Living with a WAS/MLC husband...who does not care

[BlueSea]

Starting a new thread..
First "And then it was over"
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2894136&page=1
Second "DB'ing while living in with a WAS/MLC husband"
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2896448&page=1

Background:

-I found out about my husbands affair on Feb 25th - Everything changed he went from a kind/nice husband to a mean/cruel/distant shadow of the man I once knew.
-Spent a few weeks where he was trying to convince me that he could have both of us, he could compartmentalize, it would work. She was the best friend he ever had.
-The next month, he made efforts (he said he stopped communicating with her), we were going on walks, talking - really getting along, good conversation - he is impressed at the changes I have made - and says he knows I have really have changed. He would say he loved me. He would say I had so many great qualities, as a person, as a friend. Then after a great Saturday night walking on the beach, Sunday a complete reversal - he was done - its over - he is going to leave - but he didn't.
-He says he truly believes I have made fundamental changes, and that things would be better between us, but he does not love me or have that 'emotional' connection any longer. He is leaving. For the time he is here, he will continue to consider us...but he is no longer trying.

He exercises obsessively every day, takes testosterone shots, human growth shots, minoxidil for his hair line - and dressing in concert T shirts like a 20 yr old. And talking to me in a cold tone with cold uncaring eyes. He does not seem to care even for the kids. He is immersed in his affair.

-He went back to seeing the OW, I didn't know, but I caught him sneaking out of the house at night. Then an awful state of open marriage - living under the same roof - while he is in an active EA/PA - staying out all night a couple times of week to be with the OW. But enjoying the family life during the day. It's an open marriage and its painful, and its right in my face.
- I finally threatened a 'decision' - this is when he cut it off with the OW. June 11th (Have not seen him go out at night, he says its over. I don't really know)
- Biggest change is he is now aware and nice to the kids, and trying hard to be their very best buddy at all costs
- He treats me poorly, is unkind and cruel - his pendulum has swung from nice guy to extreme jerk. I try to DB, but I know I am not. Just struggling. His moods are erratic, an MLC is much like a late life puberty.

[BlueSea]

Bluesea, please consult a L and protect yourself (and your kids) financially...Do you have a separate account which H has no access of?

Wooba - thank you! I did consult an L and if it does go to D, there will be a reckoning, a forensic accountant will go thru all the accounts with a fine tooth comb. H was 'gracious' enough to remark that he would be willing to pay me back... half. Don't get me started.

Know that the way H is treating you is NOT okay and you deserve nothing less than to be shown respect and kindness to say the least.

I have to say the above is really confusing to me....LH had said that I just need to eat my $hit sandwiches, so I thought that was what I should be doing. I totally get that - I mean, we landed here (partly) b/c of my crappy wife ways, so all those resentment bricks in his wall against me, I am responsible for... has he completely taken advantage of that and is grinding me into the ground... he definitely is, no doubt. I have some latitude for this, because I feel contrite about the role I played.... but there is a limit. And honestly, I know, deep down he has to go. He has gone over that limit and then manipulates me to reel me back in. I keep moving my own line in the sand. That is all on me.

I wonder if you and your kids could go stay somewhere else for a week or two, like with a relative or a friend? I think this will give you the space you need to start to relax and figure out what is going on without having him in your face all the time, and with the underlying current of fear that his super erratic and mean behavior is generating. I think you need this in order to be the strong and stable parent like Wooba says.

Hi May - I really don't...I don't have real life folks that know about this situation, and I just can not leave my kids here alone with him either. I would end up stressing more about not being there and what is going on, then focusing on next steps. I actually do have 1 person that knows about this, I asked her about her divorce and she was kind enough to step thru it all for me. I am going to her house tonight, she has an uncanny ability to center me. Without reading all this DB techniques, she was well versed on all of it. I had one talk with her and she got me to the mental point of addressing him about leaving (then poof he got rid of the OW). I hope tonight's visit will be just as productive!

Thank you for being there for me - we do have similar struggles with the H in the house. Though their attitudes towards us are quite different. Yours is chatty, mine could split rocks with his icy stares - and never says anything. They both are manipulative. Thanks for checking in... I do read your thread...there is so much good advice coming at you already, I don't chime in. I do care about you too!

[BlueSea]

Oh dear. This was a lot. I read through both threads and I have so many thoughts and questions. I apologize if this post is all over the place. Mostly, I am glad to see you have so much support here and some great posters. Their advice is gold, even if it can feel harsh at times. Every person that comes here is only posting because they have been in a similar sitch and wants to help, even if our delivery is different. So I am thinking about what I can add and I am not sure what else I can say, but I will certainly try. I also apologize in advanced if I am direct or offensive. I have been known to swing some rusty, nail-studded, 2by4s!

Swing away Bluwave! I am so appreciate you read my thread(s) and are dropping advice to me! Though there was no 2x4's at all. Next time, if you would come back a next time, please feel free to knock me up the side of the head...I think I need that.

First random question. I see in thread one, you changed your handle to Bluesea, which does resemble Bluwave, so I am of course curious as to why? :-))) hmmmmm .... Are we sisters from another mister? lol.

LOL! I went by Bluexxxxx, where xxxx was my husbands pet name for me. And since I thought we use the DB counselors, he might figure out where this board was and easily find me by that nickname - but of course he would not take the time to do that! lol!

But seriously, that was a hard read. Maybe I say/think that about most of the sitches here, but ouch. Man oh man, the further out I get from my own BD, the more I am able to read these stories objectively. It is almost surreal what we go through. Of course I see some parallels in my own sitch, but I also see some differences. My H also had an A, became an alien, and blew up our lives, but the thing is, he wasn't an A-hole. My H was mostly guilty, self-pitied and a giant wuss, and he would hide from me. Can I call your H an A-hole? Because it certainly reads that way. He is a big aggressive bully! Man I wish I could kick this guy in the nutz. I know that doesn't help, but his behavior is so outrageous it is almost hard to wrap my head around.

YES! he is a big bully for sure - and my pet nickname for him is a@@hole. Mine also has alot of self pity, I think that goes along with the narcissism. He is quite the prize, you can see why I totally want him back, right? Kidding aside, I am glad you say that because there is so much gaslighting going on over here, I wasnt sure if it was me or him! I actually rented that b/w movie to understand what that 'gaslighting' term meant - and yes, I am married to a man that tries to get me to question my own reality at every turn for his own benefit.

I am so glad to read the advice from LH, Steve, May and really all of them. I agree with everything they are saying. I also know from experience how hard it is to apply when you are feeling so desperate, anxious, fearful and depressed. It is sooooo much easier said than done. Even Sandi's 37 rules. I remember reading those rules every single day. I also remember feeling like I kept failing at them and it felt impossible. So if you are feeling that way too, I want you to know that is okay. You just pick yourself up, dust yourself off and you start over. Each morning you wake up and you just start over. All you can do is the best you can do. .... Have you read Alison's thread? She has come such a long, long way in this process. She is now turning this corner and it is AMAZING. She is feeling strong, confident and detached. She is moving forward with her head held high with or without her H. She went through some really hard times too. But, she kept on picking herself up and she is getting there. So I want you to really take that in .... We all need to find our own way and all of our outcomes will be different, but the same advice applies to us all ... most important for you to read ---

IT WILL NOT BE THIS WAY FOREVER. THINGS WILL GET BETTER IN TIME. I know right now you are spinning and terrified and in a state of shock, but I want you to understand that in time things will get better.

Thank you BluWave - the in time part is sooooo hard for me....I just want this pain to end. I am just physically so tired of it. Its there when I slip into bed, patiently waiting at the end of the bed for me to wake up. And when I do, its my best friend, from the moment my feet hit the ground until they are back up on the bed. Its endless - and it frazzles me to no end - its on my mind always. And when I thought that him getting rid of the OW, (did he?) that there would be some relief... there wasn't. He still is cold, uncaring, mean. And I feel like I should be doing something, and the path we are on is going nowhere, actually getting worse I can feel it. I just want to know, I really want to be told - what am I supposed to do now?


Speaking of Alison and her detachment, I recall you saying that part of the reason that I have struggled with piecing was due to the fact that I may have detached too much. I am not sure what I said, but that is not true. I think the word detachment (and most words we use here) can be confusing. Words and just words and we define them differently. I started to get to a place where I detached and did not allow him to have so much power over me and I also started to imagine a life without him. Naturally he could feel me slipping away. However when we started to reconcile our M, it was not my detachment that made it so hard, it was simply the process of trying to shovel through all this chit, learn to forgive him & trust him, to work on the M while we both had to work on our own stuff, and to fight off those constant triggers, and understand WHY this all happened in the first place, and try and continue to raise our kids and home on a daily, keep up a "normal" routine, fight off so much hurt/anger/resentment, and on and on, and it was just HARD. It takes two committed people to do that hard work. I think it is hard for anyone that makes it that far and even then it doesn't always work. Often we cling so tightly to the idea of getting our partner back, that we fail to see who they have actually become in this process. I am sorry but I do not see your H as a desirable partner. Not right now anyways! He is sooooo far from anyone that can even begin to work on all this.

Thank you for explaining detachment and how it related to your situation. Your right that the definition has alot to do with how one interprets that. If anything, I am jealous about how you were able to, and I so desperately want to be able to do that! I have to say the more mean things he does, that does help to detach...but he has an uncanny ability to know when to hug and throw a kiss in there to just keep me unbalanced.
Can I ask you about what you are saying about my H? I want to understand the part about being soooo far from anyone that can even begin to work on all this....I mean I know this guy has issues, sex addiction, porn addiction, gambling addiction, steroid rage, all of that...but I would appreciate your input on your take of him.

