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Originally Posted by may22

I think it could take a long time for him to "rediscover" those in-love feelings, particularly if emotionally it got a little hot and heavy and maybe even scary for him during your S with the AP. I think it is normal to take some time. I also think that possibly the regular sex when you got back together could be part of the so-called 'hysterical bonding' thing and doesn't mean it will last-- think that comes and goes and then eventually you guys will need to re-establish the long-term emotional/physical intimacy. This also happened with my H where we had a lot of sex during the recommitting time and then fairly regularly in the spring, and then he said later it didn't feel like the staring into each others eyes ML that he was looking for (and presumably that he'd had with AP). In your case if it didn't get physical the imagination could be even harder to deal with for him than the real thing. Esther Perel talks about the stolen glances, little touches being more erotic than actual sex when it is forbidden, etc... so that could be part of it. He is imagining this head over heels fantasy that no spouse could ever fulfill. He has to get past that.
We spoke about EAP this morning. He is definitely not over her. She fulfilled something deeply emotional it seems - he made reference to the fact that even though it wasnt sexual, it was still a connection. I said I totally get that, and also acknowledge that often a EA is much more dificult to get over than a PA, and his had been going on for over a year, and he agreed that it is because of the lenght of the "friendship" it was hard and he felt guilty about hurting her. Unfortunately I did lash out a little and snapped that she has her own husband and her own marriage, perhaps she should be focusing on that anyway. In his favour however, he said his loyalty to me was far stronger than his loyalty to her, and that's why he broke contact, and why he wanted to come back.

Originally Posted by may22

I imagine this is going to be two steps forward, one step back for a long long time. My guess is that he's getting scared, feels like he is trying and it isn't happening and OMG DOES THIS MEAN HE WON'T EVER FEEL LIKE THAT AGAIN WHAT SHOULD HE DO!??!? he has got to chill and realize this is a marathon, not a sprint. (just like we do also.) I wonder if going off his ADs completely also might have something to do with it.
It is ALL about the missing sexual connection, but not just that, he said missing emotional connection - he doesnt feel emotional about having sex with me and he doesnt understand if that is normal or not, and he is hoping therapy can help him here. I did try and explain what I know and that recovering from an A of any kind you will have had feelings for your AP that you probably hadn't felt for your spouse for a long time, and it will take time to rediscover those feelings. That you may have experienced excitement, limerance, lust, etc and after 18 years with me probably wouldnt go through those same feelings. (That said, I do feel deeply emotional about sex with him, whereas he says he feels empty of emotion. He can lie in bed with me and feel this huge affection, but nothing more.)

Originally Posted by may22
As you know my H made a similar decision to stay and then three months in freaked out and reached back out to AP. I think my situation has some real differences, since AP was reaching out to him too, she is unmarried and thought he was going to leave me for her, etc etc., they had had a long PA and he has a huge amount of guilt etc. that he felt like he didn't really need to face if he left me that now he gets to deal with. And my H got scared that the in love feelings didn't come back in the three months of "trying". (never mind that he was still tracking her on find my friends and as far as I can tell made no significant effort to get her out of his head.) My guess is this is going to take a lot longer than three months and your H has got to be able to hang in there for the long term and stop freaking himself out if those feelings don't just pop back up in a couple of months.
I mentioned marathon not a sprint, that it might be two steps forward, one step back, that we might have times when we doubt and get scared, or feel hopeless. EAP is married but no kids. I'm sure I would feel more reassured that she wouldnt leave her H for mine if she had a family of her own. And I'm not actually sure H would have gone down that road with someone who had kids. I think part of the attraction for him is her ability to live a fun-filled life, rather than having motherly duties every evening/weekend. I have explained to him that although he has gone NC, by not blocking her on every channel, he is not protecting himself or the M if she reaches out. He already told me he couldnt ignore her if she reached out, and said he'd be polite but not encourage further contact. I said what if she says "hey I've missed you" or "hey, me and H have split up" - you'll be in a complete tailspin. I said I also dont want a repeat of the taxi saga (we were in a taxi on our way to the airport at Xmas for a weekend away together when she started sending texts to him at 7am asking why he hadnt contacted her, and how hurt she was. He tried to hide his phone from me - I yelled at the taxi driver to turn round and take me home! He reluctantly showed me the text, he didnt reply to it, but then the texts kept coming in. It really upset me, and in hindsight I wish I hadnt got on the plane with him.) So he has said he will block her. I havent pushed this further but will perhaps raise it with the MC tomorrow. I know that it wont stop him contacting her if he really wants to, but it might stop contact from the other direction. He went out this morning for an hour and I could see he was on Whatsapp when he had actually told me he was in the car on the way back. I basically accused him of contacting her. I felt so paranoid, I was shaking at the time. He explained he was stopped in a traffic jam...

