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Blue,

I think you handled it well and opened the proverbial cage door. Now you do nothing but give him space and then more space and even more space. At some point he is going to leave but that's ok.

At the same time, you have to build a life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of, full of fun activities, outside interests, and engaging friends. If you can do both of those things -- completely emotionally uncouple from him (fake it until you make it) and build an amazing life for yourself, he'll clamor to come back and if he doesn't you won't care. That's your only winning path out of where you are, but getting there is going to be uncomfortable, and more painful than you feel today, because it will go against your nature.

Blue, I'm very sorry you're here. Everything he told you about your faults was nonsense to justify his actions. When you then respond to his complaints you validate them, so he feels even more entitled to his actions.

You've been trying to "nice your way back" for the last several months.

It's not working, it will never work.

You cannot placate him, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.

You also cannot push him away by withdrawing support.

He has chosen his course of action, and as of right now, *nothing* you do will impact it.

Your shortest path back together is to go in the opposite direction.

You need to make things *worse* before they can get better

Are you willing to do that?

If not, you can expect many more months/years of the same thing you have now.

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What does it mean? It means nothing. It means everything. It means something in between. Bluesea, please do not fall into the LBS trap of trying to decipher every word and action. Whether he hugs you, whether he doesn't. Whether he stays, whether he goes. Whether his hug is brief and light, or long and tight. None of it changes what you should be doing.

And you handled this pretty well. I would have liked to see more validation. To be honest you only had to say "he was free to go whenever he wanted, that I was not making him stay, that he could walk out the door when he wanted" one time. Then listen and validate. "I understand you feel you need to leave." "So your are saying that you feel that you want to leave." Etc.

LBSs repeat themselves too much. I see so many LBSs here that feel that every time their WAS starts an R talk that they have to reiterate that "I don't want this, you do" type statements. So just a slight 2x4 related to you repeating that you can't make him stay, weren't making him stay, and that he could go anytime he wanted: should have stated it once, then listened and validated.

As far as the kids, he started the conversation with them, they said what they felt, there was no reason for you to try to control that. I think you did fine.

Now, here is what I think. He expected begging. Pleading, Crying. Anger. And when you gave him calm. Cool. In control of your emotions. He didn't know how to react except to repeat it. I think he was so shocked that your reaction was different than he had imagined, that he just wanted to make sure you understood that he was REALLY talking about leaving. This is exactly what I told you would happen. When a WAS "threatens" to leave, and you are on board with it, they are shocked and do not know how to proceed.

Also, he could have been using this as a manipulation attempt. "If I make her think I am leaving, if I speak to the kids as if that is my decision, then maybe I can get her to capitulate to what I want again, and that is to come and go as I please." And when you didn't respond with fear, doubt, and emotion, that you calmly told him he was free to go anytime he wanted, he realized that he was not going to be able to use the threat of leaving to get you to back down.

It is kind of like in my sitch. I initiated BD by confronting my W about her EA. When she realized she was caught, and that might mean that she couldn't continue the EA, she clobbered me with "I don't want to be married anymore". From that point forward, the entire conversation changed from the EA and her indiscretion, to "why do you want a D??". She knew what she was doing. I think she had planned on this misdirection in case I found out about the EA. So your WAH was looking to use the threat of leaving, since he new you were terrified of that in the past, to get you "back in line". So he could continue his less than clandestine behavior without threat of repercussions.

This is why I said when he threatened to leave, you should offer to help him pack. In fact, I kind of wish you had been more forceful related to WANTING him to leave. "You are free to leave anytime you want, I can't make you stay if I wanted to, and in fact, I would prefer that you do leave if you are going to continue behaving the way that you have." This would have made him realize that not only is he free to leave, but that you would prefer it over the way things have been. This would make him see how serious you were about not taking this lying down any longer. That you were ready to move on from him as he is today, unless he is willing to make radical changes and recommit to the marriage. I know you still struggle with this. You have a fear of him being out of the house, but really he has been emotionally gone for months. So that fear is irrational.

So overall, a solid B+. Which is way better than the Bluesea of just a few weeks ago would have done!


