The thing is, May, that the reasons your H doesn’t want to be in a relationship with you have nothing to do with you. It’s about his unwillingness to compromise or reciprocate or meet expectations or have responsibilities or deal with conflict or share his needs WITHOUT keeping score or silently resenting and blaming his partner. Your H’s problem is his sense of entitlement and his inability to empathise. Your H won’t have a successful relationship with you, or OW, or anyone else for that matter, until and unless he addresses this problem within himself. Let go of the fear that he will be different or better for her, and that might help with your fear of ‘losing’ to the OW if he does ever leave you.
Sometimes I think my H is so similar to your H, but he has decided to hold everything in and not talk—if he did, I imagine it would be much of the same stuff your H resorts to. It’s exasperating from here, but you are in the middle of the storm and you are getting stronger. Sending more strength, may, in case you need it. (((may)))
The thing is, May, that the reasons your H doesn’t want to be in a relationship with you have nothing to do with you. It’s about his unwillingness to compromise or reciprocate or meet expectations or have responsibilities or deal with conflict or share his needs WITHOUT keeping score or silently resenting and blaming his partner. Your H’s problem is his sense of entitlement and his inability to empathise. Your H won’t have a successful relationship with you, or OW, or anyone else for that matter, until and unless he addresses this problem within himself. Let go of the fear that he will be different or better for her, and that might help with your fear of ‘losing’ to the OW if he does ever leave you.
THIS. THIS. THIS. I felt this viscerally. This describes my H so very well, and probably yours too May. And the piece about fear of him being better or different for “her” stings, so I know it rings true. This is so so so hard. May I think you know what you should do in regards to this trip, and I can feel how scary it feels to hold that line. If there’s anything I’ve learned through this is that when things like that feel scary in these situations, that probably means it’s the right thing to do. That’s where the space is created for change and momentum and growth. It’s how you get unstuck. I really think you are doing amazingly.
He doesn't get to lie and cheat and hold the door open for his mistress AND get the sorts of things that happen in committed marriages. He wants a committed marriage and everything that goes with it, then he actually commits to the marriage.
Otherwise, you proceed as a separated couple who have to cohabit. Which means separate vacations with the children.
Alison, this is PERFECT. it is exactly what I need to hold the line. In fact, this is part of what I've said from the very beginning to him (when I was arguing for the M)-- these are the kind of things we both love to do and the exact kind of things you can never do if you D. You don't get to go on month long trips by yourself with the kids. At least not with me as your ex. I've never been okay with that and things aren't going to magically change when we D. His argument, all along, has been why not? We can do whatever we want! We can be that couple that still vacations together. But that isn't happening from my end, and I don't have any guilt around that. The vacation is just a really clear example of continued cake-eating, and one that I'm not willing to participate in.
Originally Posted by scout12
To the controlling man, boundaries feel like oppression.
I see this in him (and tbh, I also see it in myself, looking backwards). We've both been so terrible at boundaries that I think untangling this, what is a controlling behavior, what does it mean to respect someone else's boundaries, how to disengage when we've been together all these years and so used to planning everything around each other and the children *without* any strong boundaries between us-- I get that it feels controlling that I'm saying no to him and something he really wants that he can't have without my participation. But I also feel strong in my reasons for not wanting to participate under the current circumstances. Him being angry about it doesn't change the facts of what is happening, what I'm comfortable with FOR MY OWN PROTECTION and what I'm not. I'm not saying no to this trip to be a b*tch or punish him. I'm saying it because I am not interested in getting hurt further/again.
The control thing-- is a bit of a sore spot, and I'm coming to recognize that even though I thought I wasn't being controlling any more I was still trying to influence him with little things over the last few weeks. So there is some truth there, as much as I want to deny it. So it is something I'm thinking about a lot, control vs. boundaries, and working this out with the IC has been especially helpful. I see it is frustrating for him. (Alison, I looooove your example about your husband's rages... and yet I can also totally understand why he feels cancelled when ranting to you is no longer available. Obviously he needs to find healthier ways to communicate and the only way this can happen is when his unhealthy way no longer works-- because you aren't participating-- so I think that is a good thing. But I also understand how he feels and how hard it must be for him to take that anger and now have to deal with it himself... or not... that isn't easy for anyone.)
Scout, you are totally right, I think we HAVE talked out the SSM. I just no longer want to talk about it as the conditions set for his affair. It happened. I bear much of the responsibility for that. It doesn't mean I'm responsible for his cheating. He did that on his own. And until he can separate the two-- yes, he felt betrayed/unloved because of the SSM-- and also yes, he did still choose to cheat, it wasn't an accident, or my fault for the SSM, or anyone's fault but his own-- until he can own his choices and actions, I don't see a point in continuing to talk about the SSM. My IC (who also happens to be his IC-- which I know you guys might not think is a great idea but I was desperate, tried 10 different ICs including others in her practice, none of which had the magic combination of taking my insurance and taking new patients, and truth is I think she is great) is really focused on me holding this boundary and that he really needs to take responsibility for his own behavior and stop blaming it all on me.
