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GAL does not have to involve other people. Bike rides or bird watching are simple examples.

Keep track of how many times a day you can make any woman smile. Have a goal of increasing this number over time. Covid and masks should not be used as an excuse. Stay safe and interact with the safety in mind.

Cashiers are perfect people to practice with.

Have a great weekend. (This is a decision you make). Stay out of your head.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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Hi BL42, I saw your message and I'm getting caught up on your thread. WW's are a crazy bunch, b/c they don't use logic. They operate from their emotions........which is anything but stable. The LBH, who applies logic to everything, tries to figure out what he should do. The advice you get here will seem counter-intuitive to you, b/c most LBH's want to prove to their WW that he can be a better H, that he's committed, he loves her, and that he is ready to work on their M. However, as discouraging as it may sound, the WW isn't interested. She's done, and has moved on (at least, emotionally). Therefore, the more he tries to give her an opportunity to see him working to get good enough to have her.........he's actually setting himself up for more rejection and pain.

A few years ago, the board members would approach newcomers about 180's and tell him to list the things he needed to change, etc. Apparently, we gave them the idea they were to make 180's just to get his WW back. It was as if he saw his WW as a great prize, and he was trying to become some kind of super husband who won the prize. Some LBH's have difficulty in staying balanced, and I mean that as no offensive. They are under a terrible, emotional strain when they arrive on the board. Many of them have already read a library of marriage-saving books, searched the Internet, and whatever he could find. It can get a bit too much, b/c the emotional stress and a sense of feeling the clock ticking down can end in an overload, and you feel you are crashing. Sometimes, we might recommend a book, but we have to be careful, due to the board's policies. I suppose I said all of this to tell you that in your current sitch, you aren't going to be able to show her what a wonderful H you could be, b/c she has left you and she's involved with OM. Therefore, consider the changes you need to make as a man, and as a father. Learn where you made mistakes, and what you would do if in that scenario again. Am I making sense? I'll explain more as I post on your thread. In the meantime, don't hesitate to ask questions if I'm not making sense. smile

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I pressed my wife after that session referring two things her an OM discussed, so that she would really know I knew, and the next day she finally admitted to an EA and kissing, and that it was over and they were working on their marriages.


I have seen LBHs who have that need gnawing at them. I'm talking about the H who wants his WW to know he is on to her lies & deceit. IDK, but I think maybe it has to do with him letting her know she hasn't made a fool out of him. Perhaps he thinks it will lead to a confession. Very few WW will admit an A when first confronted, and H's give away their source of intell by trying to show his WW that he has proof. I've read stories of LBH's hiring PI's to follow his WW, and even when she was confronted with 8x10 glossy photos of her physically entangled with her lover..........she'd deny and lie. crazy

If a WW finally admits anything, it is usually only a portion of truth. Sometimes it's trickled down truth. In the beginning, she'll only admit to a lower level of the whole truth. Your W said there was kissing. I suspect there was a little more involved. She says the EA is over and that "they were working on their marriages". I doubt your W is the first woman this older man has preyed on at work, and I doubt the EA is really over. Are they still working together? Has she moved back into the marital home?

While I wait on the answers to those two questions, I'll give my thoughts on what could be going on with her. PPD is a very real thing that can last for years. I'm not a doctor, so I don't know which medication would be most effective, but I was prescribed Zoloft, and funny enough.......that's what I was taking when I crossed that inappropriate line and started talking to OM. That stuff just made me feel dead. From women I've talked to about Zoloft, it kills their sex drive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Zoloft for having an Internet A. The foundation for a wayward mindset was already there. I was really depressed and unhappy in my M, which didn't help matters........and neither did Zoloft.

You asked if she was a WW or if this was an exit affair. In some cases, I think there is an over-lap of the two. Just as with depression or other health issues, it can intensify things for her. She can be a WW and have an additional issue, too. See what I mean? If she has childhood issues, or whatever, she will probably need to see a professional for those problems. Unfortunately, the H who tries to tell his W she needs to do this or that.......is seen as a "fixer", and she's not very receptive to him fixing her. Has your W blamed you for the failure of the M, or for her unhappiness?

