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background: BD 9/2019, H Moved out 10/2019 (no idea where he is living), 3 children. H: MLC & alcoholism

Originally Posted by may22

On the OW... do you think this is where he's been living? I was skimming through your earlier posts on this thread and it has always seemed a little weird that he left all his clothes and stuff at your place, and never wanted to bring the kids over there.


I don't know, and I don't care to know really. He's moved some more clothes away but a good 90% of his stuff is still here. Not telling me where he lives has become a great example of how crazy this all is.

Originally Posted by may22
On D-- where are you with the financial piece? I recall you saying earlier that you are better off not D-ed financially, at least for now.

well, because we are not currently in the US our situation is more complicated. Steve, if we were in the US, I think I will be able to decide on filing much quicker than now. We currently have separate accounts here, and I have access to his, but he doesn't have access to mine. To have a good D outcome here I will have to hope that he will be reasonable and we can agree on the terms for finance. because if it goes to court then I'd pretty much get nothing. Financially it is better for me to not D because he makes way more than I do and I am still entitled to 50% of that. But this year we are definitely bleeding out a lot of income because he's paying for rent somewhere. his expense is not crazy high but it's up. I have stopped contributing money to the children's 529 and our join investment account because I don't know what the heck is gonna happen. Anyway, so money is definitely what's holding me back too, but I also keep questioning if I am selling my soul to stay in a M for financial security. I have been hustling and trying to establish my own income. As of right now I feel like I can count on him on child support, so the best scenario of 30% child support would def be okay for me, I will just have to learn to adjust my spending. no botox! lol! I am well aware that I am choosing the easy path (not having to worry about money) over doing the right thing (moving on and cutting ties).

Originally Posted by may22
On PA = D, or difficulty admitting what a POS your H is... i have been thinking about this and wondering if that same cognitive dissonance comes into play for us that the WAH is experiencing-- he has to believe that this is true love, or whatever, to justify his actions, plus his W is so terrible, you were never really in love, etc. Whereas I think that maybe something the LBWs are experiencing (and maybe this is a motherhood thing that dads just don't get in the same way) in that we are trained to always put our children first. So PA = D is not so simple anymore when you bring children into the mix, and they most likely will be better off in an R than a D situation. So in order to have this all make sense in our heads, we also have to believe that the M is salvagable, that your H is a flawed human being who has made some devastating mistakes rather than a selfish cheating narcissistic liar who has blown up your life and the lives of your children for his own selfish reasons. I'm not sure that this makes much sense... just is where my head is these days.


I really don't put that much thought into what H is experiencing. I don't care if he thinks it's true love or a one night stand. I don't care if he thinks he was never in love or I am terrible. The fact is that he walked away. OW or not he left his family. I recognized that he is a flawed person. But he is also a selfish cheating liar. May, this might be where we are different, I feel like by seeing the good in your H, your are brushing his bad deeds aside. They coexist. I have a lot of compassion for my H because I know he is so broken inside. But I will not excuse his behavior because he is broken. That is why boundaries are important because ultimately I am responsible for me (and my kids). I need to protect myself. H needs to figure himself out. But I will not keep hanging around and be the collateral damage on his journey of self discovery. And as of right now, I don't think R is better than D for my kids.

Originally Posted by Steve85
I find it so strange how LBSs are so willing to let go of their core values and deal-breakers once the WAS has crossed that line.


I think this is different for everybody. Some people believe that M is salvageable and will hold out hope even if the spouse crosses that line. It's one thing for someone to say AP is a deal breaker before encountering the situation, it's another to actually be in that situation and question whether it is really a deal breaker. There are so many factors. Didn't vets say that affairs is usually manifestation of M problems, but not the cause? If people believe that they can overcome the M problems, it makes sense to hold on to the hope that the affair, the symptom, would go away.

I'm not one of those people though. H is a lying cheater. I know. I think I just need to take some time to strategize. I think to me the biggest hurdle is not the money. It's my nature of avoiding conflict. For some reason I suspect that if I send him D papers, he's not going to happily oblige (having a visiting schedule...money...etc). I have to work up the courage to enter the storm.


