Thread name inspired by bttrfly--these are the core values I want to look to as I navigate this next part of the road. Right now I need to direct a lot of fierce compassion toward myself for engaging too much with H yesterday.
I am reading all of your advice--thank you so much, DnJ, kml, wooba, may, job. I have so many questions right now and am dying to get guidance from a L. In the meantime, being able to post questions here is helping me not go crazy. I didn't sleep well last night as it hit me again--I don't feel safe in my home. I still don't think there is a real threat of violence (though H is so erratic, I can't get myself to feel 100% safe in that regard either), but I am starting to recognize many of H's tactics as emotional abuse, even if he doesn't intend them that way. I am feeling some anger, but I think it's meant to protect me, to alert me that H is shaming me (for SSM to my face and telling me about how he tells all his friends about it, and they can't believe he was married to me, etc), gaslighting me, threatening me, telling me I am crazy and everyone thinks I am crazy... the list goes on. I can recognize now that this comes, at least partly, from his desire to protect himself from feeling shame or responsibility. He rages and then of course this morning he's acting calm again and engaging with me about unrelated things in a friendly manner, like nothing happened
D, you are right that I am definitely getting ramped up about L $ expectations. My IC mentioned something about tens of thousands of dollars, but I'm sure that would be if there was a court battle, which I just can't see happening in our situation, since there are no big assets. I am telling myself that I will know more once I meet with a L. Because for the sake of my mental and emotional health, I don't think I can do this without a L. For all of the reasons you describe in your own situation, D: a L knows what they're doing, a L can advise me on just how much H is blowing smoke, a L can reassure me that no matter what he threatens, X, Y, or Z is what the courts would decide.
I'm still confused about what would happen if I request through my response papers that H pay my legal fees. Can the court actually make him? And would he just pay it out of our savings anyway? I don't know if anyone here can answer this. And I imagine this of course would make him fly off the handle--how dare I expect him to pay for this--and could mean he's even less willing to negotiate the settlement. But if he is going to be angry no matter what, it doesn't make sense to let this fear of H not negotiating drive my decisions, does it? The more I am afraid of his anger, the more power I give him.
Originally Posted by DnJ
You cannot force a MLCer to do anything. Apply force, and they will come out swinging.
And you cannot reason with them. These are desperate people and desperate people do desperate things. You trying to reason with H will be seen as a threat and he will push back.
For right now, let your L gather the information. You’re going to need to at some point. You cannot trust H anyhow, he will try to hide stuff.
This is very clear to me. If I am acting rationally and not emotionally, and listening to the advice of everyone here, my parents, my friends, and my IC, I go to a L, and I let the L gather information. That is literally what everyone is telling me. I fear H's reaction. I fear the cost. But that can't stop me from acting. And H does come out swinging when I suggest or try to reason with him. I have suggested mediation so many times now, and clearly that is not working. Maybe at some point he will suggest it. Last week my IC suggested saying, H, I will either need a L or mediation. Those are my terms. You choose. But it doesn't seem like that will work either with someone like H, does it?
Originally Posted by DnJ
It’s tough not to blow up in face of all that smugness. Remember play the long game, stay indifferent.
Of course I was a mess and just kept drinking my STFU smoothie. I listened to my L and followed his advice. I suspect he knew much better than I what he was doing. Ha, that’s a dumb statement - of course he knows better. He’s a lawyer!
Originally Posted by DnJ
Leverage. To negotiate you need to know what the other wants. MLCers drop lots of clues, listen carefully.
I tried to stay indifferent in the face of the various "deals" he was throwing out, eg if I give him the house, I can have the cats. I didn't respond to that other than to say I am on the lease and have as much entitlement to the house as he does. He knows I want to stay here because I stated my intention after he said he was moving out. That or who knows what (I mean, just asking him for financial docs was enough to set him off) apparently caused him to swing wildly back to I don't deserve the house and should be the one to MO.
I did pick up on the fact that the only time H seemed to admit wrong and appear contrite was when he admitted to taking all of the savings money without telling me. I'm hoping this could give me leverage, as I could consider overlooking that entirely.
