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Hello lovely people. I was hoping to avoid posting my story for as long as possible because I didn’t want to make it real. But I’ve been divorce busting for a month or two now, and I’m getting to the point where I could use some advice.

I’m going to start big to small instead of writing a narrative.

My wife and I are both 37. We’ve been together 15 years, married 8. We have two boys, 5 and 2. I work, she is a stay at home mom. Things have been going downhill since our youngest was born 2 years ago.

She dropped the bomb on me 4 months ago, just before lockdown, although it wasn’t much of a bomb the way things have been going. “I love you but I don’t see any way for this marriage to succeed, because you want sex/intimacy and I don’t ever again. I want a divorce.” Later that night when seeing how distraught I was, she walked it back by saying “I didn’t say I was GOING TO, just that I want it right now.”

Then lockdown together with our two boys, and deep financial and logistical problems. I played it very low key for over a month and things seemed to be cooling. But I finally had to confront (kindly) her about her behavior/rudeness to me (on air with my boss), and she reiterated she “doesn’t see this going anywhere and wants a divorce.” I finally said, ok, can we at least not use lawyers? And she stopped cold, later walking it back that she “ still hopes this has a happy ending.”

That’s the framework. Some details:

My wife is deeply depressed. I didn’t realize how badly until 7 months ago. She has become increasingly explosive and erratic in the last 2 years, blaming me for everything in her life and gaslighting me that it’s all my fault. Her depression has been going downhill for 6 years (since first pregnancy), with a “cry for help” about 3 years ago that shook me.

This is a complete 180 from her personality before kids (5 years): sweet, kind, caring if somewhat aloof and timid. It’s almost a Jekyll/Hyde. She is a stranger to me.

I’ve done my best to research postpartum depression, chronic depression, trauma (her father is terminal and there is a fatal car accident in her past), and to become less anxious by embracing meditation, detachment, and positive thinking. She seems to hate me all the more for it, and she has gone deeper into rage. Our oldest son is special needs and also falls into the rage territory (throwing, hitting, swearing) and is a handful on good days, which has added to our stress. Plus no support network.

So that’s where we are now. I know there are details I’m leaving out.

We are in lockdown limbo. She is kind and caring to the kids, touches them and says lots of I Love Yous. Will not touch me or say anything affectionate. However, she still does nice things for me (brings me a blanket, makes me tea, etc) and constantly asks me to join in joy with the kids (“Daddy, look at what junior can do!” Also, “Junior, give daddy a big kiss, he needs it.”). We are also planning a move soon, and despite saying she wants a divorce, all her planning talk is as a family (“oh, we can have Christmas morning at such-and-such! Finally be able to do to as a family.”)

I’ve been concentrating my efforts on DBing and, most recently, being the lighthouse/picnic and detaching. But I am very, very confused. I’m having trouble knowing if I’m being the lighthouse, or being cold. It’s tough when she’s so erratic, angry, and blaming. I don’t know if I should be supportive, or distant.

TL,DR; kind gentle distancer wife turned angry and bitter after having kids. She bounced back after first kid, but isn’t coming back this time. Normally logistically-minded partner seems to have her head in the sand about finances and marriage decay. Says she wants a divorce every time I stand up against the rage, but then walks it back. Makes plans for togetherness in the future, but seems happy having a completely disconnected marriage with no touching or closeness, though she promotes deep closeness with the kids. Is kind to me at a distance, but fights back any attempts to improve the marriage, and won’t move to actually split. Everything is “my fault.” Color me confused.

I am committed to the marriage. I want my wife back - the real one, not this person who has taken her place since we had kids. Until recently I’ve been the “do anything, be anything” type of fixer but that has only pushed her further away and she walks all over me with rage and passive aggression. My boys are high needs and they definitely need a cohesive family and at least one stable parent, so I’m doing everything I can to hold the family together, for them. It’s not a clear-cut case - if she wanted out, we could make that happen. But she’s so depressed and swinging wildly that I can’t tell what is going on, I only know that I have to endure this if the family is to have any chance.

Last edited by job; 10/18/20 02:26 PM. Reason: added Part 1 to subject title
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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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Hi Hoch,

Sorry you're here... this is hard in the best of circumstances and it sounds like you're in a really tough spot.

Is your wife in IC?


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Hoch,

Welcome to the board. And I am very sorry you are going through this. However, most of us have had something similar occur so we can understand and help you.

My first thing is to caution you on trying to find a "reason". I see a lot of "My wife is deeply depressed." "I’ve done my best to research postpartum depression, chronic depression, trauma (her father is terminal and there is a fatal car accident in her past)," Humans, and especially we guys, think that if we can diagnose a cause, then we can fix it. This is why we make good mechanics and repair men! Something is amiss, find a root cause. Then mitigate the cause.

Unfortunately, with these kinds of situations, that is not how things work. And looking for such a fix will cause you to put your hope in the wrong things, cause you to do the wrong things, and to put your efforts into the wrong areas. For instance, May asked if your W is in IC. However, you need to be careful not to suggest she goes to IC. That is focusing on her. Trying to fix her. Instead, you lead by example. You go out and GAL. Recapture that guy that caused her to be attracted to you in the beginning! You work on self-improvements (180s). One of the best ways to self-improve is to get yourself into IC. And then you take Cadet's advice and you detach. Learn what loving detachments is. More importantly, learn what it is not. And then you do what it is and not what it isn't. (Hint: It isn't ignoring or stonewalling her!)

Finally, you stop looking for the right thing to say or the right thing to do to snap her out of it. There are no magic bullets. If their were then this forum wouldn't exist. There would just be a one line web page saying: "DO/SAY this to talk your W out of Ding you!" Unfortunately, these things are more complex than that.

AS far as:

" I played it very low key for over a month and things seemed to be cooling. But I finally had to confront (kindly) her about her behavior/rudeness to me (on air with my boss), and she reiterated she “doesn’t see this going anywhere and wants a divorce.” I finally said, ok, can we at least not use lawyers? And she stopped cold, later walking it back that she “ still hopes this has a happy ending.”"

A few things. First, drop your fear of using lawyers. When your transmission in your car goes, you call in a specialist don't you? Same thing with D. Divorce is a legal proceeding, and you need to call in the experts. One of the best things I did in my sitch was to consult an attorney.

