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And as for understanding the past? We're not talking about rewriting history, but maybe taking off the rose-colored glasses and realizing the truth of who your husband was and is. He controlled the finances in a way that benefits him in the divorce and that was not a true partnership. He treated you in ways you recognize your mother would have considered abusive.

There's a lot that's abusive about the way he treated you, even if it wasn't physically abusive. It's important for you to recognize that so you don't fall into another abusive relationship in the future.

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Originally Posted by cardinal
Kindly, I wanted my meeting to make me feel empowered and businesslike, but instead I feel vulnerable and like I won’t be able to convey to anyone accurately how H is trying to bully me.

Hiya, I’m so sorry that Your meeting was not empowering or fully on your side with regards to the house and car. Some of what they said may be the facts but it took me 3 consultations before I found someone who I liked...unfortunately that didn’t mean “what I wanted to hear”. Not for a second am I suggesting that that is what you are doing but I think it’s good to remember (and I have to tell myself this too) that any knowledge is empowering because it gives you educated choices and a more guided path. I spent the first half a year hiding from not wanting to hear that I can’t afford to stay in my house. I then decided that doesn’t matter right now ...that’s a future problem that can’t be figured out now, but I can save like crazy, pick up extra jobs and start pursuing the option of getting a room mate. It was time for me to get creative IF I want to even try and stay here....

Not to mention how much they change their minds ...H may be saying he’s staying cause he knows it’s a good button to push with you...be large and in charge! This home is as much yours as it is his right now! NOBODY puts baby in a corner! (Sorry couldn’t resist)

I don’t fully believe my L understands the bullying and abusive dynamic either but she follows my wishes and gives good legal advice.

Ie: I told her this was going to be a slow moving train....those words left my mouth based on wisdom from this site but I had no idea at the time just how slow ...and I’m still only a year in. She sits and waits for H or H’s L to make a move and is baffled when weeks and weeks go by. His L has even set 3 deadlines now over 5 months to exchange disclosure...still hasn’t happened!! I believe that once a L starts working with you they will begin to see just from H’s behaviours. Document everything...every attack, every threatening situation...even if nothing can be done about it better to have everything at your finger tips. Also empower yourself by maybe picking up a night shift somewhere ...it’ll get you out of the house more and extra income ...(I know easier said than done right now...but you never know)

Definitely go for another consult, I found I was really able to build a better understanding of what he could and couldn’t do after multiple consults. Thinking of you and hope this next one feels a little better.
((((Hugs)))

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Hello cardinal

Something I had found myself to be doing back during my separation - trying to ensure my L understood how irrational XW is.

Lawyers have seen all kinds of clients, both beside and across the table from them. The L is a professional who is meant to remain dispassionate and therefore not get wrapped up in how irrational our spouse is being. The law isn’t swayed, or changes, because someone is behaving irrationally. This is a business deal. Emotions stay at the door.

I would hazard that given H’s current propensity for being unreasonable, mediation is probably more a waste of money and not worth the risk.

Originally Posted by cardinal
L said the court won’t make a decision or ask either party to leave the house, so it will be up to us to come to an agreement.

Coming to an agreement sounds unlikely from what you have said regarding H’s behaviour. However, if he really wants to stay that is advantage to you for negotiating.

Originally Posted by cardinal
...rent hasn’t risen in years so is much lower than the current market, not to mention leaving would mean leaving our chickens and the neighborhood cats I care for.

Yes, you have grown accustom to your home and neighbourhood. You need not leave. And H doesn’t have to. Is there an amount you would need or would be willing to leave for? Just food for thought.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Basically, I feel there is no end in sight. H won’t leave, and I will be living here with him indefinitely, while nothing moves forward with D (assuming he actually files this time).

Feel - I will discuss below.

Feelings aside for the moment, a recommended position when considering these business ideas. You are still leaving the heavy lifting to H? These meetings are only gathering information and only preparing if H gets a divorce petition in order?

You need not look so far ahead as indefinite. How is your financial position currently? Do you need protection? Do you think things will remain ok until you find better financial footing?