One of the major differences between your (and May's) sitch is that he is still there. So not only it it hard to follow the rules, GAL, detach, etc, but it is doubly hard to do that with him right there. When I discovered my H's A, I took a very hard line approach. After he moped and waffled around a bit I had to tell him firmly that if he was not going to 100% commit to our M and family then he needed to GTFO. And he did. I was shocked and devastated of course, but 6 years later, I can see now that it was the only way. He had to experience life without the cushion of his W, family and home. He also had to go out in the real world with this affair and let it fail on it's own. And fail it did! It usually does. You see, once you take away the mystery, fantasy and sheer drama of an active A -- and you stick these two dummies together in the real world -- they get to see each other for who they really are. My H realized pretty quickly he didn't even like her. He couldn't run from me and blame me because I wasn't there anymore. She was just an escape because he was too weak to deal with his real problems. He also missed his life. We had a nice life most days, even with our M issues.

So you and May have a different challenge of DBing with your H right there in your home. I honestly cannot even imagine how either of you do it. I think in both of your sitches it might benefit you to just let them go. In May's case, I think he needs to go out there and let his A fail. In your case, I do also worry about your safety -- emotionally and physically. He is really a mess, all over the map and he is not respecting you and caring for your well being. It is easy for us to put a label on that and call it abuse or whatever, but only you know what you have in front of you. In any relationship, there will be issues, but you should never feel afraid to be yourself. You always have the right to have your space, to say "no," and to not feel that you will be punished for your own imperfections. It is not healthy to live with that constant stress :-((( I was in a very bad relationship in my younger years, during/after HS, and I recall how uneasy I always felt. It took me time to get out of there, but looking back on that I can now see how unhealthy and toxic it was. I made a million excuses for him because it was too painful to see what it really was. But it was him. And that was his to own. It wasn't my fault and my H's A was not my fault either, even tho we did have a lot of issues and I was a cr-p wife. We all have to make that healthy detachment, together or apart. Codependency easily becomes toxic in any long term R if we don't work on it and keep healthy detachment.

This might be the hardest and most traumatizing experience of your life. I have been through some crazy things (most I have not shared here) but I still believe that my H's A and him leaving me for those 10 months was the hardest thing I have ever been through. I had constant anxiety, I couldnt eat, sleep or even think. There were so many days (most days) I did not think I would ever be okay. I thought about dying, not waking up. ODing, and a life of instability and misery. The darkest days of my life. I felt like I was broken and might never be okay. But there was this deep seeded, and almost invisible, little voice or light, that knew I would eventually be okay if I just kept trying and trying and gave it more time. I don't know if it was because I had to make it through for my kids or because I cognitively understood humans are resilient, but whatever it was it was in there. I know you have that too. If you cannot find it, then I am asking you to just trust me on this.

THIS BLUWAVE !! THIS ABOVE IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM TERRIFIED OF!!!!!!!! I know he has to go, but I am struggling as it is, and I know if he goes - it might just be the end! And if not, then it would be just like you are saying for however many months he is gone...SHEER MISERY, and I am so sorry to say, that I am weak and don't want to be left out there all alone and having all that anxiety and not eating or sleeping (like it was at the first month of BD). That was sheer misery!!! And I can not just willingly jump into something that I know will eviscerate me entirely. Its just human nature to just hold on to what your brain thinks is safety. I know on the other side it will be okay, either way. I do trust you! But I just can't full on jump into the meat grinder right now.

IT WILL NOT BE THIS WAY FOREVER. THINGS WILL GET BETTER IN TIME. I know right now you are spinning and terrified and in a state of shock, but I want you to understand that in time things will get better.

If there is any advice I want to give you right now, it is just to wake up each day and just get through it. Think of your H like a jar of pickles and shove him to the back of the fridge -- he can sit back there for now. You wake up, you shower, you tend to those kids, you eat, sleep, you read, you walk, and you allow yourself some small moments of joy or laughter. You are going to mess up a ton and break the rules. F it! We all do. A man that is healthy and strong will love you for those F ups. He is not that man right now, so just leave him in the back of the fridge. This is enough for now. Can you do that? Can you just trust that each day and week and month this will get a little bit easier if you believe?

Yes! I can do this, this I can do....I just worry that I am missing a window that if I don't kick him out, I will lose this marriage. At some point, kicking him out will not have the effect I want. I think its BIG effect the earlier on you do it...and lessens as you wait....then its just a drifting...and does not have the same shock value. What do you think?

Should I tell him to GTFO?! Or let him sit in the back of the fridge?

Blu

Thank you Blu!!!

[LH19]

I have to say the above is really confusing to me....LH had said that I just need to eat my $hit sandwiches, so I thought that was what I should be doing.

I want to be clear about the context of what I said about the above. That was when it looked like the affair was over and he was going to recommit to the marriage and you had just yelled at him for 4 hours. Obviously things have taken a drastic change for the worst so no more sandwiches.

Yes! I can do this, this I can do....I just worry that I am missing a window that if I don't kick him out, I will lose this marriage. At some point, kicking him out will not have the effect I want. I think its BIG effect the earlier on you do it...and lessens as you wait....then its just a drifting...and does not have the same shock value. What do you think?

One of the things that happens in DB is that sometimes we will say something in order to provoke a specific reaction. More often than not, we don't get the reaction we wanted, and then we feel even worse. That's just something to be aware of. If you're trying to provoke H to get expressions of guilt, remorse, fear or doubt, you'll often get the opposite and feel even worse.

I want to understand the part about being soooo far from anyone that can even begin to work on all this....I mean I know this guy has issues, sex addiction, porn addiction, gambling addiction, steroid rage, all of that...but I would appreciate your input on your take of him.

This is why you should be separating! Not to get a reaction.

And I feel like I should be doing something, and the path we are on is going nowhere, actually getting worse I can feel it. I just want to know, I really want to be told - what am I supposed to do now?

Given that you have to make things worse before they can possibly get better, separation may not be a bad choice, but I would advise pursuing a separation with the same rules you would have if you were divorced, which is to say that you don't continue to comingle your lives (aside from the kids) and you are free to live your own lives without social accountability to the other person.

That way he can really see if that way of life is better or worse for her. Prepare yourself that in the beginning he will view it as better, mainly because he'll find new found freedom and has convinced herself that its what he wants. It may take six months or two years for reality to set in, but it certainly will.

My advice would be to lean in to agree to separate, and work productively with him on the plan with the presentation that you're on board and plan to enjoy this change also. That's going to make him wonder. You want him to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell him anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.

[SteveLW]

Bluesea, I just posted this in Pommy's thread, but I think it has application to your sitch too:

Pommy, you bring up a really good point.

So when I was in my knowledge gathering phase in the initial months of my sitch, I found a lot of different theories about how to handle As. Some of the 'experts' said to ignore the A, and to just do things that rekindled your connection to your S. Then there was the hardline of "there can be no R while there is a third party involved." And lots of in between.

One of the experts used to repeat a lot that "the problem in the MR is not THE problem". The point being that the A was usually the symptom of deeper issues in the MR. And rather than focus on the A, you focus on the deeper issues and then A will then just go away.

I tend towards the "there can be no R with a third party involved" mindset, because otherwise the LBS trying to work on the underlying issues results in a lot of pressure and pursuit. And by time BD rolls around the time for pressure and pursuit are long passed.

I would guess that there are some folks that are successful in Ring by focusing on the underlying issues, but I think that % is probably a lot lower than the DB approach. I've often stated that if you DB perfectly after BD, from the get-go, then you have about a 50/50 chance of moving to Ring and piecing. Every mistake, setback, and poor DBing move you make lowers that %. The problem is not that DBing doesn't work, the problem is that very few LBSs DB very well.Then we get newcomers that look at all of the active sitches here and go "so few end in R!". Well that is because the people that tend to post here are the ones that tend to struggle with DBing the most.

Lots of good DBers that are able to turn their sitches around by backing off and removing all pressure and pursuit, GAL like crazy, 180ing on their poor behavior (including getting into IC!), and detaching really well usually get what they need to learn from the forum and we do not hear from them again. Kitcat is an example of this. She came here a few years ago, was able to DB her way out of her sitch, only to revert back (180s need to be PERMANENT! which is why IC is mandatory) and find herself back in the same situation.

While KC unfortunately didn't save her MR long-term, if you go look at her original threads you see that once she moved to R and piecing, she left the board. I think this happens A LOT. A few of us that moved to Ring and piecing stick around afterward, but I think we are in the vast minority.

So, DBing, including sticking to your core values, is a must if you are to have any chance at Ring and piecing. Some of the vets here hate when I start talking percentages, but I do it to highlight the importance of DB. If you DB well, you can get yourself close to a 50% chance of Ring and piecing. If you don't and apply a lot of pursuit and pressure then that % drops precipitously to less than 1%.

Note, the 50% thing is the number of sitches that can potentially get a chance at Ring and piecing. In a lot of sitches, by time that happens the LBS no longer wants it and have moved on themselves.

[BlueSea]

LH and Steve ---Taking both of your advice together ...

I am trying to put together a plan that I can wrap my head around. I am going to DB as best I can for the next 2 weeks (focus on detachment, removing all pressure and pursuit, not bring up any R talks AT ALL, show change via action only). Just get to that timeline of 2 weeks, then re-evaluate where I am at, how he is relating to me, journal any actions (positive or negative) and try to link that back to my actions (ie, what is working and what isn't).

