FlySolo..... yes. LOL. Guess the silver lining of all of this is that self-care is once again a part of my life. (And why is it not the same for dads???)
I just told him that in order for me to be comfortable going on this trip, I had to feel comfortable that he was not going to be in contact with her at all, and the current situation wasn't going to do it. I needed him to delete WhatsApp, block her phone number and email, probably in front of me. He said he couldn't delete WhatsApp because he has a colleague in another country with whom it is their primary means of communication, and so I said then you need to send an email asking her to respect your decision and maybe I need to see that email.
He said, okay. He also feels he needs to be completely out of contact for this trip with her too. Then, though, he said he can't feel like I'm laying down the law and he's submitting. That it makes him feel that this will be the rest of our lives. I said, I'm not telling you to do this. I'm just telling you what I need in order to go. I don't want to live like this forever. But we're in a fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me situation right now.
He wrote me a note and gave it to me. It reiterates what he said above. The only way to do this trip and be fair to me and to himself is to have her completely out of the picture for the trip (but I don't think this means he's committing to the MR or to her being completely out of the picture forever). That he knows I have trust issues with him and he has trust issues with our future. But he doesn't like being treated like a child and I can either trust him now, or not. But he still really wants to make this trip happen. Please don't make this trip a forcing issue for us to stay together or not. Can't it just be a trip, and a pause, for the girls, and we can come back to the hard stuff after, as necessary?
I don't think I should budge on the transparency. I also feel like I'm at a place right now where we could split and I could deal with it. I don't know that I'll feel like that after a fun family vacation-- my guess is that I'll feel more like I did in June and this will all just be extra hard and damaging again. He needs to be able to understand my side of this and at least respect my feelings and needs. Right?
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
"I don't feel comfortable going on this trip." "I won't go on the trip UNLESS you cut contact with OW." "I won't go on the trip BECAUSE you won't cut contact with OW."
Listen to your gut. You either feel comfortable or you don't. He's right - you either trust him or you don't. If you know you can't trust him, then you know you won't be comfortable. That's your boundary. The other stuff is control. He's done nothing to earn your trust, and if he capitulates because of your conditions or reactions, it will not be genuine. You might get what you want by controlling him, but you won't feel safe in your gut. The gut always knows!
Look at his weasel words. "I need to be completely out of contact FOR THIS TRIP with her." His weakness is both pathetic and staggering. There's only one answer that will satisfy you, I think, and he's not giving it. "I have permanently deleted and blocked all possible forms of contact with OW." He's just flattering you to buy himself more time while he gets the prize of the family vacation. "It's for the children!" Using your children to guilt you is awful and manipulative.
You will not enjoy being the marriage police and he will resent you for it.
I said, I'm not telling you to do this. I'm just telling you what I need in order to go.
Well said.
Originally Posted by may22
That he knows I have trust issues with him and he has trust issues with our future. But he doesn't like being treated like a child and I can either trust him now, or not.
It's like, "Trust is earned. I don't trust you that far, based on some of your recent choices, but I'm open to rebuilding trust. You'd have to be transparent for awhile. Show me. Don't tell me."
It's silly comparing verification to childishness. Loan officers verify when extending credit. The last time I hired a housecleaner I verified her references, and she verified my payment info.
Look at his weasel words. "I need to be completely out of contact FOR THIS TRIP with her." His weakness is both pathetic and staggering. There's only one answer that will satisfy you, I think, and he's not giving it. "I have permanently deleted and blocked all possible forms of contact with OW." He's just flattering you to buy himself more time while he gets the prize of the family vacation. "It's for the children!" Using your children to guilt you is awful and manipulative.
Yes. I see this, absolutely. I still think I could be comfortable if he did the above-- permanently deleted and blocked all possible forms of contact with OW-- just because that is how I am. I don't think I'd do a lot of checking or anything. But that isn't what he is offering at this moment, and temporary halting isn't enough.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
It's silly comparing verification to childishness. Loan officers verify when extending credit. The last time I hired a housecleaner I verified her references, and she verified my payment info.
Ha! Yes.
I wrote him a note back. I said, I get that you feel like you're being treated like a child. But... you aren't being treated like a child. You're being treated like a liar. Which, unfortunately, you have proven to be time and time again. So that is where we are and your word simply isn't enough any more.
I also said, I don't want to go on this trip if I'm worried you're still in touch with her. I also don't want to go on this trip and not be worried because you are out of contact with her for that month only, have a great time as a family, and then get hit with another bomb when we get home because you decide to get back in touch with her. I think I'm setting myself up for an even worse trauma than what happened in June and my mental health can't sustain that again.
I don't trust that you're not in contact with her right now. I don't trust that you aren't telling her "give me this month and this vacation and then we'll be together." Sorry. I simply don't have that trust. And in order for me to participate on this trip, I need to have that security-- cutting off all contact and means of contact with her permanently. If you aren't comfortable doing that for whatever reason, maybe this trip wasn't meant to be. If you want to work on our marriage in any capacity, that has to happen first. And if you can't do it... then why bother trying?