Next, do not use "confronting her about behavior/rudeness" to you as an excuse to have an R talk. One of the first rules of DB is no R talks! Avoid them like the plague. If she starts one you listen, and validate. Please study the validation thread Cadet linked to you. It is an amazing diffusing tool. R talks will get you no where.

If she is being rude you simply, calmly say: "I refuse to be talked to that way/treated that way." Then end the exchange. Go out for a drive. Go hang out with a buddy. Something. You cannot control how she behaves but you can refuse to be subject to it.

Most of the time, LBSs see this behavior.....BECAUSE THEY ARE INTERACTING WITH THEIR WAS TOO MUCH!! This is what GAL is for. You should be limiting your interactions with her. If you aren't spending time with your kids (whether she is there or not) you are out being busy!! DO not underestimate the power of GAL.

Finally, you have one goal. REMOVE ALL pressure an pursuit. You should be weighing ever interaction you are tempted to have with her. If it is pressure and/or pursuit in the slightest, then do not have it with her! (Hint: 99.9999999% of the interactions you are tempted to have with her are pressure and/or pursuit!) When you feel you need to ask her something, tell her something, take her something, do something for her, etc, ask yourself: is this pressure and/or pursuit? If it is, then do not do it!

Remember, doing nothing IS doing something. You will feel compelled to act. Doing nothing is acting!


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Thank you all so much for replying. I knew I made the right decision to post here.

Cadet, thank you, and I am voraciously reading everything on that list.

May22 - yes, both my wife and I are in IC. She only recently started (6 months), but I’ve been going consistently for 5 years. I’m a firm believer in Ic, and I’ll admit that I pretty seriously twisted her arm to get her to go, coming off a few months of her yelling at everyone in the house and staying up all hours. That was one of the last times I pushed my agenda, which I now realize is not nearly as helpful as backing off.

Steve85 - thank you for your kind words, and I’m taking them all to heart. I’m falling back into that beginner’s mindset, and seeing that my tendency to fix things has definitely been causing problems. Largely I’ve been focused on “fixing” because the dire logistical challenges our small family is under requires two people to fix, and watching her unravel just when I need her help (to keep us from things like bankruptcy, eviction, and job loss) has been heartbreaking. But you’re right - it’s not helping.

Some thoughts I’m having right now:

I had never considered it, but could this be a MLC for her? Because it’s not just her wanting to leave me, she’s wildly inconsistent. It makes me wonder if I would have success with the MLC strategies.

Mostly I’m wondering how I should be interacting day to day. I’ve read and re-read the detach posts, but in practice it’s difficult to know how to respond. If she makes me tea, do I make tea for her? She interprets my limited responses as being angry, when I’m not. She ignores me completely, but then wants me to pour over joyful baby photos and videos with her.

I feel like metaphorically she’s saying “I want nothing to do with you. Let’s go see a movie.”

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Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.


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Originally Posted by Hoch

I had never considered it, but could this be a MLC for her? Because it’s not just her wanting to leave me, she’s wildly inconsistent. It makes me wonder if I would have success with the MLC strategies.


Why does this matter? All of the "strategies" you should be employing should be focused on you, not her. That is the point of detaching. Taking the focus off of her, and putting it on to you. YOU CANNOT DO OR SAY ANYTHING TO SAVE THE MR. That is the biggest learning that LBSs learn by DBing. If she wants a D you will get D'd. And nothing you say or do will stop that. So whether it is depression, an MLC, or she just suddenly flipped her cookie, none of it matters.

One anti-D expert I read going through my sitch said it best: MLCs to the one going through it is not a crisis at all! To them it is an awakening. To them they feel they've never thought clearer before! So you need to realize that. What is a crisis to you is something amazing and profound to her!

Originally Posted by Hoch

Mostly I’m wondering how I should be interacting day to day. I’ve read and re-read the detach posts, but in practice it’s difficult to know how to respond. If she makes me tea, do I make tea for her? She interprets my limited responses as being angry, when I’m not. She ignores me completely, but then wants me to pour over joyful baby photos and videos with her.


Hoch, my W was the same way. When I really got good at detachment she would constantly ask me "what's wrong?" or "is everything okay?" I would cheerfully respond with a "Nothing at all!" or "Yep, things are good!" See, here is the thing. When a WAS tells us they want a D, they expect us to be sad, angry, upset. They expect pressure and pursuit. So when you flip that script and act "as if", it throws them for a loop. The better I got at detachment the more I could see my W questioning if she really wanted a D. The more she became interested in what I was thinking and feeling. The more she started to, due to the lack of my pressure and pursuit, pressuring and pursuing me! This is not new stuff, Hoch. Read the distance-pursuit thread. Continue to study detachment. Being healthily and lovingly detached is not just something you do to save your MR. It is how you should be in your marriage too! Google: "self-differentiation in marriage" for an understanding of it.

Originally Posted by Hoch

I feel like metaphorically she’s saying “I want nothing to do with you. Let’s go see a movie.”


She may very well. One of the things my W said (remember, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do!) that looking back was something I can say now was true, was that from minute-to-minute she didn't even know what she wanted! You could see the battle waging within her. If I broke DB rules and started an R talk, I always got my grapes crushed! But if I remained detached, she would talk about future plans. Or future things she wanted us to do. "We should invite so and so over sometime." Or, "I think we should build a gazebo on the property some time."

This is why we often tell LBSs that this is less about you than you think it is! This is something that she is struggling with internally. One minute she wants a new life, away from you, and the next she wants to reconnect and do fun things. This is why we tell LBS that they should attach NO MEANING to anything they say or do at any given moment. My W, after telling me she wasn't attracted to me, would initiate sex. My guy brain would fight with logic and reason ("it means nothing!") and emotion and feeling ("she had sex with me, she likes me again!"). But it drives a sane person crazy, because it is so incongruent!

Here is the thing: nothing in these situations makes sense. If logic and reason won out in these sitches then there would never be a WAS to begin with! So WASs are running on sheer emotion. What they feel in a given moment is what they will act on. This is why you should not assign any meaning to what they say or do. This was why my W told me what she told me about her feelings changing. She once said when I pressed her for what she wanted "I still want a D. But if you ask me again in five minutes, I may feel differently." HUH? Something as huge as getting a D and she was treating like whether she should eat a sandwich or not!

