay the future and sit in the now. I'm pretty terrible at that, though. i need my 16 point checklist to do all the things I'm supposed to do, and my H to do all the things he's supposed to do, so that we can neatly put this all behind us and move on triumphantly to M2.0. I know that is a ridiculous fantasy and the only way through this is messy and not within my control and all the rest. It just isn't how I work. Letting go is probably the hardest thing I've ever done... and I don't mean letting go of H. I mean letting go of my own expectations and imagined future and perception of control on the world around me.

So... I know all the things I should be doing to focus on me and let go, cultivate my inner zen goddess. They're working, kind of. In a two steps forward, one and a half steps back kind of way. Hoping when we get back home I'll have more ability to make that my primary focus. But any tips are welcome!


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Originally Posted by may22

It definitely is a marathon. I feel like focusing on me, caring less about what does or doesn't happen and just being OK with being where we are... that is slippery. I can feel it and live it and then the next moment something happens-- a thought might just occur to me-- and I lose that centeredness and my first reaction is to look to H to fix it for me. Like the poor guy will be totally oblivious, sitting next to me and to him nothing has changed and to me I'm angry and looking to him for some magical response to make me feel better. I know that isn't the way. I don't know that you guys should be proud of me yet. I'm a work in progress, that's for sure.


I think the improvements I've been seeing in this last week are me recognizing this and allowing myself to feel how I feel and let it go (or not) without feeling like he needs to be a part of that process at all. .
This is definitely progress - recognising when you feel unbalanced, sitting with it and letting the feelings pass without reacting or bringing him into it. That is a big tick in the box.

Originally Posted by may22
And partially I feel scared and angry because he isn't doing all the things I think he should in order to prevent that from happening, and partially I'm terrified that regardless that is where we will end up and it won't be enough for me, wherever he gets, and I'll be the one then pulling the trigger and making the call to only have my children fifty percent of the time. Which I absolutely don't want more than anything... but I also don't want a half-a$$ed H who doesn't love me how I feel I should be loved by an H... it is all confusing and difficult and I don't feel up to the task of parsing through it all right now.
Have you read the 'Piecing' thread lately. I read it again today and it was a helpful reminder about the different timelines that WAS & LBS are on, that LBS is generally more advanced in the process & personal growth than WAS, that much of WAS energy has been dealing with ending an affair and recovering from addiction. Don't let those fears overcome you based on where you are at now.

Originally Posted by may22
I know I don't need to. I probably shouldn't. Let the past stay the past and the future stay the future and sit in the now. I'm pretty terrible at that, though. i need my 16 point checklist to do all the things I'm supposed to do, and my H to do all the things he's supposed to do, so that we can neatly put this all behind us and move on triumphantly to M2.0. I know that is a ridiculous fantasy and the only way through this is messy and not within my control and all the rest. It just isn't how I work. Letting go is probably the hardest thing I've ever done... and I don't mean letting go of H. I mean letting go of my own expectations and imagined future and perception of control on the world around me.

So... I know all the things I should be doing to focus on me and let go, cultivate my inner zen goddess. They're working, kind of. In a two steps forward, one and a half steps back kind of way. Hoping when we get back home I'll have more ability to make that my primary focus. But any tips are welcome!
Be kind to yourself, that is my tip. And yes, sit in the now. That is what I am trying to learn to do, to let go of what has been said and done; to stop worrying about what H isn't doing and focus on what he is doing; to stop thinking about what is missing and nurture the small things that are in the here and now. I remember something I read somewhere about a marriage repair being like a newly planted seed. All the good is happening below the surface - you cant see it, but transformation is taking place. Growth may be invisible but it is happening, and you just need to nurture it carefully.

Big hugs {{{May }}} - you survived your trip and it hasn't broken you or H - it could have so easily gone the other way. I think that's progress!!


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

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Thanks, Pommy!

I haven't looked at the piecing thread... I have stayed away as I haven't considered anything we are doing yet "piecing" either this time or the time before. I just don't have the deep certainty that H is in it for the long haul, yet. I think he's taking baby steps, positive ones, and of course assuming it really is over with AP for good that is a big one.

But for me, I haven't felt like we were there until we could look each other in the eyes and say... you're the one. I want to make this work. I don't feel that H is in a place to say that, yet. And maybe I'll be waiting forever for the deep remorse but I want that too. IDK.

I remember last time I said I'd wait six months and then see where we are. Aggravating because we are at six months now past his Feb ending of the A and I can't help but wonder where we would be today if only H had had more self-control, or listened to me and blocked her in the first place. I guess it is unknowable and not worth the time wondering what if. But it still bothers me, especially because I don't feel the same level of hope and optimism I did the first time around. I have some resentment around losing that towards him that I'm not really sure how to handle.

I feel like the smartest thing for me to do right now is-- as you say-- be kind to myself and sit in the now. Continue to focus on myself, what I want and need and my own healing. Take joy in my children and the small things. And as you say, be open to recognizing and focusing on the positive things my H *is* doing rather than the things he is not... I don't know why that is so hard, but it is.

My H has complained all along (to the degree we talked about it in the spring and then a TON in June and July looking back at the spring when he "relapsed" (that is how I"m preferring to think about it these days... doesn't mean he won't again)) that I want to skip over this part and just get what I want, i.e. H back securely in his "place". That I want to just put this all behind us and have him back as my loving, worshipful H. I don't think that is what I want-- I want this to have meant something, like Wayfarer talks about, or Esther Perel. That the pain and trauma and work will put us in a place we never would have reached without going through the $hit. But I see how he can think that. He feels I want to dictate what he should say and how he should feel... and TBH, though I don't want to admit it (and definitely haven't to him) there is some truth to that. So for me, a lot of the work I need right now is on that letting go part. Not needing H to feel or say one thing or another to feel OK about where I am, where we are, that I've made the right choice by standing.

It is so much easier to see things in black and white. H is a jerk, a lying cheater, irredeemable. H is a flawed human being who has made devastating mistakes but is trying to repair what he's broken. Somehow recognizing the little things he's doing in the day to day without letting myself jump to the conclusion that he's in it for the long haul is really difficult for me. He said to me explicitly the other day that I'm not letting myself see small actions that could tell me his feelings are changing. I want it all and am blind to the small good steps. Maybe this is true. I'm not sure. All I know is this is HARD.

Pommy, are there any threads in piecing you would recommend? Even though we aren't there yet maybe it would be helpful for me to read... at least the things you are talking about, patience and differing timelines, would DEFINITELY be helpful smile


Me (46) H (42)
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4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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