Trying to Detach

[may22]

Last Thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2898449&page=all

Quick recap-- H had a 2 year long distance PA. Two daughters, aged 8 and 10. I found out full extent at the end of December, we went through six weeks of DC and incredible ambivalence where H wanted both AP as a lover and me as best friend/co-parent. He decided to end the A in mid-February though his decision was based more on the kids, inability to continue the current situation for all of us because of the overwhelming stress, and AP's desire to have children (she's 11 years younger than me and H firmly does not want more children) rather than a desire for me as a wife. We had four months of getting along very well, enjoying family time with the lockdown, planning for the future. We stopped MC during lockdown as no childcare and H wanted to take a break given the potential stress of MC and quarantine together. Then three and a half weeks ago I found out that a couple weeks before that he got back in touch with AP-- she'd texted him to say she was moving on, he reached out to see if she was OK with the protests in her area-- and all of a sudden we have rewound back to January. He's scared he is going to miss out on this one chance to be happy, back to his fantasy D scenario where we remain best friends and we co-own the house and have dinner together every night with the kids, insisting that we make this decision together. (Which I refuse to do.) He's also refused to MO, saying he would want to move to the basement and not out of the house entirely (until, presumably, she moved out here. She lives 5k miles away. Oh, and now says she looooooooves H so much she doesn't need kids anymore.)

Over the past couple of weeks, after the initial shock and whiplash wore off, I've been really focusing on myself and working on detaching. I started seeing an IC, have had a couple of attorney consults, worked out some budget stuff and a child sharing proposal to feel OK about being on my own. I've started to surface my anger instead of burying it deep, which is centering around the lying, the A, the half-@$$ed "trying" from Feb-May (when he WAS really started to disengage from her and refocus on us, though that is buried now in his revisionist history), the potential D derailing a new career I was preparing to embark on this summer with H's full support but can't really do on my own-- but mostly centered around him actually leaving. I am refusing to help him make this decision. I'm also working on delinking my own behaviors from consciously or subconsciously trying to manipulate him, and identifying his manipulative behaviors towards me. Trying to parse through my own anger and fears to get to a place where I can be whole and detached regardless of what is happening with H.

We have/had a month-long trip planned for the end of July into August. Last week I told him I didn't want to go on this vacation and play happy family in the current situation. He sat on that for a couple of days and then proposed two five-day trips and he takes the kids. I initially said no, then some of you wise posters here helped me see that was controlling on my part, and I told him it was fine. He thought on this for a couple more days and then on the weekend told me he doesn't want to get divorced, he is going to break it off with AP (again, this time for good). His reasons did not have anything to do with wanting me, more about the children and all the other things about D he doesn't want (the house, the financials, etc) plus is back to he can't have an R with someone who wants children. He expressed his fears that he'll never get over the SSM that preceded the A and be able to fall back in love with me. I was and am very skeptical. Told him to give it some time, he might change his mind, also asked what would be different this time around (no good answer to this one). We have managed to not talk about it since then and both have our IC appointments tomorrow, after which I imagine it may come up again. He has now thrown himself into planning this full month-long trip, which we both know isn't happening if we are still in the status quo, but I'm sure we could figure something out where he takes the kids on half of it and I take them somewhere fun for the other half. I haven't reminded him of any of this. At some point we'll have to address it, I guess-- I don't want to just slide into this trip unless I see major changes, which I'm not really expecting at this point.

So... that's where we are. Hope, Job, WF, I'll respond separately to you guys.

[Sage4]

Darling May. I have been reading your threads religiously but haven't been able to post any of my thoughts. In no particular order:

You are amazing. And so strong and so good. Not a soul could accuse you of not having your heart and mind in the right place. The heart and mind play games with each other, always trying to outcompete. I see that playing out in your posts. So normal. So true. So human. At the end of the day, only YOU get to decide which voice 'wins'. It's up to you.

I have read people suggesting you focus less on H and more on you. But there is a selfish side of me that WANTS to hear H's story, or your view of it. Because years down the road, when your story is one of the DB annals, people want to read your H's side and think 'that's MY H to a T!' And then look to your voice for guidance and think 'I too can do what she did!' So please don't diminish your voice, or your H's voice in your threads. Who cares if you are perfectly DBing or doing exactly what everyone says you should. Your voice is human and real, just like all of ours. Keep posting the truth as you see it, we all (present and future) need it. And at the very least, perhaps this forum is a journal where you get to read your own personal journey and see how far you have come (I see you, I heart you, AlisonUK).