I said to him if he is in touch with her, he is free to leave and that I'm not going to be part of any love triangle. He just OK, understood. We talked about the MC - I asked if he was going into this with a commitment to try and rebuild or that he didnt know still what he wanted. He said he wants to be committed to rebuilding but sometimes doesnt know if it's possible.

I'm so far off detachment and DBing. I cant keep my mouth shut, and keep asking questions and raising stuff about EAP, showing him I dont trust hm etc. All it's doing is making him feel more guilt about how much he's hurting me.


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
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EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
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Pommy,

I am really sorry you are having a setback.

If I remember your story correctly your sitch changed when your H thought you were interested in another guy? Then you moved him back in quickly and jumped right back into a relationship.

I post on here often the reconciliation musts in my opinion.

If you engage in a relationship with him again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) He sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) He views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) He's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, he's going to walk again down the line, because he really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

Once the threat of the OM is gone he no longer has to work for you. Sometimes things have to get worse before they can get better and that sometimes means a lengthy separation.

Originally Posted by Pommy99
However, I had been asking for reassurances that he still wanted to work things out as the ILY had stopped and he was showing little interest in intimacy.

This is a lot of pressure.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
Twice I said I needed to hear that he wanted to be in this and twice I simply got silence or ‘ok’, with no follow up.

Again, a lot of pressure.

He thought he may lose you and he was attracted to you again. Now he knows he has you and there is no fear in losing you. The person who cares the least is the one in control of the relationship.

Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having.

Again, I am really sorry you are going through this again.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Pommy,

I am really sorry you are having a setback.

If I remember your story correctly your sitch changed when your H thought you were interested in another guy? Then you moved him back in quickly and jumped right back into a relationship.

I post on here often the reconciliation musts in my opinion.

If you engage in a relationship with him again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) He sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) He views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) He's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, he's going to walk again down the line, because he really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

Once the threat of the OM is gone he no longer has to work for you. Sometimes things have to get worse before they can get better and that sometimes means a lengthy separation.

LH, thanks for your reply. I thought I had been taking things reasonably slowly but perhaps this has all moved too fast, he's got me where he wants me. He had asked early on in the recon if he could come away with me and the children to a holiday cottage that I had booked. It was 6 weeks away and I said "let's work towards that and see where we are". He did end up coming with us, because I thought it would be good for all of us to spend time as a family. He mentioned several times in the early weeks about moving back home, but I kept the brakes on, I told him I needed to feel that he was really into me, that this time it was for keeps. He was staying at home regularly but hadnt moved back. After about 8 weeks we agreed that he would tell his rental agency that he wasnt going to renew his lease in mid Sept. He is staying here full time and has moved a lot of his stuff back, but he still has the rental for another month, and as yet, it hasnt been re-let. I honestly dont know whether to ask him to leave and go back to his rental, or to have him at home while we see what MC has to offer. He is being incredibly affectionate, I've had more ILYs in 72 hours than I probably had in the last 2 months. He has said so many times he wants to try, and that before (i.e. last year) he didnt want MC but now he does. This is all so positive, and yet all I can see is last year on repeat, where he is asking for more time. He asked this in August (and November, and January). And all that got me last time was a heap of lies and deceit while he carried on his cake-eating and EA, and ultimately he walked 7 months later.

I dont know if I can give him more time. I do actually feel more in control than I realsied and I feel that I could cope if I asked him to leave now, whereas if I leave everything in his hands again, I'm going to be a complete mess the longer this limbo goes on. I realise now that if he is in contact with EAP I will kick him out in a heartbeat. No excuses this time.

Quote
He thought he may lose you and he was attracted to you again. Now he knows he has you and there is no fear in losing you. The person who cares the least is the one in control of the relationship.

Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having.