I'm a little concerned about what you see in her toward the baby girl. Maybe it is due to PPD, I just don't know. Did she want to get pregnant at that time? Was it a surprise? Is she a career-centered woman, working her way up the ranks? Just wondering if it is a bit of resentment.

It's a little odd, but not uncommon, that she wouldn't want to see an IC, considering she was depressed. I can understand why she wouldn't want to bother seeing a MC, b/c the M was done, and she had another guy in her head. So, where are things now?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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My children returned home from their vacation with my W and her family yesterday. It was so good to see them again.
My S5 ran over and gave me a huge hug and started running around the house all excited and telling me about his week. My W took my D1 out of the car and sat on the couch counseling her until she settled down (she was crying/cranky from the long car ride), at which point D1 gave me a huge smile and said "daddy!". They give me so much pride & joy.

The transition went fairly smoothly. My W told me about S5 going under the waves and I responded: "Wow, that's awesome!", and said my D1 didn't like sea weed and I responded "Oh, no kidding lol", but other than that there was little conversation/interaction between us as I focused on the kids. My son did ask my W when he'd see her again and is counting the days. He asked to video call her before bed so I did reach out to her for that but kept out of sight of the phone while they talked. I believe everyone here would say I handled the exchange well in terms of detachment.

Steve85 & Ready2Change - Thanks for the advice on GAL. Cards, grilling, golfing, dinner w/friends...etc. was a lot of fun, and much needed. I even spent the morning prepping the house, making the kids' rooms all nice and grocery shopping. Although I missed the kids a ton, I must admit it was good to have time for myself to have fun and get things done, and it helped to video call them each day.


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
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Originally Posted by sandi2
Hi BL42, I saw your message and I'm getting caught up on your thread. WW's are a crazy bunch, b/c they don't use logic. They operate from their emotions........which is anything but stable. The LBH, who applies logic to everything, tries to figure out what he should do. The advice you get here will seem counter-intuitive to you, b/c most LBH's want to prove to their WW that he can be a better H, that he's committed, he loves her, and that he is ready to work on their M. However, as discouraging as it may sound, the WW isn't interested. She's done, and has moved on (at least, emotionally). Therefore, the more he tries to give her an opportunity to see him working to get good enough to have her.........he's actually setting himself up for more rejection and pain.

That's definitely me. On BD I listened to her complaints and thought/said these are completely fixable "let's work this out and go to counseling", but she said she didn't have the energy or desire to work on it. Even so, I spent the next several months trying to address each and every issue and went above and beyond as a husband and father, to no avail.

Originally Posted by sandi2

A few years ago, the board members would approach newcomers about 180's and tell him to list the things he needed to change, etc. Apparently, we gave them the idea they were to make 180's just to get his WW back. It was as if he saw his WW as a great prize, and he was trying to become some kind of super husband who won the prize. Some LBH's have difficulty in staying balanced, and I mean that as no offensive. They are under a terrible, emotional strain when they arrive on the board. Many of them have already read a library of marriage-saving books, searched the Internet, and whatever he could find. It can get a bit too much, b/c the emotional stress and a sense of feeling the clock ticking down can end in an overload, and you feel you are crashing. Sometimes, we might recommend a book, but we have to be careful, due to the board's policies. I suppose I said all of this to tell you that in your current sitch, you aren't going to be able to show her what a wonderful H you could be, b/c she has left you and she's involved with OM. Therefore, consider the changes you need to make as a man, and as a father. Learn where you made mistakes, and what you would do if in that scenario again. Am I making sense? I'll explain more as I post on your thread. In the meantime, don't hesitate to ask questions if I'm not making sense. smile

Me again. I read "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman, "The Love Dare" by the Kendrick Brothers, read Focus on the Family articles, watched every video on "Affair Recovery" and "Marriage Helper" even with head phones in the living room while she texted OM (saying it was just her girlfriend), and finally ended up on Divorce Busting website and read NMMNG and bought DR & DB. I've also been in weekly IC since February. I'm starting to understand I need to work on myself rather than "fixing" the relationship.