Having said that, the folks suggesting May stays true to May is valid. Keep fighting for the real May. Whomever she may be in the moment. (And it's OK to flip-flop between angry-May and heartfelt-May and trusting-May and hopeful-May and despairing-May all in the same moment, BTW)

My IC has had me focus in on my heart lately. Getting out of my head, the analytical, scientist side of me, and into my heart. The heart speaks the intuitive, real truth, if only the head allows it. I think that perhaps your heart wants to let things play out... is H for real this time? Is this really it? And I think it is OK to let your heart lead for a bit. Your head will always be there; you are no pansy pushover; you too are analytical and probably of a scientific background. Your head will step in and save you when it needs to. This may go against most advice out there. So take it or leave it. And obviously, do what you need to do to save your own soul, whatever path that may be.

Your H is a lying cheater who has rocked your marriage to the core. He is also confused. And human. He is not the worst on these threads, nor the best. Only HE can make the best decision for himself. And YOUR power lays in whether or not his best decision for himself is good enough for you. MAY HAS THE POWER. Remind yourself of this over and over and over again. You don't have to take him back. You can choose to take him back. Or not. MAY HAS THE POWER. (Disregard the kids in this instance... children will always be best when their primary model is at her best)

I keep coming back to the whole 'love is a verb' concept. Maybe H comes back for the kids. For fear of D. Who is to say that over time that he will STAY for love of you? Again, I may be anti-DB in my approach, but if you read all the success stories, I feel the common thread is that the LBS gains the power over the decision (almost always a construct in their head that the WAS responds to) and that is what brings the WAS back again. Can you both stay true to the truest of May's heart wishes AND not give a flying f*** what H decides in the end?

If and when you get there, give me back the same advice. I SEE you, girl.

So much love.
s

[may22]

Job, Hope— thank you. I know this intellectually but in the thick of it, it gets difficult. I also do sometimes get frustrated with myself. It feels like it would be sooooo much easier just to say F U to my H and walk. Call up all my friends and family and explain what is going on. Wash my hands of him. And then I'm wondering why I'm so resistant to this and can't I just listen to everyone? I guess I’m just not yet at a point where I feel I can do that without regret— and that is really important to me, the no regrets part.

I did stop by to talk a bit about the p!ssed off at the leaving vs the actual affair. I wrote what's below back in January. Maybe it can help you sort out where you're at. I was never as upset as people here or IRL think I should've been about the affair. Abandoning me and our marriage and our kids because he was too stupid or stubborn to face his issues head on that, that upset me.

I was actually re-reading your threads from back then, WF. (And got annoyed at myself for some of my posts to you, sorry!!) And I read this and it stuck with me. For me, it is less about the rewriting of history, because that seems to have gone by the wayside. More recently, since this last BD, he’s actually been romanticizing our early R, said he worshipped me, the silliness I brought into our R that he’d never known, how his brother made so much fun of him for our dumb nicknames. Stuff I’d forgotten. He said, maybe that May grew up. You aren’t silly like that with me anymore. And in M2.0 he doesn’t want to worship anyone. He wants a partner. He doesn’t want someone who can read him like a book. He wants someone to write the book with him. (Not sensing he thinks I’m that person… I’m the one who can read him like a book.)

What frustrates me more is the part about your H calling your home HOME. My H absolutely sees this as his home and me and the kids as his family. He just wants this other thing and maybe wants it so badly that he’s willing to blow this all up and cause all this collateral damage. He has said he thinks the damage he’s done to me and the MR is so great that maybe it can’t be fixed and maybe it is smarter to start over. And that just grinds me— that you can have all that history and all these years and the children and our lives together so entwined and yet not be willing to actually work on what went wrong, be ready to throw it all away and start fresh because trying is too difficult. As I write this, I wonder if this is maybe part of the reason I’m standing— because I do believe so strongly in the foundation of what we have and it is worth fighting for… much like you just wrote on your own thread.

