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#2901968 08/13/20 01:58 AM
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Well, I thought I'd move over here completely from Newcomers because it's been almost one year post BD. Plus I do enjoy the more philosophical atmosphere here. wink

long story short - we are expats from the US. H has been struggling with working in a new country and showed signs with having trouble with finding his identity. H was sexually abused as a child, which then translates to his lack of self love and unresolved resentment toward his parents (who do not know about the abuse). Last year out of nowhere he wanted distance and time to figure things out, and then it followed by him moving out to an undisclosed location and ultimately wanting a divorce. H also has a history of depression and alcoholism. We have three children.

where we are now - H has taken away my access to his funds and cancelled my credit card under his account. We could not agree on a child support figure. He low-balled me and I stated that I decline to discuss further if he cannot meet me close to what I'm demanding. Under foreign law it is nearly impossible for him to divorce me without my consent. my worse case scenario is that I get the low-ball figure by court order and remains married.

Anyway, I'm coasting to see where it will all go. I have suffered and grieved the death of my marriage. I am moving beyond that.

One thing that is causing me pain is seeing my eldest affected by the deterioration of our M. S11 has Trichotillomania and has been pulling out his eyelashes since last year. S11 has refused to talk to me about what's causing him stress until few days ago, he finally opened up a bit. A few things he said - "where does dad live?" "you guys are pretty much like divorced already." "I miss dad but when he is around all he does is yell at me." "I worry about the whole step mom or step dad thing"

I addressed what I could, but I told him that I really have no answers to the questions related to dad. I don't know what happened. I said if he'd like to call his dad sometimes, he's welcome to. he shook his head.

I understand all I can do is be the stable parent. Where things will go, I honestly don't know. We might have to cut extracurricular activities because of cost. We might have to downsize to a smaller rental. I am picking up some work but might need to find a full time job (I was a sahm). All I am hoping is that an absent father is not going to leave too much of a scar on their lives.


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Welcome to the MLC Forum. I'm pasting in Cadet's Welcome posting for this forum.



Welcome to this board.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)

I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.

This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.

I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289

Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296

Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444

Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869

The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1

WAS showing you positive signs? WAIT - READ THIS!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772942#Post2772942

Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.

I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.

Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!

Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.

I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.

Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.

Detach the single most important thing to DO.

Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Me-65, D32,S31


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Hi Wooba

Welcome to MLC

Im so sorry to hear about your son

My XH left when my D was around 11-12

What seemed to help the most was us bonding-we became closer and we talked every night- well mostly I listened and reasurred her I was here for her and would always be

If his Dad is yelling at him and abusive, I would intervene(talk to H),or limit contact for a bit and protect child-
keep the communication open...boys are harder to talk to tahn girls from my experience
,
The finances are another tough area for the LBS..
I had to learn to be super tough to XH here..to make sure we would get our share
Im sure you will as well-

Hang in there
Hopefully things will get better-


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Originally Posted by peacetoday
What seemed to help the most was us bonding-we became closer and we talked every night- well mostly I listened and reasurred her I was here for her and would always be


Yeah, I find all I can do is just to be honest with him to the extent that he understands and keep checking up on him occasionally. Be the best model for my children...practice handling things with grace and compassion. keeping myself from bad-mouthing their father (this one is surprisingly hard).

Well, I need to vent a bit. My parents are of course, worried about how things will play out financially for me. They would hate for me to be "stuck with raising the children but with no financial support from H." So there has been a lot of unsolicited advice especially coming from my mom...I do appreciate her trying to help me but most of the time I just keep telling her, it doesn't work like that. H is an alien. I cannot reason with him. He is completely illogical right now.

My parents even went so far to tell me that maybe I should give the children up to H since he's the one making enough money to raise them. saying that I still have many years ahead of me to be tied down to raising these kids until they're 18. But how could I? Knowing that H is a completely mental with depression and alcoholism, how could I hand the kids to him entirely? On the other hand, I don't want my parents have to take on the financial burden of raising their grandchildren because I'm not making enough money to support them myself yet.

Few days ago, H's company's HR invited me out to a company family event. I'm considering going (H already stated he wouldn't go) anyway, but I'm not sure whether to let the cat out of the bag or still act as if things are normal. I suspect his office does not know yet. But then again, who really cares whether we are divorcing or not? Would it be such a big deal to just be honest?

ugh. just so tired of all this bs.


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I think it is great how you're able to understand where your parents are coming from and why, but totally get how you are feeling. Of course they want to protect you just like you want to protect your own kids. FWIW I think you're doing the right thing.

To the extent you can, talking with S11 and keeping the door open for conversations is so important, I think. I wonder, though, if you just pushing the questions off to your H is necessarily the right move? I don't know and am just offering this as an idea-- YOU know that your H is incapable of answering them well and your 11 year old probably knows that in his bones as well, so offering for him to call H is really not a good answer. I wonder if more validating around that-- I'm confused too, it is hard, it feels weird not knowing where he's living and I get it, I know how you're feeling, give me a hug-- and then really reinforcing to him as much as possible that YOU are there, you aren't going anywhere, etc-- could help? Maybe you're already doing all of that. It was just as I was reading what you wrote, it felt a little like "call dad to ask him that" from your son's perspective might feel like a dead end and that you don't really want to talk about it either, so he has nowhere to turn.

If you want to go to the event-- go! And what does being honest hurt at this point? Do what feels right to you. If you don't feel you want to engage in the conversations if they come up when you're there, but you still want to go, maybe have a good topic changing line at hand?


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Quote
My parents even went so far to tell me that maybe I should give the children up to H since he's the one making enough money to raise them. saying that I still have many years ahead of me to be tied down to raising these kids until they're 18.


Wow - honey - can you see how ABNORMAL that response is? I'm guessing some family of origin issues on your part may be why you didn't see H's issues earlier in the relationship. That is NOT how parents and grandparents are supposed to respond. Appropriate response? "Oh honey, what can we do to help? ". Clearly either your parents are not bonded to your kids or they don't think you're a capable person - totally insulting either way! Get their negative voices out of your head. Clearly moving home with the folks is not a good option in your case.

So - you're in a foreign country, what are job prospects there like for you versus your home country? Is moving home with the children anything you would want to do or advantageous to you in any way? I can only imagine the difficulties in enforcing child support or alimony in a foreign country but between countries seems impossible. Still, think carefully about what works best for your future and the children, not necessarily H. What are your skills? What kinds of work have you done in the past? Which country has a better safety net?

Sadly it does sound like you might not be able to rely on H in the long run financially - if his alcoholism gets worse and he loses his income you need to be ready to survive with your kids without his help, so it's time to make some big plans! You can do this!

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Hi

That was a tough response from your folks-
Hopefully, they did not realize what they said or mean it-

I can tell you after raising my 2 children since they were 5 and 11 when XL left, has been the most rewarding journey
They are both amazing adults, hardworking, honest and loving.

MY XH never gave any support financially or emotionally to them

I also liked what May said-
We may have to become the sole emotional support for our kids-Yes it is hard
but if we commit to them, we will see the rewards later in them and us-

Our kids also will learn how to parent from us
How to stick things out
How to get through hard times ect...


Yes it was scary, I too wondered all the same
Could I do it?
How will I support them?

Many of us do it, and I know many woman who for one reason or another became single moms
sometimes we become both mom and dad

Sacrifice it is, but the greatest kind
The energy comes, the money comes the friends come


Hang in there
do the footwork as KML says to figure out how you can support them

and trust the process

hang in there
we were all where you are

many LBS return to school
jobs appear
and we will find ways to make it work


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wooba Offline OP
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Sorry I wasn’t clear. My parents are great, they will no doubt support me if I want primary custody, but it definitely will set them back financially. Right from the start they told me it to worry about money or divorce because they will be able to help me and the kids. It’s just that supporting three grandchildren wasn’t part of their retirement plan! I think they were more worried for my future as a single mom raising three children. H makes more than 10x than me right now. It’s ridiculous that he’s not giving me anything for the kids.

Moving back to the US seems unlikely at least for now because of covid. Also the living expense here is much lower. I am hustling. I started a business with a friend. Picking up some free lance work. What I make now can’t support all of us, so I’m still running on my reserved funds. My next step is cutting down costs first.

May, yes I do tell S11 all of that and the asking him to call his dad was more if he wants to connect with his dad. I told him clearly dad hasn’t been initiating contact much, so if he wants to he is welcome to. Children are really perceptive and I believe they know more than they’re showing. I also have been sharing more about how I am feeling so that they know that it is alright to talk about how we’re feeling even if those feelings are not so great.

I know it’s the fear of the uncertainty talking again. The what ifs are looming over me constantly. What if my business isn’t taking off....what if my H really is so set on being a jacka$$.....

It’s not fear of not having the M anymore, it’s fear of not being able to provide for the kids.


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Sorry but they're not "great parents" if they think you should abandon your kids to your H to raise just to make your life easier.

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The what ifs are difficult

we have to live in a world of uncertainty in many areas of our life at different times and seasons

I would get support from here and others you can trust who understand the process of MLC or therapy

It helps me to feel the feelings...let them come and go
then there is faith...whatever faith you believe in

I found I was always taken care of
especially if I listened to my gut and tried against all odds to do the right thing with XH , the kids and all situations
no not easy

hang in there


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Yup. Doing the right thing is my mantra too.

Update on going to the company event - I informed H about the event few days ago and his response was “I wouldn’t go to an event involving someone who treated us so badly.” The host was our previous landlord and we had some minor issues, but eventually we moved to a new place and it was fine with me. But of course, I guess maybe H was already bunkers then, because he is still holding a grudge for something that is pretty insignificant. Anyways, I’ve decided to go, and H’s reaction was “I thought I already told you that she treated me, you, and the kids terribly!”

I wanted to laugh and write back, “YOU are the one that’s treating us terribly.”

H is still claiming the victim seat as usual. Gosh. I really do have compassion for this man who cannot get his head outta his a$$.


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Hi, wooba. I admire your compassion and restraint, as always! Maybe you'll make some good connections at the event or a friend--who knows. I think it's great you're just doing what you want to do. Let us know how it goes...


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I think it is great that you are going, Wooba!

Your H has chosen to extricate himself from family activities and decisions at the moment, so you get to make the best ones for yourself and your children.

A dear friend, after hearing that H spewed at me about the same issues over and over again, told me: tell yourself it's just noise. Noise, noise, noise. Change the channel, get a new line, we have heard that one before, H, move along.

Your H is just being noisy. You can turn down the volume if you want to.

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Welcome to this forum Wooba,
Originally Posted by wooba
H is still claiming the victim seat as usual. Gosh. I really do have compassion for this man who cannot get his head outta his a$$.

It’s really quite something isn’t it Wooba! Good for you for forging ahead with what you want to do for you! Looking forward to hearing how it goes.
Originally Posted by Sage4
A dear friend, after hearing that H spewed at me about the same issues over and over again, told me: tell yourself it's just noise. Noise, noise, noise. Change the channel, get a new line, we have heard that one before, H, move along.

Your H is just being noisy. You can turn down the volume if you want to.

Sage4, I like this....along with Cardinals advice to wear headphones = winning combo!

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I did go to the family event and it was fine. Everyone else was accompanied by their husbands except for me. One person asked me “Where is H? Is he at home?” I just nodded. I didn’t feel like it was the right moment to go into details. I actually did not feel like the odd one out either. I guess by now I am pretty comfortable with going solo.

A few times in a row this week where H emailed/texted said that he would *try* to stop by and see the kids, but ended up not coming because he was “feeling sick” or “work”. Today he called to talk to the kids, S10 has been wondering about this and finally asked H, “Where do you live?” H answered, “in a dark, tiny room.” And then he said, “is that answer enough for you?” Of course, S10 being only 10, accepted that answer and did not press on.

Just wow. I do believe metaphorically he is in a dark, tiny room.


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I dont think the MLCer creates the magical life they expected to

a dark tiny room is probably pretty accurate


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Originally Posted by wooba
Finally asked H, “Where do you live?” H answered, “in a dark, tiny room.” And then he said, “is that answer enough for you?” Of course, S10 being only 10, accepted that answer and did not press on.

Just wow. I do believe metaphorically he is in a dark, tiny room.


It is also dark and tiny to burden a 10-year old with that answer, and then with the "is that answer enough for you?"

The answer should have been -- "I'm in a small place for now but working on making a cozy spot for you to visit. I will see you very soon and I will always love you."

Just remember what a normal-minded father would do so you can stay clear-headed.

I often didn't. My story is the cautionary tale.


I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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Glad you went to the event and glad you had fun!

That is such an odd and sad answer for a 10 year old. Just wow is right. I second Gerda in keeping your eyes open (I know you are) to how strange and inappropriate that answer is for your son, ESPECIALLY the question "is that enough for you?". (And yet not surprising, given the way he told them you guys were splitting up in that strange way (in the car, right?) and then completely forgot about it.) He must be in a pretty bad place to be doing this... is it surprising to you? Or was he always kind of like this?

your boys are so lucky to have you as their mom. smile


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Peace, Gerda, may22- yes it was totally a messed up answer to a 10 yr old. To anyone really. This whole thing is just so sad.