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Small update-- we talked a little about what I'd written back. He said he feels like I'm giving him an ultimatum, he doesn't understand what changed today (tbh I started to get nervous about the timeline ticking and me not having said what I needed to say about the trip), he feels this is a microcosm of our whole M, me telling him what has to happen and him doing it, if I take this trip away from him he'll never forgive me. (drama.) He is not in contact with her and doesn't plan to be. (ok, buddy.)
I said, I can't blindly trust you. I need something more concrete. And repeated some of what I had written. I don't want to go being worried that you're talking to her. I don't want to go and be worried that you're going to BD on me as soon as we get back. I feel like you're manipulating me to get what you want-- this trip-- and I can't continue to put myself through this. There is simply no point if you can't commit to excising her from our lives completely and permanently.
He said, I can't block her, because she told me in the recent midst of all this that she's been having suicidal thoughts and that she can always reach out to me. (Drama) I said, no. She has other people to rely on for that. It can't be you. If you can't block her, then we shouldn't bother trying. I'm not going into a situation that is set up to fail.
He said, what does blocking her matter? If I want to get back in touch with her, I will be able to. I said, because the last time you "tried" it was all going well until she threw this bomb of moving on. If that hadn't happened, we might be in a really different situation right now. And so the thing I've learned from that experience is it makes no sense to do it if she can still contact you (OMG especially to tell him she is SUICIDAL! WTF! So literally the only reason he's leaving on the table for her to contact him is that she literally can't live without him! And I'm supposed to be okay with that!). So, that is a non-starter for me. And, yes. I get that it doesn't mean that you won't contact her anyway. I don't know why I'm doing this anyway, honestly. It all seems pointless.
He said, I'm choosing to stay in this M because you've illustrated a D scenario that is so awful that I can't put the children through that. (I do't think this is true. Yes, early on I did tell him I would take him to the f-ing cleaners. More recently all I've said is that we will not be friends.) So that is why I'm staying. I said, I don't think that is the case. if we split, you'll be happy again, I will be too. He said you've never said anything to indicate you think that. I said, don't worry about me. I'll be fine. And maybe we should talk more about what D will look like, then. He said, maybe we should.
He said, I love you. There are lots of good things about us. Maybe this trip will be the X location (trip we went on where I had the big breakthrough) for me. (Charm and total BS manipulation up the wazoo.) I said I don't believe that.
He said, I just am not confident that we can work this all out, that we are going to be fine at the other end of this even with her out of the picture. I'm sad about the past. You stole a decade of my sex life from me. I'm not sure I can forgive that. (Yes, he really said that. Drama.)
This is partially out of order, so one thing didn't necessarily lead to another. I felt anger and used it. I was not conciliatory or nice, really. I stood my ground. I feel things may be actually moving, though I'm not sure in which direction and I'm not sure I really care.
All the hotels have 24 hour cancellation and the next two weeks aren't yet booked. So, no huge rush. I said my piece, he has his IC appt tomorrow and I have mine on Wed. We agreed to talk again after those.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
stand your ground - you really really really have to. If you let him weasel you around on this one, you're just demonstrating to him that it works, that you're willing to be manipulated, and that your own boundaries don't matter.
Don't be afraid of him calling you controlling. I sense you have a lot of fear around that. If I can smell it, he can, and he will use it.
You are not trying to control him. He is free to do precisely what he wants. You are telling him you won't go on the trip under certain circumstances.
He has no right at all to pout, to write little moany notes, to try to put this on you. You were very clear you didn't want to go on the trip unless you felt you could trust him. He's not willing to take the transparency actions that would help you trust him. He is choosing this, not you.
He WANTS her to be able to get in touch with him. He wants to leave that door open. He wants to have his cake and eat it, even as he has been ignoring your boundaries and planning a trip you've said you don't want.
During the SSM, he could have left you. He chose not to. He has a contribution to that situation and the SSM doesn't mean you owe him an open relationship and mindless obedience now.
I think for the your own self respect and the health of any future relationship you have with him, you have to stick to your guns. Say as little as possible now. You've been very clear and the ball is in his court so leave it there. Every single time you have a conversation about this, he is trying to give you back the ball and you have to make all this effort to leave it with him. Just refuse the conversations. 'You know what my decision is on this. You are free to do whatever you want. Because you are a liar and because you don't want to be transparent about blocking her, I have decided not to go on the trip.' That's it. Over and over again like a broken record. Nothing else.
He will try ALL the channels, May. Fasten your seatbelt.
Oh yes, we are on. We did talk some tonight (you know I'm absymal at not talking) but I did stick to my guns.
Quote
Don't be afraid of him calling you controlling. I sense you have a lot of fear around that. If I can smell it, he can, and he will use it.
LOTS around this. I'm controlling, his entire family always has told him I'm controlling, he told his mom recently that I used to be controlling and she agreed, IC thinks I'm controlling, I was trying to tell him something about an incident from many years ago and I had felt like I needed to assert my independence and he interrupted to say "that is like we're sitting at the beach, and I'm buried to my neck in sand, and I'm trying to dig myself out and a few grains get on your leg and you're like, oh no! I'm covered in sand!" (This, I walked away from.)