H may not file, as his history shows.

Not too much has actually changed. Although, it feels different.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I wanted my meeting to make me feel empowered and businesslike, but instead I feel vulnerable and like I won’t be able to convey to anyone accurately how H is trying to bully me.

I’m sorry your meeting left you feeling less strong.

Feelings will flit when not reinforced.

cardinal, you are a strong woman. The meeting is for information. You become empowered and businesslike through action. Note: Be empowered not feel empowered.

I get it. The feeling of being vulnerable. It’s ok. It’s real. It’s a feeling. And you are more than feelings. You are smart and capable. You have values, beliefs, and convictions. You are important and have value. Please see passed the bullying. Don’t get swept up in H’s nastiness.

Originally Posted by Kindly
Definitely go for another consult, I found I was really able to build a better understanding of what he could and couldn’t do after multiple consults. Thinking of you and hope this next one feels a little better.

I really like Kindly’s post.

You are building an understanding and multiple consults do help.

However, and I do get the intended sentiment, you don’t need to feel you have a good lawyer, you need to know it.

Our feelings are a bit mixed up during this time, and therefore not the best indicator of desirable course of action.

My L - I didn’t feel good about it. I felt sick. What I was doing. It was so wrong. Of course, I was what was wrong. I was all messed up. My L was actually top shelf (which took a while to feel that way).

Originally Posted by cardinal
I did also get stuck here, though:

Originally Posted by DnJ

Ask yourself this:

Was I happy in my marriage?

Overall. Don’t focus on a couple of bad incidences, over the 10 years of marriage, over the 16 years together. Look overall.

Was I happy? Maybe I'm too far in this mess to trust my answer right now. Did I love him? I can answer that wholeheartedly: Yes.

That is a good answer.

As this mess clears you will see better. For now, you cannot trust your answer, so don’t. Have faith - in yourself, in your past actions.

There was a time I questioned my past and my marriage. Was I actually happy? I didn’t have an answer. I had pictures, letters, and such. But no corroborating feelings. In time, clarity resumes and one’s past envelopes them again. Wholehearted answers and beliefs will, and do, live and breathe within us.

Just takes some time.

D


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Kindly, kml, D, thank you so much for your support here! Kindly, did I mention this last L made a joke about domestic violence? I don't think I could go with him after that. I am hoping my second consult with the other L on Monday makes me feel better, because I'll have been through all the recommended Ls at that point.

Originally Posted by kml
Well bear in mind H cannot evict you so long as you keep your side of the street clean. So if you stay put he has no choice other than to stay living there with you or to move out himself. If he has an OW she will probably get tired of him living with his wife eventually.


Originally Posted by DnJ
Feelings aside for the moment, a recommended position when considering these business ideas. You are still leaving the heavy lifting to H? These meetings are only gathering information and only preparing if H gets a divorce petition in order?

You need not look so far ahead as indefinite. How is your financial position currently? Do you need protection? Do you think things will remain ok until you find better financial footing?


I am confused, partly because of 1) all the feelings I'm having and partly because 2) I just don't understand what the next available/best steps are for me. Maybe you all can help guide me in either side of this, the feelings or the logical side.

1) Feelings: yes, everything you describe, D--I feel sick, what I am doing, it's all wrong, even as I know seeking a L and probably eventually hiring a L is what is logical and needed. The other feelings are all stirred up and uncovered by the last spewing episode: still the shock at the extent of H's anger and his attempts to shame me (which I know is probably stemming from his own feelings of hurt, shame, guilt), as well as all the energy it is taking to try to push off the shame I feel as a result. It is that bit of truth underneath everything, H saying I broke his heart in the midst of his accusations--all of that messes with me even as I try to step back and recognize I should not be taking on all the stuff he threw at me.