Some questions that are important to me...
1. If he wants to have an R talk, do I keep everything to myself, and just listen only? This is where I would lean in on the moving out...but would this be only if he brought it up? or would I ?

2. When we did MC about 2 weeks ago, we were supposed to have 'check-ins' with eachother, I was hoping he would initiate that, but no surprise he has not. Let that go?

3. I had come up with a plan with a friend last night that seemed like something with structure that would work for me, it would be re-evaluated monthly... that he could stay in the house, only if:
First -nothing new or questionable comes up, ie night time runs
Second- that we attend MC or he attends IC at least 2x's per month
Third - that he intends to make some efforts towards the marriage
If any of that did not happen then it was time for him to move out.

But, after typing all that out, and thinking how great that was ... the bottomline right now is ... he does not want to even be in this relationship at all, regardless of OW, he believes there is no happy life for him that will include me. So, that plan is not going to work at all --- maybe later, if he ever is interested in us again - but for now, what I have to do, is keep that first 'rule' in play for myself - if he does something questionable (contact with OW, night runs, etc) then it will just have to be time to go. Period. No backsliding.

He is actually being pretty nice right now, bordering on amicable. Would go so far as to say is in a better mood. I see that as a good thing. What I have noticed is that when I DB by not speaking unless spoken to, and keeping it short, and ending the conversation first - results in him getting sullen. He starts doing that back to me, even harder. And becomes generally unpleasant. So what I am seeing is that that tactic does not work for us.

What I have been journaling that seems to work is definitely giving him his space but also being pleasant to him - not overly sugary/handmaiden like - but just generally pleasant and interested -- and his moods get better. Not chattiness, but genuine interest when talking about his work or what he is talking about and try to exit before any awkward silences come up. Also, calling him out on when he is being really rude to me. In the moment he barks, but when I stand 'gentle but firm' that it isn't okay, he takes a minute and then usually says he is sorry, that he did not mean to be.

I think that is what is working - who knows?! He does not say too much, or share his feelings, but I sense that he is making a try. I have let a lot of anger go recently, specifically around the incident and catching something from it - its been a little over a week. He understood that anger, or so he said. But if there is any hope, I need to move on from it. Anger is my enemy.

I have since found out who she is, and what she does, looks like, and when I am feeling a little too hopeful, I just say her name and it immediately deflates me and pushes me towards detachment. I also have been trying to spend time just thinking about life without H, to keep me grounded. Just a few mins every day - what does that feel like? how would that happen? What would I do? What kind of person would I want to be with? I need to prepare for the possibility that even though I love this man (and all his faults) he may, in the end, not love me back (ouch). I have alot of love and adventure to share with someone that would appreciate it if he doesn't.

[wooba]

Some questions that are important to me...
1. If he wants to have an R talk, do I keep everything to myself, and just listen only? This is where I would lean in on the moving out...but would this be only if he brought it up? or would I ?

Listen and validate. Ask questions if you need clarification. “I see that you are angry.....am I understanding correctly that you are upset because of XYZ?”

2. When we did MC about 2 weeks ago, we were supposed to have 'check-ins' with eachother, I was hoping he would initiate that, but no surprise he has not. Let that go?
3. I had come up with a plan with a friend last night that seemed like something with structure that would work for me, it would be re-evaluated monthly... that he could stay in the house, only if:
First -nothing new or questionable comes up, ie night time runs
Second- that we attend MC or he attends IC at least 2x's per month
Third - that he intends to make some efforts towards the marriage
If any of that did not happen then it was time for him to move out.

Again, you have no control over his actions. You are not his mother. You cannot be the enforcer of the rules. You probably can’t even force him to move out. You can only control YOU. Please let go of any expectation of him doing anything. He may keep doing all the things that you despise. What you can only do is to set boundaries for yourself - If he’s yelling at me I will walk away.

He is actually being pretty nice right now, bordering on amicable. Would go so far as to say is in a better mood. I see that as a good thing. What I have noticed is that when I DB by not speaking unless spoken to, and keeping it short, and ending the conversation first - results in him getting sullen. He starts doing that back to me, even harder. And becomes generally unpleasant. So what I am seeing is that that tactic does not work for us.

You do have to experiment to see what works for you. But one thing to keep in mind is this:

“One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage.”


Sorry I forgot which vet wrote this but it’s in my book of quotes. Hope it helps.

[LH19]

B,

One of the biggest misconceptions is that once the OP is out of the picture that the marriage will be magically saved. The affair is just a symptom of the problem.

Blue it feels like you are trying to force things right now and that is only going to push him away. I really don’t think you should be in MC right now. You need to give him time and space to sort his stuff out. Stop worrying about what works and what doesn’t and stick to Sandis 37 rules.

I really think you need to understand the timeline here. This is going to take many months if not years to play out. There is absolutely nothing you can do until he is ready to recommit to the marriage. For people who are control freaks that can be a bitter pill to swallow.

[Spiral]

Blue,

Count me in as part of the no R talks camp. No reason for you to initiate one. No reason for you to listen to what he has to say. It seems like a lot of what he says to you is garbage. Why listen to it?

-Spiral

[BlueSea]

There was no formal discussion of separation ..... just an announcement from H that he wanted to leave. I listened to what he had to say and let him know that he was free to go whenever he wanted, that I was not making him stay, that he could walk out the door when he wanted.

It was like he didn't hear me. He kept saying he wanted to leave and would throw in things that were clearly meant to hurt me, and I would follow up with the same...that he has always had the option to go - I can't make him stay - he is free to leave at any time. At some point, I got up from my seat and opened the front door and came back to my seat -- so when he spoke to me he could see me AND the door opened up behind me. Cage door is open. Just go. But he was on a loop, just repeating himself it seemed, that he wanted to go. This went on for at least an hour, maybe longer.

At some point the kids came in, most likely after hearing it all, its not a big house - and they also were ready for dinner. He wanted the kids to know that he loved them and nothing would change between them. They in return told him that they didn't want to be around him. After all they had seen him do, with the OW, with the gambling, drinking, and not trying - they did not want to be with him or around him. He was taken aback that they would have feelings about all this. He was shocked that they did not want to to participate in his overall 'plan' where he left and he could come and check them out to play with them when he felt like it.

I was just spent, literally just feeling numb - whether it was right or wrong to 'let' the kids speak, I don't know. Everyone had something to say and I was not going to even try to be in control of any of it. I had been trying to keep the seams together to this failing marriage for so long - I just let it all go. The kids wanted their say and they had it. I had done something that was really hard for me to do - to calmly tell him he could leave whenever he wanted (over and over) which had taken all my energy because inside it was so painful to say (and repeat) and so painful to hear all the things he was saying.

And after all that, H announced that he had to think about things. I was stunned, think about what? The kids at this point, were onboard with him going, I had told him he was free to leave and now he wanted to think. There was no point to discuss anything any more, it was late, the kids needed to eat so I decided that we would leave to get food.

When we got back, H was in the dark in the den, thinking. At some point I went to the kitchen, and he came up and hugged me and kept saying he 'was sorry' and was emotional and hugged me very hard and for a long time. I don't know what that meant - or even what he thought he had to think about. He turned in early last night - and its early morning on the next day.

LH, Steve, Spiral and Wooba - I had intended to reply to your advice. Thank you for posting and helping me thru this. If you have any advice on how to handle this new situation - I would really appreciate it.

[LH19]

Blue,

I think you handled it well and opened the proverbial cage door. Now you do nothing but give him space and then more space and even more space. At some point he is going to leave but that's ok.

At the same time, you have to build a life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of, full of fun activities, outside interests, and engaging friends. If you can do both of those things -- completely emotionally uncouple from him (fake it until you make it) and build an amazing life for yourself, he'll clamor to come back and if he doesn't you won't care. That's your only winning path out of where you are, but getting there is going to be uncomfortable, and more painful than you feel today, because it will go against your nature.

Blue, I'm very sorry you're here. Everything he told you about your faults was nonsense to justify his actions. When you then respond to his complaints you validate them, so he feels even more entitled to his actions.

You've been trying to "nice your way back" for the last several months.

It's not working, it will never work.

You cannot placate him, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.

You also cannot push him away by withdrawing support.

He has chosen his course of action, and as of right now, *nothing* you do will impact it.

Your shortest path back together is to go in the opposite direction.

You need to make things *worse* before they can get better

Are you willing to do that?

If not, you can expect many more months/years of the same thing you have now.

[SteveLW]

What does it mean? It means nothing. It means everything. It means something in between. Bluesea, please do not fall into the LBS trap of trying to decipher every word and action. Whether he hugs you, whether he doesn't. Whether he stays, whether he goes. Whether his hug is brief and light, or long and tight. None of it changes what you should be doing.

And you handled this pretty well. I would have liked to see more validation. To be honest you only had to say "he was free to go whenever he wanted, that I was not making him stay, that he could walk out the door when he wanted" one time. Then listen and validate. "I understand you feel you need to leave." "So your are saying that you feel that you want to leave." Etc.

LBSs repeat themselves too much. I see so many LBSs here that feel that every time their WAS starts an R talk that they have to reiterate that "I don't want this, you do" type statements. So just a slight 2x4 related to you repeating that you can't make him stay, weren't making him stay, and that he could go anytime he wanted: should have stated it once, then listened and validated.