Later, I got some anger "Why are you doing this? I've been trying to convince myself that this is what I want, and then you go and remind me of all the reasons why I don't want to be in an R with you." And then he went on a litany of all the things I didn't allow him to do over the years and how many ways he tried to convince himself that was OK. Oh, and I also got more of the "you were older than me, and smarter than me, and I modeled myself after you... my entire adult life has been controlled by you."
I mostly just listened to this and disagreed when it was my turn to talk. No validating, no DBing. I can also see how DBing works in the moment, though-- I *easily* could have defused everything with some validation and changing of the subject. Instead, I got him super riled up to the "why are you doing this" point, and then he huffed into bed (next to me).
But, I did stick to my guns. He brought up the "I need to get over AP and I will want you to help me with that-- appropriately (his IC told him it wasn't OK to process his feelings about AP with me, and apparently THAT is what it took for him to stop, not me telling him over and over to please not do it), but I can't get over AP by following the instructions you have laid out for me. That isn't going to work for me. It needs to be something I come up with." I said (again) we tried it your way last time and it didn't work, did it?
He said, I get that you don't trust me. I get that I need to earn that back. I get that you can say you need me to delete all her stuff for you to trust me. But you also have another motive alongside trust, and that is that you win when she's gone. I said, no. That isn't winning. That is NOT WINNING. AP being out of the picture is one small but necessary step in the path towards us working out, if we do. He said, but you're not giving me a choice. You won't even talk about us, or the SSM. The only thing you'll talk about is me cutting off all contact with her. I said, I'm not in a contest. I'm not the consolation prize. And I totally felt his manipulation there.
OK. So, this is the thing. I'm not saying I don't go on this trip... I'm saying the kids don't go either. He could take them for a week of it, I'm fine with that. But it isn't that he's going to take the kids for four weeks and I'm just saying no thanks, have fun, I'll be at home. That is not okay with me. So by me saying I'm not going, it means the trip isn't happening as he has envisioned it, four full weeks. He'd have to cut it down significantly, or go alone for most of it. (I'd be OK with him taking the kids for a week of it.) And since he is saying his primary driver to do this trip is for the children, my refusal to go means the trip doesn't happen, or at least not in its current form or length. Does that change anything? *AM* I being controlling? I thought by giving into the five day trip I was being cool... but I would never even when we were happily M ok with him taking the kids away from me for more than a week.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
So by me saying I'm not going, it means the trip isn't happening as he has envisioned it, four full weeks.
Of course it isn't. He doesn't get to lie and cheat and hold the door open for his mistress AND get the sorts of things that happen in committed marriages. He wants a committed marriage and everything that goes with it, then he actually commits to the marriage.
Otherwise, you proceed as a separated couple who have to cohabit. Which means separate vacations with the children.
Haven’t you talked the marriage and SSM to death already? What he really means is “You’re not letting me blame you anymore for my affair”. Your H’s emotional abuse is really insidious and difficult to separate from actual facts and that makes it quite scary. He knows your sore spots and has no compulsion pushing them over and over and then saying you made him do it. There’s little difference between “I wouldn’t hit you if you didn’t make me so angry” and “I wouldn’t cheat on you if you weren’t so controlling.”
Please, please, please protect your sore spot. Your H will accuse you of being controlling no matter how reasonable your request. When I asked X to provide his new home address so I knew where my non-verbal baby was spending time with him, he accused me of being controlling. I actually questioned myself! You need a voice of reason and sanity, preferably a lawyer and a psychologist, giving you advice until you are confident enough to trust your motivations. It’s so difficult when you’re in an abusive relationship to do this because they know exactly how to make you doubt your reality.
It’s calculated and it’s abusive. It’s control. To the controlling man, boundaries feel like oppression. He is losing control and he knows it and will fight harder to maintain it. Let him have his flying monkeys - his family and his IC - they are only hearing his story and they are invested in helping him. Be true to your boundaries. If you are not comfortable with him taking the kids away for four weeks, then that’s your position and it’s not up for negotiation. Maybe you need outside permission to implement this boundary? Here, I give you permission
To the controlling man, boundaries feel like oppression.
This is GOLD.
My H feels controlled when I don't allow him to have tantrums in the same room as me. Now, the man is totally free to have a tantrum in whichever room in the house he chooses. He can rant and swear and foam and scream and blame and use all the curse words his hearts desire. He can do it as often as he likes for as long as he likes. And when he starts, I leave the room so he can fully enjoy his tantrum in peace and privacy.
He finds this a controlling move on my part, limiting him in what he is allowed to say and how he can express himself in our marriage. It's very horrible for him. He told me the other day that he felt 'cancelled'.
The only thing he isn't able to control in that situation is my response to his tantrums. And THAT is the bit he doesn't like.
I think this applies very clearly to your situation May. VERY clearly.