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Wooba, take how ever much time you need and don't just look at it as the easy way. It's not. At least not when you're not in denial about what's happening. Knowing the extent to which he's a dbag and biding your time while you balance your books and figure out your path forward isn't, not doing the right thing. The right this is what ever is best for you and your kids. You are in such a healthy place emotionally. You're learning how to navigate the single mom life with grace. You are physically and financial separated. And if you aren't feeling pursing the D right now, so be it. You have accepted your marriage is over. You've accepted that you need to move on with your life. You've accepted that H is a walking dumpster fire. You're not in denial. You're not lying to yourself or your kids about where any of this is going by not filing tomorrow. If you're worried about the money and don't want the stress of a D while starting your new business it is totally ok to do nothing. You are self aware. You are self reliant. You are making moves. If in this one aspect you do nothing for a little while, oh well. Choosing to do nothing is doing something. Honestly in your position I'd drag it out as long as I could while I worked on that new life until it was stable on paper or I felt it was stable enough to go for the D. H doesn't seem in that much of a hurry. Take advantage of it. But that's just me. You gotta do you. I just wanted you to know the way I see it waiting isn't the wrong thing. Even if one of your motivators is being conflict avoidant. The right thing is what you feel is right for you right now.

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Love your mindset, wooba!


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Thank you wayfarer and scout. Wayfarer- thank you for showing me another way to view this.

Well, H moved the ball a bit by emailing me a doc about co-parenting arrangements. Upon receiving it, I saw the door opened. The door for me to walk out. I felt anxious, but relieved. Anyways, I don’t want to go into the detail too much as I am still digesting it myself. Will say more about it later possibly.

Today he came over to see the kids and initiated a talk regarding the kids and money. I was at ease, just listening and validating. And then I zoned out for a few seconds and was just looking at him...his avoidant eyes, the wear on his face...this man whom I love/loved. I just wanted to ask him, “are you okay?”

Well I didn't, instead a couple tears rolled down my face. I let it happen. We kept the conversation going still. In the end I asked if he wants to start taking some more of his stuff away. He didn’t give an answer but just mentioned that he realized that he has a lot of clothes, and noted a few big items that will be difficult to move.

Overall I am grateful that H is acting decent so far. Although I still see a tiny bit of manipulation from his words wanting to draw fear from me (intentionally or not) I am finally at a good place to be bulletproofed from that.

When I envisioned 50/50 visitation before I’ve already tried really hard to let go of my desire of having a lot of time with the kids. Sooner or later I’d have to let go right? It is the hardest thing for me to come to terms with, yet I know having time away from them would be helpful for me to GAL and having my own independence. To find ME again.

Just trying to say positive through this whole ordeal...


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All of this^^^^ that's growing though the pain. You're amazing. I hope you know that.

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wooba, your continued grace, strength, and compassion always inspires me, makes me believe I can get to this bulletproofed place too. Bulletproofed from any manipulation or fear, yes, but not unfeeling. (((wooba)))


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well, it seems like things are going to take a turn for the worst.

vets have called it, again - "Divorce while the WAS is full of guilt and feeling generous!!"

January - H: "You can take it all", "I will give you the house"

May - H: "30% child support, I'd like the house, and you can take other accounts equivalent in value."

Now - H: "30% is based on our state, which has no bearing here in this country." , cancelled my credit card, stopped me from accessing his account without notification and written agreement.

Now he is basically blaming me everything for the way things have unfolded. I did ABC....so he had to do XYZ. Yup, again textbook behavior. He has to make me the villain. I can see him blaming me for even taking a breath.

UGH!! This year we're bleeding out so much money that we barely saved anything. A pause on retirement savings....college savings for the children.....everything. I feel very frustrated that this stress is overflowing onto my parents as well. Now they have to worry about whether they can help support me financially in the worst case scenario.

I really just wanted to D and be done with it. But since we are in no man's land (not on US soil), I have very little protection, I might have to rethink my strategy. I'm consulting my L again this week.

I am just shaking my head here. I was thinking that everything seems too non-confrontational and cordial to be true. Now the ugliness is coming out.

I'm not going to respond to his accusations and passive aggressive remarks in his email. There's a part of me that cannot believe that this is happening....and another part of me totally saw this coming.

Wish me luck.....

may - I thought about you today. Your H also seems to be acting friendly and being a good father and all that - might be a good time to D now while he is confused and feeling extremely guilty, than to wait until he decided to act differently. Not that he will, but there is always a possibility. just my 2 cents.


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Hi Wooba,

I'm so sorry this is happening. But if IIRC there have been times in the past where he's flashed this ugly side (isn't he an attorney? I seem to remember some points where he was saying things about how he knew the law and you didn't, or something?) I might recommend just not responding for a bit and yes, once you do, ignoring the ridiculous parts. And absolutely, consult your L to make sure you're as protected as possible. Are you planning to live abroad forever? Is there no way you can file in your home state?