H actually called this morning and asked “if we could take the kids out to lunch at that place S11 likes.” Our schedule was open so I said sure. This was the first time all of us had a meal together in months. After waiting at the table for 10 mins, I called him up to see where he was. He picked up the phone, sounding like I had just woken him up from a nap. I said “we are having lunch together right?” He responded, “what?” I said, “you called this morning and said to have lunch together?” And he finally woke up and realized that he overslept. Anyway, he came. And he looked unwell. Frazzled. He said he hasn’t been feeling well so he took Thursday and Friday off. The whole meal was really uncomfortable. He could not participate in the conversation normally, I don’t even know how to describe it but it’s like he all the sudden was socially challenged. He even called the waiter stupid in front of the kids. A lot of passive aggressive remarks.

May- he’s always had his idiosyncrasies. But when we had love, trust, and respect for each other, as family I accept those idiosyncrasies and took them for part of who he is. I did not like them at times, but overall they were within my threshold. I think now it’s more than me having my rosed color glasses off. He has become more and more strange.

I teared up a little after seeing him. I don’t wish him ill, and seeing someone I loved falling into pieces is very sad. But I reminded myself it’s not my problem anymore. I will not overextend myself. Plus he’s went through this sad-I-am-so-unwell-to-go-to-work phase before. Who knows what his deal really is.


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Wow, wooba, perhaps he was hungover too? It sounds like you're doing well at feeling the sadness--of course it's sad, of course it's hard to see him like this--while keeping your boundaries and taking care of you and your children. This is where I don't have experience, and where it seems so difficult: it's one thing to manage your own expectations, but I would imagine it's another to watch your children navigate theirs, and to be disappointed for them when he's not fully "there," when he's clearly off in some way.

This resonates with me:
Originally Posted by wooba
But when we had love, trust, and respect for each other, as family I accept those idiosyncrasies and took them for part of who he is. I did not like them at times, but overall they were within my threshold. I think now it’s more than me having my rosed color glasses off. He has become more and more strange.
Maybe that's a difference I've been struggling to articulate or a distinction I'm not sure if I can make sometimes--rose colored glasses off vs. genuine changes that are happening.

((wooba))


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Hi

I saw a lot of strange new parts of my XH in MLC
He dressed different. He partied like a teenager. He was secretive
He sometimes looked happy and good and other times he looked awful
He lived on the beach

He was a different man and he was sick a lot
He got High Blood pressure and ailments during this time
He was 40

He was also using prescriptions and medications for his Blood pressure
drinking also

He was a very sober man b4 MLC
The pain they internally go through pushes them into activities to numb it
they stay up, some party- then oversleep

You may see more as time goes on

You are doing good and now you are probably seeing this new person he is
it takes a while to sink in
I really could not believe how much my XH changed in a short span of time

Read all you can about MLC
You will see recurrent theme

hang in


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Good Morning wooba

Welcome to the MLC board. From what I’ve read your H fits the MLCer traits. His confusion and obvious depression are very telling.

Good for you going to the family event and having a good time.

Originally Posted by wooba
S11 has refused to talk to me about what's causing him stress until few days ago, he finally opened up a bit. A few things he said - "where does dad live?" "you guys are pretty much like divorced already." "I miss dad but when he is around all he does is yell at me." "I worry about the whole step mom or step dad thing"

I addressed what I could, but I told him that I really have no answers to the questions related to dad. I don't know what happened. I said if he'd like to call his dad sometimes, he's welcome to. he shook his head.

It does take a while of consistent stable parenting for children to open up.

It is perfectly fine and normal for son not to want to talk to, or contact, Dad. Do not push it. You job is not to facilitate the relationship between son(s) and Dad, your job is not to destroy it.

I understand you have no really concrete answers regarding Dad. However, you do know more than you may give yourself credit for. You have seen alien H’s behaviour, his outburst, his depressed self (I live in a dark tiny room for example), his confusion, the blowing up of his life, and so on. Do you believe in MLC?

That is such a question isn’t it? It takes us a while to gather enough understanding and compassion to find belief and acceptance for such an incredible shift in our once loving spouse. It is quite unbelievable at first.

However, I do think you see, understand, and believe (or mostly anyhow). Tell your kids. Explain to them.

They need answers. Age appropriate of course. They thirst for information and understanding as well. Their lives have been blown up too. They are looking for answers and will find explanations elsewhere or make up there own.

The big thing, be honest. This is not their fault. That is the most important message; reinforce it often.

Explain how Dad has changed, the mental and emotional problem part of this. It is difficult to find the age appropriate balance, however kids do provide feedback and follow up questions that do lead us.

Children have a desire for knowledge and accept things better and quicker than adults. MLC is a really thing. Children accept it quickly and with an explanation will continue their healing path.

There is no need to disparage their Dad. Be kind and compassionate, and truthful. I know you are by the way - just encouraging you as these conversations with our children are rather difficult. It is the right thing to do.

You might consider discussing his Dad yelling at son. The whole projection and Dad’s outburst and behaviour is really about himself and the pain within.

I would also explore the stepdad and stepmom thing. Yeah, kids would be worried about that. You can speak to one half of that for sure. And you might even be surprised at what they are actually worried about. My daughter was actually worried for me. She told me she would be ok with a stepmom. (Stepdad not so much). That speaks to the abandonment she suffered; her Mom abandoned her, not her Dad. Getting that out in the open lead to other discussions.

Have faith. You got this.

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H has been developing a pattern of “not following through” lately. Friday he said he would like to help with the boys’ first day of school with carrying books and things to the classroom. He even asked if I’d be ok with him coming to the house first and riding in the car with us in the morning to school. I said of course.

So today when I emailed to confirm with him, he wrote back, “I missed work two days in a row, so I’ll need to get into work early Monday.”

Yup. No apology, no nothing. I told the boys and they were disappointed. S8 said “why can’t him come again? He has to work?” I answered, “well, daddy often says that he has to work, but I really don’t know.”

What is everyone’s opinion on this by the way- letting the children know about a plan knowing that H very likely will cancel? I figured that if H sets a time and tells me with a degree of certainty, I will convey that message to the kids. And if he doesn’t show up, the kids will learn that dad’s words are not reliable. I’m not going to cover for him. But if he says “I will try to do xyz” , I probably won’t tell the kids that. It is also heartbreaking to see them disappointed.

—————————————————————

Other updates: I had a girls night out this past weekend to celebrate my birthday! I haven’t gone out and stayed past 12 in forever. We went to a bar before dinner, and it was very interesting because after we got our cocktails we were asked to put our masks on per government ordinance. It was funny. A bunch of people hanging out at a bar trying to drink while keeping our masks on. After dinner we went to another bar. Then we went to a club. We had our temp checked and hand sanitizer before going inside. Gosh I felt old. By the end of dinner I really just wanted to go home and sleep lol. Also mixing drinks throughout the night did not help either. Next time I will stick to home after dinner... sick


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Hi

Glad you got to go out with your friends..
It was such a lifesaver for me to have some fun during the crises

That's a tough call about the kids
of course you have to make your own choice with it, but here's my 2 cents

If H cancels a lot, I would consider not telling them in advance, and when H actually shows just surprise them

I never put my xh down
I told them dad really wants to see you and loves you but, he he cant make it

after a while I told more truth and things became clearer...this was going to be a long road
and when it was safe to do so with XH
Sometimes people go through struggles in life, and crises and its not about them
it is about his issues


Main thing is I never put xh down to them
I tried to explain truth where they would understand and it would not push H away more
The other thing is keep any expectations low that H will actually show for anything and go about your life
If he shows its a plus and if not no stress just another Day in MLC gone


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Originally Posted by DnJ
I understand you have no really concrete answers regarding Dad. However, you do know more than you may give yourself credit for. You have seen alien H’s behaviour, his outburst, his depressed self (I live in a dark tiny room for example), his confusion, the blowing up of his life, and so on. Do you believe in MLC?... Tell your kids. Explain to them.


I just realized today that I somehow missed seeing your response! Must have happened while I was writing my last update.
I never thought about explaining MLC to the kids before. I believe H is in crisis. But I don't want MLC to be a justification for his actions. I'm not sure what I should communicate to my kids. For them to understand MLC....is the point so they can forgive? Honestly sometimes I feel I know so little about this new H that I don't even know if I am doing the right diagnosis. I also worry about how H would react if he hears from the children that I said he has depression/mental issues.


Today H wrote in his email to me (we've been emailing back and forth few times a month about finances/scheduling) more of "we've had problems with our sex life for years.....don't blame me for situations for your own making...." type of stuff. I have called him out on his bs in a previous email. but this time I just said that we'll have to agree to disagree. I know I don't have to defend my truth..it is just tiring to even have to listen/read these accusations. It must be even more tiring for him to deny himself the truth and stick to his own narrative?

Anyways, I've been listening to The Chick's new album. Gaslighter is currently my favorite song. lol.


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Hey wooba

I see some similarities for us. I wouldn't say that my h is an alcoholic, but in the last 18 minths he has drunk a lot, he used fo tell me its because of me and as he couldn't cope with our marriage breakdown. And that he has been living it all this time and obv now over it.

I truly don't know whats worse, h not being in their lives or like my h implying that he can take the kids away and they are better off with him because apparently i emotionally suppress then and they flourish with him. I

All i can say that im worried so much that this will get nasty between us. He is adamant that he is the sane one in this and that i have had a mini breakdown. Erm says the man how wanted to commit suicide and from what he tells me tried to.

Re kids- mine are 5 and 6 and i try to be honest with them, as in sometime i tell them i simply dont know if their dad is coming or not. Its tricky with my sitch as the lids dont know yet.

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Good Morning wooba

Originally Posted by wooba
I never thought about explaining MLC to the kids before. I believe H is in crisis. But I don't want MLC to be a justification for his actions. I'm not sure what I should communicate to my kids. For them to understand MLC....is the point so they can forgive? Honestly sometimes I feel I know so little about this new H that I don't even know if I am doing the right diagnosis. I also worry about how H would react if he hears from the children that I said he has depression/mental issues.

MLC is not justification for H’s / Dad’s actions; it is explanation.

It’s normal to not consider explaining MLC to our children. Parents do tend to protect. Children are much more accepting and strong then we usually give them credit for.

Whatever is revealed or explained does need to be delivered age appropriately.

You do have a good point with kids telling Dad what you said. And MLCer’s hate to be diagnosed.

You believe H is in crisis, and can see the changes and the alien behaviour. Children are rather observant and probably see even more than you do, but with less understanding. That is what you should explain.

Encourage their questions, concerns, fears, etc. and rationalize those. Explain to them.

Now this is pretty wide open, and one has no idea where this conversation will go or what subject might be brought up. That’s ok. You don’t need to have all the answers immediately. Just let them know that is a very good question, let me think about it, and we will discuss it tomorrow evening (or in a few days, if you are inquiring here for suggestions. There is a lots of wisdom in the group think here, however it does have a communication lag at times)

Dad’s depression, or more accurately his behaviour will be a subject. Discuss Dad’s behaviour. What they see, how they see it, what they think drives it. And always ensure they know Dad loves them. He may have difficulty expressing it right now, but it is there.

Is the point so kids can forgive? Yes. As well as to accept. To not blame themselves. To be happy. To understand and be compassionate.

In some situations, mine for example, the kids become LBC - left behind children. Their Mom lashed out at them, and threw them away. Most situations the kids see more parental fighting and confused behaviour from the MLC parent. Missed deadline, appointments, birthdays, and so on; it takes on the look of uncaring from their Mom/Dad, not so much aggressive abandonment. We deal with the hand that is dealt, and explain accordingly. We are the strong stable parent.

Please correct me if I am wrong. You have three sons, 11,10, and 8? My children were older during their Mom’s exodus. And I noticed differences between my three boys and my daughter’s reactions. My daughter lost her role model, for one.

I do not have all the answers, and stumbled plenty on my way through this. I made some blunders, and my “better” moments outshine and out count those by far. My situation blew up rather spectacularly which necessitated quicker explanations and more direct seeking of answers. I think you have more time, and can proceed at a better pace.

You can ask me anything you like wooba. We are all upon a path we didn’t choose. A path, that is an incredible opportunity.

D


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Hi wooba, you are doing so well balancing your emotions while also making sure you are doing the best for your kids!

Originally Posted by wooba
he’s always had his idiosyncrasies. But when we had love, trust, and respect for each other, as family I accept those idiosyncrasies and took them for part of who he is. I did not like them at times, but overall they were within my threshold. I think now it’s more than me having my rosed color glasses off. He has become more and more strange.