I also wanted to mention that I've dealt with the same thing you've dealt with of how much easier this would be if H was a "duck" (god I love that cardinal..lol) all the time. I see how hostile and combative some of these WS/WAS are and I think well that would've been easy. And maybe it's charm for the sake of charm, and maybe it's them being themselves for just a little peek but I think it makes everything harder when you see who you thought they were.

I love that Cardinal too… “duck” brings a smile to my face every time.

I think the problem is not we see who we thought they were, or (for the most part) that they have textbook NPD and are purposely saying things to keep us off balance and where they want us. I think the problem is that people are complicated, and have both the ability to lie and cheat and also still be in many ways the same person they were before they cheated. I’m sure some people totally break and go completely off. But I don’t think that is my H. I think this is why my H is so glommed onto the SSM as his reason for straying, because that allows him to excuse his own behavior without needing to lean on the “we’ve never been happy” rewriting of history, or being mean to me to provoke me into being a B and prove to himself he was making the right choice. He did that early on, before I even knew about the A. He was a textbook a-hole WAS, hostile, mean, picking fights. If I’d been BD-ed then I never would have even looked for this site because I would have been long gone. Somehow, in our individual journeys through all of this— and I do think DB-ing helped a lot, the 180s and validating and GALing I did all before I even found out he had “feelings” for someone else, just knew ILYB and that something was really wrong— we’ve left much of that behind. Which is frustrating both because mean H is a lot easier to hate than the H I have right now, but also because it shows that we are capable of growth as a couple.

Now I’ve spent all this time talking about H and our R. But, it definitely helps me to parse out how I feel about all of this, why i’m still here, what I’m really angry about. But I promise to keep focusing on me.

Sage… OMG. You do see me. I was overwhelmed reading your post. I am going to think on it and respond later but wanted to just say thank you.

Tonight I felt sad again. No R talks again (pretty good, you guys. Nothing since he said he was going to break it off with AP and I said uh… ok….let’s not rush into anything). he’s researching for the trip, being kind and funny but I sense he’s sad too and I think the trip planning is just his version of GALing. We both have IC appointments tomorrow…. will see what happens after that. At some point I know I’ll have to ask WTF is going on with AP if he doesn’t volunteer it, because of this trip. But I’d really rather not.

[may22]

Feeling anxious and cr@ppy today. I had a meeting that turned into a potential job offer, and/or if I wasn't interested in a fulltime job, they want to find opportunities for me to consult with them. She's sending me a JD and compensation package on the weekend.

I just feel depressed about it. It would be a high-energy place to work and just knowing how my brain has been the past year, going into a D is not the time to embark on a big new job. My executive coach thinks I should actually take a step down in my current job- go to 32 hours a week- to maintain FT status and benefits but reduce my salary so as to reduce any possibility of paying spousal support to my H. She coaches many executive women and said she didn't want to scare me but she's seen it happen with a dozen of her clients. (She is also Ded and remarried, her first H was a serial cheater and she has said multiple times she knows that experience is coloring her advice, but that doesn't change her advice either.) I suspect that this job may pay substantially more than my current one and so from that aspect alone it might not be a good idea to take it.

I'm just sad and mad that he's put us in this place that I can't even be happy that I have so many job opportunities in front of me right now. I have another meeting on Friday morning about joining a big firm as an adjunct consultant. All of this would have been reason for excitement and gratitude and a little bit of the "pinch me, I *am* good at what I do and it is recognized" feelings. Instead I just feel down. Maybe something to talk about with the IC later today.

[scout12]

Aw, that does stink. I can totally see you being a high achiever in the workplace. The job offer validates your efforts and achievements even if you don't take it. This is such a hard place to be (((May)))

[cardinal]

Still reading, still here, glad I could contribute "duck." That would make me feel anxious an cr@ppy too, may. Congrats! and also I'm sorry this offer can't just be an uncomplicated awesome thing for you. It s*cks the way these situations trickle into pretty much every aspect of our lives, even our careers. It does still mean you are a bad*ss and really good at what you do. Could this be a thing where you could choose to do some consulting with them in the near-future, and maybe another opportunity for FT would arise when the timing is better for you? Would a lawyer probably be in agreement with your coach? I hope your IC session is helpful!