I've been thinking the same thing about the leverage I have in moving now on D vs later. However, I also think that at least with my H, the likelihood (especially if I was at all contentious, got Ls involved, etc) is that the "deal" we've been talking about where I get the house and primary physical custody, was always too good to be true and it wouldn't end up that way once we got down to brass tacks. That is one of the reasons i've been thinking about a more informal post-nup to get things in writing now. My biggest thing is time with the kids, but I also know that custody arrangements can be altered at any time, so even if he is OK with this arrangement now, it is likely to change in the future. And I honestly can't imagine him being OK with less time with the kids.

You are incredibly strong, you know. This is a blip and you'll get through it. Don't let his swings affect you.


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Dear wooba. I'm so sorry to hear that your H has decided to change his attitude, at least for the moment. And cancel your credit card and remove access to his account without a discussion. Ugh. I know how you feel about adding to your parents' stress as well. It seems he might be desperate to have some control over something, and as you counseled me once, money can give him that sense of power. It's good that you have the L consult scheduled--focus on that, which will hopefully reveal some options for you.

Pretty sure I missed the boat on my H feeling guilty, which was pretty much only for a week or two after BD if that, though even then he felt entitled to the house. I try not to worry about what the future holds with that or imagine looking back and wishing he would have acted quickly on the D, because, again, he chooses his behavior, and that is true of your H too. So try not to spend too much time thinking about the past.

Like may, I was thinking your H has tended to last out at times and act the bully and then settle down again for a bit. This may be the case again. You are cool and calm in response. What is that Jack_Three_Beans sticky in MLC land? The MLCer is going to swing around, but you are not going to be there to get hit. You've already got that down. ((wooba))


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I really do forgive and forget sometimes, if I did not journal I would have forgotten all about the times H’s ugliness reared its head.

May- with our M in pieces, it would be better for me to stay abroad until the kids finish hs. My family is here to help. And expenses are significantly lower. If I have to move back to get a good settlement.....that could be an option but the logistics would be difficult for the kids and myself. But I’m not ruling it out. To file in my home state I’d have to move back and stay for at least 6 months to reestablish residency.

I was reading about WASes “hitting rock bottom” over in the big d forum. It got me thinking that I have been secretly wishing that there would be one day my H would hit rock bottom and come back from alien land. But maybe he did not turn into an alien, this is the way he truly is. Have I been seeing him through rose-colored glasses all these years? Out of love? I thought he was loving, responsible, considerate, and kind. Do people fundamentally change? I am really sad right now. The fog may never lift or there was never even a fog. I may never understand why he became the man he is today.


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Hey wooba,

It is OK to be sad. You've been so incredibly strong through all of this, it probably is hard to have those emotions bubbling back up... but you've got this. It is okay to grieve what you had and who your H was. Don't let his problems erase your good memories of what you had together in the past.

I think your H is very lost and confused and depressed and the alcoholism exacerbates all of that. Hopefully, you can get back to a place where it doesn't matter why he is behaving how he is, or if he was like this before, or will change back at some point... the fact that he is, now, and it isn't acceptable to you, and that is all you really need to know. (Go back and read your own posts from last week!)

Take some space, hug your kids, do something nice with them or just for yourself.

Also, good that your parents are there too... no need to rush into anything, anyway, until you talk to your L.

xoxo M


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Oh Wooba.

Originally Posted by wooba
I was reading about WASes “hitting rock bottom” over in the big d forum. It got me thinking that I have been secretly wishing that there would be one day my H would hit rock bottom and come back from alien land. But maybe he did not turn into an alien, this is the way he truly is. Have I been seeing him through rose-colored glasses all these years? Out of love? I thought he was loving, responsible, considerate, and kind. Do people fundamentally change? I am really sad right now. The fog may never lift or there was never even a fog. I may never understand why he became the man he is today.


I have been having the exact same thoughts about my H lately. My IC really pushed me to ask myself if maybe my H has been this way all along and my rose-colored glasses and emotional enabling made me view him as 'better' than he really was. I have cried and cried since that session. IC may be right. But then again, I am not so sure. I have such strong evidence of the loving, responsible, considerate and kind H of the past decade and a half. Which then leads me to believe that yes, maybe people really do change. And that makes me more sad, to think that H's changes (which I feel like I have supported and facilitated over the years) have made him grow away from me. I am a launching pad, destroyed in the lift-off. Oh, my heart.

All this to say, you are not alone. I am sad too. And I likely will be in your shoes in a few months. And I don't think I will ever understand why my H is the way he is today.

Hugs Wooba.