Branching from that (I wish I could draw a flow chart here!): trying to keep separate spewing/current H from H I married, who, yes, had some controlling tendencies and anger that he didn't understand and so turned both inward and, as time went on, outward, but it was never anything like it is now. I think it's easy for me to feel terrible about this being the man I married, about not recognizing some of the ways he was controlling during the M or not setting stronger boundaries during arguments when his language was not respectful. As kml says, I can take off the rose-colored glasses and recognize some of this, and how I would react differently to it in another relationship or, if I could go back, in this one. But when I feel like I'm thinking a bit more clearly and not under the cloud of the current spewing, I think H slowly turned into the H he is now--he wasn't always this way. It happened gradually over time because H didn't/doesn't know how to process his own feelings or be in an R, friendship or M, without erasing himself and his own needs.

Branching from that is the fear of--as this goes on and as we enter D process at some point--just being witness to more of ugly H and having those memories coexist in my mind with who he was before. I know who he is currently, and I don't want to experience any more of that H! I don't need to. I'd rather try to hold on to a more balanced version of H, and the more spewing that happens, the more I feel those memories being muddied. This might be easier if we weren't in the same small house, so that I could simply limit my contact with current H. I absolutely have to walk away if he tries to spew in the future, because I don't need any more of that echoing in my head, right? I am not in a place where I can just let it slide off me--it seeps in and I find myself internalizing all the blame.

2) What do I need to do to protect myself? What next steps do I need to take? I was viewing these consults as getting more info to counteract my fear of H's last threats and to know which L I would go with once I am served and need help navigating this process. H is supposed to give me the financial docs I asked for on August 16--I wanted these docs before we would even begin to discuss an agreement. If I don't have D papers by then, does it really matter if he's given me docs or not? Do I need to push myself or him to make forward progress on any of this? Things on my mind related to this:

--He's already admitted to using half of our savings (that I can't access) to pay his credit card debt, and he could decide to spend the rest of the money from our savings,. According to the L, if this is indeed to pay debt on his credit card that was incurred while we were M, this kind of thing happens all the time and I can't do anything about it. If he does this and it turns out, once I was able to go through his card statements in discovery, there were big expenses he incurred after separation, then I would be entitled to some of that money back.

--It's still status quo right now with our joint checking, and with H still paying joint bills from it. I am not making much money (reduced hours and unemployment b/c Covid). I will, however, have a decent temporary paycheck in November/December because I'll be teaching for three months, so my plan is to open up my own savings account by then so that that money can be deposited there. I'm not risking H paying off his credit card with it.

--As kml points out with the house, it seems like status quo is my only option for now: I don't want to leave (and it is better financially for me not to leave), so I won't. Maybe Kindly is right--H changed his mind on moving out one week and changed it back, so maybe he will get tired of it at some point and decide to leave. How does it help me right now to worry about this aspect of the agreement we're apparently supposed to come to at some point?

Is this all making some kind of sense? I think H bringing up filing and how we can come to an agreement ourselves set me spinning and pushed me to take action: I asked for financial docs and he freaked out, threatened to leave me with nothing, so I started consulting L again. I'm feeling all kinds of pressure and I can't quite tell if it's coming from the need to do something or the illusion that I need to do something. In short:

Originally Posted by DnJ
Our feelings are a bit mixed up during this time, and therefore not the best indicator of desirable course of action.


Originally Posted by Kindly
Ie: I told her this was going to be a slow moving train....those words left my mouth based on wisdom from this site but I had no idea at the time just how slow ...and I’m still only a year in.


I think this is also a big fear of mine, and, yeah, it's typical of the sitches on this site for the D to drag on, isn't it? Maybe that's also why I am feeling pressure to do something. I don't want to be stuck with alien H any longer than I have to at this point. I want to hold onto my old memories and focus on my new life without H. I know that I can still strive to do this while living with alien H, but it's not the same, is it? Seeing him like this is affecting how I feel about old H. I know I will be mentally and physically healthier on my own. But: I can't control whether he chooses to stay in this house. I choose not to leave because it would hurt me financially in the present and future, and, yes, there are the pets here I couldn't take with me.


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Hello cardinal

Feelings: They will change. Have faith.