Also, just nodding along with you and WF here:

And that just grinds me— that you can have all that history and all these years and the children and our lives together so entwined and yet not be willing to actually work on what went wrong, be ready to throw it all away and start fresh because trying is too difficult. As I write this, I wonder if this is maybe part of the reason I’m standing— because I do believe so strongly in the foundation of what we have and it is worth fighting for… much like you just wrote on your own thread.

YEP! I know thinking about the decision to just end it, no trying, forget the history, still gets to me, and it's something I'll have to work on letting go of. Another thing not in my control.

At some point I know I’ll have to ask WTF is going on with AP if he doesn’t volunteer it, because of this trip. But I’d really rather not.

Is this something you have to do if you'd rather not? How else could this trip look that maybe feels better to you? Do you want to go on this trip together right now, regardless of how H says he is feeling, or would you rather approach it in another way? Use it as time for yourself or time with H and the kids, and then with just you and the kids?

[may22]

Sage.

Wow. Your post really hit me in a lot of different ways.

Today was a hard day. Before my IC appointment I asked H if he'd changed his mind. He said "about what?" I said what you said on the weekend, wanting to break it off again with AP. He said, no, I'm still in that same place... but... I said, you haven't done anything concrete towards it? He said I just don't know what to do. I go through the whole thing in my head and I don't know how to actually do it. I'm worried that this deadline of the trip is a false deadline. I said, there needs to be some decision at some point. This can't go on forever. He slouched off looking sorry for himself.

I talked to the IC about it at length, plus more on boundaries, whether or not I'd ever be able to forgive my H anyway, this trip, the SSM... we were all over the place. She is concerned that the affair or things around it are starting to be normalized for me, even things like saying her name (for the longest time I never said her name, just that person or another person. I have said her name in conversation with H and with IC recently).

We talked about space and I said even if he breaks it off with AP I don't think I'll go on this trip for the whole time, I'd stay home at least a week-- I think we both need a break from each other. I haven't told him this, of course. I feel like by setting up this trip and booking all the hotels he's kind of setting up this THING that he'll use to convince himself he's gone too far along in planning and has to break it off with AP, and/or using the fact that he told me he was going to break it off plus all the planning to hook me back in somewhat so that I stop... idk. maybe stop bothering him with a deadline?

IC asked if he doesn't break it off and I'm not satisfied with the plan (I told her I'm NOT going through this $hit again in four more months) what would the consequences be? Would he have to MO? And again, the only time I cry... I broke down saying I can't be the one to do that. That is just such a deeply held line for me, on both sides. She said, OK.

Next week we'll work on how to keep my emotional life from sabotaging my professional life and my homework for this week is to focus on doing things that comfort me and bring me joy and to focus on me, not the kids or H. ME. (Again. I'm really glad I started seeing her because she is terrific and I always feel better after talking with her. But. this board has totally been playing that same role for me and saying the same things. You are all AWESOME.)

there is a selfish side of me that WANTS to hear H's story, or your view of it. Because years down the road, when your story is one of the DB annals, people want to read your H's side and think 'that's MY H to a T!' And then look to your voice for guidance and think 'I too can do what she did!' So please don't diminish your voice, or your H's voice in your threads. Who cares if you are perfectly DBing or doing exactly what everyone says you should. Your voice is human and real, just like all of ours. Keep posting the truth as you see it, we all (present and future) need it.

I remember thinking at some point as I was posting all the craaaaaazy stuff H was telling me that maybe the weirdness of H having no filter with me would help others, whose Hs may be in similar situations but are able to keep their traps shut about it.

I feel like there are some unusual things about my situation, it has gone on so long, but his AP lives so far away, they've only seen each other maybe 12-14 times (I counted it all up at some point but don't remember exactly what it was... something like 64 total possible days over two years that they could have been in the same city at the same time.), he started IC a year into the A. We went through the a-hole alien H and rewriting history phase and are pretty much on the other end of that. I'm confident if she lived here I would have found out about it a lot sooner and if he was sneaking around with her in real time I would have had a lot harder time with that--imagining that in the future is really hard for me-- so somehow the distance made it seem less real to me and kept me from getting as enraged as I might have otherwise. Also, I'm sure if she lived here he'd have a lot more pressure to MO-- the distance has helped him to really compartmentalize a lot. His IC has helped him a lot on some of his own issues outside of his ambivalence about AP and the M, and the MC-- both times around-- actually did help us in our communication skills, so we are talking about things we never would have talked about before, both about our R and ourselves.