Hoch, this is why you focus on you. GAL. 180. Detach. Turn your focus to yourself, and take it off of her. Otherwise you will go mad trying to find "meaning" in what she is saying and doing. You may as well chase pots of gold at the end of a rainbow.


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Ok, I’m doing what I can to throw out old strategies and understandings and adopt a new plan, focused on myself.

I’m currently trying to wrap my head around what the Divorce Remedy says about positive impact, as well as the section on the depressed spouse and what you can do to continue being supportive even if they push you back/away, and the good advice I’m getting here that nothing I say or do can save the MR. help me to understand so I can act accordingly.

At present, we seem to be in this holding pattern. I’ve stopped engaging in fights - they used to be daily, she’d pick fights about anything and I’d dig a hole by trying to defend myself rationally. Those have stopped, as I’ve simply stopped responding, or started leaving the room when she lashes out. The good news is, a few days into me dropping the “distancer purser” dance suddenly, she came to me and said she wants to make strides in her mental health.

That’s HUGE - so far, she’s only dealt with her mental health reluctantly, resisting any change or diagnosis and telling me it’s fine, back off. I started... well, basically ignoring interactions and only responding when spoken to, and two days into it she had tears in her eyes and said “I need to do [such and such] to fix myself, the kids deserve better.” It’s basically the first time she’s taken responsibility for ANY part of the relational dynamic (or shown insight) in years. That’s big.

I’m afraid we’re in this sort of limbo now though, a no-man’s land. We’re married, but not really in a relationship. But there’s no move to leave. I have this gnawing fear that she’s happy to just stay that way forever, with me at arms length. I don’t want that, and wish I knew there was some light at the end of the tunnel. It’s sad to think she may just be happy living like that.

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My God Hoch , when I read this my mind flipped. Totally the same sort of vibe I get of my W.

Originally Posted by Hoch

I feel like metaphorically she’s saying “I want nothing to do with you. Let’s go see a movie.”


I Described my sitch to A friend "I want a divorce ,what do you want for Dinner?"

Originally Posted by Hoch

I’m afraid we’re in this sort of limbo now though, a no-man’s land. We’re married, but not really in a relationship. But there’s no move to leave. I have this gnawing fear that she’s happy to just stay that way forever, with me at arms length. I don’t want that, and wish I knew there was some light at the end of the tunnel. It’s sad to think she may just be happy living like that.


This again is exactly where I am as well, bizarre headspace .
Both my wifes mother and stepdad have existed like this for 30 years .
Scary biscuits.
CHIN UP Hoch
You are not alone.

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Tusk, I was reading your thread before I posted, and it sounds like we are in similar positions. So, I will respond for both of us - we won’t end up on that situation. Patience is a virtue, and I plan to become a master. I also seem to remember reading that these stretches of no apparent change should be expected and anticipated.

One thing I’m trying to work out today is, if I’m stopping the pursuit, should I still be complementary and supportive? One of the things I had been doing was saying she looked nice/beautiful, making her food or tea, helping with small tasks. But to completely stop pursuit, I’m not sure if I should be doing those things.

After a week or so of stopping pursuit, she did ask me recently, “is there a reason you’re being incredibly distant toward me?” I responded that I wasn’t intentionally, but internally I was aghast. Of course, I wanted to yell out, “you avoid me like the plague, you never say a kind word, you act like I don’t exist - and you have the audacity to ask why I’m being distant?”

Sometimes, it feels like a sick game. Other times it feels as though she isn’t even aware of how weak our marriage is - in those instances maybe the question is genuine? Other times, I wonder if it’s part of the pursuer dance - she wants to ask me why I’m distant, so I can tell her and she can distance again.

I tell you one thing, I’m committed to making this work, but I’d love to get to a place where I’m not second guessing motives behind words anymore.

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So to add an update, I’m having a real hard time knowing where to set boundaries.

Like I said before, my wife has basically stopped functioning as a person by degrees. It’s obvious she’s depressed. She is making strides, but I am definitely feeling myself taken advantage of. I’m having a hard time knowing where to set boundaries, and where to follow the advice of “always be content and happy, give them the space they need.”

For example, I have a very stressful job that I am able to do from home remotely, but it takes tons of focus. Both the kids are crazy and high energy (and I mean HIGH energy... running into walls and throwing furniture and screaming pretty much constantly). The agreement when Covid started was that I would be able to work uninterrupted (since she’s a stay at home mom), and I would try to give her breaks as time allows (15-20 min for her to take a drive).

I get up with the kids at 6, then I hand them off to her at 9 when I start work. I used to request a break in there, since she used to get up at 8, but that would rarely happen.

Now, however, she’s waking up at noon, taking multiple hour-long breaks during the day, and I watch the kids for a full 11 hours every Saturday with no breaks. This is nuts. I know she’s healing and finding herself, but I have a job to do. Advice? I can’t tell if she’s taking advantage of me, or is so lost she can’t see it.

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Originally Posted by Hoch
So to add an update, I’m having a real hard time knowing where to set boundaries.

Like I said before, my wife has basically stopped functioning as a person by degrees. It’s obvious she’s depressed. She is making strides, but I am definitely feeling myself taken advantage of. I’m having a hard time knowing where to set boundaries, and where to follow the advice of “always be content and happy, give them the space they need.”

For example, I have a very stressful job that I am able to do from home remotely, but it takes tons of focus. Both the kids are crazy and high energy (and I mean HIGH energy... running into walls and throwing furniture and screaming pretty much constantly). The agreement when Covid started was that I would be able to work uninterrupted (since she’s a stay at home mom), and I would try to give her breaks as time allows (15-20 min for her to take a drive).

I get up with the kids at 6, then I hand them off to her at 9 when I start work. I used to request a break in there, since she used to get up at 8, but that would rarely happen.

Now, however, she’s waking up at noon, taking multiple hour-long breaks during the day, and I watch the kids for a full 11 hours every Saturday with no breaks. This is nuts. I know she’s healing and finding herself, but I have a job to do. Advice? I can’t tell if she’s taking advantage of me, or is so lost she can’t see it.


Hoch, this is tough. Because you are balancing trying to get her to live up to her agreement/responsibility, and not trying to control her. And I think that you need to tread lightly here.

Do you haven any other options for child care? Do you have relatives that could help? Are there any other options available to deal with this?

