I waited a few days to cool off before I responded to H’s email. I actually wrote, “I apologized that it made you feel uncomfortable.” And of course, he fired back with more accusations (I’m concerned that you’re saying inappropriate things to the kids) and spite. Somehow I expected him to react differently, but oh well. Lesson learned. No expectations. Do not engage.
And about talking to the children, he actually gave me a list of points he’d like to tell them (Ex: We're your parents and we have your welfare as a key priority - we will always care for you). Which took me by surprise. When we had this conversation last time with the kids back in January, he sat there said nothing except to tell S11 to stop crying and that he will still pay for things. Maybe that was such a horrible experience that he had to block it out of his memory.
I feel a bit bleh lately. Maybe I need to up my GAL game.
I know you don't take his spewing seriously, but it still can't be fun. (((wooba))) hang in there.
I *guess* it is a good thing he's finally thinking about the appropriate things to say to your kids. the previous conversation still blows my mind. I would block it from my mind too if I were your H.
How are things with the virus in your area? Are you able to GAL? How's your business doing? Can your kids go to real school? I remember when you told us way back when that your kids were home from school and I was like HOW are you able to handle that and everything else.... and now it is the status quo. So crazy.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Here in my country it’s almost as if we’re living in an alternate reality from everywhere else. Covid numbers are low. Everyone has been pretty good with wearing masks both indoor and out. We can go to school, go to a bar, socialize etc. The dad of S11’s new classmate is a doctor who got summoned back from overseas by the government to work on the vaccine, which is pretty cool.
My business has been doing well. I’ve been thinking about getting a 9-5 full time job versus doing what I’m doing. Running my business obviously is more flexible and it gives me the ability to pick up my kids and chauffeuring them to their activities. But the only thing is I kind of want contact with other human beings other than parents and teachers (my business has to do with education). But I’m kind of an introvert anyway, maybe I wouldn’t like a 9-5 job being forced to interact with people. Ha. I don’t know, just something that crossed my mind. I don’t think I’m ready to let the kids go and be a full time working mom yet anyway.
A mom friend (who knows about my sitch) told me today that she heard from her daughter that S10 at school mentioned to his table group friends that dad hasn’t been home much. Another girl commented “aww! Poor S10!!” I asked S10 about it, and why he brought it up to his friends. He shrugged and said, “I don’t know, I just wanted to say it.” I told him “I’m happy for you that you feel like you could share that with your friends. When I have something on my mind and I want to get it off my chest, I talk to my friends about it also.”
I feel like it’s a good sign that he is not treating it as a secret.
A mom friend (who knows about my sitch) told me today that she heard from her daughter that S10 at school mentioned to his table group friends that dad hasn’t been home much. Another girl commented “aww! Poor S10!!” I asked S10 about it, and why he brought it up to his friends. He shrugged and said, “I don’t know, I just wanted to say it.” I told him “I’m happy for you that you feel like you could share that with your friends. When I have something on my mind and I want to get it off my chest, I talk to my friends about it also.”
I feel like it’s a good sign that he is not treating it as a secret.
Wooba, this is such a good sign from S10! It shows his emotional resiliency. He does not have to live with this big, dark, secret about his home life. He is choosing to be vulnerable and put it out in the world so he is less burdened. I would encourage him to tell anyone he wants to talk about it with. I know in my own sitch with a same-aged child, he shared it with his friends, who huddled around him and hugged him and said they felt bad for him, but would always be there to listen to him. It was so helpful to my S. Also, I think kids are so much more empathetic and evolved than we are, so they are good support for each other.
It is a very good thing, son not treating his feelings and upheaval as a secret.
My two who were still in school, at the time D15 and S17, asked the teacher for permission and then stood up in front of their classmates and told them what had happened over the Thanksgiving Day weekend. Not only was that brave, it also stopped rumours; it’s a small town and people talk. And Mom was flaunting her new wonderful life rather aggressively.
Good for S10!
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Gerda- my eldest is like your son. It’s hard for him to show vulnerability.
Sage- at first I was worried that kids can also be pretty mean these days. But I’m glad S10’s conversation with his friends went well.
DnJ- Wow. That was incredible brave of them to do that. You sure raised them well!