All that to say... I feel like for all of these reasons, my sitch isn't playing out in quite the same way as others, and maybe part of all of that is that i get a little deeper peek into the confused head of the LBH than most. (Not that it makes a lot of sense.) I will try to keep posting about him for that reason. Though, I'm really trying not to hear from him directly about a number of things right now that I've heard enough of. He told me today he wants to try staring into each other's eyes for four minutes and then each of us telling the other their 100% truth, where they are, how they feel, what they want, etc without the other person interrupting or reacting at all. I thought about it and said I didn't want to do that right now, unless he could keep AP out of the conversation. but I wasn't interested in hearing anything about her. He didn't say anything in response.

The heart speaks the intuitive, real truth, if only the head allows it. I think that perhaps your heart wants to let things play out... is H for real this time? Is this really it? And I think it is OK to let your heart lead for a bit. Your head will always be there; you are no pansy pushover; you too are analytical and probably of a scientific background. Your head will step in and save you when it needs to. This may go against most advice out there. So take it or leave it. And obviously, do what you need to do to save your own soul, whatever path that may be.

How did you know??? I do a scientific background (my kids like to say Mommy's a scientist!! and I'm like no, sorry. *was* a long time ago. Now I go to meetings.) I've been thinking on this a lot, the head vs the heart, ever since you posted it. And here is where I'm coming to-- in my head, I absolutely KNOW I'm going to be OK. I will get through this. I'll be the better for it. I can enjoy having my house to myself and decisions on my own and cutting H out of my life as much as possible (with my expensive sunglasses) and meeting someone new. I have zero doubts about that in my mind. I know some things will be absolutely horrible, like not having my kids with me every single night, and seeing H with AP IRL or her having any contact with the girls... that does still fill me with irrational and frightening rage, but I know I'll get over it. I don't feel like there is anything I can't do if I set my mind to it. (Also why I feel convinced we have a good shot at a strong M2.0 as he is the same way.)

And maybe that is why I'm resisting this somewhat, the totally moving on in my head. Because my heart and intuition *is* tugging me back, and saying maybe this was a relapse and not a collapse, this is the next big hurdle, why should I harden my heart now when I'll have plenty of time to do that if we go in that direction. I guess I don't totally see the need to do it protectively ahead of time. Does that make sense? I see how I *should* do it, but I don't really want to. i know if it comes to that I'll have friends and family to support me and I'll get through it. I always do. I'm just not totally ready to give up all hope right now on my H. And the children are still such a big part of it. I'm clinging onto hope that if there is a way to resolve this without them being hurt, that is the path I choose, even if it is longer and more difficult for me.

YOUR power lays in whether or not his best decision for himself is good enough for you. MAY HAS THE POWER. Remind yourself of this over and over and over again. You don't have to take him back. You can choose to take him back. Or not. MAY HAS THE POWER. (Disregard the kids in this instance... children will always be best when their primary model is at her best)

Doesn't quite feel that way yet but I'm working on it.

Can you both stay true to the truest of May's heart wishes AND not give a flying f*** what H decides in the end?

Maybe if I can continue to spin out my two paths in my head without committing to one--letting my heart still hope but releasing all my fears and anxieties about what might or might not happen... I can get to this place. I really want to. I dos still give somewhat of an F though. Baby steps.

Scout, Cardinal... thanks on the job. It's hard. I'll see what it all looks like when she sends me what she's thinking. It is really very flattering-- they're putting this job together for me -- but there also isn't really a rush as it isn't a position right now. I could probably string it out for awhile-- I asked her timing and she said she couldn't wait two years but she could wait. So maybe it could still be a possibility.

