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may22 #2900025 07/15/20 09:07 PM
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Always here and following along just so you know. FYI I've realized the reason we don't know each other IRL is because I'd eff his car up. Bad. And I'd probably catfish AP. I heart you. That is all. xoxoxxoxo

may22 #2900036 07/16/20 02:09 AM
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May, just wanted to post something funny. I've been using a new streaming service to watch trashy reality TV like the Real Housewives (no shame, please). The software obviously has a few bugs and keeps throwing up error messages. I keep getting the following notification: Entitlement Validation Error. It makes me think of your H every time. LOL.

You are NOT a bad mum. I know you know that, though.


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may22 #2900050 07/16/20 06:39 AM
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That's hilarious Scout. I made so many mistakes and validating emotional abuse and entitlement and bad behaviour was a massive one. Wish you'd have been around to give me my 2x4s then. smile

may22 #2900054 07/16/20 08:58 AM
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Thanks, WF. I heart you too. It means a lot when you say hi smile

Scout-- I love that. Entitlement validation error. I need to just have my computer voice go BLEERP, ERROR when he starts in on whatever he's going on about in the moment.

In speaking with the IC today I think I'll add one more to the list of his major flaws: entitlement, lack of empathy, and inability to take responsibility for his own actions. I was talking about this with my good friend today, who knows H well, and telling her these have always been personality traits of his I don't love. in fact, I feel I can trace most of my beefs with him to these three things. She asked-- has there ever been a time where you saw H really take responsibility for something major, something he did wrong, and admit it and work to rectify the situation? This stopped me cold. I couldn't think of a single time. Now I'm still thinking and I'm sure I have some level of confirmation bias going on here, but MAN. It really made me think that I'm barking up the wrong tree to think this man will suddenly sprout wings and come out of this chrysalis a butterfly.

I mean, is it possible? Crisis/trauma can spur major growth, like Alison said earlier-- but will that happen for *him*? I feel like signs are not pointing in that direction. One of the reasons I'd been confident this would work is that he has always tended to justify his decisions after the fact, such that everything that has happened to him turned out to be the best possible thing in the world. (FlySolo, like your H, right?) So I felt like if he made the choice to stay, once he got through the hardest part, he'd be motivated to do all he could to be sure this decision, like every other thing that has happened to him, was the right one and we'd be well on our way to M2.0.

Now... I'm not so sure that will be the case from where we are right now. One, he is doing his best to avoid making the decision himself, so it won’t have been his own decision but something that was thrust upon him. (The more I think about it, and I talked about this with the IC today, I think he purposely put this whole month-long trip together in order to force AP to be the one to make the decision.) Two, justifying his decision and actually doing the hard work are two very different things. I need to think on this some more.

He has made small and positive changes, I’ll give him that, like around the anger management and saying mean things area— which has been again one of the reasons i’d been hopeful for positive change, because I’d seen it in those areas and we’d been getting along so well this whole spring/summer. But now I’m wondering if those are just improvements in our communications channels and not really demonstrating that he can do the hard work… just that he can learn to stop being an @sshole, especially when being an @sshole doesn’t get him anywhere. And that is very different from taking responsibility, admitting you were wrong, purposefully putting himself in my shoes and understanding the hurt and damage he’s done, and digging deep to make these changes in himself and repair our R.

Had a great session with the IC today, and got more time with her tomorrow as we never got to the part about my job opportunities. I feel stronger than ever in sticking to my guns on the trip and what I need in order to go. Spent some time around why I am unable to be the one to make the choice to walk and I think it gets down to one of my core values, being a mom and having a family, and I can’t be the one to pull the trigger on ending that. She says I do need to protect my core values but it puts me in a position of disempowerment and wants to spend some time working on how I can take some of that power back without violating my core values. I’m wondering if it is about how I’m framing it.

No R talks today, except I told him after my session that it was great and I’m really centered in what I’ve said to him about what I need in order to go on the trip. He didn’t respond at all.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2900058 07/16/20 10:35 AM
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I mean, is it possible? Crisis/trauma can spur major growth, like Alison said earlier-- but will that happen for *him*?