Continue gathering information and further understanding about what your rights are and where you stand. No need to push further than that, for now.

I do get how sickening that feels. You know different; it just takes time for one’s emotions to catch up.

H’s spewing, behaviour, and words do seem to seep in, don’t they? It takes time to find one’s way through that.

The fear - of more ugly H and more unwanted memories. Those are definitely future events which are irrationally tied to and triggering...what. Fear is the emotional feedback from that unrealized state which is triggered by these ideas/events. Uncouple them.

From my perspective you speak of spew from H, the muddling of memories, and taking on blame. I agree you do not need that echoing within your head. Realize you are the one creating the echo and the fear. This is good news, since you created them, you can also stop them.

Mental assertiveness. Let go cardinal. Place your focus upon yourself.

So how to uncouple? Rationalize these irrational feedback loops. See new H and let him be. Know his path is his path and has nothing to do with you. More ugly H - so what. What can he do? Really what else can he do? Nothing. Fear not.

Welcome your new memories. These are the steps of you becoming better. Do not fret over your old memories, they will not be lost. Let go and have faith. Become.

The roots of fear are deep and focused upon self. Hurt and pain are at the root of our fears, fed by our imagination.

One fears divorce because they will suffer loss. Loss of spouse, status, money, kids, possessions, etc. One imagines all the terrible scenarios of such a loss. The pain and hurt that could result, which is much exaggerated.

These feelings get triggered by those events (ugly H and such). We feel and therefore incorrectly tie the event to the painful feelings. The next time we consider that event, the same painful feelings arise. Soon we fear that event. One perceives a threat of pain and becomes paralyzed to act.

You can uncouple at three places. The event - tie it to another emotion. With that there is no feedback loop.

The feedback itself - see it and push through it. Realize the irrational feedback response and hold to your course regardless. After, you realize there was little to be afraid of.

The root - the source of all fears. Realizing and accepting our own imagination is the root of our pain, hurt, and therefore fear. Fearless.

This all takes time to accomplish. Utilize and work on all three depending upon what you face. The grail is of course accepting the root of your fear, for that will affect and change everything.

Fear is the belief of threat of pain or hurt.

Fearless sees how that belief is imagined by us. Sees how fear lives in the future and doesn’t actually exist. Fearless is not reckless, it recognizes concerns and danger and takes appropriate action.

Next available/best steps: You want to remain living where you are. It is good financially. Do that.

Let go your fear. Focus upon yourself.

Dial down the pressure upon yourself. You don’t need to do anything right now.

Utilize your gift of time.

Don’t fear. You are doing fine.

D


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Originally Posted by cardinal
Is this all making some kind of sense? I think H bringing up filing and how we can come to an agreement ourselves set me spinning and pushed me to take action: I asked for financial docs and he freaked out, threatened to leave me with nothing, so I started consulting L again. I'm feeling all kinds of pressure and I can't quite tell if it's coming from the need to do something or the illusion that I need to do something.


Originally Posted by cardinal
I think this is also a big fear of mine, and, yeah, it's typical of the sitches on this site for the D to drag on, isn't it? Maybe that's also why I am feeling pressure to do something. I don't want to be stuck with alien H any longer than I have to at this point. I want to hold onto my old memories and focus on my new life without H. I know that I can still strive to do this while living with alien H, but it's not the same, is it? Seeing him like this is affecting how I feel about old H. I know I will be mentally and physically healthier on my own. But: I can't control whether he chooses to stay in this house. I choose not to leave because it would hurt me financially in the present and future, and, yes, there are the pets here I couldn't take with me.


Hi Cardinal,

I can not echo enough what Dnj has said. He wrote a long post on my thread about the very same thing as my H leaped right into this L process early on. Yet as you know here I sit without even a SA basically 1 year in.