Originally Posted by scout12
Your H’s problem is his sense of entitlement and his inability to empathise.
YES. YES. YES. You are exactly right. And these are issues he has had all along, every since I've known him.
Scout, Hope, I'm not sure how much of my reluctance is fear that he'll be "better" with the OW. I think this is part of my non-detachment showing, or my possessiveness talking, but I don't actually care if their R is total $hit on the inside or not. I just don't want it to BE. Is that weird?
Kind, Cardinal, Hope, thank you. I *do* need the supportive words right now. Cardinal, hoping maybe my H's verbal diarrhea can help explain your H a bit... and Hope, that is really helpful to think that this scariness can help get me unstuck. I need that.
I have my next IC appointment tomorrow and they always help me feel so much better and stronger around my boundaries and that I'm not being controlling by enforcing my boundaries. I think I'll need this as we move forward.
Thanks you guys... I really appreciate all of this support. I need it.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Scout, Hope, I'm not sure how much of my reluctance is fear that he'll be "better" with the OW. I think this is part of my non-detachment showing, or my possessiveness talking, but I don't actually care if their R is total $hit on the inside or not. I just don't want it to BE. Is that weird?
NO. The fact that you don’t want your husband to be in any kind of relationship of any kind or of any quality with another woman is SO NOT WEIRD. Not to me anyway. I feel the exact same way, even now. I am trying SO HARD not to feel that way, but I do.
And these are issues he has had all along, every since I've known him.
You didn't break him, and you can't fix him. If his family think you are controlling, it's probably because they - in small or large ways - taught him that hearing 'no' means the person saying no is in the wrong. He sounds like a spoilt baby in some of these interactions, who cannot believe that another human being gets preferences and gets to say no and gets to determine how she thinks and feels about something, even if he doesn't agree with it or like it. And I suspect he got that from his family of origin. Was he the golden boy?
My H is suffering - he really really is lost without his punch bag. And his choices are to change, to find another punch bag, or to carry on suffering. I hope he finds a way through this and I am sorry for the suffering he is going through, but I am not caring for him by damaging myself any more. It might mean we're just not compatible: maybe my H is only capable of feeling loved if he gets to rage and sulk and have that tended to. Perhaps your H is only capable of a marriage where he is hero-worshipped and gets to do whatever he likes and never has to experience the discomfort of responsibility and self knowledge. I think a lot of this is to do with maturity. I have had to grow up a LOT in this situation. So have you, May. Pain is what moved us towards self-growth. Our H's are experiencing that now too, and it isn't a loving act to rob them of the discomfort that causes positive change. Let your H sit with your 'no' for a while and deal with it in whatever way he sees fit. Don't be afraid.
Yes, he is the golden boy. The oldest, the achieve, absolutely the golden boy in every sense. (And I know I'm the golden girl too, so that probably plays into my inability to believe what is happening right now.)
I know that both his parents and his brother are telling him to ditch the OW and recommit to the M. His mom and dad are both having a really hard time with the fact that he has done this.
He's had really difficult things happen in his life and he's been really amazing in how he has handled it. it is one of the things I fell in love with about him, and has strengthened me throughout our R. He's been able to turn terrible injury into something positive. I guess the difference is a human being (me) saying no to him vs. fate/god/life/whatever.... but he can totally handle life saying no to him. Just not me.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
You know, that sounds familiar to me. In that I am a very strong person, and never played the wailing doormat with anyone except for my H. The outside world would have said I was resourceful, resilient, not prone to self pity or depression or anxiety, could get a grip on things and take action, and had dealt amazingly well with some really, objectively traumatic things in my childhood and early adult life. I think I only really trusted H to show that vulnerable side to - which is no bad thing - but it went beyond that, and I actually expected the love of a partner and a marriage to heal the parts of me that needed healing. I know I was very depressed after my youngest was born, and I did nearly nothing to help myself, but expected H to comfort me out of it. And he tried - but of course severe PND did not work like that and it was still my responsibility to seek medical care. The same thing happened in the aftermath of his EA - before I came to these boards. The injury I suffered there was not my fault, but it was my responsibility to heal - and I didn't take that responsibility, I dumped it on H and a lot of damage was done. I see your H doing some of the same things - dumping the damage he has experienced from the SSM onto you (and I can empathise with that - I have been on the receiving end of similar and the damage is real) and the grief and upset he feels over his actions with the OW, and the difficulty he is having in making a decision, and his fear for the future - all dumped on you to make better. The only thing that stopped me dumping my %^&* on my H and expecting him to fix it was him being totally unavailable for it. He just wasn't in the house, and still I chased him and got my fingers burned every time. It was wrong of him to treat me the way he did and when he does it now it is still wrong, but my feelings were always my own responsibility and I didn't get chance to learn that until he totally dumped them back on me and vanished from our marriage.