As far as the kids, he started the conversation with them, they said what they felt, there was no reason for you to try to control that. I think you did fine.

Now, here is what I think. He expected begging. Pleading, Crying. Anger. And when you gave him calm. Cool. In control of your emotions. He didn't know how to react except to repeat it. I think he was so shocked that your reaction was different than he had imagined, that he just wanted to make sure you understood that he was REALLY talking about leaving. This is exactly what I told you would happen. When a WAS "threatens" to leave, and you are on board with it, they are shocked and do not know how to proceed.

Also, he could have been using this as a manipulation attempt. "If I make her think I am leaving, if I speak to the kids as if that is my decision, then maybe I can get her to capitulate to what I want again, and that is to come and go as I please." And when you didn't respond with fear, doubt, and emotion, that you calmly told him he was free to go anytime he wanted, he realized that he was not going to be able to use the threat of leaving to get you to back down.

It is kind of like in my sitch. I initiated BD by confronting my W about her EA. When she realized she was caught, and that might mean that she couldn't continue the EA, she clobbered me with "I don't want to be married anymore". From that point forward, the entire conversation changed from the EA and her indiscretion, to "why do you want a D??". She knew what she was doing. I think she had planned on this misdirection in case I found out about the EA. So your WAH was looking to use the threat of leaving, since he new you were terrified of that in the past, to get you "back in line". So he could continue his less than clandestine behavior without threat of repercussions.

This is why I said when he threatened to leave, you should offer to help him pack. In fact, I kind of wish you had been more forceful related to WANTING him to leave. "You are free to leave anytime you want, I can't make you stay if I wanted to, and in fact, I would prefer that you do leave if you are going to continue behaving the way that you have." This would have made him realize that not only is he free to leave, but that you would prefer it over the way things have been. This would make him see how serious you were about not taking this lying down any longer. That you were ready to move on from him as he is today, unless he is willing to make radical changes and recommit to the marriage. I know you still struggle with this. You have a fear of him being out of the house, but really he has been emotionally gone for months. So that fear is irrational.

So overall, a solid B+. Which is way better than the Bluesea of just a few weeks ago would have done!

[BlueSea]

Steve - I finally see and agree, that he has been emotionally gone for a long time. It took me awhile to see this and catch up. If there is an opportunity to say this "I would prefer that you do leave if you are going to continue behaving the way that you have." I will say it.

LH -- Can you explain a bit more on your point here: "You need to make things *worse* before they can get better"

Do I bring up what are his plans to leave?

I really am not sure how to handle this situation when its mentioned to give him lots of space - does that mean I ignore him?

We had that huge conversation last night, how does one transition from that to giving space. It's almost like giving him the green light to stay here and keep us all miserable while he 'decides' whatever he is deciding. And, if he is going to leave anyway - it would help me get my life started if he actually did leave. Wouldn't one want to make it just a bit miserable for him to stay?---- or is the point that he has to make that decision himself?

thank you!
BlueSea

[LH19]

LH -- Can you explain a bit more on your point here: "You need to make things *worse* before they can get better"

What I am saying is that IMO you need to separate or divorce.

He has issues that he doesn't want to address that you may or may not be exacerbating, and he doesn't believe in his heart that he can navigate back to "happy" with you.

As you probably know, the only way he's going to overcome that deeply held belief is for you to open the cage door and completely cut him free. If you engage in a relationship with him again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) He sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) He views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) He's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, he's going to walk again down the line, because he really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

[b]Do I bring up what are his plans to leave?

I would give it some time.

I really am not sure how to handle this situation when its mentioned to give him lots of space - does that mean I ignore him?

Don't be rude, don't be dismissive, don't be passive aggressive or antagonistic, just be uninvested.

We had that huge conversation last night, how does one transition from that to giving space.

Whenever he's home you are out or doing something in another room.

It's almost like giving him the green light to stay here and keep us all miserable while he 'decides' whatever he is deciding.

His mood should not effect yours at all.

[SteveLW]

LH hit on most of it. I wouldn't start any more talks about the R or him leaving or staying. I believe you will get your opportunity as he will eventually bring it up again. Mostly you need to listen and validate, but feel free to throw in that your preference is for him to leave if he isn't willing to recommit to the marriage.

Now, as far as him actually leaving, it will have to be voluntarily. Most jurisdictions have protections in place for spouses that mean you cannot legally throw him out. You can ask him to leave. You can make it known you'd prefer he leave, but there may be legal ramifications of trying to throw him out. I would highly suggest you speak to a lawyer. It was one of the best things I did in my situation.

As far as what your options are. Bluesea, we tell LBS all the time that it is within your power to initiate separation and/or divorce. You can decide at anytime that you no longer want to be married to a lying cheater, who is also a pretty crappy father on top of it, and make that happen yourself. IN fact, I encourage LBS with spouses that are actively engaged in PAs unabashedly to move towards that place. Just be sure you are ready to be D'd, and not do it as a way of manipulating him. This is where IC can really pay dividends because it can help you with your GAL, 180s and detachment to get you in the place where you know you will be okay being D'd.

But overall I agree with LH. Take some time. Stick to the principle of not initiating R talks. WHen he does, say what you feel you need to say ONE TIME, then listen and validate. Get a consult with a lawyer if you haven't already so you know what next steps are and what your options are. And make sure to keep your poker face if he brings up leaving again or actually does leave. Your outward attitude should be "good riddance to bad rubbish" no matter what you are feeling on the inside.

[BlueSea]

LH, Steve - What is going on here?

I memorized your 3 points LH and very glad I did.
I adopted your attitude Steve, 'good riddance to bad rubbish'.

While I was getting ready in the bathroom - I was thinking thru all the advice, getting into that mindset completely, sort of putting on that armor/attitude for the day. And suddenly H shows up at the bathroom door. He says he wants to have a family meeting later in the afternoon.

Without stopping to look at him while I finished what I was doing, I asked him, 'what about?' H tells me that he wants to try at this marriage, he wants the family to know he wants to try. I turned towards him, non emotionally to listen - and he goes on to say that it would be easier and he feels that he has no choice, that he is afraid - not of the next few months, but of the years ahead and what that would mean but he is willing to be vulnerable, to try, to go to counseling and do whatever it takes. He does break down crying, so it took some time to get thru all that. All I did was nod, and tell him that I understood. And I just listened.

After he was done, I told him that he did have a choice and he should want to be in this marriage - not just fall back into by default because I did not want to go thru all this again later. I told him the LH 3 points that I expected from him:
1. consider me high value
2. to want to be in a relationship with me, over someone else - or being alone
3. he had to do win me back, doing whatever that took

He asked me to understand just a little, that he wants to want this - and will go to counseling, and cut down on the drinking and understands and agrees to those 3 points. I let him know we could talk later in the afternoon.

LH, Steve --- Really? this back and forth is very hard for me... I have distanced myself just enough that I don't fall for the tears and emotion so easily. Is this for real? Or is he just trying to stay?

How should I handle this? Counseling is a must for both of us, clearly, but how do we define what are the boundaries that if he does not try - we need to move on separately. Does he stay? Or would it be better if he was out of the house? (I know I can't make him go, but I think if I pushed it, he would.

I think now H and I are both in the same situation, trying to love someone that we no longer love.

[LH19]

Blue,

You are wise to be cautious.

Two things.

Patience and actions.

You will need patience.

Actions will tell his true motive.

[LH19]

I think now H and I are both in the same situation, trying to love someone that we no longer love.

I 100% agree with this statement. Fear is keeping you both together.

[SteveLW]

Bluesea, this happens sometimes. Especially when you get really good at detachment. Where the spouse is expecting certain reactions and behaviors, and you don't react. Then they start to rethink things.

Also, I think his kids reaction to him are having an effect on him. He thought, like most lying cheaters do, that he could do whatever he wanted and everyone would just go "oh well" and he'd have no repercussions. Some of them don't care at the time and regret it later. Others realize what they are set to lose, and want to try to correct it immediately.

So I think the exchange last night has him questioning himself. So I think he may really be considering ending the affair, recommitting back to the marriage because of what he stands to lose. Lots of WAS threaten to leave, and when you call their bluff, they really have no where to go! One of the things my W said was that when she said she wanted a D, wanted to get a job, and wanted to get her own place, that if I had thrown her out right then she would have been screwed. So you do have to be careful here.

He might be buying time. Or he might be sincere. The problem is that As are addictions. And most people do not just quit addictions cold turkey and move on. That is difficult for the addicted person to do without help.

The good news is that this changes NOTHING that you should be doing. GAL, 180s and continue to work on detachment. Do not overreact to this. Do not celebrate. Do not count your chickens. Give it time. Give him space. Give yourself time and space! Que Sera Sera. What will be, will be.

[may22]

Hi Bluesea,

I just want to make a suggestion that you can take or leave, but I'm still thinking about what happened a couple of weeks ago and the fear (and utter bravery) I felt in your posting about it. And the other situation you shared more recently where he flipped out about the alcohol bottle. It feels to me that there is maybe a little more going on here than just whether or not he wants to work on the M or not, and maybe you both need a little space for him to detox and for you to feel safe again. It is great that he is saying he wants to want the M and he's willing to do counseling etc, but maybe he could *show* you that he is serious by taking some time away from home-- even just a week or two-- to stop drinking, get into IC, getting the firearms out of the house, stopping the gambling, transparency on what he's spent and what his plans are to fix this, etc. It isn't necessarily just that he is d!cking you around with the PA and committing/not committing to your R. He's done a LOT of pretty destructive things beyond an affair that need to be addressed.