You are also fully correct in that it is a lot for our jumbled minds and hearts to process. I’m going to sound like a big girl here but I’m fully aware I’m channeling Dnj and others....we have to drop the rope even more. How do we do this when we feel threatened, scared and unclear of our path. FOCUS on what matters and what we CAN do. (I’m fully aware this only gets us so far....but it does help)

I like how you said in your last paragraph “I can’t control whether he chooses to stay....” EXACTLY we have zero control or influence over our H’s decisions or behaviours...BUT your next sentence says “I CHOOSE NOT TO LEAVE...”
that right there IS you doing something. You choosing to go see L’s IS you doing something. You bettering yourself financially with your upcoming teaching job IS you doing something. It just seems small and slow.

I remember reading and rereading Dnj’s words about this exact topic (thank ya!!!) and something clicked with me. I realized that I’m a fixer, a person of action and usually logic. I get poop done! This MLC is a slow moving train that never runs on time, sometimes I don’t even think it’s travelling on the tracks smile (I digress...as I could have fun with this)
My point being, H’s actions are slow and confused, but we naturally want to react fast and rational. It doesn’t mix well.
When I got my answers from L (whether favourable or not) it gave me options, info and a small path to start walking. Walking NOT running....sometimes crawling.

H’s spewing and threats 100% create fear. I find the times I can recognize that fear forming, I refocus on what I can do to stop it and usually it’s get educated about something or IGNORE him. At the beginning of this I hid. I didn’t want to know anything. I didn’t want to think about paying a L, losing the house, moving, half-ing my assets, my pension (he doesn’t have one) and all the other things that go with this that creates instability. I know all situations are different but he got a L day 5 after BD ...I was harassed horribly to “get a lawyer” by him AND his mom. I was sick, scared and almost in the hospital from that 4 letter word ...fear. This has continued for basically 365 days at this point...asking for my F docs, asking what my L is doing, emails accusing me of holding things up and guess what...nothing has happened. He wants this...in my opinion it’s up to him to see it thru...I’m not leaving either (yet anyway). My L has all of my info ...his L has asked mine 3 times to exchange docs and then disappears, so mine just patiently stands by as per my instructions. I too constantly feel like I should be doing something or doing more. I have to remind myself I have done something, I’ve done lots of somethings. This is his MLC ...I’m a gal trying to get back up on my 2 feet the best way I know how. There’s no handbook for this ...just these wonderful people and friends here.

In my opinion, and a veteran can correct if I’m not accurate...don’t ask him for anything! Let him do the lifting especially if you’ve chosen to stay. His threats and words make it seem like he wants to push things alone but his actions speak volumes whether it’s confusion or not really wanting to go. I think this comes back to them feeling pressure. Mine yells “I’m not living in the basement anymore” ...yet there he is with enough money to go at any time. I think he spews when someone gets in his head or when I question him or unintentionally provoke him in some way. Best way to not do this is to ignore ignore ignore.

Which brings me to my last point for which I am 10000% on the same page as you right now...and will write this on my own thread as well.... Alien H affecting memories of old H, Mentally and physically healthier being on our own and how much longer can I live like this....I sometimes feel like what’s the point. Why am I hanging onto this, staying here, holding on for what? I don’t want to go but I’m tired of coming home to this ....I don’t know how to detach further when His behaviour and actions are constantly in our face.

You are ok Cardinal, keep gathering your info and doing your best to get yourself in a safe financial position. Is there anyway you can get half of what remains in your joint account now and start your own account ASAP? As we’ve read on here they are not good with money. Keep records of everything ...write it down and date it....if he’s spent and paid personal bills after your separation date you are definitely entitled to half of that back....my H is angry currently because my L is making him do 2 FA one for his proposed separation date and a 5 month after one for my proposed date ...he earned and spent like crazy as soon as HE set a S date...my L saw right through that.

Find someone that will work for you. I too was confused about exchanging F docs....I highly recommend you don’t get it yourself from H ...he’s already proven untrustworthy and the numbers prob won’t be accurate. My H flat out lied and omitted major assets.