Thank you for sharing that... I'm going to guess that there are some parallels, for sure, with my H. He presents a very capable, strong, and put together facade to the world. (So do I, I guess.) He comes off as arrogant. I think this hides some deep insecurities. He really, really cares what other people think of him... probably not in an extreme way, but just a lot more than I care about what other people think of me.
I do think he's dumped a lot of those feelings you describe (damage from the SSM, feelings about the affair, inability to make a decision, fear of the future) onto me to process. I also think I've dumped things onto him throughout our M. I know I've treated him terribly in the past. Said really awful things in anger. For years, we would fight and I would say things like "I can't be married to someone like you" because I felt like I was being treated badly. It would hurt him deeply that I would ever say that in anger, and he used to call me out on it. I'd apologize or get defensive but didn't really think about it in any real way that would motivate me to change the next time I got mad. I guess in some ways I can identify a little with your H, as I don't get angry very often but the only person in the world who can push my buttons is my H (my mom to a lesser extent) and in the past when I did get pushed to the breaking point, I have really, really unloaded terrible things on him in anger. And I also suspect that the SSM was partially my drip-feeding some of the resentment and anger I felt back to him.
I don't do this anymore. I guess that is one part of me growing. I've let so much go. When I had that total cathartic experience with H on our trip in Feb. 2019, I felt washed clean. I let it all go, the resentment, the anger, the reasons for the SSM. I saw him as a person again. H still is holding onto all that baggage, though, and I know he needs to process it himself if there is any hope for our M. I can't do it for him, and you're right, it wouldn't be the kind or right thing to do.
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Perhaps your H is only capable of a marriage where he is hero-worshipped and gets to do whatever he likes and never has to experience the discomfort of responsibility and self knowledge. I think a lot of this is to do with maturity. I have had to grow up a LOT in this situation. So have you, May. Pain is what moved us towards self-growth. Our H's are experiencing that now too, and it isn't a loving act to rob them of the discomfort that causes positive change. Let your H sit with your 'no' for a while and deal with it in whatever way he sees fit. Don't be afraid.
It is interesting-- I actually think in our M he sees it the other way-- that he worshipped me-- and now he's experiencing a relationship with AP where he's the hero. Which has got to be very seductive. Either way he has still offloaded responsibility for his own feelings and happiness to me and/or AP. I think this is why he thinks he can't be happy without AP in his life, because of how she makes him feel. (He's said this a number of times-- it isn't her as a person, but the way she is towards him makes him feel loved and wanted and needed, and if that was gone-- she no longer felt that way about him-- the drug would be gone and he could move on.) Mind reading again, but I partially wonder if this trip is/was his way of pushing her to cut him off and move on since he can't seem to do that himself.
Mostly quiet yesterday. In the afternoon I took my kids to the beach to meet with my friend, her H, and their kids. Everyone had a ball and just being outdoors, by the ocean, talking with good good friends felt like a balm. H grilled prime ribeye for dinner and I topped mine with truffle butter and had a Manhattan. Watched a comedy special and folded two giant loads of kid laundry which is my very very least favorite chore but they've been sitting, clean and wrinkled, in laundry baskets in my way for days-- so getting that done felt good. (OMG. Those of you who gladly fold other people's laundry are saints. I'm going to start making my kids do their own.)
H gave me a little flare of anger as we were getting ready for bed-- said the only way we stay M is to go on this trip. I said, OK. You know how to make it happen. He said how can he block her when he's told her he'll be there for her if she's suicidal-- how horrible would I feel if she tried to call and he had blocked her and then she did something? I said, I would think you'd tell her you can't be that person for her after all and would be blocking her. If you want to be my H you can't be that person for her. She has other people that can help her. He said, you don't know anything about her life. I said nothing.
He also sparked more anger around control-- I'm just telling him what to do, he can't do this like this because it makes him feel that his whole life will be just me telling him what to do. I'm a bad mom (yes, he said this) and too selfish to do this trip for the children. I didn't say anything to that. I'm trying to imagine myself as a rock, just letting this garbage wash over and around me but not moving me.
IC appointment this afternoon. Will try to figure out two more things (thanks KC) to do for me... maybe yoga and some time relaxing outside with a novel.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