Originally Posted by BL42
I pressed my wife after that session referring two things her an OM discussed, so that she would really know I knew, and the next day she finally admitted to an EA and kissing, and that it was over and they were working on their marriages.

Originally Posted by sandi2
I have seen LBHs who have that need gnawing at them. I'm talking about the H who wants his WW to know he is on to her lies & deceit. IDK, but I think maybe it has to do with him letting her know she hasn't made a fool out of him. Perhaps he thinks it will lead to a confession. Very few WW will admit an A when first confronted, and H's give away their source of intell by trying to show his WW that he has proof. I've read stories of LBH's hiring PI's to follow his WW, and even when she was confronted with 8x10 glossy photos of her physically entangled with her lover..........she'd deny and lie. crazy

There may have been an aspect of it for me to prove I wasn't fooled - my W & OM mocked me a bit saying "he got nothing"...etc - but I think it was more that the truth had to come out for us to have any chance of working on our marriage/family and if it came out it might jolt her into realizing the mistake she was making. Obviously that didn't work.

Originally Posted by sandi2
If a WW finally admits anything, it is usually only a portion of truth. Sometimes it's trickled down truth. In the beginning, she'll only admit to a lower level of the whole truth. Your W said there was kissing. I suspect there was a little more involved. She says the EA is over and that "they were working on their marriages". I doubt your W is the first woman this older man has preyed on at work, and I doubt the EA is really over. Are they still working together? Has she moved back into the marital home?

I'm certain you're right there was more than kissing, based on the information/evidence I have. I pressed her on a Wednesday morning, she went to work Wednesday night, admitted the EA & kissing on Thursday morning, and I later found out OM told his wife either Friday or Saturday (on their 15th wedding anniversary). The timing seems suspiciously coordinated, like they had discussed a plan Wednesday night to admit the minimal amount. Obviously she wasn't interested in working on the marriage. OM's W does know about the affair now, but is sticking her head in the sand purposefully for the benefit of their 3 daughters, so OM doesn't have a lot of incentive to end things. My W claims they did end things, but based on what I knew before (and what I've read about EAs/PAs) I doubt it's over. My wife moved out into her mother's house a month ago, and is moving into our 2nd house next week (after our tenants move out). My W and OM do still work together, but are working remotely teaching classes at the hospital virtually from home (instead of in an office setting as before) so they have less occasion to be physically together although they can just as easily use work IM or video claims to continue the EA. I can't know for sure. Either way, she's full force into separation (moved out a month ago, took her phone off family plan, redirected mail, and is moving into our other house next week).

Originally Posted by sandi2
While I wait on the answers to those two questions, I'll give my thoughts on what could be going on with her. PPD is a very real thing that can last for years. I'm not a doctor, so I don't know which medication would be most effective, but I was prescribed Zoloft, and funny enough.......that's what I was taking when I crossed that inappropriate line and started talking to OM. That stuff just made me feel dead. From women I've talked to about Zoloft, it kills their sex drive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Zoloft for having an Internet A. The foundation for a wayward mindset was already there. I was really depressed and unhappy in my M, which didn't help matters........and neither did Zoloft.

In terms of PPD, I don't know for sure but she certainly treated D1 dramatically different as a baby than S5. With S5 she ALWAYS went to him and cuddled him whereas with D1 for awhile she was making snide/mean comments, not going to her when she was crying, and sometimes scolding me for picking her up. W has admittedly gotten much better with D1 in the last few months since I called her out on it and said D1 needed more love. My mom suspects PPD, and I wonder. In terms of Zoloft, she's been on it since she was a teenager (15-20 years) and recently (late 2019 or early 2020 tried to wean off, so I also wonder if that's a factor. Her sex drive was definitely an issue for me over the last few years, and it did mean me agitated/resentful at times. I do wonder if that was the Zoloft.