This is a strange thing to watch and difficult to digest. But I think you are so right with the threshold...It’s give and take. We all have and do things that make us who we are And we learn to look past or embrace certain things. But this MLC behaviour is not that. Sometimes I try to flip my mind and be thankful for a bit of the crazy behaviours so as to not get gaslit by H! My H too has amped up the strange.
Originally Posted by wooba
I teared up a little after seeing him. I don’t wish him ill, and seeing someone I loved falling into pieces is very sad. But I reminded myself it’s not my problem anymore. I will not overextend myself. Plus he’s went through this sad-I-am-so-unwell-to-go-to-work phase before. Who knows what his deal really is.

I REALLY struggle with this too. My inner circle can not figure out why I don’t show anger, how I haven’t lost it on him yet. But I too just feel sadness. Sad for how lost he is and that he thinks being so awful to me is the solution (or at least that I’m the problem). You said the magic words “it’s not my problem anymore.” Still difficult when H is in the house and it’s all happening all under your nose.

I also like Gerda’s words stating “remember what a normal-minded father would do so you can stay clear headed.” I think this helps in anyone’s situation...just replace with normal-minded H!

Take care (((wooba)))

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Gigi - Don't worry for something that hasn't happened yet, but it doesn't to be prepared! I think at 5 & 6 they still understand very little. My youngest is 8 and he didn't seem to have a clue even if he's heard conversations I've had with the older brothers.

DnJ - wow, yes you got their ages correct! (I can't even do that sometimes lol)
Well tonight at dinner I dipped my toes in the water by starting a conversation about their dad's visit today. Just generally asking if they enjoyed seeing dad. (H dropped by for maybe 10 mins to pick up something) They did, but they didn't express much beyond that. Why is it so hard to get boys to talk about their feelings and thoughts? I asked if they thought last time when we all went out for lunch with dad that dad seemed a bit off. They said no. S8 said "What does "off" mean?" lol. I said, "I thought he seemed a bit sad. Also when he said he was living in a dark tiny room. Maybe that is how he's feeling mentally also." Again, not much feedback from the kids on that topic. Later S11 did ask about whether dad is still "making money for us". I explained that when we were together that I was the one handling the finances. but now dad no longer trusts me to have access to the money (S10 said "What!") so we are still trying to figure that out.

S11 did ask here and there recently about the upcoming holidays. "What are we going to do for Halloween?" Me: we can till go trick or treating! "Is dad going to help us with decorating the xmas tree this year?" Me: I'm not sure.

Kindly- Yes, it's hard to be angry, or hate somebody when you know that they are not normal. Anger and hate don't do anything for us anyway!


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Good Morning wooba

Well done!

You dipped your toes in, just fine.

Continue being strong and stable. This is building the foundation of safe and trusted communication for your kids with you.

Originally Posted by wooba
Why is it so hard to get boys to talk about their feelings and thoughts?

Lol. Ain’t that the truth.

With my daughter, I found I didn’t speak “girl”. My daughter and I spoke differently. As a suddenly single Dad, I did learn how, eventually, and am not bilingual by any stretch. D18 sees and feels the world very differently than me.

Boys do mature slower than girls. Typically girl’s emotions get explored and discovered early on. Boys more focus and explore their physical attributes, how fast they are, how strong, how high the can climb, and so on.

Intellectually, both boys and girls, can focus, and excel. In my experience, girls are better at focusing, boys seem to get distracted easier.

Of course that is just a generalization, an overall simplification. Everyone explores all aspects of themselves and their environment; both boys and girls. My daughter did plenty of racing around to see how fast she was also. smile

Growing into teens and young adults, boys and girls equalize. The boy’s maturing growth spurt happening later. Again my experience, boys making bigger strides as teens as they catch up, while girls continue along at their already good steady rate. It was interesting to see that unfold under my roof.

As pre-teen boys, your sons have emotions, and don’t focus upon them all that much. And for young kids, their emotions are immature. Emotions popping into existence and fleeting away quickly. That is perfectly normal, and usually rather aggravating for the adult wonder how do I get through to this kid. Lol.

I think you’ll be fine learning how to speak “boy”. As a partnership, husband and wife could and would handle and speak to things as a couple. Each reinforcing and strengthen where the other requires support. Now, the LBS steps up, and fills in - rather nicely if I say so myself. You can do this, without a doubt.

“Why is it so hard to get boys to talk about their feelings and thoughts?”

A mindset I found helpful: Work on less “getting” them to talk, and more inspiring them to open up.

People, even kids, maybe especially kids, talk when they feel like it. Note, feel like it.

Sure they will answer questions when asked, but they will converse when they feel like they want to. Same with pretty much anything when you think about it. For example, homework is such a chore, until they find a passion, a feeling, a desire, and then look out - when someone is inspired, wow the heights they can reach.

(For myself, young DnJ, grade 10 math. I had a teacher who reached me, or I grow up enough to be reached - either way. That was my educational turning point, that class. It was geometry and we were allowed to work ahead; and I excelled at that kind of learning. I had no idea. smile By the end of grade ten, I had completed everything in the math textbooks, all questions, all chapters, everything. And I had completed the grade eleven math textbook as well. After that, math and science really took off. I was that guy that handed in test after test scoring 100%. Which continued into my vocational training and schooling. Woah, bit of a tangent there. Lol Tangent, geometry. Giggle)

Kids are egocentric. Their world revolves around them. The story they tell themselves is about them. Perfectly normal and fine. Empathy, seeing things from someone else’s point of view, takes time to develop. Your boys may not, probably will not, give much thought to how Dad is feeling. It’s more how Dad treats them, that they will think about. In time their own empathy will grow.

I think your boys are doing really well. S8’s inquiry into what does “off” mean and your explanation was just right. S11’s more grown up askIng if is Dad still making money for us, your explanation, and S10’s shock at Dad’s untrusting attitude towards you, were also good. These questions will come at you sideways, they are what is important to them, at that moment. You did very well.

The boys wondering about Halloween and Christmas, I think are good indicator they are processing things fine. They are looking forward to the events / holiday, and realize that things have and are changing.

People will forget what you do for them, but they never forget how you made them feel.

That is very true for children.

Kind, patient, understanding. Your kids will continue to feel safe and secure with you, and they will open up.

How they feel towards Dad, is mostly out of your control. You can listen and be there for them. Validate and very gentle influence and guide.

A suggestion:

S11: Is dad going to help us with decorating the xmas tree this year?

Me: I'm not sure. That a really good question; I don’t know what Dad’s plans are. What do you think about that? Do you want Dad to help?

And go from there. Maybe S11 wants Dad there. Or maybe he doesn’t. And what about supper, presents, walking up early, and so on. The possible paths get numerous very quickly.

Boys are better reached intellectually. The best seems to be physically actually, if you rip around with them, get their muscles working, and blood flowing, the inherent barriers come down. Visual this, me and S19, sitting at the base of the tree we just fell, cut up, and loaded into the truck. Hot, sweaty, exhausted. I ask what he thinks about OM and Mom. He is too tired to keep it in check, so it is easier to just blurt it all out.

However, intellectually is more accessible than an exhausting physical work out. Asking how boys think about something, rather than what they feel about it, usually garners a better conversation. Their feeling will come out, just not by the direct approach.

“What do think about Dad coming over for Christmas?” vs “How do you feel about Dad coming over at Christmas?”

The latter will get a shrug and a whatever; for it is the truth, their feelings. The first brings in the logistics of it all. The problem solving, where we would all sit, how things would go down, and so on. Boys get inspired solving problems. Boys vs girls.

If I was speaking to my daughter, the second version would be the one I would use. I would need to use. Most of her things in life are “I feel ____”, while the boys are “I think ____”. Our recent office chair shopping (if you are reading along on my thread). D18: I feel this is good chair. S19: This is a good solid chair, with plenty of adjustments, and it is on sale.

Same chair. smile

Just a few ideas for you to consider.

You are doing really well. I’m proud of you. This is no easy thing to open one’s self up too for explanation. Your kids have one fine Mom!

D


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Thank you DnJ for all the suggestions. my latest challenge in the world of boys was S11 coming home asking me, "My friend said this word today at school....."orgasm"....what does it mean??" few weeks ago it was "porn." I was not ready to start sex ed this early, but apparently kids these days come into contact with this type of stuff a lot earlier than we did.

H called today to tell me that he's moving to a new apartment. He's moving in this weekend, and said "once it's ready, you and the boys can come visit." Then I asked if he wants to speak to the kids. He said sure. I put him on speaker phone as he's speaking to the kids. He sounded okay, clear-minded, normal. Then when he was talking to S11, S11 told him he joined the model UN club at school, and H was like "yeah I know all about model UN, I will help you with whatever you need. It's like cheating, you have a lawyer as a dad. your friends don't, that's sad. haha." I was like wtf is this I'm hearing??

After the call I sat with my feelings a little bit, debating whether I should address that to the boys. Eventually I did. I told the kids that I thought what dad said was a little mean. I told them that your profession does not define you. They can be proud to have a lawyer dad, but it does not make them better than anyone else. There's nothing "sad" about it.

That was not badmouthing their dad right?

Anyways. I think whatever crisis H is in is multifaceted. Childhood trauma, FOO issues, identity crisis, alcoholism, depression....etc all tied together. He constantly has to boost his own ego. He thinks his field of law is superior to all others. He refused to take a lower paying job even though he hates his current job. everyone he works with is an idiot. the list goes on and on......how messed up.

Well guys, it's been a year. I've come a long way. A year go my world fell apart, and I was living in so much fear. I never imagined that I would be where I am today. the road ahead is still full of uncertainty, and I of course still have all those feelings sometimes - fear, anxiety, nervousness....but they do not rule over me. I feel incredibly blessed each day to have friends and family behind me, my three rascals next to me, and me - my imperfect, incredibly strong, amazing self working so hard for ME.

Lastly, thanks to the people here on this forum for all the wisdom and for telling stories that are even crazier than mine. wink


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He constantly has to boost his own ego. He thinks his field of law is superior to all others. He refused to take a lower paying job even though he hates his current job. everyone he works with is an idiot. the list goes on and on.


Sounds like an insecure narcissist. My ex was a bit like that. This type of narcissist isn't because they think they're so great but because they secretly fear they are not. So they feed off the approval and adulation of others, care desperately how they appear to others, care for you only if you make them "look good".

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Originally Posted by Wooba
Well guys, it's been a year. I've come a long way. A year go my world fell apart, and I was living in so much fear. I never imagined that I would be where I am today. the road ahead is still full of uncertainty, and I of course still have all those feelings sometimes - fear, anxiety, nervousness....but they do not rule over me. I feel incredibly blessed each day to have friends and family behind me, my three rascals next to me, and me - my imperfect, incredibly strong, amazing self working so hard for ME.

Oh Wooba, what a great post. I'm so happy for you. You sound so strong and secure and healthy and GOOD. Reading this is the first time I've wish I'd just booted H to the curb the first time around... it has also been a year for me, just over a year since H told me about his "emotional connection" to someone else, and here I am basically in the same boat I was a year ago.

I don't think you're throwing H under the bus by identifying when he says things that aren't OK. If you were together and he said that, you would have called him out, right? You don't want your kids thinking that is OK. You might also ask them to think about how someone whose dad was not a lawyer might feel if they heard him say that. It is good to be proud of yourself and proud of what you do, but it isn't okay to make other people feel bad.

You're doing so well-- it is a great example for the rest of us. xoxo


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Originally Posted by wooba
Well guys, it's been a year. I've come a long way. A year ago my world fell apart, and I was living in so much fear. I never imagined that I would be where I am today. the road ahead is still full of uncertainty, and I of course still have all those feelings sometimes - fear, anxiety, nervousness....but they do not rule over me.

You are doing very well wooba!

It’s amazing how a full year can feel so long yet so short at the same time. BD seems like yesterday, but I can’t believe it’s been a long year and I too feel like may22 regarding sitting in the same boat.

I love your above quote because as much as mine and many others situations feel like they’ve gone nowhere ....we have.

Like you, I can’t believe where I was and how far I’ve come with very little progress or movement from H. I didn’t think I would be able to feel “normal” again, or get through a day without a breakdown of some sort. Yet here we are, thanks to so many on this site, leaving the pieces where they lay and dusting ourselves off to make a better us!

Great stuff wooba!!

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Yay, wooba! A year--a long way. I don't even know if a year post-BD is the same measurement as a year in any other sense. It's good to read that even though the fear, anxiety, nerves are still there sometimes, they don't overrule you. Thanks for the support and empathy you've shared with me over the last year!


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H told me he moved to a new apartment. Gave me his address (!!!). It's right by a gym and a grocery store. "That's convenient!" I commented. We have a school event this Saturday. H told me he would come over first and we'll go together. I spent few seconds contemplating why. Does he want to keep up the front to others that we're still together? We haven't been in the car together since....March? Strange, but oh well. I agreed to it, because I really don't care one way or the other.