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Sage, wooba

I’m brand new to the whole thing but wanted to jump in here. Been having these same thoughts about my WW. Am I waiting for her to snap out of this fog or was the fog who she was pretending to be with me and this is who she really was the whole time. Have I been blind to all this because of how much I love her or is the woman I know still in there some where. Tough question to even ask ourselves and probably impossible to find an answer right now. Perhaps time will tell.

Just wanted to offer another affirmation that you’re not alone at all on the confusion and the sadness. I didn’t think there was anyway anyone could understand how deep this was hurting till I found DR and this site. You’re deffinitley not alone.

Hope you guys are doing okay and hanging in there.

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I am trying to coach myself to be okay with feeling sad. I don't know if it's working at the moment. Nothing but hugs and love your way, wooba.


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thanks everyone for replying.

I inadvertently got on the roller coaster ride again lately, so I've been working through my feelings and trying to keep my focus.

I haven't responded to H's last email. He said that I don't need to worry about child support because I have taken enough funds from his account (which is true...I did it anticipating that he would cut me off out of nowhere - which thebn really happened). and then told me to let him know how much I need.

Few days later after sending me that email, he came over and brought me some food as usual. He showed it to me and it was my favorite pasta salad. I burst out in tears.

And then I spent way more time than I should thinking about why the heck he would do that. Did he feel guilty for writing me a mean email? Did he feel guilty for cutting me off? Does this mean he's softened?

meanwhile when I read may's thread and what scout's said about the mindf*ck channels, I wonder if that also applies to my H. rage, charm, and self-pity. I feel like I can see H's behavior following that pattern. Who is my H? Do I really know the real him? Or did I really have my blinders on the whole time? Was I a victim of emotional abuse? I had these questions running around in my mind but I couldn't arrive at a clear answer.

All I remembered was the vets said, "when you are still confused about your WAS, that means they are not back yet." So I stopped thinking about his "making my favorite pasta salad" gesture and decided to go back to my instinct - nothing's changed.

I feel embarrassed (to myself) that I still went through that cycle. I took his gesture to the heart and interpret it to be something entirely out of its own realm.

What is real? What is true? What's real is the love my children and I have for each other. What's true is our actions will match our words (most of the time). We got each other's backs in highs and in lows. We do not desert each other when things get difficult......


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That dang pasta salad. You are allowed to be vulnerable sometimes, to get on and back off the rollercoaster. I get frustrated with myself when I go through a similar cycle, but I am telling you what I should tell myself, which is don't be embarrassed; just let yourself be. I have the same questions you do. I have not come up with any clear answers. I don't know how helpful it is to ask them, but they do seem to be very human, natural questions when things end up this way.

Originally Posted by wooba
What is real? What is true? What's real is the love my children and I have for each other. What's true is our actions will match our words (most of the time). We got each other's backs in highs and in lows. We do not desert each other when things get difficult......


This is lovely. It is real and true. I wonder if the love you had/the version of H from before can also be real and true, even if it/he is now changed. Maybe it was also real and true, and the questions we (now I'm including myself too) are asking ourselves are beside the point now.

Take care of yourself during this tender time, wooba.


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All I have to add is, in the last year my biggest lesson learned is that feelings will settle. (Cardinal- and unanswered questions too...they will fade in and out)

Anger, hopefulness, anxiety, sadness.

It takes practice. It takes accountability. Believe in your core values.

Surround yourself with good people. Good people will build you up. I am very thankful for my family and friends.


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I'm just here to let you know I'm always checking in. I don't have much to say right now. You're in a precarious place. Being done, but still feeling heart broken is a weird space. You are grieving all that could've been vs actual loss. And it's totally ok to be fine one minute, FU the next and immediately following a sobbing mess. But I think we both know what you're heart and head has decided here. He will do things for the rest of the kids' lives that will break you a little bit. Soften you a little bit. Steel you a little bit. The problem that isn't spoken enough around here isn't an inability to detach. It's reconciling knowing you can't love some one any more with knowing how much you used to love them. Every once in a while D17's dad will pop up and want to chat and he brings up and inside joke or a memory from when D17 was small. And all that was, is there for just two seconds and my heart breaks a little that my baby couldn't have these parents 24/7. She got the screaming, crying, ripping doors off the hinge,s holes punched in walls, messy, young parents who were sooooo horrible for each other. When D17 does something that gets recognition or a milestone he takes my hand and whispers in my ear, you did that. And every time I have to fight back the tears. I'd never, never in a million years would take that man back or wish I hadn't left, but in those few and far between moments I feel joy, and pain, and the love I have for him as the father of my child. You are welcome to all of your feelings my dear. Even ones that don't pass quickly, and as you go forward here some might not.
Thinking of you often xoxoxoxoxo

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Originally Posted by wayfarer
It's reconciling knowing you can't love some one any more with knowing how much you used to love them.