A lot of LBSs get boundaries wrong. Boundaries are not to get your WAS to act or not act, it is to guide your own actions. Let me give you an example. Maybe your boundary is that you will not tolerate disrespectful discussion from your WAS. Obviously you cannot control what comes out of your WAS' mouth. BUT, you can set a boundary for how YOU will act if it happens. Maybe your boundary is "If she starts to talk disrespectfully to me, I will end the conversation and walk away."

How that works in reality is when she starts belittling you, you look her in the eyes and say: "I refuse to be spoken to like that." Then turnaround and walkaway. Go for a drive, go do an activity, something. But notice, you're the one taking action based on the boundary, not her. Because you cannot control her.

So you need to look at boundaries not as "how do I get her to do what I want her to do?", and more "what do I do when she does things I cannot tolerate?"


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Here is my personal pattern that conveys a full message. It is based off of several "experts" in communication:

Sense- Observation (When you, I see….I hear…I read….
Thought (I believe….It seams to me…
Feelings
ANGER (I am frustrated…
SADNESS (I am disappointed…
FEAR (I am worried…
REGRET (I am sorry…
LOVE (I appreciate/understand…
Need (I want…What I propose ...I require… The response I would like to hear is.....
Consequence - My Future Response (If you choose not to….If you continue…

Quote
Dear wife,

I am writing this letter to share my feelings. When you expect me to take care of the children while I am working, I feel frustrated. I believe we had an agreement that you would watch the children from 9AM to 5PM to allow me uninterrupted work time. I am disappointed that that is not currently happening. I am worried that this pattern will continue and I will fall behind at work. I am sorry that I can't spend time with you and the children during the day. I appreciate all the time you do spend with the children. What I need from you is a commitment to watch the children while I work. If you can't do this, I will start investigating other options. I hope you understand why I need your support while I work.

Husband


There are many other feelings you can use. Look up feeling charts. This is just a guideline.

Verbal can also work, but I find the letter gives me more time to clarify what I am trying to say and not forget parts.

Wife, I have some important things I would like to say to you and would like you to listen until I am done. ....


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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This feedback is excellent. I am incorporating it into my outlook.

So, regarding what I had said previously, I did eventually stand up for my boundaries. She ended up being gone like 10-12 hours over three days, and I eventually had to put my foot down (gently and kindly of course) that I have my work hours, and I am supportive of her time away and self-care, so long as it comes after I prioritize my mental health and job performance, ie I can’t take on both of our jobs (child care, my job) simultaneously for long stretches of time.

She heard me, but sadly some kind of spell was broken. What I found, oddly, was that when I gave her (seemingly) unlimited time away from her responsibilities (as in, when I took on childcare AND my job, and let her leave whenever she wanted regardless of what I wanted), she softened considerably. During that time, she was kind, playful, apologetic, considerate, and even began getting physically closer and more relaxed.

So now I know what triggers her positive changes. It’s just that it involves a complete detachment from her responsibilities. I’m kinda stumped, because I want those changes to occur - it’s just unsustainable.

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Originally Posted by Hoch
This feedback is excellent. I am incorporating it into my outlook.

So, regarding what I had said previously, I did eventually stand up for my boundaries. She ended up being gone like 10-12 hours over three days, and I eventually had to put my foot down (gently and kindly of course) that I have my work hours, and I am supportive of her time away and self-care, so long as it comes after I prioritize my mental health and job performance, ie I can’t take on both of our jobs (child care, my job) simultaneously for long stretches of time.

She heard me, but sadly some kind of spell was broken. What I found, oddly, was that when I gave her (seemingly) unlimited time away from her responsibilities (as in, when I took on childcare AND my job, and let her leave whenever she wanted regardless of what I wanted), she softened considerably. During that time, she was kind, playful, apologetic, considerate, and even began getting physically closer and more relaxed.

So now I know what triggers her positive changes. It’s just that it involves a complete detachment from her responsibilities. I’m kinda stumped, because I want those changes to occur - it’s just unsustainable.


Hoch, you can't have it both ways. Of course she is pleasant when she is doing what she wants when she wants to. But that is just not the way the world works. She will either like you or respect you through this. Guess which one gets you closer to what you want?

Respect is paramount at this point. I would suggest you sit down and put into writing what you need from a childcare standpoint. Think of it almost as a custody agreement (because basically that is what it is). Make sure you are including ample time for YOU to have alone time and time to go off and GAL. It should be fair and balanced. This may upset her and she may not remain softened towards you. But she will respect you for standing up for yourself.


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Thank you for this. I’m so far inside it, it’s very helpful to have an outside perspective.

What are the two ways I’m trying to have it? That can help me focus my path.

You say she will respect me for standing up for myself, but through this whole thing one of her primary complaints is that I’m controlling her (I’m not). She rails against my ‘control,’ which is in fact trying to get her to do her share of the life she repeatedly selected and won’t attempt to change.

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The two ways you are trying to have it is for her to like you (be pleasant and soft) and respect you (you standing up for yourself).

Controlling is not trying to stand up for yourself. And do not put much stock into what she says. WSs are not to be trusted. Believe nothing she says, and only half of what she does.


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I have to say that staying home every day to take care of two little boys like you've described......would not be good for me.......and I would not be good for my family. I don't know that I could last in that environment day in and day out, without something else to take me away from it for a few hours. My mind would need a distraction or peace/calm long enough to help balance the situation at home. Is there structure at home, or are the kids allowed to throw things into the wall, etc? You've said one child had special needs, and you said they both were high needs children. What does high needs mean?

You said something about not having a support network. Does this mean you have nobody to help with them, or does it mean family/friends don't understand? I'm sure you are aware there are agencies and schools with programs that offer parents support with special needs children. There are some facilities that offer respite to parents of special needs children who want to spend an evening out, or the weekend, whatever. I hope I don't sound patronizing, but have you sought out all the available resources in your area? FWIW, many years ago I worked a very short time with parents of special needs children. It was quite an experience for me to hear their personal stories and how it had affected every area of their lives. As the old saying goes, "until you've walked in their shoes"........and I hadn't, so it left me with much admiration for parents with children with any type of special needs.

If her depression was noticeable after the first child was born, and it didn't get better after the second birth, then my first thoughts lean toward imbalanced hormones. Not only does it cause depression, but it can kill her desire for sex, as well. Has she been to a medical doctor about these issues? Is she taking any medicine? Staying home all day, every day, is not always the best thing for many women who are in the best of situations. It doesn't mean they are bad mothers or don't love their kids enough, it's just how that individual is wired. Which child is special needs?

