We all try taking sense into our now internally unrecognizable spouse. It’s ok. Don’t beat yourself up. And don’t fret over it.
I will tell you something, those conversations aren’t pointless. You learn from them. You needed to have that conversation to ensure you tried everything. It’s just a step along the path. No big deal.
Thank you for saying this, D. This is where the fierce compassion for myself should come in, but all the values I’ve listed as my thread title feel far away right now. I regret exposing myself to more hurt. I wasn’t indifferent enough to avoid internalizing the awful things he was saying. I’ve been reading more about divorcing and/or cheating spouses rewriting history to remind myself it is a normal thing, and not about me. I read that over and over, and yet... since there is some truth to what he is saying—as I’ve worked the last year to recognize my part in SSM and not put all that responsibility on him (as he is attempting to do to me)—it is more difficult for me to stand back and feel confident in what I can take responsibility for and what I can let go. I know, rationally, the blame and projection is not about me, but it’s like I have to keep convincing/reminding myself of that every five minutes, fighting my impulse to doubt.
I didn’t quite complete my compassionate indifference training, apparently.
I am trying not to rewrite our history to match his rewriting, but I am grieving what I thought the M was. I am asking whether he was pretending to be happy at point X or Y—how many of my memories are based on the assumption that H was showing me his true self when he wasn’t?
I admire yours and others’ abilities to see their M without rosy or dark glasses, as you write in your post. Maybe it is just that I am too close to be able to find a middle ground at this time, as I think Gerda and bttrfly are suggesting, and it’s only causing me pain to try to sort out what was love and what was not.
To make it worse, mutual friend is also doing her own rewriting alongside me, looking for flags that she should have noticed in our M but didn’t.
How do I find my strength again in my own beliefs? How do I find the strength and self-confidence to not be swayed by the attacks that will come as we move toward negotiating? Through setting boundaries and not listening to another attack he tries to launch, through indifference. But compassionate indifference comes from knowing my own self-worth and not buying into his narrative of me or the M, and I’m struggling with that. Why? I think his arguing that he was never happy (and the fact that the bits he uses as evidence are sometimes founded in reality) has messed with my ability to separate old H from new H. In other words, I thought I had done that, but now I feel instead like I was mistaken. This new H is who he was all along, this miserable, unsatisfied H; he simply couldn’t admit it to himself or me. So I was caught in a lie if the M without knowing it until now.
Does that make sense? That is the effect of the last, great spewing, and that has had a domino effect. At the same time, I recognize that if he really was that unhappy, why did he marry me after 7 years, and then 9 more years after that come to terms with his extreme unhappiness?
I’m caught in this circle where nothing makes sense—not even that he must have been happy, or he wouldn’t have endured for so long. Not even that makes sense.
I wish there was a reset button to get me back on track.
Yesterday was my birthday. It was fine. I was less torn up than last year, which was a month out from BD. H still made me a cake last year, I suppose because he was feeling a bit of guilt. Even after MIL reached out in February to say she would always love me and we should talk soon, she did not wish me a happy birthday. I haven’t heard from her since that February text.. I of course think H has convinced her of how awful I am too. I remind myself that I control me only. I don’t control what anyone else believes or says. Still, it stings.
Still plenty of birthday cake here—a big New York cheesecake. Everyone is welcome to a slice!
It’s normal to cycle through these emotions and wonder if our MLCer was ever who they were. It’s normal to question our marriage, to ensure we see with clarity. You are questioning H’s inner self, when even he doesn’t know right now.
But how do you know? How does one believe?
Originally Posted by cardinal
I wish there was a reset button to get me back on track.
Ask yourself this:
Was I happy in my marriage?
Overall. Don’t focus on a couple of bad incidences, over the 10 years of marriage, over the 16 years together. Look overall.
I would say your answer would be yes.
Own you part of the SSM, not all - H has a part in that too. And learn from it. No one is perfect and everyday we have the opportunity to gain. Become better not bitter.
And realize you were happy. You lived a happy life. Don’t unwittingly rewrite to suit H’s spew.
I was happily married. XW and I were together 30+ years. She was happy too. Then her buried past came calling.
You are challenging your memory and belief of the past. 16 years doesn’t just happen. I know it feels different right now for you. Believe me, I know. Emotions are fleeting.
Was I happy?
Believe it.
Will I be happy again? YES!
Believe it.
And Happy Birthday cardinal.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
We all try taking sense into our now internally unrecognizable spouse. It’s ok. Don’t beat yourself up. And don’t fret over it.
I will tell you something, those conversations aren’t pointless. You learn from them. You needed to have that conversation to ensure you tried everything. It’s just a step along the path. No big deal.
Thank you for saying this, D. This is where the fierce compassion for myself should come in, but all the values I’ve listed as my thread title feel far away right now.