This feels like the thing I’ve been scared of that I haven’t been able to put my finger on. This is part of the grief that feels bottomless right now, I think, because it seems like something that will never 100% go away, even if it returns for only two seconds. This is the part that “moving on” doesn’t quite cover. Who knows, I’ve never had to go through something like this, so I don’t know what I’m talking about, but with D moving forward and AP already in the picture, this is where I am right now—grieving that, at least for right now, I can’t love him. Not in the same way.

Wooba, I don’t mean to hijack your thread! It feels to me that you have been grieving a little in this new stage with your H, but you seem much further along than I am in acceptance and in feeling strong in yourself. I think it’s been hard for me to make the progress I would have liked to make while living with him. But you give me hope that I am on my way to a stronger place, even if my road has been/is longer to get there.


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Wayfarer, thank you for sharing that. I can see those little heartbreaks for me as well. This past weekend H spent the most time here with the boys (which means over two hours) since god knows when, when I came back he was cooking in the kitchen. I helped him a bit here and there, we made friendly small talk throughout. It was nice, and I almost wanted to give him a hug. Not a “I love you I want to reconcile” type of hug, but one of those hugs that are given when there’s either too much or nothing left to be said.

The following day he was here as well (I had prior engagements scheduled), and he brought boxes to pack and move out. So I pulled him aside and asked if he could talk to the kids about him packing and moving. Because I know that it would still be a big deal to them to physically see that happening, even though he has already not been living with us for months. I was hoping H would say something like “I will still be here for you, I’m not going anywhere far etc etc”. When I brought that up, H’s defensive side came out again and started blaming me for everything.

H: “I don’t see the point of me talking to them. You’ve already told them everything anyway.” (Again going back to everything that he accuses me of doing)
Me: “I didn’t tell them about divorce. You did. Remember that day in the car? (I then described the chain of events from that day to him)”
H: said something basically meaning I made it up. Didn’t happen that way.
I: Okay. I don’t want to argue about this again. I was just suggesting you could say something to them, it’s ok if you don’t.
H: blah blah blah “you were the one who told me to move out!!!”

Ugh. Lesson learned. He can do easy, non-threatening, logistic-related, surface conversations. But the minute I remotely try to get in there and discuss something of substance, the quills are up and ready to stick anyone getting close. I guess I have to scratch discussing the children’s mental health off the list of things we can talk about. Now he is the candy/junk food/fun times dad when he’s here with the kids. He was the one that ALWAYS complained about his parents giving the kids too much junk food.

Moving on.....


Cardinal- for me it’s more realizing that I should no longer love someone who is not willing to move heaven and earth for me. Therefore in the foreseeable future, I for sure will not love him as much as I did.

”Someone can be madly in love with you and still not be ready. They can love you in a way you have never been loved and still not join you on the bridge. And whatever their reasons you must leave. Because you never ever have to inspire anyone to meet you on the bridge. You never ever have to convince someone to do the work to be ready. There is more extraordinary love, more love that you have never seen, out here in this wide and wild universe. And there is the love that will be ready.”

- Nayyirah Waheed


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Hi Wooba,

Thinking of you.

I'm sorry he is being such a duck about the children. That is wrong and f-ed up. I know you know that, and I know you'll $uck it up and be the bigger person so that your kids have you to count on and talk to about their feelings. I guess if I try to sit in his position, it is clear that he's really screwed up right now, and it just boils up and over when he gets the slightest poke of reality.

Do you feel that you've gotten back off the roller coaster? I'm in an anxious slash resigned place right now. It feels weird and sad. My IC assigned me to do one thing just for me, to soothe myself, every day. Being present with the children doesn't count. I bought some expensive tiny shampoos and hair masks and moisturizers and took a bath. Took D8 out to dinner just the two of us and had nice wine and a splurgy meal. Didn't pick up the house when I got home even though it is a total wreck, had another glass of wine and downloaded a candy novel (thriller). I don't know if any of that would be things you would do for yourself but hoping you are doing some things just for you that can take your mind off of everything else.

xx M


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I’m off the roller coaster. But I still feel anxious because of the finances. What if he really does not give me a dime? If we were back in the states I would file for D in a heartbeat....so I’m trying to not think too much ahead or overwhelm myself with what ifs. So that’s where I’ve been feeling stuck. Like I am done with our M, but I can’t pull the trigger here because it’s not the smart move financially. Would I really have to fly somewhere in the US to establish residency first to file for D??? Ugh.