You mentioned some tragedy in the past. Were you a couple at that time? Did she receive any therapy to deal with it?

Her father is terminally ill, so that is heaping more stress and depression on her. Does she talk to you about her feelings, fears, etc, or does she keep it stored up inside?

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Then lockdown together with our two boys, and deep financial and logistical problems. I played it very low key for over a month and things seemed to be cooling. But I finally had to confront (kindly) her about her behavior/rudeness to me (on air with my boss), and she reiterated she “doesn’t see this going anywhere and wants a divorce.” I finally said, ok, can we at least not use lawyers? And she stopped cold, later walking it back that she “ still hopes this has a happy ending.”


To me, this describes a woman who wants out of a stressful and unhappy sitch. It starts out with her threatening a divorce when you confront her about her inappropriate behavior. Instead of her apologizing and correcting it, she throws up the D card. How serious she is........nobody knows, but I can tell you that once she starts threatening, it will weigh on her mind more & more. The fact that she blames you for everything, says she doesn't take responsibility for her part in this situation, IMHO. Maybe some of that comes from not being held accountable when she was growing up, or after she became an adult. Perhaps you are the only one she sees to blame, depending on how small her world has become. IDK, just speculating. She seems overwhelmed and doesn't know how to cope. Would she accept help from others, or is she type who doesn't want it or trust anyone else? Does she seem to like her IC okay?

Have you ever suspected her of taking drugs that would cause her behavior to be erratic......or do you feel this comes from something else? Any mental illness in her family?

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Says she wants a divorce every time I stand up against the rage, but then walks it back. Makes plans for togetherness in the future, but seems happy having a completely disconnected marriage with no touching or closeness, though she promotes deep closeness with the kids. Is kind to me at a distance, but fights back any attempts to improve the marriage, and won’t move to actually split. Everything is “my fault.” Color me confused.


For some women, they feel if they show affection or closeness, the H will want to take it to the bedroom. If she is not feeling the desire for sex, then she may be taking caution to not signal you to have sex with her. My advice is try not to take it too personally. That may sound nuts, but whatever is going on with her may have nothing to do with you directly.

Apparently, she is not quite ready to file for divorce, b/c she just threatens. Now, if you lose your cool and tell her to go do the paperwork, or force her into a corner about it........then she just may go through with it. Put it down as her stress talking, but don't EVER tell her she doesn't mean what she says (even though she doesn't) b/c then she is challenged to prove you wrong.

Don't tell a woman how she feels, or how she should feel. And, don't try to fix her. That is very insulting to her. Although the H is trying to help her from a place of love, it makes her feel inadequate and lowers her self esteem. You asked about complimenting her. If she has become wayward, then I'd say no. However, if she is depressed, then I see nothing wrong with it.......as long as you don't overkill with compliments, b/c then it sounds fake and like a$$ kissing and it's ruined. My suggestion, if you have the talent, is to say things that might build her self value in other things other than just physical appearances. Stay at home moms don't get a lot of credit for what they do. Even you referred to it as her job, and I get what you meant. The difference is, her job doesn't end after a shift or at the end of the day. She's on call 24/7. I'm not saying you were wrong to remind her what each of you had to do during this lock-down. Sometimes, you just have to do it if she acts as if you should be helping out with the kids during your working hours. I've seen it become a problem when the H stays home to work obtaining a degree or run his business, b/c the W loses or forgets the reason for him being there. She starts expecting him to do all the housework, cook, wash, run her errands, etc. So, then he needs to pull her aside to get things in perspective again.

Every woman likes to feel she is still pretty, but sometimes (especially if things are a bit rocky) it's safer to direct the compliment toward a particular ability she has.......like cooking an especially good meal, or whatever. But if she's avoiding sex, then she is going to be suspicious of you pouring on the compliments. Try one, and if she ignores it or turns off, then don't give another one for about a week.

I'll comment on the lighthouse and other things in my next post. Don't stop posting. Even if it's just a few words, don't stop.

One more question. Have either of you been guilty of inappropriate behavior with the opposite sex since you've been married?


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Hi Hoch,

There are many poster here I respect, ,Sandi2 and Steve85 are two of them. They are very wise and I strongly suggest following their advise and clarifying any questions they ask you. Be grateful they are posting to you.



There are changes in your behavior that need to happen. If you are like most posters, you will make the wrong changes in the wrong order, at the wrong time and for the wrong reasons. That is OK. The important thing is growing. Become a better version of you. During this extremely difficult time of your life, you take a good hard look at yourself and decide what changes you want to make.

Most guys do not know what is attractive to women. Do your research in this area. Drop the negative traits. Pick up new positive ones. I do not try to control my woman. My goal is to understand her. Help her get to a relaxed state. Meet her needs in bed before mine. I do about 3% of the talking when we "talk". My role is to listen and understand and relate to her emotional state. The more she talks, the more relaxed she will be later.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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Sandi2 - Thank you for your kind words. You ask a bunch of great clarifying questions, let me try to fill out a little more of the story.

We have two boys, 5 and 2. The oldest is suspected of being on the spectrum, or possibly ADHD, or both. At the very least, he has deep sensory needs and always needs to be moving/slamming/bouncing. He’s been that way since he was born - we couldn’t put him down, or he’d never stop crying (and I mean never - pediatricians said he lacked the ability to deescalate/re-regulate). The 2 year old doesn’t have these inherent needs, but has developed a set of similar intense learned behaviors from his brother. They destroy books, throw chairs, drown TV remotes, and run on couches.

I’ve tried to describe it to parents or friends when they say, “heh, yeah kids are a handful.” Somehow I can’t quite communicate the intensity or constancy of it. My best analogy is, and pardon my disclosure, but have you ever had a
moment where you dropped your keys down a vent, tried to catch them and shattered your phone against the floor, spilled your coffee, hit your head on a door and fell down the stairs? That, but for 5 years.

We don’t have a support network, at all. Both my wife and I are from the same town, our families live minutes apart. For the last 14 years, we’ve lived about 3 hours away from them (where I went to school, and later where my career industry was located and where the kids were born). In the last year we moved 500 miles further away, for my dream job (which I’ve been trying to get for 15 years), but it further isolated us. While I wanted the job, I was ready to turn it down for the family, but my wife talked me into taking it - though she later said she only did it because she “had to” (?).

