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Hi Pommy,

A thought. Can you still lean on the same things that helped center you in the awful time during the EA and during the S? GAL, focusing on being present, with the children, etc? I think one of the benefits of DBing is that it allows you to start to rely on yourself for your own fulfillment and happiness. It is OK to be sad that your H had an EA. You deserve it. Let yourself feel that grief and let it move through you. Accept that you have doubts and insecurities about what this all really means and what might happen in the future... and if you can, try to let go of your anxieties about what might or might not happen, when or if you'll get your questions answered, when or if you'll trust him again fully. Sit with where you are right now. Be happy that he's home, happy for your kids, and take it one day at a time.

I also had all of those same thoughts about the A and why and would I ever fully know and trust, and that is why I finally pushed the transparency talk (which wasn't fully transparent after all). I was worried about my own healing and ability to reengage with the R wholly if we didn't deal with these things. But, I don't think my H was ready for it. He just said to me last night that to him, coming to me this past weekend to tell me the full story that he hadn't said before was him WANTING to share it, not him responding to a request (=demand) from me. The difference was that before he felt I was telling him what to do. Now he is making his own decision to tell me these last things, and he's willing to tell me anything more I want to know though he also respects my decision not to need to know more about things as well. I truly don't know if there is anything to this at all. But maybe you can take something away from my failure... continuing to let him come to you on his own terms might still be a good path, and working to manage yourself as best you can.

xx M


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Originally Posted by Pommy99
I can’t tell the difference between brushing things under the carpet and accepting that what’s he’s told me might be as much as I’ll ever know, and moving on. Of course what he’s told me might be the truth and everything else (e.g me thinking there must’ve been some physical interactions at some point) is all in my head. I feel like I want to ask the same questions over and over until I get an answer where I can say “I knew it” and I feel like not getting the answers I want is me brushing it under the carpet ( or perhaps letting him get away with never having to divulge more). I’m not sure if that makes sense, but I feel it is very destructive for both me and the relationship if I can’t let go of those thoughts and doubts. I don’t know how to deal with it.

I’m feeling very hurt today about the fact he thought he was in love with someone else, and that for years I’ve felt like I’ve had to fight for his love and affection, and yet it was seemingly so easy for him dish it out to someone else.


There seems to be a thread among all the spectrums of infidelity thought leaders (I'm thinking Esther Perel on one end of the spectrum and someone like Shirley Glass on the other) and no matter if your school of thought is that affairs are 'normal' or 'abnormal' human deviations, the process of moving on from infidelity includes as much disclosure as the betrayed needs to feel safe in the R again. So you should have a right to the knowledge of what happened. However, what is less defined among these experts is what timeline the disclosure happens on. Some betrayers can't get on board with disclosure until a MC pushes it. Some give it willingly. But what it really comes down to is whether or not you, Pommy, need full disclosure to move further into your trust and piecing of your R. Maybe that needs to go on your list of things you need to move forward or for H to move back in? I don't think it's asking too much and it may help with your healing. But the caveat here is that he can't withhold details. And you have to believe him. Which takes a huge amount of trust on both sides, trust that barely exists after an affair. But if full disclosure will be less destructive to the R in the end, then your H deserves to know that this is an important part of piecing for you.

Also, a small amount of general under-the-rug-sweeping isn't a totally bad thing. You could spend the next 15 months hashing out all the details of who-what-why-when-how your M got to this point and lose the opportunity for some real growth and fun in your M. So maybe creating a list of the big things, prioritizing them in order of importance to you and your R and focus on those? Maybe it's just one thing: the EA. Or maybe it's a few different things. And H should have his own list (although it sounds like many of our H's have spent plenty of time airing their grievances in the M to us, so maybe take those at face value and work from that).

Thinking of you Pommy, thanks for being there for me!

xx
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May, Sage thank you for your thoughts.

I went away for 5 days last week with the girls ( to see my parents). H was very attentive and sent lots of messages and called frequently. The messages meant a lot, as did the welcome home. My mother is a toxic influence and always has been, and has never hesitated to show her disdain for H. This is her issue...she treats my father the same. Until I started IC 12 months ago, I was never able to stand up to her, preferring to avoid the confrontation. So I stood back and allowed her to belittle, condemn, criticise and make H feel worthless, just like she does her own H. Last year I felt so much hatred towards her for the fact that my marriage had failed whilst hers was still intact. Not just because of her treatment of H but because of how I grew up thinking that was how to behave in a marriage. I have made so much progress in standing up to her in the last year. She will readily play the victim when the spotlight shines on her. She is manipulative and controlling and right now she is telling the children that it will be wrong for me let H move back home. I can see this for everything that it is. I really dislike her and I’m angry at how she still tries to control me (such as begging me not to let H come away with me and the girls for a family trip next week, or telling me that I shouldn’t let the children see H during lockdown in case he gives them the virus) and feeding the children with doubts about recon.