This is why I'm wondering if asking him to go back to his rental is a good idea - that he can see I'm not prepared to operate under these terms any more, and if he cant be a proper husband I dont want him here. On the other hand, he seems willing to cooperate and try and fix the problems. inwhich case, should we be doing this under the same roof? i think I will see what comes out of today's MC and if that makes things any clearer.


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020
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So, first session of MC done. It wasn’t a great experience, but I expected that the first one would be to pull out all the negative history of the SSM, EAP, and generally how we feel about each other. When I booked the MC appt it was supposed to have been along the lines of two people wanting to stay married and learn how to be of value to each other, forgiving, healing and looking forwards. Now it is clearly about H and his issues of not knowing how he feels about EAP, not having any desires for me (but we did get to hear about how he found EAP sexually attractive), but that he loves me in other ways. The MC seems very good and sees us focussing on H and his understanding of himself, H and what the EA means to him, and how we deal with the physical side of our relationship.

H is still craving those “in love “ feelings and deep physical desires . We had a talk after the session. I mentioned that I wasn’t sure if we should separate again. He said he didn’t see that in his plan, whereas I just feel that he will get to cake-eat for a few more months until he can decide whether he wants me, her or someone else. I said I don’t want to be in this triangle any more. He doesn’t see it that way. I’ve said that right now I don’t know what I want to happen, whether I even want to go down this road of more limbo, more pain, living with half a husband. He says he doesn’t want it to be that way, that he wants to be a proper husband, that he is committed to trying to making it work.

I get that he may not be over EAP, but I want to hear that in his mind she’s in the rear view mirror for good. Is that reasonable or not at this stage?

I’m confused right now.


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EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
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Originally Posted by Pommy99
He mentioned several times in the early weeks about moving back home, but I kept the brakes on, I told him I needed to feel that he was really into me, that this time it was for keeps.

Ok. So I am assuming this happened. What do you think changed?
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I honestly dont know whether to ask him to leave and go back to his rental, or to have him at home while we see what MC has to offer.

You have time to decide.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
He is being incredibly affectionate, I've had more ILYs in 72 hours than I probably had in the last 2 months. He has said so many times he wants to try, and that before (i.e. last year) he didnt want MC but now he does.
Hmmmmmmm.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
This is all so positive, and yet all I can see is last year on repeat, where he is asking for more time. He asked this in August (and November, and January). And all that got me last time was a heap of lies and deceit while he carried on his cake-eating and EA, and ultimately he walked 7 months later.

I think your gut is telling you something.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I do actually feel more in control than I realsied and I feel that I could cope if I asked him to leave now, whereas if I leave everything in his hands again, I'm going to be a complete mess the longer this limbo goes on.

This sentence seems like you are contradicting yourself.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I realise now that if he is in contact with EAP I will kick him out in a heartbeat. No excuses this time.

Good!
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I think I will see what comes out of today's MC and if that makes things any clearer.

I agree. See if he's there to put in the work or he's there to check boxes.

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Pommy99
He mentioned several times in the early weeks about moving back home, but I kept the brakes on, I told him I needed to feel that he was really into me, that this time it was for keeps.

Ok. So I am assuming this happened. What do you think changed?
I dont know. He says when he's not with me he misses me terribly and has this deep need for me, that I'm his rock, best friend, I offer him safety and that I'll never hurt him. He knew in his head what he wanted to feel but there is this big fiery passion missing for him, feelings of intense desire. Married 18 years - he's not sure what he's supposed to feel. Nor am I to be honest. We've had a very open conversation today however, and it felt good to get some of this stuff on the table. Maybe this is progress. He's telling me so much how much he loves me and will not give up without trying to fix this problem.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I honestly dont know whether to ask him to leave and go back to his rental, or to have him at home while we see what MC has to offer.

You have time to decide.
I talked to him about this yesterday. He was upset that I might want him to leave, whereas he really wants us to try. He seems as frightened of S/D as I am. This situation seems so bizarre. He cried yesterday and again today. He is feeling a mess and very depressed.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Pommy99
This is all so positive, and yet all I can see is last year on repeat, where he is asking for more time. He asked this in August (and November, and January). And all that got me last time was a heap of lies and deceit while he carried on his cake-eating and EA, and ultimately he walked 7 months later.