Update: H and I sat down with the kids last weekend to talk about our divorce. Apparently H actually wrote a note on his phone so he wouldn’t forget all the points he wanted to explain to the kids. He did most of the talking. It went well, all pretty standard stuff. The kids didn’t say much. H told the kids he’s getting his new place ready, and maybe they can go visit him when it’s all organized.
I haven’t initiated small talk with H in awhile. And I think he senses it and steers clear of my way generally when we’re in the same space. But that day I casually asked a few details about his new place (how big, is it furnished...etc) and I felt like he immediately wanted to engage in small talk and kind of opened up. He answered my questions and complained (of course, 99% of things out of his mouth is complaint) the bed there was uncomfortable. And I swear for the past 4 days he’s been either calling me or texting me. I don’t pick up all the calls. I usually read the texts the next day. He wants to dinner together this upcoming Friday (with kids along). I told him I’ll have to think about it. It’s all kind of strange but I’m not holding my breath for any big change on his part.
I just finished reading a book a good friend recommended to me - “Healing from Hidden Abuse.”
I’m still not so clear whether I was a victim/survivor of emotional/psychological abuse. H could be narcissistic. But I don’t remember him being like that until the recent years. Frankly I didn’t start journaling until BD happened, what has happened before I have long forgotten. Reading it really confused me though. Has H always used toxic tactics like these but I just didn’t notice until now? Or did the gaslighting and everything start when he’s in MLC?
Also is it a good thing to have compassion? Why have empathy toward someone who does not have empathy(I don’t know if he does or not). I used to feel bad for H because of his childhood trauma. I justified his behavior (which normally would be unacceptable to me) with his past history. I’m having conflicting feelings about having compassion vs reserving anger to keep a distance to H’s toxicity.
I’m having mixed feelings because H as been acting “nice.” And his nicety for some reason makes me uncomfortable. Also with the holidays coming up, I have to decide whether to draw the clear boundary of celebrating separately or otherwise.
I also went to church for the first time at Sunday. The pastor spoke of forgiveness. I pictured myself telling H “I’m sorry for the pain I’ve caused you. Also I’d like you to know that I forgive you for all the pain you caused me.” It didn’t feel authentic to me. I guess I have not forgiven H.
Other than that, I didn’t really feel enlightened or anything. My kids went to Sunday school and S11 said he never want to go back again - “mom, I’m not a Christian. Are you turning into one of those nutters who are trying to convert everyone into Christians?” I just told him it was rude for him to say that and he needs to keep an open mind.
Sometimes it takes some real time and space to see our partners as they really were.
SOME MLCers were excellent spouses before and just look completely wacko during their crisis. But many of them did have the seeds of their madness present all along and we just compensated for them. It took me some time after my ex split to really realize what a narcissist he had always been. He was a "benign" narcissist - but our marriage worked as long as it did mostly because I was so accommodating. WE did the things HE liked to do, socialized with the people HE liked to hang out with, but as long as I accommodated that and made him look good, things were good. When I got ill with a chronic thyroid problem that sapped my strength, and later gained a little menopausal weight (we're talking 20-30 lbs, nothing egregious - actually many men thought I was sexier because I had more curves) I no longer reflected wll on HIM and he started to stray (or should I say resumed straying, as I had already forgiven him one episode of cheating early in our marriage).
His behavior since the divorce regarding our adult children has just made his narcissism more visible to me. It was always there, I just adjusted around it so it wasn't as visible. Sometimes you have to take off the rose colored glasses and look at the earlier years of your marriage to see what was or wasn't there.
I think the question of, was my spouse a narcissist, comes up for most LBS. Some were and are. Most, I believe were not. When looking for answers and understanding, be careful not to rewrite your own history.
Rose coloured glasses is a real thing. It takes time remove them, and then more time to see clearly.
Without doubt, MLCers are emotionally troubled individuals. The long ago traumas they suffered leave marks and scars. As those buried pains surface, more and more emotional behaviours and character flaws surface. Usually the previous 24 months before BD has many signs and personality changes, we are just not aware, nor even knew about MLC, so these go mostly unnoticed, unacknowledged, and swept under the rug.