One good thing that came out of this is my new venture with a friend. Getting my brain back to work has been fun. I’m feeling the stress as a working single mom of three children, but so far it’s a good kind of stress, not the debilitating kind. Recently many people in my life has approached me about going to church, so I might try that soon too lol.


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H sent me another email regarding finances, similar to the one he wrote me few weeks ago when he decided to cut off the funds.

I was shaking my head while reading it. At some parts I even wanted to laugh.

One example was that he had to make a note of him taking the kids to the mall to buy some gear (the first time in this whole year)....”I note that I took the boys out last weekend to buy shoes and backpacks and it costed me over $200 dollars..” seriously? We’re going there? Wtf is this pettiness??

There’s no point to reason with someone like this. Again, you can’t make someone see if they’re choosing to be blind.

I know H has always enjoyed being in control. I could sense he’s desperately trying to hang on to whatever he could use to feel like he could control me. I had a flashback today to one time few years ago when we had a big fight. D was mentioned by him, and at the time I was so distraught I wanted to tell my parents about it. H then warned me if I tell others about our private R problems, there would be no turning back (threatening with D). Now I’m seeing that point in life as totally f’ed up. H used my fear to keep me in check. Another time he told me that if we separate, he would no longer care about the children, because his love for the children rested on his love for me. How messed up is that?? I remember hearing that and feeling afraid for my children. He knew. He knew he could get to me more effectively through the kids.

It’s weird looking back and seeing all these huge red flags, yet at the time when it happened I had no clue. It’s also conflicting to know that I did have some good times with this man who loved me deeply, yet it’s the kind of love with a sick twist. It’s almost like Jekyll and Hyde. One side of him seemed completely selfless, and the other side is utterly selfish.

Well, enough about him. I still plan to respond with compassion and kindness in mind. Just because he is acting like an a$$ does not mean I need to stoop to his level. I need to elevate myself.....rise above this...because I can.


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Hi Wooba,

I want to note how far you've come (back) in the short time between the two emails... the first sparked anxiety and now you can LOL at his pettiness.

Stay strong. Let him rage and count pennies and try to control you. When I think of the lighthouse imagery, I actually don't usually think about the actual light shining. I think about the base of the lighthouse, on a rocky cliff, and the waves trying to beat away at the rocks and just washing away. You are strong and unaffected and taking steps in the right direction for you and your kids. You can be kind and compassionate when you respond, but be sure you keep *seeing* what is going on.

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Another time he told me that if we separate, he would no longer care about the children, because his love for the children rested on his love for me. How messed up is that??

That is really, really messed up. I'm so sorry. If I were you, I might find a couple examples of totally unacceptable things he's said or done that you think came from the heart-- not out of transient anger or whatever-- and hold onto those to remember when you need to. Because he will probably come by in a day or three and bring pasta salad and be extra nice to the kids and you just might be tempted to get back on that roller coaster if you don't keep your resolve up.

Do you see a fair path forward with the finances while remaining Med? And I'm glad your business is going well-- that is awesome!


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Rolling through this $h!tshow with nothing but grace and class, my dear. You are doing so well rising above. Thinking of you often.
xoxoxoxo

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Hi Wooba,

I am so sorry that your H continues to be a disappointment, but good for you for getting off the rollercoaster. I know how easy it is to be tempted/cajoled into jumping back on that ride, so I have some questions for you. Whether or not you choose to reply and write out the answers here is completely up to you, but these are the things I am asking myself in a similar situation with my H:

How does H make you feel? Are you your best self around him? Do his actions affect your ability to be the best parent you can be right now? Does your interactions with him serve you or the kids? Is there enough 'pasta' in the world right now to fix the current state of affairs?

I read somewhere on this forum about someone who kept a log (maybe it was Scout) of all the positive and negative interactions/feelings she had with her H and when the list got so out of balance, she was able to use it to thrust herself into a different way of looking and feeling towards her H.

When we are vulnerable, we tend to find meaning in those minuscule interactions that contribute to our 'my side bias' and/or hope. What will it take for you to lose all hope and move on in the direction of your mighty life ahead? I get the sense (takes one to see one) that your H feels justified in his actions towards you because he thinks he has you exactly where he wants you. What can you do to shift that paradigm? You have taken some great leaps (starting your own business!!). What else will serve you in this process? Do you want to move back to the US so you can file for D and get the financial security you deserve? Or are you willing to settle for a less certain financial future for the sake of continuity for the children?