Just because he wants a meeting today doesn't mean you need to make any decisions today. Maybe all you have to do today is listen and validate and say I'll need to think about that, and spend some time really thinking about what you need and want before making any decisions.

Hang in there, Blue. You've got this.

xoxo M

[Sage4]

Hi Bluesea,

I echo May's advice: if there is any way to get some space between you, I think it would give you both some much-needed breathing room to really figure this all out. I admire your strength and fortitude to go through all of this under the same roof as H, but I found so much clarity and self-awareness in the moments that I wasn't actually with my H. Is any way that you and the kids can escape for a long weekend, or maybe he would be agreeable to taking some space himself?

Also, YES to not having to make any decisions today. In fact, I wish I had waited longer during the swinging back-and-forth that my H has done over the past few months. I wish I stood up to his remorse and charms and allowed him and myself to see if it was truly real, or just words. You have nothing to lose by waiting or drawing this process out. We are more defined by our 'nos' than our 'yeses'. And I would also add that 'maybe, let me think about it' is perhaps on of the most powerful tools you have.

Thinking of you!

[BlueSea]

He wanted to discuss this as a family, so we did. He was very emotional and addressed us all. He showed remorse and was apologetic and promised to devote himself to the success of the marriage and to the family.
-He is going to put in all his effort to make this marriage work
-He is going to go to IC for 6 months
-MC when I think he/we are ready
-He understands fully the 3 points that LH called out and agrees to this and says he is truthfully only at the stage that he really wants to want all those 3 things.
-He will be vulnerable and open, and that scares him to do that, but he will
-He acknowledges all my efforts and is now there to work with me on this marriage
-All of this is taken on a day by day basis, we have all been wounded thru this, he recognizes the devastation he has caused with his selfishness

I am willing to move forward - but am extremely suspicious. He did spend the rest of the time answering questions that he would not before, about the OW, about the gambling, about the credit cards, the gifts, a lot of things he would not before. He went thru the accounts and tallied all the debt from gambling and stepped me thru all the transactions. He has assured us that the A ended on June 11th, like he said before, and did admit to that one mtg for 15 mins (he is tracked) was to pass left items between them. He agrees to being tracked if that is what he needs to do. He did follow thru on getting his testosterone levels checked (off the charts at 1600 where norm/low is 200) and will get this stabilized via our family physician who has agreed to administer to normal levels.

I am not going to get all dramatic and think we are fixed, not in the least. Its going to be a hard journey ahead. He is a liar and a cheat, and because that is his history, I will remain on the fence until I have seen actions that back his words.

I do notice a softening - as quickly as his eyes went cold on Feb 25th - his eyes softened today and I have seen more of the nice guy I married rather than the raging jerk I have been eating sh!t sandwiches from these past 5 months. You all only know what a jerk he can be, but he really was the nicest husband, full on NGS. I let him know I was done walking on eggshells, and I would rather walk away than go thru all this again. He gets it.

At the end of the day - its my prerogative to just walk whenever I want to - with or without cause. He could do the same at any time. I am not going to wrap myself up in promises. Until I see some real actions, I am keeping my mindset that this is just a fire drill. It was only yesterday that he was threatening to leave....

Thank you Steve, LH, May and Sage - I am willing to invest some time to see if this is a sincere effort on his part or not.

[LH19]

Blue,

I would not have told him the three things that are a must for reconciliation, that was meant to be the baseline. Not a big deal but most advice here is not to be shared.

I have to be honest I am very skeptical right now but we shall see. He has a really lot of work to do on his end and time will tell if he’s up to it.

Give him space to sit with his feelings and see if he pursues an IC appointment on his own.

[Sage4]

Hi Bluesea,

Sounds like the family meeting went well, all considering. How do the children feel right now? What was their reaction?

Adding on to LH’s post, I think the hardest thing for you right now is going to be sitting back and letting him fix this mess on his own. Making his own IC and Drs appts, not asking him about it all, letting him repair his relationships with the kids (and you not getting in between their anger towards him), and most importantly, not reminding him of his commitments to doing XYZ (not verbally, anyway, but keep up your boundaries). Let HIM be the one to come up with a transparency plan, including tracking if that’s what he wants to include. (You of course can decide if it works for you or not, but he needs to take the next steps) The more he does this on his own, the better the outcome for you as a family. He broke it, he fixes it. Don’t step in. The only person you can save is YOU.

You have the right mindset, letting his actions speak louder than words. Stay strong, be brave and remember how mighty you are!

[SteveLW]

Bluesea, sounds like a good initial step. Day by day is a good approach. As someone that has been through it, trust me when I say there will be bad days and days you want to pull the plug yourself. 2 years+ in I still have them. I'm having one today.

Breathe. Relax. Allow yourself to step away from it all from time to time.

[BlueSea]

Thank you LH, Sage, Steve

LH - I will give him space, this I do struggle with, I need to get a tattoo that says -- be patient

Sage4 - 16D is still mad, but will go along. 13S is quiet but optimistic, he adores his Dad, or used to at least.
Thank you for your post - I am so clueless on DB and the techniques here - I really needed to read what you wrote because I would not have known to do that, ie, "he broke it, he fixes it, don't step in". I would have totally 'helped' with checking if he is making IC appts and offering advice with kid relationships.

The more he does this on his own, the better the outcome for you as a family.

Makes total sense - but again - I would have completely missed it. Please come back if you can and point out the obvious to me, because its just not so obvious to me.

Steve - I am so sorry that you had an off day with your S. Its hard to be the veteran. I just assume its easy because you know so much. Thank you for always offering your advice to me on my situation. I am taking it day by day and always praying for direction and sending up gratitude.


Yesterday
In the evening, H texted he wanted to go for a drive. Honestly, I was fearful to go. That drive always meant something not good. But, my son gave me a pep talk, and I went. H was really full of conversation, we talked more in that 30 min drive than the past 5 months.
This scenario (of just having a simple conversation) is so strange now, I struggle with being at ease around him when he is being nice...something in me gets this fight or flight feeling that something bad is about to happen. It was almost like a panic feeling. I need to chill. He kept saying that "this is a marathon, not a sprint" -- I need to continue to detach -- so that no matter what happens I will be okay. He did get emotional, he did reach for my hand and held it - but now I find that I have no feelings around him, his emotionality, or his reaching for my hand. Now he wants to hug, and I really just don't want to anymore.

I did a lot of listening and added some banter so it would not get awkward - but overall - I think it was good I went, even if I had to push myself to do it. Any advice on how I should be or not be?

[LH19]

Blue,

Are you familiar with the Pavlov and his dogs experiment. That's what is happening with you during the drive and every time the bell rings (so to speak) you get a cortisol dump which puts you into fight or flight mode. Unfortunately this will probably continue for awhile.

I think you need to be honest with him and let him know that you are taking time to see if this is what you want moving forward. Also, you are not his mommy you are his wife. He made this mess and he needs to repair it with the kids and you. That means he makes his own appointments and follows through on his word like a big boy.

Make him earn it. That's the only way it works long term. When he speaks you just listen. Otherwise you should be giving him space and GAL.

[BlueSea]

I had a breakdown last night.

H was talking about his journey and the next 6 months of figuring this out for him, and his thoughts, and his feelings and his life, and him him him...so I let him know that I wasn't sure either, that I also had decisions to make....that I had just come thru a marathon of getting thru the last 5 months that really was hard on me and took a lot out of me and I have distanced myself enough to feel like I am in a healthy enough place that walking away was now an option for me.

I let him know I am scared of being vulnerable again - that he is now being soft and kind - but it wasn't just the other day that I was terrified of him. When he came to hug me the other night and it was dark, and he was still in a bad place, he surprised me when he grabbed me so hard - I thought he was going to really hurt me - that it was it, he had snapped. So, knowing that mean guy is in there - and could come out at any time - makes me so fearful, in words I just can not express here. I saw a side of him that terrifies me - everything about me is raising warning flags.

I see him trying, given its only been a couple days, but all these smiles and hugs is so counter to the person I have been dealing with these past 5 months that I am not able to process his change. Where is that snarling beast that ripped me to shreds to many times? He is in there. When will 'he' come out again? How can I just offer my heart up again to this person and move forward?

Its also so hard to know I have been praying and wanting this change and effort from him for so long - and here it is! - and now I am faltering. I let him know how depleted I am right now and unsure. This man who I loved so much did some really terrible things to me - I had put all that to the side so I could continue the fight - but its all coming back to haunt me.

I was not the best wife I am sure but I really am a good person and I deserve someone that will treat me kindly, that I can trust implicitly and will be loyal and communicative. I grieve for the husband I have lost, for the marriage that is no more - its gone, its all gone. The ignorant bliss I had enjoyed before all this is gone, I know there is a beast inside of him that I will never be able to un-see... and that has changed everything. I am questioning it all.

[LH19]

Blue I am really sorry you had a breakdown last night and that you are struggling.

The ignorant bliss I had enjoyed before all this is gone, I know there is a beast inside of him that I will never be able to un-see... and that has changed everything.

The ignorant bliss I had enjoyed before all this is gone, I know there is a selfishness inside of her that I will never be able to un-see... and that has changed everything.