Originally Posted by sandi2
You asked if she was a WW or if this was an exit affair. In some cases, I think there is an over-lap of the two. Just as with depression or other health issues, it can intensify things for her. She can be a WW and have an additional issue, too. See what I mean? If she has childhood issues, or whatever, she will probably need to see a professional for those problems. Unfortunately, the H who tries to tell his W she needs to do this or that.......is seen as a "fixer", and she's not very receptive to him fixing her. Has your W blamed you for the failure of the M, or for her unhappiness?

Yes. She blames me for the failure of the marriage. She now says things like "You've been beating me down for 5 years since S5 was born" and "I haven't been happy since we were married"...etc. That IS NOT true, but I accept it's true in her mind. Her mom did the same thing to her dad/family when W was 12; it seems like she's repeating history, despite reassuring me many times when we were dating/engaged she never wanted to do that.

Originally Posted by sandi2
I'm a little concerned about what you see in her toward the baby girl. Maybe it is due to PPD, I just don't know. Did she want to get pregnant at that time? Was it a surprise? Is she a career-centered woman, working her way up the ranks? Just wondering if it is a bit of resentment.

D1 wasn't a surprise. We weren't necessarily actively trying, but we also weren't NOT trying either, if that makes sense. As far as I know she was happy about it. We had happy pregancy pictures, and put together the nursery and all that - I didn't notice any depression with the pregnancy. W is career-centered NOW, but that's a big change from a few years ago when she was happily working part-time and even considered leaving work when S5 was born.

Originally Posted by sandi2
It's a little odd, but not uncommon, that she wouldn't want to see an IC, considering she was depressed. I can understand why she wouldn't want to bother seeing a MC, b/c the M was done, and she had another guy in her head. So, where are things now?

Maybe my post was confusing but W is going to IC. She was in counseling for many years before we met and has started to go again either late 2019 or early 2020. W truly belives in counseling, and that's why I was so perplexed she wouldn't go with me to work on our marriage, especially with 2 young children. She finally agreed in May to go to MC but it was only for 3 weeks and obvious she didn't want to really work on it - not sure if she was just there to prep for S/D or to tell people "we even tried counseling".

Current status: I'm living in our martial home with the kids, W has been living in her mother's home for a month, and plans to move into our 2nd house next week and prep it for the kids (she wants to do every other week) when they return from vacation with me and my family the following week. She's retained an attorney (as have I, now) and we were going back and forth on child custody and support, though I haven't heard back from her L on that front for two weeks now. W shows NO signs of any wavering, indecision, or even crumbs to keep me as Plan B (at least in front of me) like I've read out in other people's situations and seems to be full force towards separation & divorce. I believe I've been doing well detaching and GAL for the last month or two, but if I'm being honest there's a part of me who doesn't want his family to break up, despite the deceit.


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
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I am very much in a similar situation as you BL42 so know what your going through man. It sounds like your feeling the way I am feeling right now where I have this level of acceptance that the marriage is over which makes me feel uneasy but this small burning sense of hope that the situation will turn around.

Of course I heard all the same sort of stuff in relation to the blame shifting onto the marriage and on to me and the famous ILYBNILWY speech. Its all scripted and it amazes me the same path that WW wifes walk. Started as EA and turned to PA.

My WW is currently out of the house and she is ploughing ahead with getting a new house rental setup so I am not holding hope that this is going to turn around any time soon if ever.

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BL, you have an invaluable resource engaged in your sitch! You cannot do any better than sandi. I will be here to support you but typically do not interfere when sandi is giving out her invaluable advice.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
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Originally Posted by BL42
Current status: I'm living in our martial home with the kids, W has been living in her mother's home for a month, and plans to move into our 2nd house next week and prep it for the kids (she wants to do every other week) when they return from vacation with me and my family the following week. She's retained an attorney (as have I, now) and we were going back and forth on child custody and support, though I haven't heard back from her L on that front for two weeks now. W shows NO signs of any wavering, indecision, or even crumbs to keep me as Plan B (at least in front of me) like I've read out in other people's situations and seems to be full force towards separation & divorce. I believe I've been doing well detaching and GAL for the last month or two, but if I'm being honest there's a part of me who doesn't want his family to break up, despite the deceit.