M(53), W(54),D(19)
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Steve - I finally see and agree, that he has been emotionally gone for a long time. It took me awhile to see this and catch up. If there is an opportunity to say this "I would prefer that you do leave if you are going to continue behaving the way that you have." I will say it.

LH -- Can you explain a bit more on your point here: "You need to make things *worse* before they can get better"

Do I bring up what are his plans to leave?

I really am not sure how to handle this situation when its mentioned to give him lots of space - does that mean I ignore him?

We had that huge conversation last night, how does one transition from that to giving space. It's almost like giving him the green light to stay here and keep us all miserable while he 'decides' whatever he is deciding. And, if he is going to leave anyway - it would help me get my life started if he actually did leave. Wouldn't one want to make it just a bit miserable for him to stay?---- or is the point that he has to make that decision himself?


thank you!
BlueSea


M:50 H:49
D:16 S:13
M:23 T:25
BD: Feb 25th 2020
EA/PA: Dec 2019 - June 11, 2020
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Originally Posted by BlueSea
LH -- Can you explain a bit more on your point here: "You need to make things *worse* before they can get better"

What I am saying is that IMO you need to separate or divorce.

He has issues that he doesn't want to address that you may or may not be exacerbating, and he doesn't believe in his heart that he can navigate back to "happy" with you.

As you probably know, the only way he's going to overcome that deeply held belief is for you to open the cage door and completely cut him free. If you engage in a relationship with him again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) He sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) He views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) He's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, he's going to walk again down the line, because he really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

Originally Posted by BlueSea
[b]Do I bring up what are his plans to leave?

I would give it some time.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
I really am not sure how to handle this situation when its mentioned to give him lots of space - does that mean I ignore him?

Don't be rude, don't be dismissive, don't be passive aggressive or antagonistic, just be uninvested.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
We had that huge conversation last night, how does one transition from that to giving space.

Whenever he's home you are out or doing something in another room.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
It's almost like giving him the green light to stay here and keep us all miserable while he 'decides' whatever he is deciding.

His mood should not effect yours at all.

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LH hit on most of it. I wouldn't start any more talks about the R or him leaving or staying. I believe you will get your opportunity as he will eventually bring it up again. Mostly you need to listen and validate, but feel free to throw in that your preference is for him to leave if he isn't willing to recommit to the marriage.

Now, as far as him actually leaving, it will have to be voluntarily. Most jurisdictions have protections in place for spouses that mean you cannot legally throw him out. You can ask him to leave. You can make it known you'd prefer he leave, but there may be legal ramifications of trying to throw him out. I would highly suggest you speak to a lawyer. It was one of the best things I did in my situation.

As far as what your options are. Bluesea, we tell LBS all the time that it is within your power to initiate separation and/or divorce. You can decide at anytime that you no longer want to be married to a lying cheater, who is also a pretty crappy father on top of it, and make that happen yourself. IN fact, I encourage LBS with spouses that are actively engaged in PAs unabashedly to move towards that place. Just be sure you are ready to be D'd, and not do it as a way of manipulating him. This is where IC can really pay dividends because it can help you with your GAL, 180s and detachment to get you in the place where you know you will be okay being D'd.

But overall I agree with LH. Take some time. Stick to the principle of not initiating R talks. WHen he does, say what you feel you need to say ONE TIME, then listen and validate. Get a consult with a lawyer if you haven't already so you know what next steps are and what your options are. And make sure to keep your poker face if he brings up leaving again or actually does leave. Your outward attitude should be "good riddance to bad rubbish" no matter what you are feeling on the inside.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
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LH, Steve - What is going on here?

I memorized your 3 points LH and very glad I did.
I adopted your attitude Steve, 'good riddance to bad rubbish'.

While I was getting ready in the bathroom - I was thinking thru all the advice, getting into that mindset completely, sort of putting on that armor/attitude for the day. And suddenly H shows up at the bathroom door. He says he wants to have a family meeting later in the afternoon.