I took your sentence and changed a few words to fit my situation. Prior to Sept 2014 I enjoyed the ignorant bliss of marriage. Not that my marriage was perfect because if it were I wouldn't be here, but it was ignorant bliss. Now after almost six years everything has changed. There is no innocence in anything. My world (the world) has completely changed. Not that it is better or worse it just lacks ignorant bliss. I am so more aware now that the world is a mean and nasty place and it will beat you to your knees if you let it. Again, this isn't to say everything is bad. I am closer now with my kids then I have ever been. I have had some of the best times over the last two years since I have been divorced. I have met some incredible people over the last 2-5 years. I am just not sure whether I will ever see the world again through child like eyes again. There are some scars that run really deep.

You have been through a lot the last 5 months. Please be kind and patient with yourself.

[SteveLW]

I had a breakdown last night.

H was talking about his journey and the next 6 months of figuring this out for him, and his thoughts, and his feelings and his life, and him him him...so I let him know that I wasn't sure either, that I also had decisions to make....that I had just come thru a marathon of getting thru the last 5 months that really was hard on me and took a lot out of me and I have distanced myself enough to feel like I am in a healthy enough place that walking away was now an option for me.

I let him know I am scared of being vulnerable again - that he is now being soft and kind - but it wasn't just the other day that I was terrified of him. When he came to hug me the other night and it was dark, and he was still in a bad place, he surprised me when he grabbed me so hard - I thought he was going to really hurt me - that it was it, he had snapped. So, knowing that mean guy is in there - and could come out at any time - makes me so fearful, in words I just can not express here. I saw a side of him that terrifies me - everything about me is raising warning flags.

I see him trying, given its only been a couple days, but all these smiles and hugs is so counter to the person I have been dealing with these past 5 months that I am not able to process his change. Where is that snarling beast that ripped me to shreds to many times? He is in there. When will 'he' come out again? How can I just offer my heart up again to this person and move forward?

Its also so hard to know I have been praying and wanting this change and effort from him for so long - and here it is! - and now I am faltering. I let him know how depleted I am right now and unsure. This man who I loved so much did some really terrible things to me - I had put all that to the side so I could continue the fight - but its all coming back to haunt me.

I was not the best wife I am sure but I really am a good person and I deserve someone that will treat me kindly, that I can trust implicitly and will be loyal and communicative. I grieve for the husband I have lost, for the marriage that is no more - its gone, its all gone. The ignorant bliss I had enjoyed before all this is gone, I know there is a beast inside of him that I will never be able to un-see... and that has changed everything. I am questioning it all.

This is all good stuff. I like how you let him know that you are in a place where you need to decide what is best for you. Good for you! LBSs, and WHs in particular, take for granted that they can waltz in and waltz out and their over attached Ws will sit there waiting until they are ready to condescend from on high to let them bask in his presence. I see that behavior in so many of these situations dealing with WHs. So many of the ladies that are putting up with lying cheaters just have such low self-esteem that they think they are getting what they deserve. They convince themselves that their WHs are the victims, and that they need to beg for one last chance.

So I am glad to see you breaking out of that and coming into your own. The truth is that you, and every other LBW on this forum DESERVE better!! If more LBWs had your new attitude they'd do themselves, and their sitches a world of good.

So keep GAL. Keep working on you, but keep being detached!! You've got this Bluesea! You are going to be the best version of you from here on out....no matter what you decide related to your WH!

He sounds very narcissistic. I would require intense IC for him as a stipulation for your staying in the M. Make sure you get a list of requirements too. Not just IC, but transparency as well. And anything else you can think of in order to be sure you can coexist in MR 2.0.

[BlueSea]

Thank you LH and Steve, always looking for your posts on this thread!

He is being remorseful and repentant - he is reading books on how to help me heal, always coming forward with answers and being 100% transparent about everything. He is ready to talk about anything at anytime. With that said, there have been a lot of painful things that have come out:

-He did take her on a business trip to San Francisco and visit Napa Valley (on my birthday).
-She was trailing us on our RV trip down the Oregon coast during Memorial Day weekend.
-He finally told me her real name (I had it wrong), based on social media she was clearly smitten with him (he had said she was a 'guy' about it, and had no feelings invested) but she was invested in that relationship, and her posts show it.
-And other things that shouldn't matter but hurt nonetheless: 15 years younger, fully tattooed from head to toe literally, social media is all about sex, weird underground alternative lifestyle and available on escort sites (though H says he did not know that). Completely opposite type to me.
-He said she was really nice, I jabbed back, "a prostitute with a heart of gold" type eh?
-2 kids (almost the same age as ours) with 2 different fathers, and she gave them both up....just from what I see and read, clearly someone already with life issues. She has a few years left to peddle that overweight tattooed body, and then she will really be in a world of hurt. (sorry that is judge-y)
-Among the many posts of her naked or almost or in alternative costumes - she posted naked pics of her rubbing cake all over her, and eating it with caption of "You CAN have your cake and eat it too" around the same time that H and I had conversations at his WAS cake eating. GRR.

I know it doesn't matter - I know - BUT knowing is helping me to process and close the door, in a sense that the book has been read - I can put it down. I now know it all, and need to process all of it.

He is back. Its the H I remember. He is going to try. I think we have some hope to go the distance. I am in, but cautious. Any advice on this?

[scout12]

Look up the cycle of abuse. This sounds like lovebombing. Please be careful!

[LH19]

Bluesea,

In almost 6 years on this board I have never seen a complete 360 so I would be very cautious and tread lightly.

[BlueSea]

Scout - I looked it up, and potentially this may be true. H is a raging narcissist and after listening to a few podcasts, I probably am the co-dependent half. He is a very clever manipulator - I know this - this is just a 6 month trial that either one of us can back away from. I am getting into IC, and will put this at the top of my list to discuss. Thanks Scout

"A love bomb refers to the form of emotional manipulation in which a person, often a narcissist, “bombs” you with an OTT amount of affection, flattery, gifts, and praise early in the relationship in order to win over your attention for the purpose of being able to control you."

LH - I am very cautious, I dont know if its naiveté or resilience that is driving me right now...but I full on agree with you to tread lightly.

[Sage4]

Bluesea, there seems to be some good momentum in the transparency department. However, please do not ever compare yourself to this woman. In fact, disregard everything you know about her. She is no longer worthy of your time or mental energy. H didn’t go after her for the things you see on social media. He got some cheap thrills. Which now are hopefully over.

But I agree with Scout et al: a complete 180 is not realistic, he will crash and burn at some point, so steel your heart right now. That’s not to say he isn’t ‘real’ right now, but this Is the time to truly DB. Make him work to earn you back. Make yourself worthy, in every department. Mostly, if not all, for you. You are a queen and a catch and a prize. Remember that.

It’s OK for him to be remorseful and repentant and WORK at this for at least as long as you have been suffering. Don’t enable his return, you didn’t break him, don’t try to fix him (or pave an easy path to retuning to your family). The harder he has to work to earn his way back, the more he will appreciate the fruits of his labor.

I know I started this conversation a few posts back, and I haven’t read it anywhere specifically in the DR book, but we all, as humans, need to feel like we earn our way in the world. If it’s too easy to get to point A, maybe we should have been aiming for point Z! If point A was so attainable, then why not set our sight higher? Don’t be point A for your H. Be closer to point Z. Make him work for your love, companionship, company and trust again. The harder he works, the greater the prize (YOU!).

Hugs!
S

[LH19]

I think you are and have been driven by fear the entire time. You’re trying to get back the control and stability of the life you once had. In time I think you will find that it’s just an illusion. A lot of damage has been done the last 5 months. Take some time to really think about what you want.

[BlueSea]

LH - I hear your point, I may have been driven by fear before, but not any longer. There is calmness, I don't think about him or his moods any more. I really understand that he is on a journey and I am too. I am committed to the next 6 months, but I am leaving the ending open right now.
I feel the right thing to do is to try, and also to explore what is best for me. I am positive that I have made changes and open to making more - but - if he does not, or is not able to - then there is no point to continue the marriage because it will just continue to be dysfunctional and I do not want to go thru any of this again.

Sage - Thank you for the reminder to make this something he needs to earn, I mean really work for. I am not going to make this easy. I am being me. And I have woken up to his manipulation - the tears, the hugs, the love bombing - not working. I just continue what I am doing, calmly. I will watch his show, but not participate, and its quite the show sometimes. If he does not start counseling on his own, then there is no point to even wait for the 6 months. For where we are at right now, and if there is no efforts, then clearly asking him to leave is the next step. Thank for your advice on my journey~soooo appreciated

[AlisonUK]

BlueSea - is your H going to address his sexual assault of you in his IC? Do you feel safe?

I have been reading along with your thread and was so shocked and upset by that event - and scared for you - that I hardly knew what to say. That feels to me like such a huge huge deal - so much more so than his cheating (which of course I don't take lightly - I don't mean it that way) - it seems to me like if this is a man who is remorseful for raping you, he would be living apart from you, in sustained, deep therapy and some kind of domestic violence or sex offender perpetrator programme. That he would be taking full and total responsibility for his action, calling it what it is, and if he even imagined there was a 1% chance his decision to rape you was triggered by the supplements he was taking (I have no idea if those things are related) then he would be committing to never taking them again - lifelong abstinence.

I have no expertise or experience in this area but it seems to me this is a matter that outweighs all others. I wish you the very very best. My heart hurt when I read your thread and I am posting this here only because I worry about your safety and I think that perhaps dealing with the aftermath of a marital rape probably falls outside the remit of this board.