Lately I've been thinking about my next "move." But often times I find myself back to square one, reminding myself of the "illusion of action." What little interaction we have with each other is mostly limited to finances and kids' scheduling. But even then I find it too much. If I could, I would rather not have any contact at all. I feel like any mental capacity I spend thinking about issues related to him is a waste of my time and energy (here I am doing more of it).

Financially, I am at his mercy every month since July. I would ask him to transfer funds, and I would have to wait and wait and wait to see whether he would. This does not feel good. But the alternative is I file for D and get very little under the law here. So I'm trying suck it up and see how things play out (still no d papers from him).

My weekend tutor job resumed, so every Sunday H would come over to watch the kids when I leave the house. It's less hassle for me when I don't have to drop the kids off with him (not that he offered anyway), but it bugs me a little. I'm accepting this status quo because I think once a week it gives the children an opportunity to see their dad in a controlled environment. But this feels like crossing a boundary to me. H still has access to my house. coming and going as he pleases. I feel like I'm being too nice to him by allowing this arrangement.

Anyways, so I took a step today to let my agent know that I'm in the market for another place. Hopefully I can find somewhere that is closer to school and less expensive than my current rental. Realistically, I need to prepare to cut my expenses as if I'm getting minimal support from H. And with a new place, I will not hand a key to H.

I'm also thinking ahead about the holidays. Would I want H to put up the tree in my house for the kids' sake? (that's always been his job) How are we going to do the separating holidays thing? I'm thinking about asking him to take all the boxes for the tree. He can put it up in his place. Thinking about this stuff brings me some anxiety.

Lastly, I do still think about how fortunate I am regardless of all this bs with H. In my home state people are either fleeing from wildfires or stuck at home due to covid. People around the world are fighting to live a decent life. or just a life, period. Keeping things in perspective brings me some peace.


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S10 told me that when they went out to have lunch with H yesterday, S10 asked dad about the whole money situation - "why did you shut down mom's access to your bank account?" and apparently H got super mad and commented "why did she tell you that" etc.

I would like to think that I'm trying very hard not to say anything bad about their father in front of them. The back story on that was I have to work sometimes at home now, and the boys see it too. Before I was able to give them my attention almost 100%, whereas now it's definitely different.

so one day, the convo went something like this -

S: "Why do you need to work now?"
Me: "I need to make money!"
S: "Why? Isn't dad making money?"
Me: "Yes, he is. But I can't rely on him anymore."
S: "Why? Is he not giving you any money?"
Me: explaining the whole I had access to H's account but that's no longer the case thing
S just responded with a confused face.

Anyway, so I'm sort of expecting at some point H's going to raise h*ll over this issue on me again. How should I respond? Do I even need to explain the back story to him? Or just not engage because I don't owe him an explanation?
Do I still need to validate at this point? "I'm sorry you feel that way, I did not tell them about it to hurt you."

I was thinking about something like "it's the truth. But I didn't tell them to hurt you. There are plenty of other truths I could tell the boys but I have chosen not to. I didn't tell them that you're an alcoholic. I didn't tell them that you refused to talk to my parents. I didn't tell them that others have seen you with another woman."

S10 actually asked me that one day, "Do you think dad is dating someone else?"
I told him I have no idea. Dad is an adult, I cannot control his behavior, and whatever he does he will have to be responsible for it.



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Hi, Wooba. Don't get to the point of having a conversation with him where he can comment on what you do or don't say about him. Just write everything down in case you need it for court.

If you really had to say something, I would just say, "That's not what happened but there is no need to talk about it. The boys just see that I have to work now. Sorry but I have to run and make dinner."

You are still thinking that you should justify yourself or explain yourself.

You could just as easily tell your H, "I just flew here from Venus," as explain the truth and he'd still have the exact same awful idea about you. Just think of him as a talking doll. Wait for the doll to shut off.

(Your real H may still exist somewhere inside the talking doll. I am not saying he won't ever come back, I don't know your sitch. But he's not here now and you can't talk to him right now, he is locked in there somewhere. So don't get confused by what the doll says just because the doll looks like your H and expects you to respond to his ranting.)

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Hello wooba

S10’s question to Dad was right on point. Children are rather direct, and can see through more than we give them credit for at times.

When discussing this situation with your inquisitive sons remember to answer their questions and keep editorializing to a minimum and to the point being discussed. Of course the are times and situations you will need to expand upon this.

S: "Why do you need to work now?"
Me: "I need to make money!"
S: "Why? Isn't dad making money?"
Me: "Yes, he is. But I can't rely on him anymore."

No need for anything after “but”. S10 isn’t asking about Dad’s reliability. Son most likely would have, which then you could explore, with him leading.

S: "Why? Is he not giving you any money?"
Me: Dad has bills at his place, and he and I are now managing our finances differently.

This gives an answer, provides assurance that things are and will continue to be paid for, and does not bring into question from son’s point of view his parents’ abilities to provide or be there for him. His questions and view is about his world, not your’s.

As for H’s getting mad and possibly blowing up. “H, yes, I am sorry about that. Son was asking why we earn money and separate accounts came up. He is just a bright and inquisitive boy is all.”

If H gives you any static about you shouldn’t talk about stuff. You tell him “I do not, and will not, lie to the children. Our sons have hearts and minds of their own and are pretty darn aware of what is going on.”

Originally Posted by wooba
S10 actually asked me that one day, "Do you think dad is dating someone else?"
I told him I have no idea. Dad is an adult, I cannot control his behavior, and whatever he does he will have to be responsible for it.

That is a very good answer, with an excellent moral explanation and lesson included. Age appropriate too, in case you were wondering. Well done!

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Originally Posted by Gerda
If you really had to say something, I would just say, "That's not what happened but there is no need to talk about it. The boys just see that I have to work now. Sorry but I have to run and make dinner."

This is really helpful, thank you. I had this in my back pocket yesterday in case H was going to bring it up (so far our arrangement has been that he comes here once a week to watch the kids for 2 hours when I go tutor). But he actually waited until later to write me an email about it.

H wrote that it was unnecessary to tell the kids about the account situation and I was stressing our boys out. Wow. I really just wanted to fire back and said WHO do YOU think is causing all this stress???

And last week when H was here, he told me that we should speak to the kids together about our situation. I said what about it? What do you want to say? He said, just talking to them about our separation...I said, I don't think it's necessary. We already did that. (of course, this is the memory black out part he does not remember whenever I bring it up) But if you insist on having a conversation with them together again, I will participate.

In the same email, he wrote that "You seemed not to care, because you've already told them as you said. But I'd like to still talk to them together."

I don't mind doing it, but I seriously don't know what the point is. I told the boys about H's suggestion and asked if they would like that, and they said no. lol. I'm a bit hesitant, as we are obviously not a team anymore and I wouldn't want to sit through a conversation knowing that he may bring up things I do not agree with, and I would probably challenge him in front of the children.

DnJ, thank you for all the suggestions. I think at the time when I was explaining it to S10, I definitely let some of the frustration over money with H affect how I answered him. I'm constantly trying to strike a balance between telling the truth and not ruining H's image for the kids' sake. I don't want to keep H's secrets for him. And I want to let my sons know what kind of behavior is acceptable and what is not right (ex: H calling the waiter stupid in front of the children). This has not been easy....


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I waited a few days to cool off before I responded to H’s email. I actually wrote, “I apologized that it made you feel uncomfortable.” And of course, he fired back with more accusations (I’m concerned that you’re saying inappropriate things to the kids) and spite. Somehow I expected him to react differently, but oh well. Lesson learned. No expectations. Do not engage.

And about talking to the children, he actually gave me a list of points he’d like to tell them (Ex: We're your parents and we have your welfare as a key priority - we will always care for you). Which took me by surprise. When we had this conversation last time with the kids back in January, he sat there said nothing except to tell S11 to stop crying and that he will still pay for things. Maybe that was such a horrible experience that he had to block it out of his memory.

I feel a bit bleh lately. Maybe I need to up my GAL game.


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Hi Wooba,

I know you don't take his spewing seriously, but it still can't be fun. (((wooba))) hang in there.

I *guess* it is a good thing he's finally thinking about the appropriate things to say to your kids. the previous conversation still blows my mind. I would block it from my mind too if I were your H.

How are things with the virus in your area? Are you able to GAL? How's your business doing? Can your kids go to real school? I remember when you told us way back when that your kids were home from school and I was like HOW are you able to handle that and everything else.... and now it is the status quo. So crazy.


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Here in my country it’s almost as if we’re living in an alternate reality from everywhere else. Covid numbers are low. Everyone has been pretty good with wearing masks both indoor and out. We can go to school, go to a bar, socialize etc. The dad of S11’s new classmate is a doctor who got summoned back from overseas by the government to work on the vaccine, which is pretty cool.

My business has been doing well. I’ve been thinking about getting a 9-5 full time job versus doing what I’m doing. Running my business obviously is more flexible and it gives me the ability to pick up my kids and chauffeuring them to their activities. But the only thing is I kind of want contact with other human beings other than parents and teachers (my business has to do with education). But I’m kind of an introvert anyway, maybe I wouldn’t like a 9-5 job being forced to interact with people. Ha. I don’t know, just something that crossed my mind. I don’t think I’m ready to let the kids go and be a full time working mom yet anyway.

A mom friend (who knows about my sitch) told me today that she heard from her daughter that S10 at school mentioned to his table group friends that dad hasn’t been home much. Another girl commented “aww! Poor S10!!” I asked S10 about it, and why he brought it up to his friends. He shrugged and said, “I don’t know, I just wanted to say it.” I told him “I’m happy for you that you feel like you could share that with your friends. When I have something on my mind and I want to get it off my chest, I talk to my friends about it also.”

I feel like it’s a good sign that he is not treating it as a secret.


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Definitely! My son has never told any of his friends, just carries all that weight.


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Originally Posted by wooba
A mom friend (who knows about my sitch) told me today that she heard from her daughter that S10 at school mentioned to his table group friends that dad hasn’t been home much. Another girl commented “aww! Poor S10!!” I asked S10 about it, and why he brought it up to his friends. He shrugged and said, “I don’t know, I just wanted to say it.” I told him “I’m happy for you that you feel like you could share that with your friends. When I have something on my mind and I want to get it off my chest, I talk to my friends about it also.”

I feel like it’s a good sign that he is not treating it as a secret.


Wooba, this is such a good sign from S10! It shows his emotional resiliency. He does not have to live with this big, dark, secret about his home life. He is choosing to be vulnerable and put it out in the world so he is less burdened. I would encourage him to tell anyone he wants to talk about it with. I know in my own sitch with a same-aged child, he shared it with his friends, who huddled around him and hugged him and said they felt bad for him, but would always be there to listen to him. It was so helpful to my S. Also, I think kids are so much more empathetic and evolved than we are, so they are good support for each other.

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Good Morning wooba

It is a very good thing, son not treating his feelings and upheaval as a secret.

My two who were still in school, at the time D15 and S17, asked the teacher for permission and then stood up in front of their classmates and told them what had happened over the Thanksgiving Day weekend. Not only was that brave, it also stopped rumours; it’s a small town and people talk. And Mom was flaunting her new wonderful life rather aggressively.

Good for S10!

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Gerda- my eldest is like your son. It’s hard for him to show vulnerability.

Sage- at first I was worried that kids can also be pretty mean these days. But I’m glad S10’s conversation with his friends went well.

DnJ- Wow. That was incredible brave of them to do that. You sure raised them well!

Update: H and I sat down with the kids last weekend to talk about our divorce. Apparently H actually wrote a note on his phone so he wouldn’t forget all the points he wanted to explain to the kids. He did most of the talking. It went well, all pretty standard stuff. The kids didn’t say much. H told the kids he’s getting his new place ready, and maybe they can go visit him when it’s all organized.

I haven’t initiated small talk with H in awhile. And I think he senses it and steers clear of my way generally when we’re in the same space. But that day I casually asked a few details about his new place (how big, is it furnished...etc) and I felt like he immediately wanted to engage in small talk and kind of opened up. He answered my questions and complained (of course, 99% of things out of his mouth is complaint) the bed there was uncomfortable. And I swear for the past 4 days he’s been either calling me or texting me. I don’t pick up all the calls. I usually read the texts the next day. He wants to dinner together this upcoming Friday (with kids along). I told him I’ll have to think about it. It’s all kind of strange but I’m not holding my breath for any big change on his part.


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I just finished reading a book a good friend recommended to me - “Healing from Hidden Abuse.”

I’m still not so clear whether I was a victim/survivor of emotional/psychological abuse. H could be narcissistic. But I don’t remember him being like that until the recent years. Frankly I didn’t start journaling until BD happened, what has happened before I have long forgotten. Reading it really confused me though. Has H always used toxic tactics like these but I just didn’t notice until now? Or did the gaslighting and everything start when he’s in MLC?