The ONLY way your H will do the kind of internal work you're talking about is if CONSEQUENCES are imposed for his bad behaviour. That's why I keep harping on about the importance of YOU being the one to leave if you want any chance of reconciliation. He won't change unless he feels enough pain and shame to do so, and even then he might turn and run for the rest of his life - that's the risk you have to be willing to take. You have to leave him and be willing to lose him forever as a result. On his part - he will never value something he has never had to earn. On your part - unconditional love does not mean being an enabler.

The consequences must be severe. He completely loses any access to you. He loses 50% access to the kids. He is exposed as an adulterer to family and friends. He gives you and the kids long-term financial support. This is not done out of anger or to punish your H. In fact, it's the opposite. I think you are doing an unkindness to him by refusing to leave. I think you are standing in the way of his personal growth by refusing to impose consequences. Change is hard and people like to be comfortable. He is too weak to do it himself. Leaving him could be the impetus for him to finally change. Leaving him could be your greatest act of love.

Sidenote to Alison - DB has its uses, but it lacks a lot of nuance when it comes to abusive relationships. I believe infidelity is inherently abusive and therefore feel like I'm the black sheep of DB with my 2x4s coming from that angle. I followed some absolutely terrible advice in the five months between BD and filing for separation - I'm still shaking my fist at Laura Doyle. But it was all honest and earnest and part of the journey. I do believe everyone gets where they need to be eventually, with or without the 2x4s. You are in a fantastic place now smile

ETA: May, you are also doing great! I know you will get there on your terms and how important it is for you to own that.


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may22 #2900060 07/16/20 11:26 AM
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I have more thoughts about you leaving him. Let me paint you a picture.

As soon as you leave, he will go to be with the OW. It seems counter-intuitive, but you actually want this to happen.

The sooner they get together, particularly the sooner they move in together, the sooner the honeymoon stage of their relationship will be over. They will settle into the banality of a normal relationship which is subject to its usual stressors. Arguments about chores and bills. Sex becomes routine. She wants a kid and he doesn't. He can't afford to take her on a holiday due to his spousal and child support bills. She wants to move states but he can't leave the kids. They both get diarrhoea and sh!t themselves in front of each other. The fantasy crumbles.

Your H, having not done the work, brings his lack of accountability and poor coping skills and massive entitlement into this new relationship. I'm going to wager that OW is similarly lacking. They spackle over their shallow relationship built on lies and lust with filtered Instagram posts about #truelove and #blendedfamilies and #bonusmom. This part stinks, but you are too busy building your fabulous new life to check their social media. The kids have two birthdays and two Christmases every year and they're cool with it.

A year or two passes. You have reached the glorious state of meh and no longer have any feelings about H except indifference. Your kids will talk about him and OW and you'll say "cool", "bummer" or "wow" without feeling even a little sting. Then! You hear word from the kids that H and OW have broken up in dramatic fashion - probably more infidelity on either part, throw in a suicide threat, definitely some sad sausage Instagram posts. Your H realises what a colossal, gigantic c0ck-up he has made. He comes crawling back with promises and regrets. What happens next is up to you...


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may22 #2900062 07/16/20 12:11 PM
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The ONLY way your H will do the kind of internal work you're talking about is if CONSEQUENCES are imposed for his bad behaviour. That's why I keep harping on about the importance of YOU being the one to leave if you want any chance of reconciliation. He won't change unless he feels enough pain and shame to do so, and even then he might turn and run for the rest of his life - that's the risk you have to be willing to take. You have to leave him and be willing to lose him forever as a result. On his part - he will never value something he has never had to earn. On your part - unconditional love does not mean being an enabler.


I 100% agree with this.