[BlueSea]

Alison, I genuinely appreciate your post!
We have talked about it and he is remorseful for that. I want to address this as honestly as I can, and it will offend some. Here is the deal for me: this was sex, I never should have put myself out there to an angry man, especially after one anger filled experience. I am an adult and am responsible for putting myself in a stupid/bad situation. He was CLEARLY wrong to do that. What he did was a display of anger and showing control and dominance - not pleasant to say the least. But, its just sex. It was over in a few minutes. I am sorry to sound so pragmatic - but its not like he cut off a limb. A hot shower and the thought, 'okay, not going to do that again' and 'wow is this guy mad' was as far as I went with it.
My sense of self is not wrapped around being penetrated - it was a transaction with my husband that simply did not go well. Lesson learned.

And that is how it is for me, because this is my experience. I totally leave everyone up to their own opinions about my experience. But, I certainly don't want to turn this into a debate on this topic (its just not in the realm of this board). Every woman has the right to feel how they want about this or their own experience, or what r / sex means to them, or what it means in the context of being married, etc. But, I am not feeling damaged by it in any way.

Bluesea

[Indy470]

Blue,

Im new here but just wanted to show some support to you. I read through your sitch and my heart goes out to you. I wish you all the best and I hope things heal. Whatever that may mean, I hope you get healing at the end of all this.

[AlisonUK]

Hi Bluesea

yes, I think you do have the absolute right to decide what this means to you and how you feel about it - I really do.

I also think that most angry men do not use sex - especially non-consensual sex - to express their anger. It's so far outside the bounds of normal behaviour - even angry, destructive behaviour - that in your shoes I would be looking for actions other than an expression of remorse to reassure me it would not happen again. Feeling remorseful is one thing - but if this is a way he shows control and dominance when he gets angry, you need to know he is taking action so that the next time he gets angry he doesn't do this again. I would expect at the very least he discloses his actions to his IC and enquires with whoever is prescribing him his supplements if this could have an affect and takes their advice. You have been advised by a professional not to have guns in the house. I worry that you are underestimating this man's capacity for violence. Normal men don't rape when they're angry.

Take care.

[BlueSea]

Thanks everyone, can we please close this particular topic related to my situation.
If anyone is on other divorce boards they find helpful - could you please share those with me here?
much thanks,
Bluesea

[LH19]

Blue I will keep it simple. ACTIONS.

[BlueSea]

LH - Duly noted, and I am on point standing back and watching, taking note, pulling back, waiting.

Steve - from your thread,

As long as a W is working at the MR then it can survive. But the minute a W gives up on the MR, she is ready to move on (in a lot of cases, not in all obviously), and the MR is in real trouble when the W gives up.

This is so true, I know it. And its happening, and with my letting go - it ALL goes. I have become impatient, and suspicious, probably wrongly assuming that he should know he should be doing more. How do you know when its time to move on or there is still life left in the marriage?

[SteveLW]

LH - Duly noted, and I am on point standing back and watching, taking note, pulling back, waiting.

Steve - from your thread,

As long as a W is working at the MR then it can survive. But the minute a W gives up on the MR, she is ready to move on (in a lot of cases, not in all obviously), and the MR is in real trouble when the W gives up.

This is so true, I know it. And its happening, and with my letting go - it ALL goes. I have become impatient, and suspicious, probably wrongly assuming that he should know he should be doing more. How do you know when its time to move on or there is still life left in the marriage?

When you can walk away, without regrets, and move on to an awesome life, you know you are ready to move on.

I'll let LH and others that have been through it before answer, but that is the advice I give to LBS that are moving towards pulling the plug.

One thing to remember Bluesea, it is something that R2C likes to say, never stop DBing! Fall back on the base DB principles. Even if you decide to D, you still GAL. You still work on 180s. You still work on being detached. That is what sets you up for an awesome life beyond your sitch, D or R!

[LH19]

How do you know when its time to move on or there is still life left in the marriage?[/b]

When one or both of you are not working together to make it better.

[BlueSea]

Been 4 days into this new normal for us....

I have been journaling and noting actions especially.
He makes a lot of effort in reaching out to me to talk, or start conversation - which I appreciate - but looking for 'action' (unless that is considered action) - he thought it was.
He has scheduled MC for us, and is scheduling IC for himself.
We went on a Starbucks run and had a dinner out (with the 16 daughter because it just gets awkward with conversation and such... and a burger dinner on the patio last night with daughter.
He will not say I love you, just noting.
He has fully cleaned the kitchen on the nights I leave it.
He makes efforts to come find me when its late and knows its when I will turn in.
We plan to go for a walk/trails this weekend together.
He has stopped drinking.
He is sharing with a good friend of his, and getting advice....point is, he is talking, thats big for him.
He is going to connect to his brother shortly.
We are doing a week long fast together... his idea...no idea. I think he wants to have me stress to see if all these changes are for real. (mindreading)

By no means are things great. He is still distant. And I do give him a lot of space still. When I do speak with him, he offers a lot of advice (which I take as a good sign) I see it as a guys way to show caring.

[BlueSea]

By no means are things great. He is still distant. And I do give him a lot of space still. When I do speak with him, he offers a lot of advice (which I take as a good sign) I see it as a guys way to show caring.

When I felt a boundary being crossed (on plain civility) I let him know that we are both on the fence now..so stop being an a@@hole - that doesn't accomplish anything - just be nice/kind- fake it if you have to - because whether its M or co-parenting - its an investment. We do have an occasional R talk. I have made changes for myself not to accommodate his behaviors and the expectation is that there will be changes on his part. He gets it, I have eaten my fair share of sh!t sandwiches, its time to see if there is something viable.

For my part
I make every effort to let go of anger and forgive. I make effort to turn towards, when I see him doing that, EVEN if its hard. When he extends his hand I take it. I am not over trying - but we BOTH have to push ourselves to do these things - we do not like each other right now, I think. And for where we are at, that is okay - you don't come out of this 'in like' - right now the history, the kids, the enmeshed life is holding us together (not fear LH).

It will evolve if we keep tending it. I refuse to play a role or put rose color glasses on, I am being me, no facades, we both have to go into this with open eyes.

[BlueSea]

Not much going on, sort of.

He is inviting me on his errands, doing things we did before...putter around a favorite store, pick up project items from Home Depot, watching a movie at home on the couch last night.

I see he is trying. And I am trying. What does that mean? Just turning towards each other whenever possible.
I laugh at his jokes.
I try to see his side of things - but also holding my side - again, the changes I made were not to accommodate him.
Its week 1 of a 6 month trial. It started off poorly, but picked up.

Blue

[SteveLW]

What are you requiring of him?

[BlueSea]

Thanks Steve - I am requiring:

Cut down on drinking / He has stopped drinking all together
Stop taking testosterone
Make efforts via verifiable actions (initiate activities like biking, walking, meander type trips)
Engage with me (talk to me kindly! start conversations)
Counseling (individual)
Transparency (answer questions, offer up more info, phone access)

Definitely suggest more if this list seems light.
I have no idea on what to do to make this marriage ship move forward. I am trying find an online program for ideas, potentially one by Gottman - he is here in Seattle, checking for upcoming workshops. And there is a Retrovaille (sp?) here in October, which I have heard is really good.

[SteveLW]

Thanks Steve - I am requiring:

Cut down on drinking / He has stopped drinking all together
Stop taking testosterone
Make efforts via verifiable actions (initiate activities like biking, walking, meander type trips)
Engage with me (talk to me kindly! start conversations)
Counseling (individual)
Transparency (answer questions, offer up more info, phone access)

Definitely suggest more if this list seems light.
I have no idea on what to do to make this marriage ship move forward. I am trying find an online program for ideas, potentially one by Gottman - he is here in Seattle, checking for upcoming workshops. And there is a Retrovaille (sp?) here in October, which I have heard is really good.

I see you are requiring IC. Is in it? And why is MC not also part of the requirements here?

[BlueSea]

And why is MC not also part of the requirements here?

Thanks for catching this. To be honest, I am still processing alot of anger. He has broken my trust and hurt me in so many ways:
Stole from me, gambled away 30k (confirmed, still pending checking on additional 30k)
Betrayal, betrayed me in the most intimate way with the affair
Broke me, by continuing the affair and forcing an open marriage
Hurt me physically, took advantage of me non-consensually and was forceful enough to cause trauma to my body

That is alot. And, he has not properly acknowledged any of the pain of the above points OR to what extent he has been so cruel and unkind and literally just a bully for the past 6 months. It took alot to bear that weight and I don't think he gets the incredible effort that took. My head is moving forward and turning towards him as best I can, as this is the right thing to do for this marriage... but my heart still hurts.

The man broke my spirit and I was in total grief and heartbroken for a long time - and he was such a JERK! I think its natural for me to be mad/angry...so I am dealing with this. I have way too much anger to effectively be in marriage counseling. I would stall the whole process, most likely would attack or push back on every point. He has a lot of issues - let him engage in IC first and possibly/hopefully will get to a place of ownership for his part... and then we can MC ...when I am ready to wholeheartedly engage in a healthy way.

[AlisonUK]

To add to your list, I would suggest that you can't really go any further with him until he takes total responsibility - verbally and with follow up actions (like registering at a domestic violence and sex offenders treatment programme) for the worst of his behaviour towards you. I'd also be looking for him to be paying back any money he stole.

I think your decision not to go to MC until he is taking responsibility for his abuse is a very very wise move on your part.

[SteveLW]

And why is MC not also part of the requirements here?