Also is it a good thing to have compassion? Why have empathy toward someone who does not have empathy(I don’t know if he does or not). I used to feel bad for H because of his childhood trauma. I justified his behavior (which normally would be unacceptable to me) with his past history. I’m having conflicting feelings about having compassion vs reserving anger to keep a distance to H’s toxicity.

I’m having mixed feelings because H as been acting “nice.” And his nicety for some reason makes me uncomfortable. Also with the holidays coming up, I have to decide whether to draw the clear boundary of celebrating separately or otherwise.

I also went to church for the first time at Sunday. The pastor spoke of forgiveness. I pictured myself telling H “I’m sorry for the pain I’ve caused you. Also I’d like you to know that I forgive you for all the pain you caused me.” It didn’t feel authentic to me. I guess I have not forgiven H.

Other than that, I didn’t really feel enlightened or anything. My kids went to Sunday school and S11 said he never want to go back again - “mom, I’m not a Christian. Are you turning into one of those nutters who are trying to convert everyone into Christians?” I just told him it was rude for him to say that and he needs to keep an open mind.


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Sometimes it takes some real time and space to see our partners as they really were.

SOME MLCers were excellent spouses before and just look completely wacko during their crisis. But many of them did have the seeds of their madness present all along and we just compensated for them. It took me some time after my ex split to really realize what a narcissist he had always been. He was a "benign" narcissist - but our marriage worked as long as it did mostly because I was so accommodating. WE did the things HE liked to do, socialized with the people HE liked to hang out with, but as long as I accommodated that and made him look good, things were good. When I got ill with a chronic thyroid problem that sapped my strength, and later gained a little menopausal weight (we're talking 20-30 lbs, nothing egregious - actually many men thought I was sexier because I had more curves) I no longer reflected wll on HIM and he started to stray (or should I say resumed straying, as I had already forgiven him one episode of cheating early in our marriage).

His behavior since the divorce regarding our adult children has just made his narcissism more visible to me. It was always there, I just adjusted around it so it wasn't as visible. Sometimes you have to take off the rose colored glasses and look at the earlier years of your marriage to see what was or wasn't there.

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Good Morning wooba

I think the question of, was my spouse a narcissist, comes up for most LBS. Some were and are. Most, I believe were not. When looking for answers and understanding, be careful not to rewrite your own history.

Rose coloured glasses is a real thing. It takes time remove them, and then more time to see clearly.

Without doubt, MLCers are emotionally troubled individuals. The long ago traumas they suffered leave marks and scars. As those buried pains surface, more and more emotional behaviours and character flaws surface. Usually the previous 24 months before BD has many signs and personality changes, we are just not aware, nor even knew about MLC, so these go mostly unnoticed, unacknowledged, and swept under the rug.

People in crisis need to grow up from their emotional stunting. Many do display immature behaviours throughout their adult life. At times almost naive and innocent, to the egocentric-ness the young. Of course, these people are not stupid, and people can hide things very well, adapting to fit in. However, eventually, boom; it cannot remain contained forever. Their unrecognized feelings of pain and anguish demand full attention.

Everyone, MLCer, LBS, person down the street, every single person has seeds of good and bad, virtuous and vindictive, divine and devilish; it matters which is nurtured. That which grows, is that which is watered.

Narcissist or not? Does the label matter? Can people change? These are questions which each of us find our answers and our beliefs for; our convictions and headings along this path, along our life’s path.

Originally Posted by wooba
Also is it a good thing to have compassion? Why have empathy toward someone who does not have empathy(I don’t know if he does or not).

Compassion is a wonderful feeling/belief. It leads to being able to understand and even forgive. Goodness beget goodness, evil begets evil. Live with compassion, the world has enough hatred and evil lurking in it.

A peaceful and gentle life exudes compassion and kindness. Start by closing the cupboard door gently; our physical actions reinforce our thoughts and feelings, which in turn reinforce beliefs and convictions.

Having empathy is not towards someone; IMHO empathy pulls in towards you. Empathy is the ability to feel someone else’s emotions, to see things from their side, from their perspective. Empathy is emotional understanding - of someone else.

Why have empathy? To stand in someone else’s shoes. To see the world from different perspectives. To see the bigger picture. It doesn’t matter if H can empathize or not - it matters if you can.

I’ve found empathy to be a calming influence. People who are extremely passionate about their side of something are not being empathic, for they cannot see, nor feel the other side’s view. Empathy doesn’t allow for such a single sided ego driven mindset. Right and wrong, good and bad - those get hazy and the lines between them blur somewhat. That doesn’t mean one does not have their own values and beliefs, it is that you also believe others can have their beliefs as well, and both can be, and are, right.

MLCer’s cannot empathize while within their crisis. No one can feel someone else’s feeling while tore apart by their own. This holds true for the MLCer and the LBS. We, however, are not in a crisis. We are grieving, and moving forward; choose noble and good headings.

Originally Posted by wooba
I used to feel bad for H because of his childhood trauma. I justified his behavior (which normally would be unacceptable to me) with his past history. I’m having conflicting feelings about having compassion vs reserving anger to keep a distance to H’s toxicity.

Feeling bad for our suffering and lost spouses is normal. Sympathy and pity. That is different than empathy.

Sympathy is feeling sorry for someone - “There there, at least you were married.” If the words “at least” are used it is sympathy, which is a bit standoffish and reserved.

Empathy sits down with the person and listens. Empathy gives a handhold to stand. Empathy walks with the person. You’ve been there, and know how much the fire burns and hurts. And yet you return and walk right in and lend an ear, a shoulder, a hand. “Divorce feels like being gutted. It’s a horrible process.”

Compassion has an indifferent quality to it. It is kind and when required seemingly almost uncaring, which is paradoxically not the actual case. “There are two paths to divorce/separation, the emotional side and the business side, keep them separate.”

MLC is terrible. Boundaries to keep the toxicity away are necessary. They also allow compassion remain. Anger is normal and a healthy part of grief. For some the anger is short lived, for others it last for a while.

It takes time. Realize this shall pass, it is only temporary. Feel it, and let it go.

Originally Posted by wooba
I pictured myself telling H “I’m sorry for the pain I’ve caused you. Also I’d like you to know that I forgive you for all the pain you caused me.” It didn’t feel authentic to me. I guess I have not forgiven H.

Forgiveness is feelings, thoughts, beliefs all wrapped up into a way of life. It is very freeing, and very good for one’s soul and heart.

You need not tell H you’ve forgiven him. Forgiving H is more for you not hm. As counterintuitive as that currently feels.

Don’t worry, it will feel authentic sooner than you believe. It’s difficult to gauge one’s progress from how you are feeling.

Originally Posted by wooba
Other than that, I didn’t really feel enlightened or anything.

You are asking good questions, seeking knowledge and understanding, pondering, empathizing. I have full confidence in your revelations and the enlightenment you will find.

Keep walking the good path.

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Narcissist or not? Does the label matter? Can people change?


In my case the label does matter a lot, because it explains so much of the dysfunctional behavior regarding our children since the divorce. It also makes it easier to deal with or maneuver around him knowing this about him. For instance, I don't bother anymore to go to him for help with anything to do with our adult kids because it's going to a dry well; the best I can do is try to maneuver to make him think something is helpful to HIM or would make HIM look good if he did it.

Can narcissists change? Not impossible but the change rate for personality disorders is very low because they don't usually think they have a problem.

However - it IS important to note that many previously normal spouses can LOOK like they have a personality disorder during MLC. It's important to base your assessment not on how they are NOW, but on an honest look at how they were before. My ex definitely had a midlife crisis, but prior to that he was chronically dissatisfied, critical of others, intermittently unfaithful (probably more than I knew at the time, now that I look back at certain suspicious incidents that I rationalized away at the time). And as stated, things in our life together always revolved around what HE wanted to do, in part because he would whine about it if I made plans, say, with a couple he didn't enjoy (or think were cool enough) or to take the family somewhere he didn't enjoy. (He couldn't suffer through a day at Disneyland with the kids without whining about it so eventually I just took then without him - seriously, it was one day a year, only 60 minutes away, but you would have thought he was being tortured.) I'm not rewriting history - I still can see and appreciate the good things about our relationship - but I'm seeing what should have been obvious to me but I couldn't see with the rose colored glasses on.

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Hello wooba

kml said it well. We need to look at our spouses as they were and not as they currently are. Of course they currently look like they have a personality disorder, for they do, they are in MLC.

My wife started to show signs of disorder two or so years before BD. It mostly was her behaving, and thinking, like a teenager. Cringeworthy and embarrassing behaviour or remarks. This was not all time, and was basically seen and overlooked by family and friends. One more of the over the top times was at a restaurant; W’s remarks and behaviour actually cleared the other two tables, the people left. Looking back from where I am now, I can see the young girl, desperately trying to get out.

There were even a few rare occasions where she was more a young girl. I still have a text where W “changed” mid conversation and became a girl of around 7 years of age.

Strange stuff. The fragility of the mind.

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Thank you both for your input.

I think I was a little rattled after reading the book. lol. Was H an narcissist?? Was I an "empath"?? Was I taken advantage of during our whole M??

Those feelings have calmed down. After some rumination, I think H's changes have mostly happened recently, presumably when his MLC started few years ago. He might have already had some narcissistic traits, and those have been amplified since.

Either way, I've spent far too much time in the last few days focused on dissecting H and our past R than I'd like.

This weekend H invited us over to check out his new place (!!!). It is still very strange to me, considering before this I did not know where he lived for the entire year.

I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed as of lately. The boys are getting older and they have more and more activities and academic responsibilities which require a lot of time and energy from me. I don't know how I got through last year, but I did! I guess there is nothing left to fear. ha!


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Life recently presented me with a possible (second) career path. I’ve never thought I’d get another chance at an office job in my life anymore since I’ve been a sahm for so long. I’m kind of excited about the prospect, but at the same time very reluctant to be a full time working *single* mom. I have started a business and it already has a steady revenue stream, but what’s lacking to me is self-growth and the industry (education) limits me to interact with mainly only teachers/parents (not very exciting). It’s possible to do both, but it will not be easy.

And I might be thinking too much ahead as I have only been able to get my foot in the door so far. Lol. Maybe ultimately they will decide that I’m not qualified enough for the position!

So, working mamas out there, what’s your take? Taking an almost entry level job at a prestigious company and work my way up vs focusing on my own business with more flexibility? What am I gonna do with my kids? Gosh! Can’t a gal have it all?

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Yay Wooba!

The universe is granting you opportunities to explore your potential! You have nothing to fear by exploring every nook and cranny of this opportunity at this point in time. The logistics will fall into place if it is meant to be. But at this stage, enjoy the potential of your becoming! It might be this job, or it may be that the confidence boost you receive by exploring this job leads to your availability for the next one. Either way, you go, girl!

Yes, a gal can have it all! You have done so much hard work leaning into the solo-mama gig, I bet you can pretty much accomplish anything. You might have to ask more of H, you might have to ask more of your kiddos, but no matter what, if it is best for you, it will be best for all.

In the meantime, take it all a day at a time. You've got this, you know.

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Hi Wooba,

I second Sage-- you should totally explore the possibility of this new opportunity. Learning as much as you can about it will only help you to make your decision, and even if you decide this isn't the right choice for you right now, it is still good practice for interviewing, etc. and will put you in a better position down the line.

I'd ask as many questions as you can about the workplace culture and spend some time thinking through what are your must-haves and nice-to-haves in terms of a job (my exec coach also makes me think about my "misery makers" so that I can identify and avoid them).

You're in a good position in that you have your entrepreneurial business going such that you could either gear up and add something new OR continue to focus your work energy there-- and if you decide to try out this new job and decide it isn't for you, you didn't have to quit a job to get that experience.

Congrats, Wooba! This is awesome.


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Thanks Sage and May!! I think I will give it a shot. I'm gonna have to dust off my resume!! I think it is exciting, and I am grateful that my friend thought of me when the opportunity came up. I'm trying to not get caught up thinking about childcare and the logistics right now and focus my energy on the initial process.

other news -

The kids and I visited H's new place. I even stayed around for a bit. Yup, he's still drinking. We ended up having dinner all together three nights in a row last weekend. He offered and I followed along. I don't mind as long as he's acting normal and he's paying, ha! The kids enjoyed spending time with him as well.

And then today he sent me the D papers he drafted, saying we should get our lawyers together. Don't get me wrong, I also at this point want everything to be settled. But not on the terms he's setting!!!

and seriously, I'm getting major Jekyll and Hyde vibes from him. On one hand he can take us all out for dinners and have a good time, and then he turns around and emails me accusing me off making a unnecessary extravagant purchase (I had to buy something for S11 for a school event). wth is going on??

The pattern so far is - spewing behind the keyboard and attack with emails. which is exactly what cowardly cyber bullies do.

Ain't nobody got time for that


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Hooray that you were noticed for the great Wooba that you are!