I know he is offended that I would try to take any portion of the pension he worked so hard for, while I was on a ten-year vacation as he sees it now. But I am very hesitant to give up on that, as my future financial security is very important, as important as keeping myself afloat in the present while I am applying for jobs.
Oh, and job or others: about the giftcards--I've thought of that, but now am reluctant to spend any money from our joint checking account, as I don't know what I'm entitled to and what I'm not, and H will definitely notice if I start using my debit card for purchases.
Please send like ten million STFU smoothies my way. I think I'll need a constant supply. And Gerda, yell louder in my ear just to say, "I'm sorry you feel that way."
Well, in the days since the terrible conversation, I have mainly been filled with more and more regret for engaging. I feel like I did so well for the last year, never pushing back against his narrative, not taking the bait, and I undid all that work with that convo. I guaranteed H will feel even more justified by pointlessly trying to share my feelings with him, by trying to y perspective of the SSM even as he was attacking me for it. At one point he again called me ungrateful for all he did for me during our M and said he would continue to sacrifice himself for his new partner, for whoever he was with, would do everything for them, because that is love. I see this as one of the big contributors to BD--he did this for me at the expense of his own needs until he seethed with more and more resentment. In our ill-fated convo I replied that I believed that we shouldn't rely on others for our own happiness, that we should make ourselves happy. See how I was trying to have a rational conversation with totally irrational H after he threatened me? I can't believe I said this and more to him. I just shake my head now.
I really, really wanted to look back on this time and have no regrets, and now I have this one, which feels big to me. And it's leading right into the D process. Has anyone else had a big slip-up like this? I don't regret it because I think walking away without comment would have changed H's mind or anything like that, but I do think it cemented his ugly, ugly view of me and our M. I'm trying not to beat myself up over it, but I am very disappointed in myself because I can no longer say I walked away without trying to influence H or challenge his views.
I'm waiting to hear back from a L I really want and have a consult with another next week. It felt so strange to call and say H was threatening me--I feel like I'm making it up or exaggerating for effect, even when I know I'm not--like I still want to make excuses for his unacceptable behavior as everyone around me is telling me this is emotional abuse. I slip and start doubting my own experience or our M and of old H vs. new H. If I wouldn't have stuck around for his blamefest, I would not have been spiraling in self-doubt now either.
When I met with IC on Sunday, she said, "Go get a L. Don't wait. Call today. He is not rational and he is not going to negotiate with you." So of course you all are on the same page. She reassured me that there is nothing I could have done or could do to change this, that H is projecting so much of his entire childhood and adulthood with his mom onto me, and the anger isn't just because of our M. That he hates himself for never being able to speak up, and he's painting himself as helpless in our M just as he has felt helpless in not being able to say no to taking care of his mom and her emotions. He's turning shame into blame. Childhood issues brought into adulthood... well, that is what they say about MLC. She also said, "No matter what you do, he's going to hate you. That's just where he is right now. It's going to be hard, but you have to accept it." This is obvious to me, but still hard to accept.
I've read a lot about spewing here and know it's totally the norm, but H's spewing feels like it's on a different level. It feels like the deepest hatred and disrespect. Is this strange? It scares me because I never imagined him capable of such extreme feelings toward me (or anyone, really) in all the time I've known him, and it's unsettling to think he could turn out this way, that I married someone who was capable of this. It like he's filled with so much resentment, he's made it so he'll never be able to recover a good memory from our time together. Reconciliation or forgiveness on his part seems not just unlikely but impossible, and he was so venomous that I can't imagine feeling safe with him again anyway. I'm okay with feeling that way at the moment. I don't want that kind of venom in my life. I opened myself up to it for too long because I guess some part of me thought I could still communicate with him, and I've lost my center momentarily. I need to somehow flush that venom out of my system--awful things he said during the convo echo like they did after BD.