Cardinal, continuing to think on the trip. We're supposed to leave in a little over two weeks at this point. I'm thinking if things don't change (which I am desperately working on continuing to believe they won't, that pesky little hope keeps popping up as much as I shove her back down) then I'll look carefully at the itinerary and see what I want to do the most. Maybe he does the first couple weeks by himself and then takes the girls for one of the next two weeks and maybe I'll do the last week trip with the girls by myself. That way we have a month apart, we each have a fun week-long vacation with the girls. He may not be cool about the two weeks by himself, but we could also just cancel it. Too bad, so sad.

xoxo love you guys.

[AlisonUK]

May, you get to make this decision (regarding the trip) and I can't help but feel all this thinking and waiting you and your H are doing - him wanting you to make a decision for him, you not wanting to make a decision for yourself until you know more about him - with the trip, with your work, with your marriage itself, is just another layer of denial.

Your H has done nothing about removing his mistress from his life decisively and strongly and committing to YOU as his wife, not the family package with children or the house or just 'not being the bad guy'. That is really not going to change in two weeks and even if he did it tomorrow, you'd be insane to believe him. So make your decision - whatever it is - on the FACT that your H is a lying cheater and either doesn't know what he wants and hasn't done in years, or isn't willing to tell the truth about what he wants as he thinks you might make life uncomfortable for him if he does.

Make your decisions about your career, your marriage and your holiday based on that.

Your decision might be 'I will wait a bit longer for this lying cheater to choose me' and 'I will move towards financial independence' and 'I will not go on the vacation and we will now be acting like cordial separated co-parents' or it might be something entirely different - you get to decide what that is. But I can't help but feel all the buck-passing and waiting that your H is inflicting on you - well, you are choosing it. There's literally nothing he can say or do or pull out of the bag in the next fortnight that is going to substantially change the truth about where you are in your marriage.

What other information do you need to make your decisions?

Edited to add: I guess what I am saying it, that I kind of agree with your H - the trip is an artificial deadline. Or at least it is if you inflict it on him rather than take it as one for yourself. He's very likely to tell you whatever you want to hear about ending it with his mistress so he can have what he wants - a happy family on the trip. And that means nothing, because as you know he will lie and cheat to get to have all of what he wants. A deadline is not artificial if you set it for yourself and you can make your decision today, tomorrow, in two years time or just the very second you are tired of the status quo.

[Pommy99]

May, I havent been posting lately but I have been following your thread daily and wanted you to know I've been thinking about you so much.

I hate the fact that H is still in his own perpetual state of limbo and whilst you have that glimmer of hope within you, and will not make his decisions for him, you remain in a perpetual state of limbo as well. I dont have any worldly advice - you've had so much great advice already and your head is fully screwed on. I've been thinking about your a-hole H and see someone very, very lost. I think I actually believe that deep-down he does not want a R with AP, (regardless of whether he's binned her off or not at this stage). I'm wondering if you - like me - have witnessed such deep and significant transformations within ourselves that we find it hard to let go of someone if we believe that they too might experience that inner transformation/lightbulb moment.

Something needs to break the cycle May - I know you know that. What is going to be the catalyst for real change? Do you think you have a really good opportunity here, on a plate? If H takes the kiddos away and you choose not to go, he gets to realise that the fantasy S/D does not and cannot exist. He may also realise that it is not so bad. That may be enough for him to reach a conclusion. I know this sounds like it is all about H, and perhaps it is, because you know that you wont pull that trigger and he has to be the one to make the decision. But if there is no change then the limbo will continue. Perhaps you need to decide that you will not go, no conditions, no boundaries, just "I dont want to go and nothing you can say at this time will change my mind". (Is there actually anything he could say or do right now that would make you feel loved/secure?) You are empowering yourself by simply removing yourself from the trip. Otherwise I see a very painful limbo holiday - you will sleep in the same bed and act like mum and dad for the kids, but it will be fake, and that will hurt you.

Sending hugs May x

p.s I too have never been able to refer to EAP by name, only "your friend" or "that woman"!

[SteveLW]

p.s I too have never been able to refer to EAP by name, only "your friend" or "that woman"!

Be careful with this thinking. While we like to focus our anger on the OP, your problem isn't with her. It is with him. I found using my W's EAP name was freeing to me. It made me realize that this person didn't care about me and I didn't are about them. Therefore there was nothing personal there. It was them wanting to be with my W. And my W is where the issue was for opening that door even if just a crack.