Do not forget they are the goal, the end game. You're far from the end here, doll - just keep your eye on those values as the prize.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I regret exposing myself to more hurt. I wasn’t indifferent enough to avoid internalizing the awful things he was saying. I’ve been reading more about divorcing and/or cheating spouses rewriting history to remind myself it is a normal thing, and not about me. I read that over and over, and yet... since there is some truth to what he is saying—as I’ve worked the last year to recognize my part in SSM and not put all that responsibility on him (as he is attempting to do to me)—it is more difficult for me to stand back and feel confident in what I can take responsibility for and what I can let go. I know, rationally, the blame and projection is not about me, but it’s like I have to keep convincing/reminding myself of that every five minutes, fighting my impulse to doubt.
Of course there is a grain of truth in every lie, pretty much, right? Don't let the gaslighting become reality. It's not.
Two people are married, two people are responsible for their parts in the marriage, and whatever downward turn it takes ... but keep to your side of the street. Own what's really yours.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I didn’t quite complete my compassionate indifference training, apparently.
No. You haven't. It's a process.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I am trying not to rewrite our history to match his rewriting, but I am grieving what I thought the M was. [/quote[] Yes, this is normal and healthy, IMHO
[quote=cardinal] I am asking whether he was pretending to be happy at point X or Y—how many of my memories are based on the assumption that H was showing me his true self when he wasn’t?
Oh boy, yeah I get it, but please learn from my experience - this is wasted energy. You will never ever know the answer.
Want to know something else? Your H doesn't know the answer any more than you do. Chew on that for a while.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I admire yours and others’ abilities to see their M without rosy or dark glasses, as you write in your post. Maybe it is just that I am too close to be able to find a middle ground at this time, as I think Gerda and bttrfly are suggesting, and it’s only causing me pain to try to sort out what was love and what was not.
We are all several years out of the muck and mire, and not living with the daily onslaught of BS and Spew, unlike you who are in the thick of it.
Originally Posted by cardinal
To make it worse, mutual friend is also doing her own rewriting alongside me, looking for flags that she should have noticed in our M but didn’t.
She needs to stop that.
Originally Posted by cardinal
How do I find my strength again in my own beliefs?
No idea; I'm still struggling with the existential aspects of divorce.
Originally Posted by cardinal
How do I find the strength and self-confidence to not be swayed by the attacks that will come as we move toward negotiating? Through setting boundaries and not listening to another attack he tries to launch, through indifference. But compassionate indifference comes from knowing my own self-worth and not buying into his narrative of me or the M, and I’m struggling with that. Why? I think his arguing that he was never happy (and the fact that the bits he uses as evidence are sometimes founded in reality) has messed with my ability to separate old H from new H. In other words, I thought I had done that, but now I feel instead like I was mistaken. This new H is who he was all along, this miserable, unsatisfied H; he simply couldn’t admit it to himself or me. So I was caught in a lie if the M without knowing it until now.
Grieve old H.
New H is the dude you're dealing with.
Do not forget that.
Act accordingly.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Does that make sense? That is the effect of the last, great spewing, and that has had a domino effect. At the same time, I recognize that if he really was that unhappy, why did he marry me after 7 years, and then 9 more years after that come to terms with his extreme unhappiness?
I’m caught in this circle where nothing makes sense—not even that he must have been happy, or he wouldn’t have endured for so long. Not even that makes sense.
I wish there was a reset button to get me back on track.
Yesterday was my birthday. It was fine. I was less torn up than last year, which was a month out from BD. H still made me a cake last year, I suppose because he was feeling a bit of guilt. Even after MIL reached out in February to say she would always love me and we should talk soon, she did not wish me a happy birthday. I haven’t heard from her since that February text.. I of course think H has convinced her of how awful I am too. I remind myself that I control me only. I don’t control what anyone else believes or says. Still, it stings.
Still plenty of birthday cake here—a big New York cheesecake. Everyone is welcome to a slice!
Happy birthday! Focus on what you have. Let the other (hurtful) stuff be. Acknowledge it, but don't dwell on it.
This all says far more about them than you or your relationship to them.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
I am trying not to rewrite our history to match his rewriting, but I am grieving what I thought the M was. I am asking whether he was pretending to be happy at point X or Y—how many of my memories are based on the assumption that H was showing me his true self when he wasn’t??.... I think his arguing that he was never happy (and the fact that the bits he uses as evidence are sometimes founded in reality) has messed with my ability to separate old H from new H. In other words, I thought I had done that, but now I feel instead like I was mistaken. This new H is who he was all along, this miserable, unsatisfied H; he simply couldn’t admit it to himself or me. So I was caught in a lie if the M without knowing it until now.
I’m caught in this circle where nothing makes sense—not even that he must have been happy, or he wouldn’t have endured for so long. Not even that makes sense.