And none of it is done in the spirit of punishing your H - to give out 'consequences' like you do to a misbehaving child. It isn't you he's really fighting with, it's the fact of life, and one of these facts of life is that you can't have all the benefits of a committed marriage in which to raise children and enjoy the intimate and caring benefits of a wife if you are a liar and a cheat. You didn't make that rule.

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Thanks, Scout, Alison. I'm feeling down this morning, still strong in my conviction around what I need in order to go on this trip, but kind of hopeless. Like even if he does cut off all contact with AP all that means is that I get to be the one to continue to deal with his $hit as my H. And if he doesn't I get to be the one to continue to deal with his $hit as my ex and the father of my kids. There is no winning path for me, no light at the end of the tunnel. I spent some time on the MLC boards this morning and am feeling like I made a bad call all those years ago to M this guy and even worse to bring children into the world with him. (Although of course I love them more than anything in the world and I can't imagine life without them so that also makes it messed up since they wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him. So if I go down that path I start to tiptoe into some self-blamey areas, I should have secured my M earlier for the children, I f-ed up and now we're here.)

I'm questioning my judgment and my choices and angry at him and myself. it doesn't help that our entire country is a $hitshow. I read an article the other day entitled "America literally drank away our children's future" because we couldn't bear to go any longer without bars and restaurants and FUN so now our kids don't get to go to school in the fall. Anyway. I'm feeling a bit contrary today.

Originally Posted by scout12
The ONLY way your H will do the kind of internal work you're talking about is if CONSEQUENCES are imposed for his bad behaviour. That's why I keep harping on about the importance of YOU being the one to leave if you want any chance of reconciliation. He won't change unless he feels enough pain and shame to do so, and even then he might turn and run for the rest of his life - that's the risk you have to be willing to take. You have to leave him and be willing to lose him forever as a result. On his part - he will never value something he has never had to earn. On your part - unconditional love does not mean being an enabler.

The consequences must be severe. He completely loses any access to you. He loses 50% access to the kids. He is exposed as an adulterer to family and friends. He gives you and the kids long-term financial support. This is not done out of anger or to punish your H. In fact, it's the opposite. I think you are doing an unkindness to him by refusing to leave. I think you are standing in the way of his personal growth by refusing to impose consequences. Change is hard and people like to be comfortable. He is too weak to do it himself. Leaving him could be the impetus for him to finally change. Leaving him could be your greatest act of love.

I agree with all of this. And/but... I'm absolutely enraged that the children have to pay the price, or part of the price, for the consequences of his behavior. That through no fault of their own, their family is broken up, they see love fail, they see their selfish dad choosing a new life and a new W and possibly new children over our family and them. I CANNOT FORGIVE THIS. Here's my difference... when I make the choice to walk, it will be forever. I won't want him back. I don't want to let him go to get him back. When that line is crossed, I can't see any part of me wanting anything to do with him that I'm not legally obliged to do, ever again.

Could I maybe change my mind? I guess so... I know there are plenty of friends on this board who have experienced S and are still willing to R. And yes, I also am beginning to be convinced it is a necessary part of the process if there is any future for us. But I just can't make it work in my head. Bringing the children into this by S-ing, for me, is violating a core value. If he does it, I'll never, ever forgive him. If I do it-- at least where I am today-- I'll never, ever forgive myself. That is where I am stuck.

Scout, the situation you illustrate... I don't know. I have a lot of thoughts around it. I doubt she'll move out here right away. She hasn't even told her sister, the closest person in her life, about H. And, knowing my H, if he makes this move he'll most likely stick it out and tell himself it was the best decision he ever made, following his heart, blah blah blah and they'll get M and have more kids and even if their R is total $hit on the inside, he'll never, ever admit it to himself because it needs to have been worth the sacrifices he made and the pain he put other people through.

Or, yes, he could totally crash and burn. I think of that situation and I only feel disgust and pity. I can't imagine getting myself to the glorious state of meh and ever wanting anything to do with that sad sack turning up on my doorstep. I'm scared that I would entertain it for the sake of the children, given what I'm willing to go through right now. And that.... f-ing TERRIFIES me. That I would extract myself from this d-bag and watch his selfishness and entitlement torpedo yet another relationship, and then ever willingly reengage.