I know the old me would have done what I could to appease her, but I feel so much stronger in myself in being able to set boundaries and knowing what I will accept and not accept. I have learnt a lot in 12 months.

So H and I have had a nice few days but today I felt completely flat. I had bad dreams last week Sage, where H told me he’d changed his mind again and I asked if it was because of Her and he said no, but then I found a load of texts on his phone in my dream. This is a replay of what has happened in reality So I explained to H that I was having bad dreams and he did his best to reassure me. H said I seemed distant today and I told him that I am struggling to let go of some of the things from December. I had been thinking about May”s situation around disclosure (masking the truth) and WF‘s comments about her H not having protected himself from the possibility for OW to make contact. So I asked H tonight about it. He said he hadn’t told me verbatim everything between them but there was nothing that would shock me (May!!!!!!!) that I didn’t know already. I asked how he was going to protect himself from that scenario... if EAP reached out and said she missed his company/was having a tough time with her own H/needed advice etc. I know that H is too nice to ignore or not respond. And he said he would just exchange pleasantries but not invite further interaction, not let it become a situation where they shared jokes etc. And that he would tell me if she contacted him. He said previously he encouraged the situation and now he wouldn’t encourage it. For some reason I don’t doubt for one minute that she will be in touch, once she knows he’s spending time back home (and she will know, because they have some mutual friends, and she is controlling and manipulative). I’m not sure how I feel about this response from H. I guess I fear that we get back into a boring routine and she reaches out wanting contact and so it begins again.

It all still feels a bit weird. I haven’t invited H back home and he said my demeanour today was making him feel anxious ( hello, welcome to the world of anxiety!!) . I think the pressure from my mum and the bad dreams are making me feel uneasy. I also feel that once he moves back in we’ll revert to the old dynamic, whereas at the moment we’re still separated and I’m in control of the R . That’s not to say I want to control him or the M but living apart stops an immediate return to the old dynamic. We have been more intimate and it’s felt natural but today I have these doubts that I’m not all those things he said he wanted (which in some ways I don’t care about...I’m me and he either accepts it or he doesn’t) but in other ways I think that he made it clear he didn’t accept it last year so I’m on a road to failure and setting myself up for a fall.

H always told me I’m an over thinker, and tbh, it’s been over 4 weeks since he said he wanted to come home and I’ve avoided the overthinking ,and it’s been fun and relaxed. I guess it’s the magnitude of the next step ...all or nothing, no going back, etc. I’ve wanted nothing more for the last year than to save my M but now it’s on a plate I’m like eeeeeek!!!


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
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Hi Pommy,

Thanks for the update-- it is so good to hear how you are doing!

I understand your uneasiness. Just a couple of random thoughts:

Quote
I guess it’s the magnitude of the next step ...all or nothing, no going back, etc.

Don't necessarily think of it like this-- it is a step in your journey. Of course you want to be 110% solid if you let him back not just because of your own mental health but for your children too. I totally get this. But it isn't necessarily the point of no return forever.

With your mom... I think it is huge that you are able to see that dynamic between the two of you and be able to stand up for yourself and your H in this context. It is really, really hard to do that with your mom. I have a much less developed version of that with my own mom, who is relatively controlling and has a hard time seeing things from other people's shoes. When she flips out she flips out big time. But nothing I can do can change her, and I've come to accept that and disengage when she tries to mow over my boundaries. I remember reading in Gottman (I think it was Gottman) that the couple needs to be there for each other, even when in-laws try to interfere. This made me think a lot about both my own R with my mom and my R with my MIL, and how damaging to the R it can be to feel like your spouse is siding with their mom over you. I'm glad you are seeing all this and setting and enforcing boundaries.

On the EAP situation... Pommy of course this is my own situation speaking so please ignore it if it isn't helpful. But hearing him say the exact same thing my own H did about nothing being shocking gives me the creepy crawlies. Also, my H said he would let me know if she reached out and then... he didn't and then calls her when she texts that she's had major trauma in her life. I think my H is in waaaaaaay deeper with his AP than yours ever was with his, but I think there is still that whole fantasy other life element that is just so attractive to them somehow. It was so compelling to your H (even if not really attached directly to the EAP by the time this came around) that he took the big step of MO of your house.

Things will be hard when you get into piecing. And if he happens to be down or sitting in the discomfort of examining his own issues and shortcomings right as she reaches out, are you sure he will have the willpower to turn away? Or will he just check back in to see how she's doing, make sure she's OK, etc... and then what? I just feel like every single book on this subject says that the ONLY way to get past this is 100% cold hard NC, blocking on phones and social. You not doubting for one minute she will be back in touch... I think you have to deal with that worry decisively before you feel OK about inviting him back.