I think you are doing great, BTW. I couldn't write the statement you did about being above it all and not stooping to H's level. I am not there yet, but love to witness someone else ahead of me.

(((Wooba)))

xx
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may - that's something I'm always trying to keep in mind....I want to be kind and compassionate but operate it within my boundaries. I think that's when some residual anger can be good, which then can be used to propel myself into making the tough but right choices.

Originally Posted by Sage4
How does H make you feel? Are you your best self around him? Do his actions affect your ability to be the best parent you can be right now? Does your interactions with him serve you or the kids? Is there enough 'pasta' in the world right now to fix the current state of affairs?

lol! I love how the pasta keeps getting mentioned. I know, it really threw me off. Since we don't see each other much at all right now, when we do see each other my goal is to keep it civil and friendly for the sake of children.

Originally Posted by Sage4
When we are vulnerable, we tend to find meaning in those minuscule interactions that contribute to our 'my side bias' and/or hope. What will it take for you to lose all hope and move on in the direction of your mighty life ahead?..... Do you want to move back to the US so you can file for D and get the financial security you deserve? Or are you willing to settle for a less certain financial future for the sake of continuity for the children?


The hardest part has been to come to terms with the fact that the current H is a different person. I know in this forum we talk about hope and expectations often and how those two affect us LBSes. I'm not shutting that door on hope. The old him is in there somewhere I'm sure. My love for him is still in me also, somewhere. Our history and feelings for each other cannot be erased that easily. However, I have to be aware to not let the little gestures cripple me. Because it's the big ones that count. The actions and behaviors that clearly communicate to me that he is here, he is invested. Not "I made you your favorite pasta" or "I bought you some chocolates". You are right, those interactions are minuscule. They are nice, but I am worth a lot more than the little gestures. So my weakness lies in that I am forgiving by nature, so those little things do touch me. Not that I would mistaken those as signs of his return.

With the finances - honestly with the whole covid thing, I would not want to move back to the US right now. So I'm trying to see what my options are for staying put. Few days ago H actually transferred the funds I requested of him for this month.


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You are always so clear-headed, wooba! This makes so much sense:

Originally Posted by wooba
The hardest part has been to come to terms with the fact that the current H is a different person. I know in this forum we talk about hope and expectations often and how those two affect us LBSes. I'm not shutting that door on hope. The old him is in there somewhere I'm sure. My love for him is still in me also, somewhere. Our history and feelings for each other cannot be erased that easily.


It feels to me like you are writing from a place of calm and distance, as in the ability to look objectively at your situation. Do you think it helps that you have had physical distance from your H? This has also been the hardest part for me. I feel like I have shut my own door, but if I were feeling more objective I think I would say the same thing—that my love for him is probably also still in me, somewhere, that the old him is still in there somewhere. My H was just very convincing that old H is gone, old H was a lie. But, I ask myself now from a distance, if my own feelings are mutable, why take what he says as objective fact rather than emotionally-driven, well, spewing?

I totally get why you’re not in a hurry to return to the states with COVID so out of control. I absolutely believe you will be both kind and compassionate and firm in your boundaries as you move forward. I will check in here often to remind myself what that looks like. smile


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hi all,

Just wanted to chime in to show my admiration for all of you posting on this thread. Many of you seem to be in that place where you can abstract yourselves from the situation that is happening, seeing it objectively and with better perspective.

Originally Posted by wooba

The hardest part has been to come to terms with the fact that the current H is a different person. I know in this forum we talk about hope and expectations often and how those two affect us LBSes. I'm not shutting that door on hope. The old him is in there somewhere I'm sure. My love for him is still in me also, somewhere. Our history and feelings for each other cannot be erased that easily.

I have read with interest about the thoughts on the man/woman we married is still in there and the love for him/her is well sheltered. I think this same thought has hurt me a lot in the sense of creating false expectations and the way I have approached my WAW. It seems to be an honorable feeling but yet it contradicts the lessons Sandi has tried to push in my head that she is a different person and my past W is "dead". what are your thoughts on this?

As per the pettiness with financial issues I have experienced very similar things. Yet when I sat down with my L and told her the story about the house we are buying and our S, she mentioned all of that had to be included in the legal agreement. This led my W to feel it was me one who made money a big deal. Isn't is a contradiction? in the personal and spiritual side you want to raise above the wayward behavior but on the legal side you need to make a stand and protect yourself from this mess. Am I making sense? these are the things that I really struggle to process in terms of how I should behave in the situation I am.