But I could see it happening because he's the GD father of my children and as you know can be very, very charming when he feels like it. I'm so jealous of the LBSs without children who can just cut ties and walk. I'm so confused why AP is holding on so tight. She has no strings to H. They live thousands of miles away from each other. She never has to see him again. If I never had to see him again, if there wasn't all the complications of the children and how this would affect them and knowing he is going to be a part of my life forever no matter what... the thought of walking away and never seeing him again (even though it is impossible) is so freeing. There would be pain but it would be like the Queen of Dragons walking through fire and emerging unscathed and stronger than ever on the other side. Maybe I can imagine my girls like tiny dragons who will get stronger through the fire.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK
And none of it is done in the spirit of punishing your H - to give out 'consequences' like you do to a misbehaving child. It isn't you he's really fighting with, it's the fact of life, and one of these facts of life is that you can't have all the benefits of a committed marriage in which to raise children and enjoy the intimate and caring benefits of a wife if you are a liar and a cheat. You didn't make that rule.

I agree with you. H would not. "we get to make the rules." we don't have to live by society's standards. we can make this next evolution of our relationship whatever we want. Blah blah f-ing blah. It is so tiring to talk to him sometimes. But he is so entitled that he can't even accept that this is a fact of life. It is a punishment I'm exacting from him because he isn't doing what I want.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2900095 07/16/20 06:20 PM
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May, go easy on yourself. You are allowed to be as angry as you like for as long as you like, but blame never ever helps. For a marriage to work you need to take 100% responsibility for your part in things and no more, and so does your H. He isn't able to do this. You are doing this as best as you can and you did it as soon as you knew how to. Your husband is failing as a husband and as an adult. You can be furious about that, but it isn't your fault and there isn't a great deal you can do about it right now.

Your core values are keeping you stuck in a situation that is no good for you. I think your core value is to give your girls the very best upbringing that is within your capacity to provide. A happy home in a stable marriage is not on the menu of things you can give them right now and that 100% STINKS. It really does. I can't offer it to my children either, and it does, in my quiet moments, break my heart. I hear where you are coming from. None of that changes the fact that the family that your children are existing in now is fake. I don't doubt you love them and I believe your H does too, but this illusion of a happy family isn't real.

I bet you know children who are growing up between two houses with blended families who are just fine. Yes, it is painful, and no, it isn't what you wanted for them, but I sense a bit of judgement here that kids being brought up by separated or divorced parents are getting second best, and I don't think that is true. I am sure if I end up bringing my kids up alone, with H visiting them in the week or taking them at weekends and holidays, you would not judge me, would not think I was a bad mother, and would not assume I was not offering anything other than a great upbringing to my kids. If there was ever a kind step father in their lives, I am sure you would not judge me as giving them second best. There are infinite ways to make a family. And infinite ways for kids to navigate the normal bumps and lumps and transitions of life.

You have the opportunity now to show them what self respect, honesty, boldness and boundaries look like. If they are girls, this is especially important. You can show them that within a good marriage, or you can show them that in a collaborative divorce. I am not sure you can show them that in your current situation. They might not be aware of what is happening now, but I can see unless you act to change it decisively, this limbo situation will spinning on for years, your anger corroding into bitterness, and your children, as they mature into young women, learning that Mom needs to go along with what Dad wants to keep him happy, no matter what it costs her. They'll see Mom's light slowly but surely going out, and think marriage is about Mom being angry and resentful and unhappy and Dad being an entitled teenager. The more angry and resentful you are, the more distance there will be between you and your H and he will end up in another affair, or just continuing with his current mistress for as long as it is convenient to them. I don't know of that many more damaging lessons to teach young women about heterosexual marriage: I am sure many of us women are here on these boards because, in some way, we learned that lesson from our own mothers.