My wife doesn’t have any friends. She’s just never been very good at making them, or if she does, she doesn’t keep them very long / fails to maintain the friendship. My guess is that it comes from a place of deep insecurity. I’ve always been supportive of her finding time to be with friends, or to go to meetups where she might meet people, but she’s always had an excuse not to. Until recently we had friendly couples with kids, but they were always my work buddies, and my wife would never spend time with them if I wasn’t there.

So there has been no support network. That means, no days off, no date nights, no vacations. We’ve had 3 date nights in 5 years, and that’s been precious babysitter money that we didn’t really have (the cost of living is strangling us). The finances are a separate thing, and I’ll try to explain:

I’ve never wanted to be a sole breadwinner. I don’t have that particular patriarchy gene - I much prefer an open partnership. However, as soon as we became pregnant the first time, my wife called me sobbing and said she wanted to quit her job (which was admittedly toxic). I said, hey - why don’t you leave, you’re really unhappy, and I can cover us for a while. I didn’t want to, but I did make that decision, though we talked about her finding another one soon since I can’t support us on one income for long. That was six years ago. Since that time, I’ve suggested, asked, and *begged* for her to get another job, ANY job, because we are hemorrhaging money and I can’t do it alone, and she has battered me back and refuses. We’ve burned through all our savings and both our retirements and she still won’t budge, so it’s become a HUGE point of contention between us. I resent being made the sole breadwinner, she resents being asked to work.

I’ve also suggested, helped, and tried to get a playgroup going, helped her plan activities for co-op learning, helped her schedule a sitter swap all so she could have time away. She somehow always manages to let those opportunities pass. Even though I work more than full time in our new town, I’ve managed to find two other moms and kids at parks and gave their numbers to my wife to set up play dates. They never happened.

So yes, my wife is overwhelmed. Completely. And deeply depressed. However, she has also resisted literally every attempt I’ve made to help her alleviate the situation, which has been monumentally frustrating for me. I see the situation getting worse and she actively refuses all help, and I haven’t been able to turn it around.

You asked about her personality, and that describes it pretty well. When she’s up, she’s light and playful. When she’s down, she refuses all help, hides her emotions, and says she’s fine. Her mother is the same way, but is also (in my opinion) a textbook narcissist and her despair/depression takes over the room at family gatherings.

Growing up, my wife’s mother was depressed, and her father was terminally ill (he has a degenerative disease that will eventually kill him). Between them, there was no room for the kids. My wife’s siblings all found some form of rebellion and identity, but my wife was basically the good, quiet, peacekeeper of the family. Which left her to slowly implode while hiding everything about who she is.

She was that way when we got together. I saw the spark of beauty in her, and we slowly found her voice together. It was wonderful. I thought those days were past - we were a strong couple that discussed everything and shared our feelings. But then kids came along and all the old dysfunction swung back into full effect, leaving me dumbfounded and without my partner to help problem solve.

As to her trauma, she was in a car accident when she was 17, in which the other driver (a DUI) was killed. My wife was blameless - he was going 70 in the wrong direction. But still, my wife had to talk to and console his wife and kids on the phone, because she’s the “consummate peacekeeper.” I’m sure it still haunts her to this day.

She did receive therapy at the time, but he was a bad therapist - he wanted her to take lithium and shut up. She developed a bad relationship with IC from there - I believe with her current therapist she pays him lip service and they talk about surface stuff, and she only goes because I pressured her (my mistake after reading this board, but her behavior had become deeply depressed and verbally abusive).

She has talked to me many times in past years about her sadness over her dad, and I’ve always been there to comfort her - except now, she just says she hopes he “dies soon.” I think she just can’t take it anymore, and it’s heartbreaking to watch. He’s basically the kind stoic gentleman, so to watch him degrade is very hard.

So that about sums up my/her situation. She has deep as well as ongoing trauma, and we are in a crushing situation. However, she has also resisted nearly every effort to improve the situation, and I am nearly at my wits end. Forgive my lack of humility, but I consider myself a rather centered, rational and optimistic person, and this has left me completely fried as to what I can do. I love my wife and partner, but I feel like she has unraveled in front of me and I’m powerless to stop it. She is completely isolated - absolutely no contact - and yes, I think as a result everything has become my fault as I’m the only non-child human in her life right now.

I definitely hear my own words in all this and I don’t want to sound particularly accusatory, but you’re also hearing me in like Season 12 of my ongoing situation, and there’s only so much an optimist can do in the face of irrationality before they start to feel jaded. I don’t want to be jaded - I want to find solutions.

Also as to your question about services - thank you. We’ve gotten services from everything from the state to the school board for my older son, but somehow they always want to do “more tests” before telling us they’re “inconclusive.” He currently has an ABA (applied behavioralist) who is helping, somewhat. We are using all the help we can get, and will continue to look for more. I love my sons dearly and will do anything for them. It’s so difficult to see my kids unregulated, my wife spiraling, my family slipping apart, and not be able to *act*.

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Ready2Change -

Thank you for your kind words. That was a lot of information I just dropped, but I’m spite of that I’m more interested in learning than declaring, and that goes for my relationship as well.

You make good points about listening more than speaking - that’s been something I’m definitely guilty of during our relationship, and it’s something I’m actively working to change. I’ve completely (well, nearly completely, I do slip up) volunteering information or suggestions, and now I just wait for my wife to share, if she does. But I’m here to learn, and to change. So thank you, and please keep making suggestions.

Sandi2 - as far as compliments, it’s a delicate balance. For a good month or two I found some success leaving her kind, supporting notes where she left her purse. “You are a badass,” “we love and appreciate what you do,” etc. kind, non-physical compliments. It was a strange time - she obviously appreciated them, mostly laughing but saying nothing when she found them. But it was as though she sort of... laughed them off and ignored me. It was a time of increased relaxation for her, but also of increased boundary pushing by her. It felt like she was comfortable, and stopped working on herself. Her anger toward me and the kids would spike, and her personal responsibility was zero during that time.

When I started following the advice form The Solo Partner - absolutely no pursuit, make yourself scarce - she started to take notice, and I would hear her making statements about personal responsibility. “I need to work on my anger, the kids don’t deserve this.” She started sharing her feelings with me.