Thanks for catching this. To be honest, I am still processing alot of anger. He has broken my trust and hurt me in so many ways:
Stole from me, gambled away 30k (confirmed, still pending checking on additional 30k)
Betrayal, betrayed me in the most intimate way with the affair
Broke me, by continuing the affair and forcing an open marriage
Hurt me physically, took advantage of me non-consensually and was forceful enough to cause trauma to my body

That is alot. And, he has not properly acknowledged any of the pain of the above points OR to what extent he has been so cruel and unkind and literally just a bully for the past 6 months. It took alot to bear that weight and I don't think he gets the incredible effort that took. My head is moving forward and turning towards him as best I can, as this is the right thing to do for this marriage... but my heart still hurts.

The man broke my spirit and I was in total grief and heartbroken for a long time - and he was such a JERK! I think its natural for me to be mad/angry...so I am dealing with this. I have way too much anger to effectively be in marriage counseling. I would stall the whole process, most likely would attack or push back on every point. He has a lot of issues - let him engage in IC first and possibly/hopefully will get to a place of ownership for his part... and then we can MC ...when I am ready to wholeheartedly engage in a healthy way.

In that case you should be requiring IC for yourself too.

[SteveLW]

To add to your list, I would suggest that you can't really go any further with him until he takes total responsibility - verbally and with follow up actions (like registering at a domestic violence and sex offenders treatment programme) for the worst of his behaviour towards you. I'd also be looking for him to be paying back any money he stole.

I think your decision not to go to MC until he is taking responsibility for his abuse is a very very wise move on your part.

Agreed, though I do think some of that could be worked through and done in MC sessions.

[BlueSea]

Thanks Steve - IC for me, yes, soon - I know I am mad and it would just be a waste. I need to take some time for myself to simmer.

Thanks Alison for visiting again - I hear your concern - there are so many things on the table to deal with that I get overwhelmed. It will not be forgotten, it will be dealt with. It really is a delicate balance of moving forward, healing, discussing awful things, reaching out, turning towards, being patient because I see him trying.

Today was a good day overall - I saw actions (sized in H portions but actions). He is reading a book called 'out of the doghouse'. It was shared via family amazon and what I read, seems good.

I have no expectations - he could turn on a dime and take off in the middle of the night to be with her, or just decide he is done - and that would be tough - but what I can say is that I have done ALL I could, I can check the box on this and don't regret any of it.

[AlisonUK]

I'm not surprised you feel overwhelmed, Blusea. It IS a lot. Most relationships would not survive that type of behaviour.

Perhaps it would help to bear in mind that it is your husband's job to repair the damage he has done and work on himself so he does not do it again. I think that's why Steve85 is reminding you to concentrate on actions. His actions, not yours. You can certainly require a great deal from him before committing to him again if that is what you want to do. But it isn't your job to do the work.

[may22]

Hi BlueSea,

One of the basics of DBing is to GAL and focus on yourself. I feel like this would be an excellent time for you to refocus on you. I know it is hard because of the pandemic but what are at least small things you can do just for yourself, nothing to do with your H or your kids? I know even tiny things like a long bath or a new novel or watching what I want on TV without asking anyone else feels good. Taking time for yoga or a face mask or a long chat or Zoom cocktails with a friend. What are you doing for yourself, not in terms of watching his behavior, but just for you?

M

[BlueSea]

Thank you Alison and May - nice to have virtual friends on this thread for advice

Alison - Totally agree with you! It is his work- and all I do is measure his actions (to myself and in journaling). I do let him know that I am looking for actions. And he is on-point trying to show actions right now. But also, he is a guy, and needs some help in understanding how to move forward, so I do suggest things to him - and show appreciation for what he does do that moves us forward. I think we ladies could run circles around our men from an Emotional Intelligence stand point and we don't get that. I read some threads that really demonize the H, sometimes I don't think H's are even thinking at those levels. So, I get that he needs to do work - but I do as well - this is not a one person show - we both have to work at this.

May- I am all about GAL, went out last night for dinner with my son, just because. Every Sunday, I am out - dinner at a friends house or last Sunday a convertible drive with friends to a patio Mex bar for drinks and apps. I don't even considering it GAL'ing anymore, its just a way of being. I want to do something, I want to get out - I just do it or organize it with friends. I went for a walk/hike yesterday and was going, and asked H if he wanted to go (while I was headed out the door) he did, so we went.

Yesterday
H is making efforts, he is overshooting for sure - and thats okay. It will level out. He greets me in the morning and hugs (if I approach) with good nights. During the day, asking me about myself, how is my day, how am I doing - recognizing me when I come in the room. He talked to me last night about his remorse and the stupidity of all what went on from his part - how talking to me early on would have been the best and right choice - touching on several points (gambling, affair, conflict avoidance), also about what he is reading and how its helping him to understand better how hurt I really am from all this and what he needs to do to help me to get thru it all. It was a good talk. For me, mostly listening.

I mean this is all great - but again - I am cautious - I have a bit of PTSD around getting close to him, because he could pull out a bat and destroy me again (figuratively) at any time. He is on high boil, putting his engineering brain around this 'project' and is in guy fix it mode, thats fine, but I am not going to take this too seriously until a few more weeks in. I get that this is a marathon.

[BluWave]

Hello again friend,

I really sympathize with where you are. After BD we become hyper-focused on all the details surrounding if they will come back, what we can do to facilitate that, how we should behave/process/cope, etc, and so we lose site of the bigger picture. I think of that time as fight-or-flight mode. So during that heightened response we suppress a lot of our feelings and core beliefs. When our partner comes back and begins to recommit to the M, we start to feel secure and safe again. After the initial wave of relief settles, those suppressed emotions start to bubble up to the surface. It can be confusing and complicated to manage. This is one of the reasons that piecing a M back together again can be so challenging. I recall this time clearly. You are seeing his wrong doings and betrayals clearly for what they are. At the same time, you appreciate his positive efforts and small changes. You are walking a very fine line and a very long line of balancing 1. working together to understand and fix past problems and 2. moving forward and creating a healthier relationship. This is hard to do simultaneously. It is especially hard to do when emotional triggers, fear and mistrust are present. It took me and my H several years to navigate this. My H and I did several things including IC, MC, read books, Retrouvaille, and I can't say how much they helped anymore than the passing of time.

We just passed the 5 year mark. I cannot lie, it is still hard to reconnect and accept things will never be like they were the first 10 years together. Sometimes the best thing to do is just feel what you need to feel and accept how hard it is but trust and believe it will not be that way forever. Time does heal all. Shall I link the thread on piecing?

Blu

[BluWave]

Thread on Piecing:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832573&page=1

[BlueSea]

Thank you BluWave! your advice is so spot on, every time.

Your post is exactly what I needed to read at this time. I could not have said it better...

You are seeing his wrong doings and betrayals clearly for what they are. At the same time, you appreciate his positive efforts and small changes. You are walking a very fine line and a very long line of balancing 1. working together to understand and fix past problems and 2. moving forward and creating a healthier relationship.

I am caught in between hugging him and hitting him at any given second. The fact that he is so remorseful and kind to me during an emotional outburst makes it that much harder in a way. But, this is where I wanted to be, back in his arms. So I am grateful but at the same time mad as well as scared as well as deeply sad (that it will never be the same).

Like you said, I had my head down working so hard to break down the 'hatred wall' that I did not even consider the other side, reconciliation. I did read your thread, and thought - cr@p, that other side has its issues - but I put my head back down and said to myself I would deal with it when/if I got to that...and here I am dealing with that.

Just this morning, another revelation - so sorry I also lost an additional $12k in 2017. I spiraled around that. Not the money per se, which is gone and I can not do much about that, but that was 4 years ago! He was being pretty deceitful for a long time, what else is there? It made me sad/mad, of course. He wanted to talk, but one thing I have come to terms with is that I am not good at emotional regulation, so I just said I could not, that I was not in the right headspace and exited. We talked later when I was ready to engage. It was all about trust, lack of and rebuilding.

Right now, he is trying and I am trying. I have alot of hope that this will work out. I do feel disconnected from him right now, but I think that is natural right BluWave? Please tell me that you went thru this disconnected feeling, how long will it take to find that connection again?

Thank you for the link! I will check it out~

[BluWave]

Blue,

I feel you, sister. I truly feel you. You know I do if you have read my threads. This might be the hardest thing you will ever do. You want answers. I wanted answers too. I suffered and spun for years. Here is the problem, there are no answers and there are no guarantees. In any M. Why? Because none of us can predict the future in life or in a M. There is only one thing you can rest assured and that is that time does heal all. Think of a time in your childhood when you were hurting? You do not feel that way now and you have (hopefully) healed. Think of your first heartbreak. Think of a death of a loved one. .... These wounds do heal in time. And this one will too.

But, there is also work to do as you lick your wounds. I have no idea how long it will take to heal and rebuild this.. For me it has been about 4 years. Now I am at 5 years. It is still not perfect. Please read the piecing thread and reread it. See how much work it is? See how long it takes? And that is assuming that TWO people continue to do the work. Not everyone can or will. It is hard work.

With any crisis I have faced, there is one main thing that has got me through. The core belief that it will not always be this way. Trust and have faith that over time this too (the deep pain and fear) shall pass. You have two both have to exercise the most herculean patience man has ever known. You have to heal your wounds and work through your problems, but you also have to move forward and build a new M that is stronger than before. You will mess up often. You will have to keep getting up and dusting yourselves off and trying again. And again. And again.

Blu

[Kind18]

Hey BlueSea.

How are you going?