I think your gut is telling you something.
I'm still not sure how I feel on this - I'm wavering on this - one minute I dont think it's anything to do with EAP, the next I'm paranoid
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I do actually feel more in control than I realsied and I feel that I could cope if I asked him to leave now, whereas if I leave everything in his hands again, I'm going to be a complete mess the longer this limbo goes on.

This sentence seems like you are contradicting yourself.
Hmmm, I think I'm confused! I think I mean that right now I'm probably a little more detached and if he left again it wouldnt hurt as much as it will if I make myself fully vulnerable to him in order to repair the M. My wounds will be raw again.

I feel a little more positive, we are being very tactile with each other, we're talking openly and honestly and he is showing a lot of emotions and sharing his feelings with me. I'm still scared though, I'm on my own rollercoaster of fear, hope, rational thinking, irrational thinking, feeling hopeless and helpless, feeling positive and upbeat. Time to go and ride my bike for a couple of hours in the sunshine and forgot my worries smile


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
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P99,

So if he is being honest with you I am hopeful that it will work out. My MC once told me she had a 100% success rate when two people were working towards a better marriage.

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Hi Pommy! How are things going? One question I had-- in the MC session, did you guys talk about EAP being in the rearview mirror for good and how he was going to do that?

Also, thinking about how to balance what your needs are during this time and his-- when you said that the MC session was all about him and his feelings it totally brought me back to our MC/DC sessions which were exactly that, all about H's FEELINGS and not wanting to fake it and blah blah blah, with to the extent anything was about me, was MC validating me being upset about this but also me just needing to be okay with where H was at the time. I feel like I pushed down everything I was feeling in order to have some level of detachment or pretend detachment or whatever it was. Are you still in IC? if not, wondering if a session or two of focusing 100% on what YOU need and want outside of the context of MC could be helpful.

Hoping you got some sunshine and your roller coaster is slowing down! I know exactly how you feel. x M


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Originally Posted by may22
Hi Pommy! How are things going? One question I had-- in the MC session, did you guys talk about EAP being in the rearview mirror for good and how he was going to do that?
May, we had MC this morning. H has said this week and again this morning that she is gone, that he has no intention of being in touch and the thought of the deceit and lies makes him feel physically sick. He reiterated this in the session today. He said I didn't deserve to have been lied to, and it makes him feel sick and he would not go back down that road again. He finally gets it that I don't trust him and a couple of times has said that he knows he hasn't earned my trust but please believe him that there is no-one else involved. He took a phone call in the garden the other day while I was working upstairs with the window open, and then quickly moved to the front driveway out of earshot. This sent me into a bit of a spiral - a secret phone call in the garden was how I discovered the EA. He realized afterwards how it had looked and came up to show me his phone and who he had been talking to. It was a good friend of his whom he was confiding in and he explained that sometimes he will want privacy. I said that was fine - privacy and secrecy are different things. Little by little I am believing him that he is not in touch with her. At the back of my mind, however, is your H and the AP reaching out 4 months into NC.

The last few days has been up and down - H has been distant, which makes me distant, and then we feed off each other's negative energies. I said to him that I was finding the uncertainty difficult. His response is that he cant make any promises but he wants to try. That doesn't make me feel so great as it seems very non-committal. I raised this in MC, and said that when two people get married it's not a case of 'I cant promise we'll stay together but I'll try'. When you take your marriage vows you make a commitment to each other with the intention of staying together. Am I wrong? Am I asking for too much too soon? Is it just semantics? H said in the session that he is committed, but he can't control his feelings, and therefore there is no guarantee that this is going to work out. He said last night that he doesn't want S/D any more than I do, that when he left he realised that he didn't want S/D. When I type all this, it seems clear that H wants to try, I just need to settle myself and stop thinking that he's about to leave again. We're still not wearing our wedding rings. I mentioned this to H two weeks ago and he said that he wanted us to be able to put them back on together, I guess that moment still doesn't feel right for him. I know there will be a right time to do this.