My advice is to go through the whole interview process. Use it as practice and see it as fun. Don't take it too seriously. Just check it out and see what it's like to interview, etc.

If you get the job, you'll know more by then if you want it.

And you may also find that they are interested in a flex-time or partially remote schedule that would give you time with your kids too.

I do know that interviewing itself is a great way to get a GAL, and so is a job, any job. You don't have to stay forever, if you get it. Use it to catapult yourself into your next phase!

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I've been busy busy busy!!

I sent my resume out few days ago. Now it's just a waiting game. I forgot what this feels like.....nerve-racking!!
But I have to agree, Gerda, that this is the best GAL activity ever. I've spent very little time thinking about H.

I'm meeting my official divorce L tomorrow. Hopefully we can wrap things up sooner than later.


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That's great, Wooba! Fingers crossed on the job... and even if this one doesn't pan out, it gets you in the mindset for what's next.

On the L and D-- I remember you saying before that there were complications to getting divorced in the country where you live now-- are you still worried about that?

You seem really balanced and strong. I love the ain't nobody got time for his BS. Yasss. smile


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Originally Posted by may22
On the L and D-- I remember you saying before that there were complications to getting divorced in the country where you live now-- are you still worried about that?

It is still tricky, but I've decided to hand off all financial negotiations to my L now. I don't know, even if I don't get everything financially that I deserve, I might still want to move forward with D anyway. I really don't want to spend another breath arguing with this man about anything. My time is too precious. My life is too precious.

A side note - I've started watching Workin' Moms on Netflix and I absolutely LOVE the show!!!


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Good Morning wooba

Yes, let your L deal with all the negotiating and whatnot. You still make the decisions.

Originally Posted by wooba
My time is too precious. My life is too precious.

Amen!

D


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Wow, Wooba, you sound like you are in a really great place. Good for you!

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hello all!

Just a quick vent. H & I have been relatively cordial. He's sending me less and less money each month since he cut me off in July, but I'm not going to fret about it. Letting my L handle that part.

He emailed me tonight and said regarding to the transfer of money - "My continued cooperation and flexibility is running short."

and 5 mins later he texted me and asked if he can come over and help with our Halloween party this weekend. "Anything I can bring?"

what. the. heck.

Anyways. I'm meeting a friend tomorrow. Her H works with my H, we were close but drifted apart because H hated her H (surprise! he pretty much hates everybody). I suspect that she's heard something thru the grapevine so is reaching out to me, which I appreciate. I'm happy to be free of H's emotional and social baggage that I can revive some of the old friendships that were lost because of him.

Sometimes I look back and I am so grateful of H's BD. It really changed my life for the better.


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Quote
I'm meeting a friend tomorrow. Her H works with my H, we were close but drifted apart because H hated her H (surprise! he pretty much hates everybody).


My exH didn't hate everybody, but he pretty much only wanted to hang out with the people HE wanted to hang out with. If I liked a woman friend but he didn't think the husband was "cool" enough, then he wouldn't do things with them as a couple. I've made many good friends since my divorce that wouldn't have been my ex's cup of tea.

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Originally Posted by wooba
He emailed me tonight and said regarding to the transfer of money - "My continued cooperation and flexibility is running short."

and 5 mins later he texted me and asked if he can come over and help with our Halloween party this weekend. "Anything I can bring?"


(eyeball roll) MAN. He is the king of passive aggressive behavior, huh? I wonder how he justifies this in his mind. Or... who cares. Although a part of me wants you to text him back in response to "what can I bring?" -- "your continued cooperation and flexibility would be great. TIA!"

smile M


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Originally Posted by may22
(eyeball roll) MAN. He is the king of passive aggressive behavior, huh? I wonder how he justifies this in his mind. Or... who cares. Although a part of me wants you to text him back in response to "what can I bring?" -- "your continued cooperation and flexibility would be great. TIA!"


What didn't I think of that?! That's ingenious!!!!


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May is hilarious, I can't beat that!

But really, where are these men's head at? You are such a strong, capable human for dealing with it all.

How did the visit with your friend go?

I bet the kids are excited for Halloween. What is your plan for interacting with H?

xx

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Wooba, so it sounds like you've been having quite the party with WH in my absence. Dear lord. Well you sound really good. Really grounded. And like you're weather this storm with just a plethora of grace. Also Working Moms is just fantastic isn't is?

Thinking of you often xoxoxo

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GOSH guys...here it is...

I told H he is welcome to come to our Halloween party. Given that our recent in-person interactions have been fine, I thought it wouldn't be a big deal. Although for a split second I did wonder whether this would be a good idea. (should've listened to my gut feeling)

H came. brought chips and candy like I asked him to. the kids were playing. and he started talking to me about the divorce. "How much money do you need for the kids' living expenses?" I didn't answer. He kept talking and pressing, "What's take your attorney so long?" I looked at the kids by us playing and I was getting really uncomfortable. I said, "I didn't have you here to have this discussion. If this is what you want talk about, I think you should leave."

This is where it got hostile. H said, "F you!" "This is MY house, I'm not going to leave!" I said, "YOUR house?" He said, "Yes, the lease is under my name. I'm merely extending the courtesy to you to live here."

I didn't say anything. I was upset and shocked by his behavior that I had no words. I think I was more shocked my naivete. Why did I expect that he would behave like a reasonable man?

He kept talking, trying to turn things around. "It's been difficult for me, I keep finding myself in polarized positions....It's really emotional for me to see the kids, and to see you. I was telling [friend] that I still love you, and I will always will............actions speak louder than words."

Me: " Yes. You cussed me out."

I don't even remember what else he said, but eventually he said, "If you want me to leave, I will leave."
Me: "Please leave."

Then he got up, looked at the kids, and asked me, "Should we have the kids vote, see if they want me to leave?"
I said, "I don't think that's a good idea, they have their friends here also."
H: "How ugly do you want this to get?"
Me: "I don't know. You are responsible for your own actions."
H: "Yes, and YOU are responsible for your own actions. You asked me to leave."

Ultimately he left without making things worse. He said to me, "I'm sorry that I was not on my best behavior tonight. I am really stressed out."

I was shaken up and couldn't hold back my tears for a few minutes while all of this was going down.

just wow. nothing's changed.


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Good Morning wooba

I am sorry H decided to bring up D talks at the party and in front of the kids. His swearing and anger shows the emotional crisis he is within.

His behaviours and words are projections of his inner pain, shame, and guilt. He is trying to justify his anger upon you. Blame you. I mean really, he is extending you the courtesy of letting you leave there. Lol. He knows, and feels, what is the likely consequences of his actions. And he is having a tough time facing his consequence-filled outcomes.

Great job dealing with him! Asking him to leave and not having the kids vote (seriously?!? MLCers are irrational folks grasping at any straw they can).

And very good on calling him out on his threat of “how ugly do you want this to get”. Oh, that was so well done! Most proud of you.

Originally Posted by wooba
just wow. nothing's changed.

Untrue.

Something has changed.

Wooba has changed.

There was a time you could not have handled that exchange. And look at you! Totally rocking it.

H sees this new you, by the way. And that is causing him to face his actions, since his projections and blaming don’t stick to you anymore. Hence his emotional outburst. His path is still all about him. Although he is changing, a wee bit, inside. Don’t want to discount things just because H’s subtle shifts are still mostly internal.

I hope you realize how strong and confident you are. H’s world is shook up a bit methinks, with you not sitting around pining for him.

Continue walking your path. You are doing very well.

D


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I was really impressed with how you handled that too. This is what it looks like to have grown and thrived. It doesn't mean he will have stopped being an MLCer. It means you can handle it well!

I think this is a good thing. Total clarity for you now. No need to wonder what you should do as far as including him. You can't include him until he is out of MLC. He'll know now too why you say no.

My H has never said anything me to indicate he was in torment over seeing me or the kids, etc. I would put that into your little garden and plant it there. Let it water itself, you have business to take care of. But it's nice to know you're not crazy, he really is as conflicted as we say they are.

You were a rock star here, a black belt in LBS. Go, Wooba!


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Wow, wooba, this is like word for word my H (all about "letting" you live there, how ugly do you want this to get), but minus all the verbalized confusion. I'm so sorry H crashed the Halloween party in this way. Even through your shock (how do they manage to still shock us after all we've witnessed, after all we've read on this board?) you were able to react rationally and let H spin out. I'm glad he left without actually asking the kids to vote—I mean, seriously? I hope you can eat some candy and get back to the peaceful night you deserve. ((wooba))


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Thank you DnJ, Gerda, and cardinal. It's been awhile since we last had a confrontational moment like this. As much as I was shaken up, I was proud of how I handled the situation. I didn't let fear (fear of getting into it in front of the kids and guests) rule my principles - I will not tolerate being treated this way. This guy knows me well. When he threatened me with "how ugly do you want this to get," I bet he was counting on the old me where I would do whatever necessary to pacify him.

The kids are with H this morning, so I finally have some time to myself to process my emotions. I cried some more, although I'm not even really sure why. I thought there was no more left to die. Never in a million years did I think it would be possible for H to just pick up and leave his family. And of course, now to have this man said a big "F YOU" to me when the kids were running around in the background was a surreal experience.

That was a new low. It reminded me of earlier this year when H had a fall out with his mom and he called her a "c*nt" when I was asking him to be compassionate to his own mother.

Who is this man?

I think a part of my sadness stems from my compassion for him. DnJ, you're right, it's all his inner pain, his emotional crisis. It is sad to see him like this.


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wooba,

You handled the situation very well. The party was not the place to bring up the situation...and....to ask about having the children take a vote? That was a very MLC question and one that was out of order. Crazy making on his part. Believe it or not, he's not a happy person and he sure as heck didn't want to see you having a fun time when he's miserable inside...but he left and hopefully the rest of the evening went well.

Don't second guess yourself...you did the right thing.


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Count me in among those impressed by how you handled the situation. I'm sorry he is going through all of this and dragging you and the children through it as well. Guess he *didn't* bring his cooperating and flexible self to the party after all! smile

I completely agree with DnJ. Things have changed-- you. And he's having a hard time dealing with it. His problem. FWIW, I think you've really disentangled your own identity from his, now, such that before if he'd made a scene you would have been embarrassed to have your H make a scene. Now, you're like... feel free to embarrass yourself. I love the "you are responsible for your own actions" line. You are strong and centered and simply won't tolerate being treated like that any more.

He really is still spinning. I thought what he said when he was trying to talk his way out of it was interesting. I love Sage's "not my circus, not my monkeys" and hope you can apply it in your situation.

Sending hugs and hope you and the kids still had a fun Halloween!!


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You are detaching and this recent experience is a great example of that!

It doesn't mean you don't feel things-- I too have felt tears well up in some encounters with H over the past week-- but that your emotions don't trump (sorry, too close to elections to use that word?) your ability to maintain a clear boundary is a real sign of the new Wooba.

There is so much growth in your post, Wooba. You maintained a boundary with class and grace. You showed up with your best self and didn't let H's worst self rock you back into an old pattern. You showed yourself and your children how you want to be treated.

Those heartstring pulls about 'still loving you' are a sign that H feels something shifting in you. You have changed and he is going to experiment with different tactics to try to get you to stay in line with his narrative. Please see them for what they are at this moment and don't let them set you back. Not that anything you wrote tells me any differently, but I know that it can be hard to hear those sorts of things while your healing is so new and tender. Keep your toehold, sister.

((Wooba))

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Thanks ladies.

When he said those words - "I still love you and always will," I almost wanted to laugh out loud.

A piece of memory from that night popped into my head yesterday. In trying to make a point of "still loving me," H said that actions show more than words, and his action of "still providing financial support every month" is the evidence.

I was obviously too shocked from the F bomb that night to process anything he said afterward. But this stood out to me and I was once again, reminded of how he treated his family. The recent years, he's made less and less of an effort to maintain a relationship with his parents (and we've actually moved closer to them). Often he would give them cash the few times we visit, and he'd say it's to "keep them happy." Sure, anyone would be happy to receive some cash, but what does that say about a man who uses money to replace fundamental interactions that develop intimate, long-lasting relationships?

He's incapable.

Money he's got plenty. Emotional capital, not much.


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Good Morning wooba

Having the F-bomb dropped would be shocking. It is telling of just how raw and uncontrolled his emotions are. They really are cranked to 11.

H using money instead of feelings/empathy - it makes sense. Empathy requires allowing yourself to be vulnerable, to feel what someone else is feeling. That is quite impossible for a MLCer, their empathy chips are broken, and they cannot even handle their own emotions never mind anyone else’s.

The gift of monies, or paying bills, etc, is a pale shadow of real emotional connection. It’s all he can handle, for the moment. And possibly, probably, all he learnt, or was treat like, as a child.

Originally Posted by wooba
I think a part of my sadness stems from my compassion for him. DnJ, you're right, it's all his inner pain, his emotional crisis. It is sad to see him like this.