Sorry I did not mean to bring up my sitch, just had some thoughts I wanted to share after reading your posts.I send hugs to all.


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All I can add to this is I certainly don't recognise the woman I married in my WW and that is a hard thing to deal with.

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I find it easier to deal with when my H is an alien. When bits of the old him (the good parts) are showing, I have to be guarded against that.

NC is very helpful. I am still working on trying to put H out of my mind. Some mental breaks from H would be good. I still inevitably think about my sitch here and there throughout the day. Not gonna give myself a hard time about it though.


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I am really tired of these back and forth emails with my H. In every email he’s sent me, he’s included some kind of accusations of my failing in one thing or another which are not true. Ex: I told the kids we’re divorcing! I was supposed to take care of my in-laws long term care account! I didn’t give him our account login info!

Other than all that, he’s also stated that he does not want to give me the child support that I’m entitled to under state law (again we are overseas), and claimed that he wouldn’t know how I’d be using that fund and I could be using it for myself than for the children. (Seriously !?!)

I would like to just ignore him, but I do have the disadvantage of actually needing his financial help in the long run. If I take him to court here, under the foreign laws here I’d be getting only 1/3 of what I’d be entitled to in the U.S.

So do I keep playing this game with him??

I’m thinking about setting my boundary in my next email: “if you keep making false accusations, I will no longer engage in this conversation about divorce.” He can’t actually divorce me here if I’ve done nothing wrong. I just still have to ask him for money. Ugh. I find these back and forth emails are not really moving us ahead in divorce negotiations because he’s always putting false claims in there to justify his arguments.

I want to be done. But the logistics are tying my hands.


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So if he can't file D.... and you don't want to file D currently but need money then you may have to just suck it up???

What about just stating - well it must be frustrating trying to do things when you feel I've kept information from you... I mean you can apologize for how he feels without apologizing for any specific action. This may very well take the bite out him ---- or simply saying "I hear you"... would probably stop him in his tracks because he is expecting blow back to his slander.

In your situation you may just have to concentrate on one positive moment at a time so your financial needs get met.

What are your other choices???

You will need to put your financial needs at the forefront ---- write down a list of what you need and costs. Is he paying for your housing? Utilities? How much are you expecting?

I think you can prepare an email on what you are needing financially but avoid any ultimatums for sure. If he is nasty.... do not reply... <<< thats your boundary... it doesn't need to be stated.

If he refuses financial support you may need to think what your long term goals are --- in this country or at home.

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The most important lesson I learned from my divorce process was to never validate abuse. However, when negotiating a settlement, validation can be a useful tactic to get what you want, need, or are entitled to get. You are in a tough spot and playing nice may be to your advantage. Be careful about validating these accusations in writing, though - he may be setting you up to fail if it goes to court.

Does he have an L? If not, you could put a bit of fear into him with a pleasant but firm email. "This is the settlement I am asking for... Here is a spreadsheet detailing the finances. I am confident this represents a fair settlement based on the duration of the marriage, childcare arrangements, asset division etc. If you disagree, I'm happy to seek legal advice in our home state to ensure a fair settlement as per our state law."

No idea if that's possible in your situation. You are in a tough spot! But there is peace on the other side of this.


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Originally Posted by KitCat
In your situation you may just have to concentrate on one positive moment at a time so your financial needs get met.

That's kind of what I'm weighing. Getting minimal support but with freedom vs continuing to appease him for financial reasons.

Originally Posted by scout12
The most important lesson I learned from my divorce process was to never validate abuse. However, when negotiating a settlement, validation can be a useful tactic to get what you want, need, or are entitled to get. You are in a tough spot and playing nice may be to your advantage. Be careful about validating these accusations in writing, though - he may be setting you up to fail if it goes to court.

Does he have an L? If not, you could put a bit of fear into him with a pleasant but firm email.

My H is a L himself. So I've been a L's wife long enough to know not to put things I don't want other people to know in writing. lol! So far I have just ignored his accusations and have not addressed them in the emails. I try to keep it very business like. So yeah, seek legal advice in our home state would not work in my current situation because we are not in the U.S. right now. My only bargaining chip is that he wants to divorce me, and he can't do it without my consent here in this country. Strangely I am hoping that he wants to divorce me bad enough to agree to my requests for child support.


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My only bargaining chip is that he wants to divorce me, and he can't do it without my consent here in this country.


This is an excellent bargaining chip!


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