And I would also just say to listen to yourself. Remember how Alison worried she let her H come back home too early? Maybe re-read her thread and Blu's about that decision point if that is helpful. Listen to your own intuition. I'm going to guess that the anxiety about taking that step of allowing him back will never totally go away, but maybe there needs to be a bit more of a solid plan to convince you that things will be different this time, that the EAP is gone forever, that he's committed to doing the hard work before you can feel OK with taking that step? What about a single visit to an MC to help you guys sort out a plan?

You're in such good shape, Pommy. You've got this.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Originally Posted by may22
Things will be hard when you get into piecing. And if he happens to be down or sitting in the discomfort of examining his own issues and shortcomings right as she reaches out, are you sure he will have the willpower to turn away? Or will he just check back in to see how she's doing, make sure she's OK, etc... and then what? I just feel like every single book on this subject says that the ONLY way to get past this is 100% cold hard NC, blocking on phones and social. You not doubting for one minute she will be back in touch... I think you have to deal with that worry decisively before you feel OK about inviting him back
The thought of him being in contact with her is not sitting well with me at all and I do feel I need to have a further discussion on this. I would like him to block her on his phone and whatsapp although I havent yet talked about this. His view is that if she reached out he would exchange pleasantries but keep her at arms length. What does that mean? That it's ok to check in on each other and say hi when they feel like it, or to simply resopnd every time she reaches out? To me that's not OK. I dont see any reason for them to maintain contact at all if he's committed to working things out with me. He should be protecting his marriage shouldnt he, and not worrying about hurting her feelings. In my view it would better to nip it in the bud now (i.e. block her number) rather than wait for a situation to develop whereby it becomes awkward to break contact. She knows full well that she was tapping into a married man, and therefore shouldnt be in any way surprised/hurt if she cant get hold of him.

I have read through Alison's threads from about 12 months ago and I've got as far as November. There is so much good advice and so many great questions in there. I do need to read it more slowly and absorb and reflect on the content however.

At the moment, I'm confused, I'm questionning whether recon is the right thing to do, I'm still heavily clouded by the events of the last 12 months. I dont feel ready to move forward with letting him come home because of my own fear that we will slip into old ways, and my lack of trust. I do like the idea of MC/couples therapy to get us moving forwards.

I really want to feel like I've got this but truth is I dont - I feel like i did 6/9/12 months ago, where every day was filled with anxiety and uncertainty, and the R being on my mind 24/7.

Thanks for your support May x


Last edited by Pommy99; 07/02/20 12:24 PM.

M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
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Pommy, you bring up a really good point.

So when I was in my knowledge gathering phase in the initial months of my sitch, I found a lot of different theories about how to handle As. Some of the 'experts' said to ignore the A, and to just do things that rekindled your connection to your S. Then there was the hardline of "there can be no R while there is a third party involved." And lots of in between.

One of the experts used to repeat a lot that "the problem in the MR is not THE problem". The point being that the A was usually the symptom of deeper issues in the MR. And rather than focus on the A, you focus on the deeper issues and then A will then just go away.

I tend towards the "there can be no R with a third party involved" mindset, because otherwise the LBS trying to work on the underlying issues results in a lot of pressure and pursuit. And by time BD rolls around the time for pressure and pursuit are long passed.

I would guess that there are some folks that are successful in Ring by focusing on the underlying issues, but I think that % is probably a lot lower than the DB approach. I've often stated that if you DB perfectly after BD, from the get-go, then you have about a 50/50 chance of moving to Ring and piecing. Every mistake, setback, and poor DBing move you make lowers that %. The problem is not that DBing doesn't work, the problem is that very few LBSs DB very well.Then we get newcomers that look at all of the active sitches here and go "so few end in R!". Well that is because the people that tend to post here are the ones that tend to struggle with DBing the most.

Lots of good DBers that are able to turn their sitches around by backing off and removing all pressure and pursuit, GAL like crazy, 180ing on their poor behavior (including getting into IC!), and detaching really well usually get what they need to learn from the forum and we do not hear from them again. Kitcat is an example of this. She came here a few years ago, was able to DB her way out of her sitch, only to revert back (180s need to be PERMANENT! which is why IC is mandatory) and find herself back in the same situation.

While KC unfortunately didn't save her MR long-term, if you go look at her original threads you see that once she moved to R and piecing, she left the board. I think this happens A LOT. A few of us that moved to Ring and piecing stick around afterward, but I think we are in the vast minority.

So, DBing, including sticking to your core values, is a must if you are to have any chance at Ring and piecing. Some of the vets here hate when I start talking percentages, but I do it to highlight the importance of DB. If you DB well, you can get yourself close to a 50% chance of Ring and piecing. If you don't and apply a lot of pursuit and pressure then that % drops precipitously to less than 1%.