I've read a lot about spewing here and know it's totally the norm, but H's spewing feels like it's on a different level. It feels like the deepest hatred and disrespect. Is this strange? It scares me because I never imagined him capable of such extreme feelings toward me (or anyone, really) in all the time I've known him, and it's unsettling to think he could turn out this way, that I married someone who was capable of this. It like he's filled with so much resentment, he's made it so he'll never be able to recover a good memory from our time together. Reconciliation or forgiveness on his part seems not just unlikely but impossible, and he was so venomous that I can't imagine feeling safe with him again anyway. I'm okay with feeling that way at the moment. I don't want that kind of venom in my life. I opened myself up to it for too long because I guess some part of me thought I could still communicate with him, and I've lost my center momentarily. I need to somehow flush that venom out of my system--awful things he said during the convo echo like they did after BD.
In my exh's subconscious I represent every failure of his mother and most especially his father, for whom he has nothing but hatred and contempt. When he looked at me, he never saw me ... just the narrative he'd created in his own addled brain.
Would he have brief moments of clarity? YES.
BUT -- and this is crucial for you to understand - Brief moments of clarity do not change the outcome.
I've come to understand that my exh had to do all these terrible things, and convince himself I was someone I was not so he could leave.
As we all know now, he married the woman I suspect was his affair partner. He's had a direct impact on destroying my son's psyche, and I will be very brutally honest here, Cardinal, he d@mned near destroyed me. I am 5 years and almost 4 months post BD. I am only know realizing the true extent of the gaslighting, verbal, and financial abuse I suffered at his hands from the start of his MLC through BD and divorce. It is only by being triggered in the ways I am being triggered these days, and most especially having 5 years of not living with my exh under my belt, that I can recognize any of it.
I was an emotionally and financially abused wife. It's a heavy admission to make. I allowed it to happen because I thought it was the only way to save my marriage, because I was in so deep I didn't really understand what was happening at the time, and had no idea how to stop any of it.
Do not make the same mistakes. Get a lawyer ASAP. Ask if you should drain the joint account, put it in your name only for safe keeping. Seriously. Protect yourself at all costs. This marriage is dead. Whatever may come in a future relationship with your husband has yet to be decided and will have to be brand new. Read that again. I don't know if that will help you. I'm sure it's not what you want to hear, but it's the truth, as I see it. You are solely responsible for your own financial wellbeing as of when he BD'd.
Take care of yourself financially and legally and then you can get the poison out of your etheric body ... but you need the protection to be in place first, imho.
You're not alone; we are here for you.
Last edited by job; 07/28/2006:53 PM. Reason: edited language
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
In my exh's subconscious I represent every failure of his mother and most especially his father, for whom he has nothing but hatred and contempt. When he looked at me, he never saw me ... just the narrative he'd created in his own addled brain.
Would he have brief moments of clarity? YES.
BUT -- and this is crucial for you to understand - Brief moments of clarity do not change the outcome.
I've come to understand that my exh had to do all these terrible things, and convince himself I was someone I was not so he could leave.
As we all know now, he married the woman I suspect was his affair partner. He's had a direct impact on destroying my son's psyche, and I will be very brutally honest here, Cardinal, he d@mned near destroyed me. I am 5 years and almost 4 months post BD. I am only know realizing the true extent of the gaslighting, verbal, and financial abuse I suffered at his hands from the start of his MLC through BD and divorce. It is only by being triggered in the ways I am being triggered these days, and most especially having 5 years of not living with my exh under my belt, that I can recognize any of it.
I was an emotionally and financially abused wife. It's a heavy admission to make. I allowed it to happen because I thought it was the only way to save my marriage, because I was in so deep I didn't really understand what was happening at the time, and had no idea how to stop any of it.
Do not make the same mistakes. Get a lawyer ASAP. Ask if you should drain the joint account, put it in your name only for safe keeping. Seriously. Protect yourself at all costs. This marriage is dead. Whatever may come in a future relationship with your husband has yet to be decided and will have to be brand new. Read that again. I don't know if that will help you. I'm sure it's not what you want to hear, but it's the truth, as I see it. You are solely responsible for your own financial wellbeing as of when he BD'd.