We talked a lot about intimacy and what is missing. MC wants us to go back to basics now of non-sexual contact and just 'being' together, naked, etc, just talking, touching (non-sexual), spending time with the other person, no other distractions or expectations. I think this is good because I keep saying to H that although we spend time together, we aren't bonding beyond the best friend thing. There's no middle ground between being best friends and having (or avoiding) sex. In the midst of all this H blurted out that getting intimate with me invokes feelings of the old me (controlling, undermining) and he was alluding to feeling some kind of blocker from the past related to my controlling behavior and withholding intimacy from him, which makes him shut down emotionally when we're intimate. He got upset at this point. MC asked if he saw the old me when we are trying to get close and H said yes. That was near the end of the session but MC recognizes that the past is still an issue that we need to work on. It somehow ties in to my mum and her toxic influence in our marriage - H raised this, and spoke about how much he loathes her, and how she used to make him feel. I fully support him in what he said. I cant defend her in anyway. I have a lot to answer for on this subject also.

After the session H and I had a long, long hug and he said he felt really positive. I do feel positive, I need to keep reminding myself that he doesn't want S/D either. I need to believe that feelings can be switched on just as they have been switched off. I need to not overthink and just live in the moment. And I need patience...please send me some of your patience!!! smile


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T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020
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PM99,

You are in a great position right now that just about everyone on the board would love to be in where I truly believe your husband wants to start a marriage 2.0. I will give you some feedback.

Originally Posted by Pommy99
The last few days has been up and down - H has been distant, which makes me distant, and then we feed off each other's negative energies. I said to him that I was finding the uncertainty difficult.

This sounds like fear to me PM99 which leads to pressure which leads to control. What are you afraid of because what you fear you attract. Does that make sense?
Originally Posted by Pommy99
His response is that he cant make any promises but he wants to try.

He's being open and honest with you.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
That doesn't make me feel so great as it seems very non-committal.

This sounds like fear to me PM99 which leads to pressure which leads to control. What are you afraid of because what you fear you attract. Does that make sense?
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I raised this in MC, and said that when two people get married it's not a case of 'I cant promise we'll stay together but I'll try'. When you take your marriage vows you make a commitment to each other with the intention of staying together. Am I wrong? Am I asking for too much too soon?

You are not wrong but what if his feelings don't comeback and he says "I don't love you the way a man should love a woman and you deserve someone who does but since I made this statement (vow) xx many years ago I will stick it out" Does that work for you?
Originally Posted by Pommy99
H said in the session that he is committed, but he can't control his feelings, and therefore there is no guarantee that this is going to work out.

He's being open and honest with you.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
He said last night that he doesn't want S/D any more than I do, that when he left he realised that he didn't want S/D. When I type all this, it seems clear that H wants to try, I just need to settle myself and stop thinking that he's about to leave again.

What you fear you will attract and what you look at will disappear.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
We're still not wearing our wedding rings. I mentioned this to H two weeks ago and he said that he wanted us to be able to put them back on together, I guess that moment still doesn't feel right for him. I know there will be a right time to do this.

This sounds like fear to me PM99 which leads to pressure which leads to control. What are you afraid of because what you fear you attract. Does that make sense?
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I think this is good because I keep saying to H that although we spend time together, we aren't bonding beyond the best friend thing.

Sounds like you are trying to control the situation
Originally Posted by Pommy99
There's no middle ground between being best friends and having (or avoiding) sex. In the midst of all this H blurted out that getting intimate with me invokes feelings of the old me (controlling, undermining) and he was alluding to feeling some kind of blocker from the past related to my controlling behavior and withholding intimacy from him, which makes him shut down emotionally when we're intimate.

He's being open and honest with you.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
He got upset at this point.

Pressure
Originally Posted by Pommy99
MC asked if he saw the old me when we are trying to get close and H said yes.

He's being open and honest with you.
Originally Posted by Pommy99
After the session H and I had a long, long hug and he said he felt really positive.

So what are you afraid of PM99?
Originally Posted by Pommy99
I do feel positive, I need to keep reminding myself that he doesn't want S/D either. I need to believe that feelings can be switched on just as they have been switched off. I need to not overthink and just live in the moment. And I need patience...please send me some of your patience!!! smile

I agree!

I think the problem you are having PM99 is that you are still holding on too tight. You should be looking at this as an opportunity to start something new with H. If his feelings come back then great you have a marriage 2.0. If they do not you part amicably knowing you tried everything to make it work and truly mean it.

If you continue to operate from fear that you are not enough he most likely will have no choice but to believe you.

Good luck!

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