None of us here want(ed) our families to break up. It take two people to make a joint decision to get married. It only takes one to make the decision to get divorced.

This is one of those counter-intuitive things. You have fully embrace the divorce path you are on. In parallel, you work your tail off to bust the divorce.

You do not roll over like a puppy dog and give her everything she wants. You do not do things to spite her. You use your logic. 50/50 parenting is best for the kids. 50/50 split of assets. 50/50 split of debt.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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WMWB - Your children are older than mine, but otherwise it sounds like our sitches are very similar. Both our wives met OM at work and are moving forward (cell phone, finances, new residence) fast. It's rough but hang in there...I'm a lot better than I was several months ago.

Steve85 - The more the merrier! Feel free to chime in with advice even though sandi2 responded! It helps to hear from people, even though I haven't even met any of the folks on this board.

Ready2Change - The hardest part of this for me is losing the dream of a intact family unit, especially with my kids being so young, but to your point I need to accept I have no say in the matter.


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
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Originally Posted by BL42
he hardest part of this for me is losing the dream of a intact family unit, especially with my kids being so young, but to your point I need to accept I have no say in the matter.


I think this is a good time to share with you one of my favorite quotes:

-Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you react to it.-

Your kids are going to be fine as long as you are their rock. Be the best father that you can be despite how flaky their mother becomes. Resolve to react to this crappy turn in your life by continuing to be the best father to your kids.

You cannot control her or what she does, but you have full control of yourself.


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Earlier this month, when my W dropped off the kids after the 4th of July weekend, she informed me she had talked to S5 about "Mommy moving to a different house/getting a divorce" on her own without me. We had had multiple conversations including with our MC about handling it the right way with the kids and the importance of us talking to the kids together to explain the situation and even reading some kids books about S/D, so it infuriated me to no end she would proceed unilaterally and be with the the kids for 2 days without me even knowing she had that discussion. We had previously agreed to do it together closer to the end of the month! I have been extremely calm and respectful to her over the last 5 months, but lost my cool a bit that evening, telling her how "wildly inappropriate" it was and shutting the garage door before she was ready to leave. We were both together with the kids the morning before and her mom's house is only a mile away; we could've talked together! I later saw she had taken the kids books we had purchased to use with her, so I believe it was intentional/pre-planned and not "on a whim".

That incident, even more so than the affair (as odd as that sounds), got me angry and really seeing her in a different light. It's one thing to be mean to me, but how could she handle such an important situation with my S5 without consideration for the best approach for him?!? It's not right. My son was sad/crying that week and I did my best to talk to him about it, but he gets quiet, calms up, and internalizes it. I did reach out to the grade school social worker and psychologist asking about programs/support for my S5 entering Kindergarten and will do anything to get him the help

Since that incident I actually had a relatively "good" 2-3 weeks. Between having the kids and GAL'ing while they were on a week of vacation with her (albeit missing them), I thought was making great progress on detaching and being happier with life. However, this week was a set back. I got an email from my L about divorce documents and a child support letter (which the amount is higher than they previously/verbally agreed to) - each time I get something like that it's like a knife to the heart / punch in the gut. My wife also returned our EZPass and asked for our double stroller, I wrote my first two child support checks, and my parents had a conversation with my in-laws - turns our their family vacation wasn't so happy, and they're completely on my side and don't support what their daughter is doing - so all of that was really tough. It certainly feels like this week was a regression, and made me realized I'm not as far along in detachment as I had hoped. However...next week I'm taking the kids on vacation with my family so that'll be fun and hope it helps gets me back on track!


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
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