I wasn't sure if I was reading a post I wrote and forgot I wrote. In other words, exactly the same, line for line, word for word, as bttrfly.
In fact I didn't even know that exact-same with bttrfly until this month and I have been posting since 2014.
Learn from us.
I'd only change that last line to You are solely responsible for your own financial well being from day one. My H was terrible with money from our first date. He was never a good provider. I just didn't think it mattered, so I set myself up for all the years of financial irresponsibility and, later, the financial abuse. Now I am past the two-year mark of his divorce and he is still trying to destroy me, no end in sight. Because I didn't listen to people on these boards.
Cry as much as you want. But set aside two hours a day to be razor sharp, crystal clear. Go through all the money. Take half of it or more. If he asks, tell him to talk to your lawyer. If it bugs you to say that w/out explanation, tell him that your finances are separate from your feelings about the marriage, and you have to protect your half. Then smile cheerfully and leave the room. Remember that ad, "Never let 'em see you sweat"? Do that.
Last edited by job; 07/28/2006:53 PM. Reason: edited language
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
When you go to the grocery store or any store, purchase a gift card. I was advised many years ago to take half out of the savings/checking accounts and move the funds to another account or put the funds into gift cards. The sooner you can speak to a lawyer and find out what you are entitled to, the better...but for now, take some of the money out of the account...after all, you are still married and should be able to withdraw some of it.
As Gerda pointed out, just smile and whatever you do, do not let him sweat. You have absolutely nothing to fear but fear itself.
You now must protect yourself at all costs because he's not going to give a fig as to how you will survive and manage once he's out the door. This is a business deal whereby a partner has walked away from his responsibility to you and to the marriage.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Learn from us. Cry as much as you want. But set aside two hours a day to be razor sharp, crystal clear. Go through all the money. Take half of it or more. If he asks, tell him to talk to your lawyer. If it bugs you to say that w/out explanation, tell him that your finances are separate from your feelings about the marriage, and you have to protect your half. Then smile cheerfully and leave the room. Remember that ad, "Never let 'em see you sweat"? Do that.
I would change this to say give yourself two hours only to cry, because you need the rest of the time and energy to protect yourself.
Originally Posted by job
When you go to the grocery store or any store, purchase a gift card. I was advised many years ago to take half out of the savings/checking accounts and move the funds to another account or put the funds into gift cards. The sooner you can speak to a lawyer and find out what you are entitled to, the better...but for now, take some of the money out of the account...after all, you are still married and should be able to withdraw some of it.
As Gerda pointed out, just smile and whatever you do, do not let him sweat. You have absolutely nothing to fear but fear itself.
You now must protect yourself at all costs because he's not going to give a fig as to how you will survive and manage once he's out the door. This is a business deal whereby a partner has walked away from his responsibility to you and to the marriage.
I would get a screen grab of the balance on the specific date/time, then move half to place where he cannot get it - gift card, safe deposit box, whatever ...
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Hi, Gerda, job, and bttrfly. Thanks so much for being here with me. I'm not fighting against the outcome, and I am no longer crying--I was a mess, privately, for a couple of days after the last big spewing, and since then I've returned to survival mode, am still applying for jobs and making notes to ask a L. I made a wonderful cake for my birthday tomorrow even though I don't have much of an appetite! I do feel that I'm not seeing clearly, though. Gerda, like you wrote earlier, I think it will be impossible while H is still here. I know I've gotten pulled into his story, and I keep seeing things from his perspective and feeling sorry for him and taking on too much guilt. I'm relying on friends (here and IRL) and IC to give me reality checks often. It's dizzying, questioning the last big chunk of my life, trying to hold onto my own experience of M while acknowledging his, trying to identify what H's resentment is coloring and what it isn't, where I could have done better vs. what had/has nothing to do with me. I just found myself thinking poor H--I can see, from his perspective, he was in a terrible M for 10 years and he finally wants to leave, but now he has to pay $ for it, and he might have to move, and, well, there are all of these consequences that feel like punishments to him. He feels like he's being punished by me just for realizing he was deeply unhappy. I get that. And then I have to ask myself: Am I applying these consequences as punishments? Do I want to punish H? I don't think so. I just want to survive. It feels more like he is angry and needs to punish someone, so he turns to me.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
When he looked at me, he never saw me ... just the narrative he'd created in his own addled brain.