Without stopping to look at him while I finished what I was doing, I asked him, 'what about?' H tells me that he wants to try at this marriage, he wants the family to know he wants to try. I turned towards him, non emotionally to listen - and he goes on to say that it would be easier and he feels that he has no choice, that he is afraid - not of the next few months, but of the years ahead and what that would mean but he is willing to be vulnerable, to try, to go to counseling and do whatever it takes. He does break down crying, so it took some time to get thru all that. All I did was nod, and tell him that I understood. And I just listened.

After he was done, I told him that he did have a choice and he should want to be in this marriage - not just fall back into by default because I did not want to go thru all this again later. I told him the LH 3 points that I expected from him:
1. consider me high value
2. to want to be in a relationship with me, over someone else - or being alone
3. he had to do win me back, doing whatever that took

He asked me to understand just a little, that he wants to want this - and will go to counseling, and cut down on the drinking and understands and agrees to those 3 points. I let him know we could talk later in the afternoon.

LH, Steve --- Really? this back and forth is very hard for me... I have distanced myself just enough that I don't fall for the tears and emotion so easily. Is this for real? Or is he just trying to stay?

How should I handle this? Counseling is a must for both of us, clearly, but how do we define what are the boundaries that if he does not try - we need to move on separately. Does he stay? Or would it be better if he was out of the house? (I know I can't make him go, but I think if I pushed it, he would.


I think now H and I are both in the same situation, trying to love someone that we no longer love.


Last edited by BlueSea; 07/07/20 05:17 PM.

M:50 H:49
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BD: Feb 25th 2020
EA/PA: Dec 2019 - June 11, 2020
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Blue,

You are wise to be cautious.

Two things.

Patience and actions.

You will need patience.

Actions will tell his true motive.

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Originally Posted by BlueSea
I think now H and I are both in the same situation, trying to love someone that we no longer love.

I 100% agree with this statement. Fear is keeping you both together.

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Bluesea, this happens sometimes. Especially when you get really good at detachment. Where the spouse is expecting certain reactions and behaviors, and you don't react. Then they start to rethink things.

Also, I think his kids reaction to him are having an effect on him. He thought, like most lying cheaters do, that he could do whatever he wanted and everyone would just go "oh well" and he'd have no repercussions. Some of them don't care at the time and regret it later. Others realize what they are set to lose, and want to try to correct it immediately.

So I think the exchange last night has him questioning himself. So I think he may really be considering ending the affair, recommitting back to the marriage because of what he stands to lose. Lots of WAS threaten to leave, and when you call their bluff, they really have no where to go! One of the things my W said was that when she said she wanted a D, wanted to get a job, and wanted to get her own place, that if I had thrown her out right then she would have been screwed. So you do have to be careful here.

He might be buying time. Or he might be sincere. The problem is that As are addictions. And most people do not just quit addictions cold turkey and move on. That is difficult for the addicted person to do without help.

The good news is that this changes NOTHING that you should be doing. GAL, 180s and continue to work on detachment. Do not overreact to this. Do not celebrate. Do not count your chickens. Give it time. Give him space. Give yourself time and space! Que Sera Sera. What will be, will be.


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Hi Bluesea,

I just want to make a suggestion that you can take or leave, but I'm still thinking about what happened a couple of weeks ago and the fear (and utter bravery) I felt in your posting about it. And the other situation you shared more recently where he flipped out about the alcohol bottle. It feels to me that there is maybe a little more going on here than just whether or not he wants to work on the M or not, and maybe you both need a little space for him to detox and for you to feel safe again. It is great that he is saying he wants to want the M and he's willing to do counseling etc, but maybe he could *show* you that he is serious by taking some time away from home-- even just a week or two-- to stop drinking, get into IC, getting the firearms out of the house, stopping the gambling, transparency on what he's spent and what his plans are to fix this, etc. It isn't necessarily just that he is d!cking you around with the PA and committing/not committing to your R. He's done a LOT of pretty destructive things beyond an affair that need to be addressed.

Just because he wants a meeting today doesn't mean you need to make any decisions today. Maybe all you have to do today is listen and validate and say I'll need to think about that, and spend some time really thinking about what you need and want before making any decisions.

Hang in there, Blue. You've got this.

xoxo M


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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