People in crisis need to grow up from their emotional stunting. Many do display immature behaviours throughout their adult life. At times almost naive and innocent, to the egocentric-ness the young. Of course, these people are not stupid, and people can hide things very well, adapting to fit in. However, eventually, boom; it cannot remain contained forever. Their unrecognized feelings of pain and anguish demand full attention.
Everyone, MLCer, LBS, person down the street, every single person has seeds of good and bad, virtuous and vindictive, divine and devilish; it matters which is nurtured. That which grows, is that which is watered.
Narcissist or not? Does the label matter? Can people change? These are questions which each of us find our answers and our beliefs for; our convictions and headings along this path, along our life’s path.
Originally Posted by wooba
Also is it a good thing to have compassion? Why have empathy toward someone who does not have empathy(I don’t know if he does or not).
Compassion is a wonderful feeling/belief. It leads to being able to understand and even forgive. Goodness beget goodness, evil begets evil. Live with compassion, the world has enough hatred and evil lurking in it.
A peaceful and gentle life exudes compassion and kindness. Start by closing the cupboard door gently; our physical actions reinforce our thoughts and feelings, which in turn reinforce beliefs and convictions.
Having empathy is not towards someone; IMHO empathy pulls in towards you. Empathy is the ability to feel someone else’s emotions, to see things from their side, from their perspective. Empathy is emotional understanding - of someone else.
Why have empathy? To stand in someone else’s shoes. To see the world from different perspectives. To see the bigger picture. It doesn’t matter if H can empathize or not - it matters if you can.
I’ve found empathy to be a calming influence. People who are extremely passionate about their side of something are not being empathic, for they cannot see, nor feel the other side’s view. Empathy doesn’t allow for such a single sided ego driven mindset. Right and wrong, good and bad - those get hazy and the lines between them blur somewhat. That doesn’t mean one does not have their own values and beliefs, it is that you also believe others can have their beliefs as well, and both can be, and are, right.
MLCer’s cannot empathize while within their crisis. No one can feel someone else’s feeling while tore apart by their own. This holds true for the MLCer and the LBS. We, however, are not in a crisis. We are grieving, and moving forward; choose noble and good headings.
Originally Posted by wooba
I used to feel bad for H because of his childhood trauma. I justified his behavior (which normally would be unacceptable to me) with his past history. I’m having conflicting feelings about having compassion vs reserving anger to keep a distance to H’s toxicity.
Feeling bad for our suffering and lost spouses is normal. Sympathy and pity. That is different than empathy.
Sympathy is feeling sorry for someone - “There there, at least you were married.” If the words “at least” are used it is sympathy, which is a bit standoffish and reserved.
Empathy sits down with the person and listens. Empathy gives a handhold to stand. Empathy walks with the person. You’ve been there, and know how much the fire burns and hurts. And yet you return and walk right in and lend an ear, a shoulder, a hand. “Divorce feels like being gutted. It’s a horrible process.”
Compassion has an indifferent quality to it. It is kind and when required seemingly almost uncaring, which is paradoxically not the actual case. “There are two paths to divorce/separation, the emotional side and the business side, keep them separate.”
MLC is terrible. Boundaries to keep the toxicity away are necessary. They also allow compassion remain. Anger is normal and a healthy part of grief. For some the anger is short lived, for others it last for a while.
It takes time. Realize this shall pass, it is only temporary. Feel it, and let it go.
Originally Posted by wooba
I pictured myself telling H “I’m sorry for the pain I’ve caused you. Also I’d like you to know that I forgive you for all the pain you caused me.” It didn’t feel authentic to me. I guess I have not forgiven H.
Forgiveness is feelings, thoughts, beliefs all wrapped up into a way of life. It is very freeing, and very good for one’s soul and heart.
You need not tell H you’ve forgiven him. Forgiving H is more for you not hm. As counterintuitive as that currently feels.
Don’t worry, it will feel authentic sooner than you believe. It’s difficult to gauge one’s progress from how you are feeling.
Originally Posted by wooba
Other than that, I didn’t really feel enlightened or anything.
You are asking good questions, seeking knowledge and understanding, pondering, empathizing. I have full confidence in your revelations and the enlightenment you will find.
Keep walking the good path.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