So it’s a very confusing set of results. Of course I want to compliment my wife and make her feel good about herself. I want to do that 24 hours a day. But when I do, she stops working on herself. When I pull back, she takes personal responsibility. It’s very, very confusing.

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Small update. I’m trying to follow all the advice given here, pulling back where I can, being scarce, working on myself, and trying not to look for the “why” too much in her behavior.

I’m still thrown off by the occasional comment. We are barely living as husband and wife, other than sharing time with the kids. Yet when I pull back I occasionally get comments, such as yesterday, when she noticed me being conservative with my words and asked what seemed like a heartfelt, confused “is something wrong?”

It’s so hard not to feel like this is a game. Is... something wrong? Is she kidding, or toying with me? She seems genuinely concerned - but how can she not know what’s wrong?

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Originally Posted by Hoch
I’m still thrown off by the occasional comment. We are barely living as husband and wife, other than sharing time with the kids. Yet when I pull back I occasionally get comments, such as yesterday, when she noticed me being conservative with my words and asked what seemed like a heartfelt, confused “is something wrong?”

It’s so hard not to feel like this is a game. Is... something wrong? Is she kidding, or toying with me? She seems genuinely concerned - but how can she not know what’s wrong?


It is a game with high stakes. Learn to play it well.


There are so many ways to respond to the "Is something wrong?" question//comment.

This one sticks out:
"Nothing you need to worry about"

The state of the relationship dictates how to respond. Tone, inflections, body language, eye contact, facial expression, actions afterwards, are all key in saying this.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change


It is a game with high stakes. Learn to play it well.


Thanks for replying. Forgive me for being obtuse, but is the game you’re referring to the distancer/pursuer dance? If so, I’m still not sure if she’s being willfully ignorant when she asks me what’s wrong, is trying to bait me into an argument, or is somehow oblivious to the dynamic between us (which seems unlikely).

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WOW! My heart just breaks reading about the situation with your sons. I agree, the younger child will follow the older child's behavior.

Is your son in special education classes at school, or is he in mainstream classroom settings? I don't how the teacher would be able to conduct class with so much distraction. Mainstream classroom teachers would want the parents to immediately put him on medication for ADHD.

I try not to express disagreement with another poster's advice, and although I get what was meant by making yourself scarce.......b/c that is the usual advice we give in the more common situations. However, you have a unique situation at home, and not being available for hands-on parenting, is only going to make matters worse, IMHO. I think your W is threatening D simply b/c she is so frazzled she sees no light at the end of tunnel. Not being there to relieve some of the stress related to the kids, just might be the last straw.

Both of you, and especially your W, is experiencing burnout. I think it's critical to find real support ASAP. Does your area have a program & facility where the child can stay while the parents take a break? I encourage you to check with the school district special education supervisor. S/he should be in the know of any such facilities in the area. The school district's social worker may be able to get you in contact with support groups, or some type of help. Perhaps you have tried all those sources and found nothing, but please do some checking on your own. Just talking or listening to parents who are dealing with sp. needs children, is emotionally supportive. Whatever the problem, it helps to know you aren't alone. If I were your W, I'd feel very alone, and pretty hopeless. I'd need lots of emotional and physical support from other sources. If she won't respond to any of your suggestions, it may be due to her feeling hopeless about the situation with S5, and of course, those feelings overflow to the MR.

How does your W deal with the kids when their actions get out of control? What type of discipline is used, if any? Have you been told that he cannot learn to control or react to his impulses?

To be honest, some parents would be afraid for their children to play with S5, if he has violent tendencies. When you don't know exactly what makes him do what he does, or how much can be controlled, I would think he would need constant supervision around S2 or any other playmate. So, it's not like he can be left at someone's house who isn't going to really watch closely. It's understandable that some parents would shy away from having play dates. frown

There has to be something out there that could enlighten and guide parents who have a child with this condition. If there is a name for it, then there is surely some specialist who could tell parents what to do. (I'm not pointing fingers at you, whatsoever.) In the meantime, your W really needs emotional support, as well as physical.......b/c she is quickly drowning. I don't how people make it without family around them, but many couples are facing similar issues without family. If other parents aren't sympathetic, or they blame your parenting style, your W will naturally avoid them. Depression hinders a person from going out and making new friends. And, with this type of depression, the person begins feeling hopeless b/c they can't see things getting better. They are in the thing that depresses them day in and day out. I wish she had a therapist that would actually help her find solutions. Is she currently taking any antidepressants?

You mentioned how you suggested baby-sitting swap-out, which I think is a great idea. However, it goes back to what I was saying about other parents not knowing how to deal with S5. I certainly would hesitate to babysit a child that had those issues, not knowing what to expect. Parents who have children with mental, emotional, or physical special needs, often find that others are afraid to babysit b/c that's just how some people are. People who are not educated or experienced are the ones who are afraid, and who might judge.

Sorry, I'm rambling on and not really offering much of anything. I think of something we often pass along to people the advice of flight attendants. You must first grab the oxygen mask, before you can help anyone else. I think you and your W are going down, and need the oxygen mask. I'm not telling you a thing you don't already know. There have been many parents of sp. needs children to come to the board. Maybe someone will see your story and recommend something helpful. Don't give up searching. I wish I could be more helpful.

(((hugs)))


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
It is a game with high stakes. Learn to play it well.
Originally Posted by Hoch
is the game you’re referring to the distance/pursuer dance?
That is a small part.

Every interaction you have with your spouse is important. There are ways of behaving that will make you more or less attractive in her eyes.

Reflect on your past behaviors. You most likely have a handful of unattractive behaviors. You most likely are lacking in other areas. Drop the unattractive and start practicing new attractive behaviors.

For example, listening. Become an expert in validation. Do not argue with her. This is one piece of the puzzle.

Parenting is another. Start reading parenting books. Take classes.

Talking. Use the least amount of words needed to get the point across. Use the simplest words as well.


W:"Why are you reading a parenting book?"
"I decided to learn some parenting skills from some experts."


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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Hey Hoch, how about an update?


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I’m here folks, barely. Thank you honestly for checking in. It means a lot to have a group of people to talk to.