I would focus on:
- finding a lawyer you know will work for you and that understands the “unique timeline “ of your sitch, you don’t care if they understand how you’re being treated ...they are all business and usually don’t care for “he said she said”
-if you haven’t already, get a blank copy of the FD document and fill yours out ...do as much as you can do to prep yourself....1. It’s empowering and 2. It will cost you less if the L doesn’t have to do it
- jot down any unique situations to discuss with L like the cars and your current financial situation (Joint account) and ask what you can do to protect yourself.
- get your own CC now if you don’t have one and only buy what you can afford ...don’t make a mess for yourself
-get your name off any joint CC’s as soon as possible

That’s all I can think of for now. Sorry for the long reply. I feel for you as I was and am right where you are. I’m cheering for you and know you’ve got this!! WE are the focus not the alien we currently live with.

(((((Hugs)))))
Kindly,

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Cardinal, let me be the millionth person to say that it doesn't feel this way right now, but YOU WILL BE FINE. I would even guess that a couple of years from now you will be better than fine, you will be THRIVING. I know it is so, so, so, so hard right now, but if you can let yourself think that for even 2 seconds each day, it will eventually bring you a level of comfort.

You and I share the spewing Hs, rewritten histories and memories of a better M. Can I give you permission to let go of your need to cling to your memories and the better H you married? DnJ put it perfectly that there will be a period of time when that no longer serves you, but it doesn't mean it is lost forever. I am literally inches ahead of you in this whole process, so am not speaking from a place of great authority, but once I was able to let go of my perfect M to a wonderful H, I have been able to detach much more than I ever thought possible in a short amount of time. In fact, recognizing that H is really NOT a good person right now and definitely NOT someone I would want to be with right now has been paramount to me surviving the past 10 days. And I feel stronger for it.

I know the memories will not go away completely and I have memorabilia such as letters and photos that confirm my understanding of our marriage (not to mention 4 living beings that were products of our love). I can always go back and relive those memories whenever I want. In the meantime, I need to use this fuel to truly let go. Maybe you do too.

Regarding L's: trust your gut and find someone you want on your team, whom you trust inherently. Keep searching until you find that person. Even if they are not on the list of recommendations that you have.

I have some thoughts on your last paragraph:

Originally Posted by cardinal
I think this is also a big fear of mine, and, yeah, it's typical of the sitches on this site for the D to drag on, isn't it? Maybe that's also why I am feeling pressure to do something.


Can I kindly ask if the pressure is based on emotions and not practicalities? Because if I remember right in your sitch, staying M means that you have health insurance, a certain level of financial security and get to stay in the house. Can you focus on those things that you are gaining at the moment by the D moving slowly?

Originally Posted by cardinal
I want to hold onto my old memories and focus on my new life without H. I know that I can still strive to do this while living with alien H, but it's not the same, is it? Seeing him like this is affecting how I feel about old H.


Doing it while living with H is going to be very, very hard but there are practical benefits at the moment. You can do it. Again, back to my suggestion of not projecting fears into your current moment: you will not lose those good memories.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I know I will be mentally and physically healthier on my own.


Yes, you will!! But the trade offs at the moment (staying in your house long-term, current health insurance, current financial stability) mean you have to put up with living with H for the time being. Think: this really, really svcks now, but once it is over I am going to be better than fine.

Hugs Cardinal, thanks for your wise words on my threads over the months..

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I'm just going to put this here:
you can interview every lawyer in town. Not one of them will then be able to be hired by your H, as it will be a conflict of interest.

I wish I'd done that with the lawyer my exh hired. I'd had a feeling I should do so, but did not. Would have saved a lot of spewing as she was an expert at ramping him up to increase her fee.

ka-ching.


M 20+ T25+
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BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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I did hire ever lawyer in my town. There is only one. smile

XW ended up having to travel to city an hour away for her consultations. Lol.


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Originally Posted by DnJ
I did hire ever lawyer in my town. There is only one. smile

XW ended up having to travel to city an hour away for her consultations. Lol.

too bad for her.
my heart pumps koolaid

Last edited by bttrfly; 08/10/20 04:09 AM.

M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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