It’s normal to feel sad. And yes, some of that stems from compassion. H is a broken person. It is sad to see someone broken and hurting.

Compassion cannot fix them. It can influence, encourage, lead, forgive, and so on. Healing and fixing is up to H.

Compassion also has a component of indifference and detachment to it. The ability to step back and let them be.

There is nothing wrong with a little sadness. It shows your compassionate heart is still soft and squishy. And you don’t want a hardened heart of stone.

Have a great day.

D


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My H did not support us at all, stopped working at our business but continued to take money out of the cash register and out of my wallet, took my checks and wrote checks to buy things, same with credit cards, etc. Twice he took all the money out our daughter's wallet -- she was 7 years old at the time and had made the money selling lemonade. He kept telling her he would give it back but never did so I finally gave her the money and told her to give it back to me if he ever did pay he back but not to ask him anymore, it was making her so confused and upset.

He quit his job in 2015, a year after my cancer, and thus ended our health insurance for me and the kids too. Court order was to keep that insurance, and he dropped it without even telling me. I found out by accident that in two weeks, I wouldn't have any coverage. I couldn't even go to the oncologist without paying for it out of pocket. My awful L at the time never even told the judge or filed a motion or anything.

He is trying to sell the house I live in with our kids, even though the rentals on the units below are the only way I have to pay for their housing, since he does not give me any child support, makes no money, and won't end this divorce until I agree to pay him alimony, legal fees and all his equity within 4 months though I make very little salary and have full custody. I could not even get him to move after he filed except by finding a way to pay him to leave. I borrowed money and used half my apartment for short-term rentals to tourists to have the money to pay him. I insisted on this being an advance on his ED but he keeps trying to use it to show that I should pay alimony. When that half of my apt was rented, I had no kitchen for the kids. He didn't care. If I was late, he filed for contempt. During Covid I can't do those rentals anymore and our other rentals are cut in half, so I am in forbearance and just paying the interest and sending him a much smaller amount for the advance ED. He has filed for contempt again and I constantly have to correct his L's reference to this money as "support" because he is still trying to establish a precedent for alimony! He owes his L probably 100K, which is planning to pay with the sale of our home. I have offered to pay him a downpayment now (which I will borrow) and the rest either after our rentals go back to normal and I can refinance or when our D graduates junior high in a few years (meaning I would have to sell). He says no, lump sum only, and that is why he won't resolve the D that he filed.

Now I almost looking forward to trial because I am going to ask for sole use of our home til our second child is 18! I may not win it but if he thinks I will, maybe he will finally settle this nightmare.

Point is, I would not be cynical about him still providing for you. That is caring. It is real caring and it is just as easy not to provide for you. My life would be so different if my H thought he was obligated to provide for our kids, let alone me. I would thank him for it if there are times that would make sense to thank him without appearing to be asking for anything or chasing his love. Many MLCers feel unappreciated as providers and that is part of what set them off and leads to the "my turn now" syndrome.

Last edited by Gerda; 11/08/20 03:43 PM.

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Gerda, thank you for providing a different perspective.

Since I sent over the expense list H requested through his L last week, there’s been no movement on his end. The legal fight barely got started and I’m already tired of it. Ugh.

I’m watching Eat Pray Love for the first time right now (I know I’m super late to the party) and this really resonated with me:

I have boundary issues with men. Or maybe that’s not fair to say. To have issues with boundaries, one must have boundaries in the first place, right? But I disappear into the person I love. I am the permeable membrane. If I love you, you can have everything. You can have my time, my devotion, my ass, my money, my family, my dog, my dog’s money, my dog’s time—everything. If I love you, I will carry for you all your pain, I will assume for you all your debts (in every definition of the word), I will protect you from your own insecurity, I will project upon you all sorts of good qualities that you have never actually cultivated in yourself and I will buy Christmas presents for your entire family. I will give you the sun and the rain, and if they are not available, I will give you a sun check and a rain check. I will give you all this and more...


I’m glad I’m not that anymore.


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I told H he's welcome to have the kids for Thanksgiving. H said we should do dinner all together, I said no thank you. H asked if he could come over and put the tree up. I said I need to think about it some more and will get back to him. In reality, I'm thinking no. After what happened at Halloween, I really do not want him in my presence even for a second. H said he would like for us to sit down and discuss finances again without attorneys. I said no thank you, I'm leaving it all to my attorney.

Regarding the xmas tree, I know that if it were up to my kids, they would vote for having dad over and do his thing like he does every year. We have a gigantic tree and decorating it has always been H's job. I know by saying no to H I will disappoint them. But I feel like that's the right thing to do. I do not want to betray my own feelings and say yes out of guilt to my children. I'm thinking of asking them to help me this year. It will be a PITA to put up the tree myself as the only adult, but if they agree to help maybe we can all give it a try.

I did tell them maybe we could just buy a small tree this year and keep it simple. They didn't really respond to that. ha.

Oh the holidays! I remember last year we had to fake it and have everyone over while we pretended like nothing was wrong. I'm glad I can be authentic this year.


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Good Morning wooba

There are times when you seek the kids input, other times they even get to vote, and other times they don’t. Christmas and the tree is one of the latter times. You decide and lead. Don’t have H over; the kids will accept it as normal, for it is.

Yes, authenticity does emerge. The first year is quite a bit of fake it till you make it. You’ve made it!

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Thanks DnJ for the advice. I just remembered about your BD. Does this time of year still bring a pang to your heart?

Question for everyone- how do I explain it to the kids that I no longer want to be around H? I can’t exactly tell them “because your dad said a big F U to me”...I’ve mentioned that I don’t want be around H anymore. But S10 is curious to know more. I guess it’s because we were relative cordial. Now I really just want that distance between us.

Even now looking back, I feel like I should have started NC and reinforce it sooner after BD. I put up with too much and let too much slide. I am by nature forgiving and forgetful. Which sometimes makes the line drawn for my boundary very blurry.


Last edited by wooba; 11/12/20 03:09 PM.

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Wooba just caught up on the hallowe'en episode. {{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}

stay within your hula hoop. that is the boundary. You can do it. Why not start a new tradition this Christmas --- do something different that will be YOUR tradition moving forward - be it a live tree, a smaller tree or something else.

Focus on how YOU want your holidays to go.

I'm sorry he's an @$$.


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Quote
He kept talking, trying to turn things around. "It's been difficult for me, I keep finding myself in polarized positions....It's really emotional for me to see the kids, and to see you. I was telling [friend] that I still love you, and I will always will............actions speak louder than words."


Wooba - let me ask you this. What is your goal and your preferred outcome at this point?

IF you are done and happy to be going forward with the divorce - then I agree, it's time to stop pretending to be a big happy family. Let H sit with the consequences of his actions. My ex had the nerve to ask our adult children if he could come to my mother's house (where I was living after our separation) for Thanksgiving! This was 8 months after he filed for divorce which was well underway. The answer was NO.

HOWEVER - if you are secretly hoping that he will come back and you are still open to reconciliation - him saying that he still loves you and always will sounds like a guy who was trying to suss out whether there was any hope for reconciliation at this point. If you feel there might be, and he's not currently living with an OW (I don't remember the details of your sitch) then you might consider having him under conditions that there is no discussion of the divorce at that time.

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Bttrfly - I think a small tree is a good idea. The kids have always wanted to pick their own tacky ornaments but H has always been a control freak about his “perfect” tree.

Kml - I’m done and I’d love to be divorced ASAP! I don’t think there’s ow but the drinking and his overall mental state is a dealbreaker for me. Ha. My H also asked if he would still be welcomed at my parents if he goes into the city. I was like seriously?? Why on earth would you think you’d be welcomed there anymore??

So after I responded to his email request to sit down and talk about finances with “I’m leaving it to my attorney”
, he emailed me with a “are you refusing to sit down and go through our assets?”. Do I even need to respond back? How can I be anymore clear with “I’m letting my L handle it”??


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You could ask exactly what he's asking for? Does he need a list? Is he trying to get you to sit down and decide who gets the grandfather clock and who gets the Vitamix blender? Or is he trying to get you to agree to a financial settlement without your lawyer?

"Go through our assets" could be taken either way. If you have all the financial information you need (bank accounts, retirement funds etc) then you could just say any questions can be directed to my lawyer. If on the other hand he has information abut accounts that you need, you could say "send me copies of your accounts and I'll send you copies of mine". Or if you think he wants to go through "stuff", just ask him to send you a list of the household items he wants most.

My guess is he's just looking for a way to get more contact with you. In which case politely keep continuing to ay that you prefer that communication about the divorce go through your lawyer. But it might be worth clarifying exactly what he's asking for now.

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Hello wooba

Originally Posted by wooba
Does this time of year still bring a pang to your heart?

A little bit. Nothing like it was the first year. smile

My feelings are compassionate and forgiving towards XW. Me, kids, and parents, sitting around the tree in the living room, opening presents, laughing, enjoying the day and our time together. We have a wonderful meal, play games, etc.

XW threw that away. She sits in OW’s house, with the tree in the basement. These past three years have had short Christmas visits from the kids. This year’s plan is no visits.

I know what we as a family had. I know what she ran away from. I live it. I love it.

So, I suppose there is a little empathic heartache for a woman who appears to be incapable of it.

Originally Posted by wooba
how do I explain it to the kids that I no longer want to be around H? I can’t exactly tell them “because your dad said a big F U to me”...I’ve mentioned that I don’t want be around H anymore. But S10 is curious to know more. I guess it’s because we were relative cordial. Now I really just want that distance between us.

It is often difficult to speak with one’s children. To have those difficult open conversations. However, children are curious. S10’s inquisitive mind is a wonderful thing. And him wanting to inquire to you, is absolutely fabulous. Never take that for granted. Talk with him, and answer his questions. Your son has placed a lot of faith in you, ensure you live up to it.

For what to tell son. I agree you should not (you can, but shouldn’t - ah wording smile ) say because Dad said F U. That’s not because it’s a big swear. No, S10 has probably heard it already. No, it’s because you wooba don’t blame Dad.

Be clear on this, with yourself. You don’t want to see H because of how you feel around him. It’s not because he swore at you. And it’s not because of how he makes you feel (you make you feel. H doesn’t have that kind of power).

Son, I do not wish to be around Dad because I feel hurt and sad. There are problems and those problems affect me and hurt me.

This will most likely lead to further questions of what problems. And probably son opening up to you about his feelings, which is a very good thing. Answer honestly and age appropriately. And it is ok to say I’m not sure. Let me think on that and we will talk about it tomorrow night. You don’t have to have all the answers right at your fingertips.

Originally Posted by wooba
I’m done and I’d love to be divorced ASAP!

How long have you felt this way?

Feelings are fleeting. Feeling do and will change. Big decisions made based upon feelings mostly end up in regret. Ensure you are acting from a deeper place from within yourself.

Originally Posted by wooba
So after I responded to his email request to sit down and talk about finances with “I’m leaving it to my attorney”, he emailed me with ”are you refusing to sit down and go through our assets?”. Do I even need to respond back? How can I be anymore clear with “I’m letting my L handle it”??

Respond, I am not refusing anything. My attorney is looking after these matters. Is there something specific you’d like to discuss?

As kml said, it would be a good idea to clarify just what he is getting at.


As bttrfly said, get a tree, smaller if need be, and have the kids help decorate it. Also take some goofy Christmas pictures - let the kids poise in the most goofy manner they can.

Years ago, like ten, amidst the traditional pictures for relatives and frames and such, we had a goofy picture shoot. The four kids in front of the lit tree, all dressed in their Christmas clothes, and making faces and funny poises. I still carry that photo in my wallet. Such a love and joy in their faces. My children’s gleeful outlook captured, is one of my treasures.

There is much more happiness and joy in my heart than the pangs of loss.

D

Last edited by DnJ; 11/13/20 02:13 AM.

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We have sat down and talked about all of our accounts back in May. Few months later, he claimed that it never happened. I have passed all the account info to my L and he's now claiming that my L has refused providing him with any info. H has asked me for login/passwords for our accounts for online access but I have not responded to that, since I'm afraid he might move the funds. But his names are on those accounts too, if he really wanted to, he could figure out a way himself (I'm just not going to facilitate that). 99% of our accounts are in the US while we are living overseas.

I think he's trying to have more contact with me. The splitting assets talk is just a ruse. From his reply, I think that once again, he's getting hostile when I set a boundary. I don't want to do X with him, and he lashes out. fill in the blank with dinner, holidays, talk, sex, anything.

Originally Posted by DnJ
How long have you felt this way?

For a good 3 months or so now. His drinking and mental state are deal breakers for me. I really don't see it getting better anytime soon, and I do not want to wait around for a miracle.

DnJ, thank you for the suggestions on how to talk to the boys. I will start a conversation with them about the holidays soon.

Originally Posted by DnJ
There is much more happiness and joy in my heart than the pangs of loss.