And when your H says 'we can make this marriage whatever we want' what he means is 'what I want'. He really doesn't care at all about what you want and he hasn't done in years - if he was so interested in having an evolved marriage, he would have involved you in his decision to have another sexual and intimate partner. He kept that secret from you and took away your consent to the relationship you were in. He's still doing it now, only he's doing it to your face.

Last edited by AlisonUK; 07/16/20 06:21 PM.
may22 #2900113 07/16/20 07:44 PM
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May can I tell you a little story about my exH. My exH went into a downward spiral after I left and as I built my self up and reclaimed my life, started dating, and then fell in love, my ex went into a deeper depresssion. Then one day decided he didn't want to be like that any more. Worked on himself a little. Started to date. Met a great girl. She was an absolute angel to D17. She came to every sporting event, every concert, every big moment. No hesitation. She made sure exH was there, was sober, was happy and attentive to his D. We loved her. She made my ex a better man. A better man than I ever could. And I did beat myself up about that for a while. I had so convinced myself that he was the toxic one I hadn't taken the time to realize we simply were toxic for each other. As their relationship progressed I accepted more and more that he and I simply weren't meant for each other. We weren't meant to be together forever. He was put in my life to give me my beautiful baby, who is no longer a baby. And that was his purpose. She is all the wonderful things about him. And she does carry a few of the not so wonderful things about him. Stinky feet, a need to sleep 10 hours or be a monster to deal with, etc. He got to be there for all her baby firsts. And some of her formative years. But at 9 her and I were on our own and she said she wished I had done it sooner. Because him and I together was terrible for her. In the years since ExH blew up that amazing relationship that made him a better man. He has a new trashy gf who has 4 kids from 4 baby daddies. She was married when they started sleeping together. ExH is drinking heavily again, and not caring for his mental health. And no matter what happened in this house D17 was helped by her parents splitting up.

All kids fair better in 2 households than then do in 1 toxic one. If your H won't put in the work your home will become so toxic it won't just be confined to the two of you any more. Toxicity like that seeps out, oozing all over everything. You can't control it either. It will effect your kids. And you have no idea in what way until it's too late.

You know how I feel about standing. If you can't, won't, or other wise are unable to be the one to pull the plug so be it. You stay. You figure this out. You do what you need to do. I am 100% on board with once you're done you're done, but you're not giving up with out a fight. I am that exact same person. If you aren't in a place to throw in the towel so be it. But don't stick this out for the kids. And sorry but a little 2x4 here don't say it's for the kids when it's not. Since this newest little revelation of H being a waste of oxygen you bring up the girls a lot but it's nearly always about how you think they are going to feel, and all of that is based on how you're feeling. Not the reality of how they will deal with things, because the truth is you don't know. Some kids take all of this stuff very personally, but most kids won't give a d@mn that they have a separated mommy and daddy once they start getting 2 christmases and birthdays. The wonderful thing about children is they are incredibly self involved by design. And also resilient. If you love them and support them to the best of your ability none of this has to affect them deeply or in the long term. If you always choose to put your daughters' feeling above your own regardless of the hate fire you have for H or AP or who ever may come in the future, you will always have well adjusted, happy girls. You're an amazing mother. And he's a great dad. The only thing imposing on them not having a rough go of it isn't you two separating and ending the marriage, it's you two in a constant power struggle for the rest of their lives. You don't have to be the bigger person now or ever. But as I've told wooba, I will tell you. Meet him where he's at. You can't expect rational behavior or logical, mindful choices from your H. The sooner you can start making the best decisions for you and the girls devoid of emotion the better. Because for the rest of the girls life you will have to be the bigger person. The more detached person. The water off a duck's back person. Because H isn't capable. You have to choose your battles. You have to choose your words. You have to make the hard decisions and swallow your ego more often than you should. But it's what we do as mothers.

Stay if you need more time to figure this out. Leave if you can't take this any more. But please don't do either based almost entirely on what you think the girls want or need. They need two parents who love them. That doesn't mean they need you together.

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