You’re right, maybe there is no new H or old H. Maybe he’s always been this way but has not been truthful. I wonder sometimes about my H too. This new him must have already existed, but now it’s probably just magnified. Whatever the case is, let it go. Keep the good memories, as for the rest - let it go. Acknowledge, accept, let it go. It is pointless. What is a true self anyway? I believe we are all made of different pieces, possibly even conflicting pieces...we all have struggles within us. But sometimes one side wins, sometimes the other side wins. My conclusion about my H is that he is flawed, and weak. He claims to be a man of principles, but he fails again and again by his own principles. Nothing makes sense. Don’t try to make sense of anything related to your H. It just doesn’t work.
Here’s something from my book of quotes, may be helpful when you’re dealing with H on a daily basis:
“If you feel irritated, they want attention. If you feel angry/hurt, they want revenge. If you feel powerless, they are feeling powerless. If you feel insufficient, they feel insufficient.”
Hi Cardinal! I’ve finally been able to catch up on your thread. I honestly don’t even know what to say ...but wanted to offer my support to let you know that once again I could have written word for word everything you have, right down to what you are struggling with. My hiatus was due to work and life taking over but also truthfully because my mind has been stuck in a swirling vortex. I’ve been facing, questioning and reliving so many things. I too have been stuck on the following (which I will post on my own site for the record):
-reconciling with the truthful elements of what he spews and taking TOO MUCH responsibility for it ending our M -obsessing over where the man I married went -trying to stop speculating as to why his family and a couple friends specifically have fallen away since March; what is he telling them? -why he is so focused on selling the house when FA/ separation has not been presented yet
And to sum it all up, the big one is how much longer can I live with him if I don’t get back to letting go and dropping the rope fully. Everything affects me so much again.
The one big thing I do want to offer is that I was really hesitant and against getting a L in the beginning but he forced my hand by getting one right away. Taking everyone’s advice from here to get one is the best thing I did.
I don’t know how L works there but I wanted to let you know that you only pay for what they do.....so in other words I consulted one, but then didn’t go back until I did all of my own leg work with my finances. The less they do the less you get charged obviously....so because H is moving backwards with this process all my info has just been sitting waiting for him to take the lead....Don’t get me wrong it still [censored] and I’m passed off about the $ part of it daily BUT I think as Dnj and others have said it’s business and the number one business here is protecting yourself.
Doesn’t matter that you didn’t have a job as lucrative as his, I don’t believe it matters that’s the cars are in his name ...esp if you sold yours and took over one....it’s all marital assets and should be spilt 50/50. A L will (should) arm you with info and I can speak from experience it takes one stress off the head knowing a professional is looking out for your best interests $. I’m freshly on this part and though the laws may differ slightly, feel free to ask me anything and if I can offer anything I’d love to.
Also MOST importantly, hope you had an awesome (belated) happy Birthday and I would have loved to enjoy a piece of that cheesecake with you!!!!
Just wanted to let you know that someone is travelling the same path with you. Big ((((hugs)))) you’re doing well! Kindly
P.s thank you to all of the contributors here ...I may not write a lot on other people’s sites but I read a lot.I’ve actually written down some of the wise words offered that I find super helpful. Your advice is invaluable.
I had several good days of feeling better, more meditation, more focus on the teaching I'll be doing in the fall, and those days happened to be the ones where H works out of the house. No surprise there--it's so much easier to relax and enjoy myself knowing he won't be back any time soon. It gives me hope that one day I'll be alone in this house finally and living my life--sure, probably with some grief to work through over the reality of H being gone, but in an environment that is peaceful and safe.
I did also get stuck here, though:
Originally Posted by DnJ
Ask yourself this:
Was I happy in my marriage?
Overall. Don’t focus on a couple of bad incidences, over the 10 years of marriage, over the 16 years together. Look overall.
Just like all the reading I did after BD on MLC, I've been driven to read more about borderline personality disorder, passive aggression, etc. I felt some validation in recognizing that maybe the circular arguments that have occurred over the last (at least) half of our M were at least in part due to H's coping mechanisms, passive aggression, avoidance, distorted self-image, and were not reccuring because I couldn't figure out how to communicate with him, but because nothing I could have done/said would have made sense to him or would have gotten through to him. When any argument ends with him saying I don't understand him and I'm making him the bad guy, how do you get out of that? Let me tell you, defensiveness, justifying, explaining, reassuring--none of that worked. I felt helpless and terrible during these conversations, powerless to break the pattern. And I'm coming to understand that H would have had to have wanted to break the pattern too, to look at what was going on internally with him, and that's another thing I couldn't have forced him to do if he didn't want to.
It's clear now H was controlling in some ways, not sharing financial info with me, for example. Sometimes H's anger made me angry, and then it scared me, and I would imagine, for example, my mom witnessing the way he reacted when he got angry, and I would know she wouldn't approve of the words he was using toward me.