This is beautiful. I feel that way too. I had all three crashing my bedroom last night and it was the sweetest. I know these moments wont last!!


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What the Perpetual Victim is trying to tell you is - no one can help me.

When you encounter a Perpetual Victim, remember to just empathize and listen.

Once you are emotionally involved, you have entered the trap of a mind game. You will start playing the part of the Perpetual Rescuer, always there to provide guidance and comfort. Then, feelings of failure and resentment will start to accumulate. Because guess what? Your guidance and comfort did nothing.

Once you have a well of resentment built up, you might start to complain, even reprimand the Perpetual Victim. Now you could potentially be seen by the Perpetual Victim as the culprit of it all. Finally, the Perpetual Victim’s belief is thus strengthened - "No one can help me, it is hopeless!"

If this Perpetual Victim is your partner, then he or she has another trick up their sleeves. You will ALWAYS be seen as the perpetrator! Any negative emotions they are feeling will be YOUR fault.

When a person pushes away all responsibilities to others, he or she is making the announcement - “I am a baby.” Because there is only one type of human being in this world who can, without judgement, take no responsibility - a baby.


From Psychology Today:

The victim will definitely complain and even whine to others about how hard life is. But if anyone ever offers him some options for changing that life, the victim classically comes back with a long list of "Yes, buts." If we ever have the heart and temerity to confront him with this fact, he is liable to begin to cry and tell us repeatedly that we just don't understand how hard it is for him.

She will beg you to fix her life, then when you offer the fix, she'll either find a way to sabotage your fix or she'll complain that you "did it all wrong," and, "what's the matter with you?" Or, she'll refuse your fixes altogether. You'll be frustrated and try all the harder to get her to see she needs help or some solution to the problem and you'll stay hoping against hope that she'll get it.

Of course, the secondary gain for the victim is in the fact that he can get people to stay and take care of him in just this way—for who could ever really leave the poor victim without feeling terribly guilty. In this way, victims often bully others into all kinds of care-giving, running the gamut from providing financially for poor victim, to literally making all of his choices for him. The victim typically knows exactly what buttons to push in others to get them to begin or continue to take care of him. Indeed, quite often the bully identity lurches backward into his shadowed victim identity, as a means of justifying his abuse of others.



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Wooba, this is fascinating to read, thank you for sharing.

On someone's thread on the Newcomers forum, there was a discussion about the rescuer-victim-oppressor triage (I believe it stems from Karpman's drama triage) and this is an interesting extension of the victim-rescuer dynamic.

When you read this, what did it make you feel? How did it change your perspective and the direction you are heading?

I hope you have a great week!

x

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Originally Posted by Sage4
When you read this, what did it make you feel? How did it change your perspective and the direction you are heading?


Dear Sage,

It made me feel like this is what I was doing for the entirety of our marriage. The only difference was H was blaming EVERYONE, not just me. I am shocked now to see how much I put up with. I often think about those years, putting my own needs behind everyone else's, leaving the M never once crossed my mind because of our children. I remember feeling like a prostitute. staying in the M, doing it, for the financial security. We did have some good times, at times H treated me like I was his savior. I took on that job by default, and it continued to be my mode of operation throughout our M.

I came across this article by accident, but it was almost a sign. Last night H came and dropped off the kids after his time with them, and at drop off he was teary eyed. He gave the boys good bye hugs, and he looked like he was going to cry.

I empathize, I do. But at the same time I understand now that there is nothing I can do to help him, nor should I feel any guilt about his sadness. It is his life to live, and he is the one who needs to sit with his choices.


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Hey wooba,
Christmas is really, really hard. But it's also incredibly freeing. XH who was also a perpetual victim, and from what I know it has a lot to do with addiction, was in complete control of our Xmas celebrations. I had to see my family near Xmas not on the eve or the day of, if I wanted to see them at all. He also insisted on a real tree which was never my deal. The first year apart I spent Xmas eve completely alone wrapping and drinking and taking a bath. And Xmas day with my grandparents. The following year I was with my now H and he was so happy to do what ever I wanted when ever I wanted and work together to do both families I had no idea what that was like. The following year I got the fake pre-lit Christmas tree I had always wanted. It was great. The girls put the tree up now together while I drink wine and decorate other stuff. New traditions are wonderful. Your kids will learn to love them. And the old ones will be fond memories. You have a line. You know what's best for you. The glorious thing about kids is they adapt.

As to the perpetual victim thing, I wish I had realized it sooner, as I'm sure you do too. But recognizing it and stopping the cycle is the best thing you can do for you. As the kids age they'll notice and you can have deeper conversations about the perpetual victim thing as their age allows, because he can and will turn them in to perpetrators. Things have been strained pretty much since XH realized I wasn't coming back. He did and does continue to make me a perpetrator. As D18 aged and called XH out on the behavior she too became a perpetrator. She has far less tolerance for it than I have. I know why he is the way he is. Not that I excuse it. I just can't see myself not pitying him. It's all I really have left, that and the memories from the handful of years when he wasn't a victim 24/7. I see the same behavior with H's ex. They had a pretty heated exchange when H and I first started dating. She had left D16 at a "friend's" house and went drinking. D16 at the time was barely 9. She called H to come get her because "she was tired and wasn't having fun any more." She had been there for hours. She didn't even really know the people she was left with. H flipped out on his ex and asked her why she would do that, why can't she just do the right thing for her kid, keep a job, get a car, keep a roof over their heads. Her response...he left. Every failing she had as an adult and a mother was because he left. The irony of all that was that he didn't actually leave. She kept leaving to party and would stay out all night leaving him with a toddler alone when he'd have to work. So he got fed up took the little one by his mom's packed ex's stuff up put it on the porch and changed the locks. Thankfully they never married. So it was that simple. But perpetual victims as partners are a life long hardship when you have kids with them. Your journey is going to be a long one. I'm sending all my love and all the good juju I can send your way.

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oh girl. you read my mind. I know my kids still love their dad and this has been on my mind lately - they will empathize with him, but will they understand that he is the one responsible for his own feelings? obviously they might still be a bit young to understand the perpetual victim mentality. I think the best I can do for now is to demonstrate that I will not tolerate someone who treats me poorly and I will protect my self-interest. And do all of that with kindness.

S11 has a big year end overnight trip coming up with school and I asked H for his consent. (I could've just leave him out of the decision making process but I was afraid it's going to come back and bite me somehow) H was being a PITA as usual, and I asked S11 whether he really wants to go. "Because if you do, you'll have to talk to dad and let him know that you really want to go on this trip!" I told him he needs to call his dad and get a "yes" so I can sign up for the trip. S11 said "never mind, I don't really need to go anyway." I kept asking him and I could see that he was visibly upset. And he finally confessed that he's afraid dad will say no. I asked him if he wants me to talk to dad, and he said yes.

So I called, put H on speaker phone, S11 next to me. H was out, from the sound of the background he was probably out drinking. I asked him about the trip. But basically he was drunk.

H: "Where are they going?"
Me: " [location], I texted you the info already."
H: "I don't think I got it"
Me: "I'm pretty sure you did" (it's marked as read)
H: "so it's this weekend right?"
Me: "no....it's in January"

and it basically went into a loop several times until he said yes. I had to record our call so that he can't turn around and claim that he never agreed for S11 to go on the trip.

So my Q is, when is it age appropriate for me to tell my boys that their father is an alcoholic?? It would explain A LOT of his behavior.


Last edited by wooba; 11/17/20 06:33 AM.

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11 is old enough to understand the concept. Honestly you can probably find a good way to explain it to pretty much every age group on the internet. It's just they won't get the totality of it until they get older and can synthesize memories and what they know to be true and the information you've given them regarding their dad. S11 is probably right around the age where he can put the pieces together. I was very vocal about XH's AODA issues. I never hid my kid from what he was. However in my case I'd go to work and he'd pass out and leave her unattended at 2.

My kiddo has always been and always will be a resourceful girl. She would push a chair to the cabinet with snacks get what she wanted. Take a small juice box out of the fridge. Turn on her favorite channel cover her dad with a blanket and herself and just sit until I got home. After it happened a few times I stopped leaving her there alone until she was older. So when he'd pass out, or hurt himself, or do anything else I would flat out say "Daddy's been drinking. He'll be fine, we just need to worry about us." One of his drinking buddies was over and I said that, and he tried to tell me that was inappropriate and I was a bad mother/wife. I said "You can have that conversation with your wife in your house. In my house I don't lie to my kid. She'll be living with this the rest of her life. As will your kids. She needs to start understanding now, while I can help her. She needs to know it's not her fault or her job to worry about him. What you want me to lie and say he's sick, he fell, he had an accident, or is confused, sad, or angry or some other excuse? I don't lie to my kid, and I certainly don't take parenting advice from drunks." Not a very fine validating moment on my part but I was a lot younger, D18 was probably 6 or 7, and looking at a guy hanging out in my backyard drinking with my XH passed out, instead of going home or helping me get him indoors. Or literally anything else.

It's a fine line with littler ones because they don't necessarily have the filter to not say "Mom said you're an alcoholic." But ala-teen has a lot to offer. Like al-anon you can find a lot of the materials online. Al-anon family groups you can usually find info for little on up to adults with alcoholics/addicts in their lives. Like I've said. I never did get all the way through the al-anon steps but it gave me a lot of tools for detachment, not enabling just to make life easier, boundaries, and how to help my daughter communicate and set her own boundaries with her dad. Some people like the community. Some people need the accountability for boundaries and enabling. I didn't really need either on a long term basis. I just needed a little support and a push, but the materials and the kids groups have been great resources to me.

The having to circle around questions 1,000 times, the forgetfulness, a lot of times due to the walking black outs, the misplaced anger, the dual personalities is all very, very tiring. And I'm going to be honest it only gets less tiring when the kids get old enough that you have to tell them they need to be their own advocates. I fought a lot of battles on my daughter's behalf for many years, by 15 though I tapped out. We had to have a long talk about how her dad's thinking makes it difficult for me to continue taking up the battles, because he wanted to believe that I was going out of my way to keep her from him, not that she didn't want to see him. Also because there was going to be a day where I wasn't going to be able to swoop in and put him promptly in his place and sort it all out. That she needed to start to learn how to navigate her dad. The one nice thing about alcoholics is they have little to no follow through so in my state by 12 kids can determine their placement & visitation, so I kept up the deal until she was 13. At that point I left it up to her. He constantly threatened to take me to court. I told him to try. I'd love to see him explain a motion before a judge. He never did. He knew it would be too much time, money and effort for a judge to completely re-write our order and give me full placement and custody with visitation upon mutual agreement.

You have the strength to do this, and so do those lovely boys, but it's going to be really, really hard some days.

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My L called me today, bringing me bad news that H basically does not want to budge on giving me more child support.

If 30% of income is what I would be entitled to per our state law, I would be getting around 15% only here. That DOES NOT cover our expenses.

My friend who went through a divorce herself gave me this advice: Ask yourself would you want to stay married to this person over it.

My answer is a definite no, I rather take less and be divorce than to drag it out wishing that he would budge.

It's still devastating though. I was hoping that I would get close to what I'm entitled to.

I have a job interview next week which I'm stressing about. I'm also still running my own business, but I need a steady source of income. My business is doing okay, but a job would provide me with more security.

If I do get the job....all the logistics that come with it....who's going to watch my kids? How should I arrange afterschool care?

Also we are probably going to move within the next 3 months. I'm throwing stuff out like crazy right now because our next apartment will definitely be a lot smaller. S11 does not like a smaller place, does not want to move....

ugh!! I just needed to vent.


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I was just writing to Can about this.

Why don't you file a petition for interim child support with your state and get the state amount?

Why would you have to take less just to rush your divorce forward?

I mean, I understand the feeling, but you can budge on assets and debts, there is really no reason to agree to lower child support and every reason to establish a precedent of getting the right child support.

What is the point of paying a lawyer to get you half the child support you'd get without a lawyer?

Read my post to Canbird that I just wrote, same idea for you.

I get it, I was desperate to end this nightmare quickly. But standing for your marriage can also be about standing for your kids. They need that other 15%, for college if not for now. But a good lawyer will include a life insurance policy and a college fund in support agreements.


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Wooba being abroad for this is messy and I'm sorry. A couple of things. 1) When I was finally done with exH I left with our clothes, some kitchen stuff, and my family's heirloom Xmas ornaments I had to start from scratch and I was basically destitute. I was on food share for a little while. It was completely and totally worth it. We were living with a friend in a spare room for a little while. Then a tiny studio. I thought it would be horrible going from a 3 bedroom house with a drive and a yard. It wasn't. It was perfect and was exactly what we needed to heal together away from exH. 2) I know you're only entitled to 15% (which seems absolutely bonkers to me for 3 kids) are you entitled to other things spousal support, 1/2 the assets/retirement/marital property? Is there something your L can fight for that would put your books into a better balance?


New Thread:

moving forward and beyond #2

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