That is it exactly. He doesn't see me anymore and I don't think he has for most of the last year. It's a strange feeling to feel that gaze on you, to feel like you are becoming the narrative. I don't see H anymore when I look at him, either, though. He's a doppelganger filled with hurt and anger.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
It is only by being triggered in the ways I am being triggered these days, and most especially having 5 years of not living with my exh under my belt, that I can recognize any of it.
I am sorry for the pain you've gone through, bttrfly. This reminds me of what Gerda said too--I think it can be nearly impossible to see things for what they are during this post-BD time. The only thing his spewing has made me see clearly is that I need a L. Like DnJ wrote earlier too, I need someone who can see our financial situation clearly and guide me from a place of reason and not residual emotion.
Originally Posted by Gerda
If it bugs you to say that w/out explanation, tell him that your finances are separate from your feelings about the marriage, and you have to protect your half. Then smile cheerfully and leave the room. Remember that ad, "Never let 'em see you sweat"? Do that.
Originally Posted by job
As Gerda pointed out, just smile and whatever you do, do not let him sweat. You have absolutely nothing to fear but fear itself.
Gerda and job, I really appreciate all of your concrete examples and reminders. I have learned so much from everyone here--yet I still walked into pointless convo with H! I totally knew better. I want no more repeats of that.
There's not a ton of money in our joint checking at the moment because of our tax bill and H paying his credit card. I did pay for my IC from it, even though I was, yep, a bit afraid H would spew. I know I shouldn't let fear stop me. I'll feel more comfortable and brave taking more steps with finances as soon as a L advises me. This is where I really need a L to take control, since I don't have access to the savings. Though I am still not at peace with the idea of being even more villainous in H's eyes, I know a L will actually help me feel way more empowered and protected in the long run.
So grateful to have all of you strong women here with me!
Editing last post to say, I think I was wrong to say H hasn't seen me as anything but his narrative for the past year. I think there have been moments when he saw me, and that's what kept me thinking I could open up H and find the old H to talk to, if only briefly, if only I could find the right combination. I was wrong--he's gone until/if H chooses to rebuild himself, and anyway, those moments, as you say, bttrfly, don't change the outcome. Only H could change that, not me.
And I wanted to share that I came across the UC San Diego Center for Mindfulness website today, and they have some free live mindfulness and compassion sessions via Zoom this week--I did one tonight on finding a place of peace and stillness. They also have many recorded resources that look great.
You are getting awesome advice from some very wise gals.
Originally Posted by cardinal
...yet I still walked into pointless convo with H!
We’ve all done that.
We all try taking sense into our now internally unrecognizable spouse. It’s ok. Don’t beat yourself up. And don’t fret over it.
I will tell you something, those conversations aren’t pointless. You learn from them. You needed to have that conversation to ensure you tried everything. It’s just a step along the path. No big deal.
Originally Posted by cardinal
It feels like the deepest hatred and disrespect. Is this strange?
Not strange at all.
Our once loving spouse flips 180 degrees and becomes the opposite. And they get angrier and angrier at us. The venom they spew at us is bewildering.
The MLCer needs to disrespect us. Needs to see us as small, little, unworthy - it allows them to feed their fiction. Pay it no attention and utilize boundaries. You don’t deserve to be disrespected. You don’t allow it.
The poison and venom does get in - I know. It takes some time to transmute the poison. It will happen, stay better not bitter.
Compassionate indifference.
Your indifference towards H makes his attacks meaningless. He cannot emotional hurt you. Boundary his disrespectful behaviour and remain indifferent to his spewing. Keep the business side business and move you forward with compassion.
You got this.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