Note, the 50% thing is the number of sitches that can potentially get a chance at Ring and piecing. In a lot of sitches, by time that happens the LBS no longer wants it and have moved on themselves.

Last edited by Steve85; 07/02/20 01:08 PM.

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Hey Pommy,
I saw that you were on the other day I was wondering how things are going. Hope all is well with you and yours.
xoxoxoxo

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Yes, Pommy, me too! G&T thinking of you!


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Steve, thanks for your great advice. It did give me plenty to think about, and I've been musing over things the last couple of weeks. I've found it hard to come back to the boards because I have a tendency to overthink and it really is hard to focus on positivity and foregiveness when so much of what I read brings my guard right back up again and takes me back to thoughts of deception and mistrust. I'm trying to find balance somewhere between hopeful and mindful.

Wayfarer, May, thanks for checking in on me! It's been nearly 8 weeks since H asked me to take him back. Things have been progressing steadily and we have been spending more and more time together. We had a week away last week, as a family, in a cottage in the S.W - back to the land of my grandparents. It was really nice and we all enjoyed ourselves. Since we have been back, H has spent all his time here and has now notifed his rental agency that he will not renew his lease. I guess that makes us fully 'back together' again, although I have not put my rings back on - I want him to ask me to start wearing them again.

We had one big argument whilst away. In the lead up to the holiday, H had mentioned a couple of times that he wanted me to be able to go to the beauty salon regularly, spoil myself. I've never been one to have regular facials, spa trips, etc, but I'd regularly get my hair and nails done (although equally my expensive haircut would often be scraped back into a pony tail - typical busy mum style, I guess). He had also said he wanted to take me shopping to buy dresses and underwear. He had said it was really important to him - I had thought he meant that it was important to him that I put myself first and pampered myself, but the more he mentioned it, the more I started thinking that it was about how I look, etc. H said something on holiday that really riled me about women's looks. He said my reaction showed signs of the old me (someone he didnt like) and I asked if that was the old me who was never good enough for her husband? I accused him of trying to mould me into his EAP, because I'm sure she was everything I wasnt. We talked it through, he apologised if he'd upset me, but ever since then I've been carrying this feeling that I'm not enough. And I've always felt like that in our entire marriage. But I also now have realised that this is something I bring from my childhood, because nothing I ever did was good enough for my mother (and it still isnt - whilst we were away I visited the cemetary and placed some flowers on my grandparents' grave. I sent my mum a photo and she texted back to say the stems were too long and I needed to make them a bit shorter!! I didnt reply and I didnt shorten the stems. In fact, I blocked her on my phone for the rest of the week, as i was getting sick of the incessant texts telling what time high tide was, or where we should go for a day trip, how to get there, what to wear, etc. I definitely have major issues that I need to work through in regard to that relationship.)

I may have misjudged H's motives and it is something I need to talk to him about. He hasnt dared mention salons or clothes shopping since. We patched up after the argument but for the last few days I have been carrying this fear in me that I will never be the wife he wants me to be. Yet I cant fault his behaviour towards me at the moment - he is being loving, affectionate, tactile, complimentary, asks my opinion on everything, we are having regular sex, he talks about our future. He is being the H I always wanted and I'm still scared i'm not enough. Last night I had bad dreams and he held me tight and asked me to tell him what it was about. I didnt say anything. He asked again this morning but I havent told him. It was about him and EAP having secret phone calls and him lying to me about who it was on the phone. I really want to let go of these things and I dont know why I am finding it so hard to move on from the hurt, lies and deceit. I really want to be able to forgive and not throw it back in his face for evermore.

Right now, with the fact that he is 'almost' moved back home, I feel scared that we are going to go right back to where we were before he left, that nothing will have changed. I do know that we have it in our power to make sure that doesnt happen, but I dont know what needs to happen for me to shake off these feelings of insecurity. I dont know what I need from him to make me feel that I am enough - I'm trying to work that out.

All in all, however, I feel that we are in a good place right now.


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020
Recon #2: since Nov 2020
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Pommy try reframing what he ask you - men are attracted to woman who take care of themselves. NOW, don't jump on me as I'm not stating it always has to be physical appearance or always looking 100% on point.

What happens when Pommy does something for Pommy? Whether its your hair, nails, you snuck away and read a book for pleasure, you went on a nature walk because YOU wanted to... when Pommy puts herself first from time to time what happens? Your confidence goes WAY up - that's attractive.

Your husband is making suggestions because he wants you to feel good about yourself. AND, perhaps the fact that he wants to go with you to pick out dresses/underwear... perhaps he finds that to be a sexy activity!!! Its fun, I will say when my H would let loose and pick things out for each other :-)

Its hard to not make your mind go to the first negative but take a moment and reframe --- maybe pick up the Empowered Wife and give it a read. Its quick and you may find it helpful.

Glad things for you are swinging your direction. :-) Happy DB!

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