Was I happy?
I let some of his behavior go, because I loved him, and I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I trusted that if he didn't love me, he wouldn't tell me he did. I trusted that if he was so unhappy with the SSM, he would tell me, and he would want to work together to make changes.
I knew he pushed emotions down, but that wasn't and isn't my responsibility.
Was I happy?
That wasn't the entirety of our 17 years together and really only started happening for maybe the last half. I don't want to rewrite all of our history to focus only on these moments.
I remembered H's mom's breakdown a few years ago, her revealing that she'd struggled with depression and anxiety all her life, something that H didn't know. She sat at our kitchen table and told us that we didn't love her and didn't really want her here visiting.
Last week, H and I sat at that same table and he told me I had never loved him, never really wanted a relationship with him.
I remembered H's dad had been in AA for years, and though H only has happy memories of his childhood, there's a lot I don't know and he doesn't remember about what his mom's R with his dad was like before they divorced.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Oh boy, yeah I get it, but please learn from my experience - this is wasted energy. You will never ever know the answer.
Want to know something else? Your H doesn't know the answer any more than you do. Chew on that for a while.
Yes. I read too much, until the overlap between MLC and personality disorders and learned behaviors gave me a headache. I think I'm still trying to know what my side of the street is, still struggling to forgive myself for things I could have done differently, still working to accept that I will never know the answer, because there is no singular answer. This is my coping mechanism, I guess--I just need to research as if I'm getting a degree in psychology, and all will eventually make sense!
Maybe two things I can be sure of: there were/are childhood issues at play for H in addition to whatever else, whatever good and imperfect aspects there were to our M, and I can't work through any of these issues for him. I never could. I want him to come out of this a healthier person eventually, and that is entirely up to him.
The other thing: Was I happy? Maybe I'm too far in this mess to trust my answer right now. Did I love him? I can answer that wholeheartedly: Yes.
Originally Posted by wooba
Keep the good memories, as for the rest - let it go.
Had a consult with a different lawyer today—not the one I met with months ago. It left me feeling worse, honestly. The main thing I am worried about is staying in the rental house, as I am in a much more financially precarious situation than H and our rent hasn’t risen in years so is much lower than the current market, not to mention leaving would mean leaving our chickens and the neighborhood cats I care for. L said the court won’t make a decision or ask either party to leave the house, so it will be up to us to come to an agreement. He’s suggested something I might be able to bargain with, but H is so set on staying here, I don’t know if that would even help. L seemed to think even though an old car was given to both of us by H’s mom it could be considered inheritance and therefore his separate property, so that could be an issue.
I want someone to help me stay in this house so I can stay in this state as I transition to new career, as I have connections here to help me get started in that. I just need more time to keep applying, for more jobs to open up. If a L can’t help me with that big issue...? 5k retainer just to start. I could petition court for H to pay L fees and perhaps get some reimbursed later, but, again, if the law can’t help me stay in my home, I’m even more discouraged at the prospect of giving so much money we don’t have to a L, escalating things with H and maybe making him even less willing to negotiate.
I feel like you all understand why mediation sounds good but might be a lost cause if H has refused it many times. You understand why I can’t just work things out with H. You understand what I’m up against, and I don’t know if an hour consult with a L made it clear how irrational my H is being, though the L did say it sounds like he has a fantasy idea of D in which he doesn’t have to give me anything.
The L I really wanted can still do mediation with us but can’t represent either one of us as L, because we both consulted with her to get basic info early on. I have a second consult with a L I consulted with a few months ago next week, so I guess I’ll see if I get a different feeling from meeting with her.
Basically, I feel there is no end in sight. H won’t leave, and I will be living here with him indefinitely, while nothing moves forward with D (assuming he actually files this time).
Kindly, I wanted my meeting to make me feel empowered and businesslike, but instead I feel vulnerable and like I won’t be able to convey to anyone accurately how H is trying to bully me.
Well bear in mind H cannot evict you so long as you keep your side of the street clean. So if you stay put he has no choice other than to stay living there with you or to move out himself. If he has an OW she will probably get tired of him living with his wife eventually.
HOWEVER it's possible if you don't have any documented income your landlord might not consider you a qualified tenant on your own, so I would really try to hustle to get an income going (or if your landlord is someone you are really tight with personally, you might let them in on what's happening - not now, but near the end - if you think they would be sympathetic to your plight. )
The car most likely depends on whose name is on the title - if it's only in his name, it's not probably something you can claim. If both your names are on it then it wouldn't be protected as an inheritance. (Note - I'm not a lawyer so check this with any lawyer you talk to).
Mediation only works if both parties can be reasonable - if he's not it may be wasted money. The ay he is bullying you, I doubt mediation would work with him.