The last weeks have seen some pretty significant ups and downs. Things had been on a mostly positive trend - the other night I got a sincere “thank you for everything you do” from my wife, which I think may be the first kind, compassionate thing she’s said to me in almost a year. Most days she pretends I don’t exist.

But then the kids’ behavior, mostly the 5 year old, ratcheted through the roof. My wife started asking for more time away - while I’m working. My workload that I’m doing WFH doubled. And I have some new medical concerns that are gnawing at me and only adding to the stress. In addition, the family got sick - we don’t think it’s COVID, but it has everyone dragging and barely able to keep our eyes open.

When this happens, my wife’s attitude toward me turns completely cold and it feels like the whole cycle begins again.

I’d like to think I’m still on the right path. I’m doing everything I can to shed old patterns, detach, find and hold onto my own calm and peace. Right now I’m going through a moment of hopelessness, but I know it will pass. I need to pull out my copies of Divorce Remedy and Solo Partner and start again at chapter one.

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Sandi2, I also want to say thank you for your kind words, and especially the digital hug at the end smile.

I haven’t been able to report much lately due to how hectic things are, but I want you to know how much your kindness is helping me during a tough time. Even when people can’t always reply, kindness and compassion online can make a world of difference.

I appreciate the suggestions and am tracking down each one to see if it can help me/us. If the only thing I can do in a day is stay positive and maintain hope, I’ll call that a good day.

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We all understand. Posting here is important, but not as important as doing the real work in your life. post as you can.

Right now, just don't feed the emotional cycles. Listening to understand and validation of her emotions is your job as the man. Stay busy taking care of things. You, the kids, your work, your cars, your house etc.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Thank you again for the kind support.

I’m having another moment of hopelessness, which I again know will pass. Right now it (the process) feels particularly endless, even though things seem to be trending in a good direction. It’s just slooooooow progress.

Her tone toward me has shifted in recent weeks, for the better. If I had to give it a name, it seems like she has gone from hating me and everything I do (6 months ago), to ignoring me and pretending everything is fine and that I don’t exist (2 months ago), to now... it feels like, again if I had to describe it, like a nurse who realizes she’s been neglecting her patient.

She seems tentative in everything she does now, and is always sort of nervously checking in with me - “are you ok? Do you need anything? Can I make you food?” It feels like she’s just woken up a little and is aware suddenly that things are off. I’m not sure if she knows how or why yet but it does appear that she knows and *cares* somewhat. Compare that to six months ago, where she would get furious at me for even having emotions, let alone ones that might benefit from her attention.

One thing she said to me recently that got my attention was, she was supposed to get up with the kids (every other day) and she had slept in for like, a week, and hadn’t gotten up early. She looked at me earnestly and said, “I know I’m supposed to on those mornings. I want you to know I’m *trying*.” And something in my gut said she meant more than the mornings. I may be reading into it, but it felt like she was saying that about the whole thing - she’s *trying*. That’s huge. Like I said, six months ago she would have yelled swear words at me and slammed the door.

I keep having to bite my tongue to keep from bringing up the relationship. I haven’t mentioned anything at all for nearly three months. And she has made no efforts to move closer to me, to show affection or anything like that.

So it’s really hard to know where I stand. I want to feel like this whole thing is still on the path to repair, to having a balanced and loving marriage again. I fear for the opposite, where we’ve just settled into the new “normal” and she’s happy like this.

Advise me, folks. It’s so tough to deal with the kids’ behavior, the pandemic, my work, and our finances, as well as all my 180s and changes. And we have weeks, like last week, where it takes every ounce of strength to be the stoic one and do my (very difficult) job, behind schedule, with the kids screaming and throwing things at me, and her spiraling into melancholy and yelling at the kids, or asking for breaks multiple times a day (which, I get, but - I’m *working*. I’m not unkind or unsympathetic, but I have to keep my job). Sometimes it feels like it’s perfectly in focus and I’m walking the path, and other times it’s as clear as mud and I feel like I’m just fumbling through.

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Originally Posted by Hoch
Advise me, folks. It’s so tough to deal with the kids’ behavior, the pandemic, my work, and our finances, as well as all my 180s and changes. And we have weeks, like last week, where it takes every ounce of strength to be the stoic one and do my (very difficult) job, behind schedule, with the kids screaming and throwing things at me, and her spiraling into melancholy and yelling at the kids, or asking for breaks multiple times a day (which, I get, but - I’m *working*. I’m not unkind or unsympathetic, but I have to keep my job). Sometimes it feels like it’s perfectly in focus and I’m walking the path, and other times it’s as clear as mud and I feel like I’m just fumbling through.


Hi Hoch,

Always do your best. Each day your best will be different, but at the end of the day you know you did your best and then you will have no regrets. Learn from past mistakes and commit to doing better in the future.

As the man (as well as the one we can communicate with) it is your job to lead your family through this extremely tough situation. no one else is going to.

You face the dragon, even though you fear it (whatever dragon you are currently dealing with). Project confidence. Gain respect.

Parenting is tough. Having special needs children is on a different level. No support network makes it even more challenging. It is you and the mother. Divorced or not, you both need to pull your share. She may slack, and you will have to pull the extra weight. Do special needs parents have support groups? Is there on in your area?


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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You never find out how strong you are until you are put to the test. Life is one big mental test.

I like to focus on small tasks that accomplish the bigger goal and do them one at a time. Each small success should snowball into the bigger one.

Sometimes you have to reward yourself and go GAL or relax or do something for yourself to keep your morale high.


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Ok folks, I could use some advice.

A year ago, we moved for my dream job. It’s something I’ve wanted and tried for for 16 years, and it was a crowning life achievement. I had made it.

Unfortunately, this has been the worst year of my life. And it caps off 5 terrible years, of my wife falling deeper into depression, refusing to help out with the finances, and finally blaming me, swearing at me in public, and slamming doors.

I’ve been kind and stoic as much as possible, held it together for the kids. But our finances have been a disaster, and I’m realizing I deeply resent her for digging in and refusing to work as our saving and retirement were burned just to make rent, and I’ve been doing everything I can (60+ hr work weeks plus 2 side hustles to make ends meet).

Now, the only solution is to move back to our home town - which is the last thing I ever wanted to do. I get to keep doing my job remotely, but it’s not at all the same as being on site and participating in something amazing. I was given the remote opportunity, and my wife decided the only place to go was back home - cheaper prices, plus family. So we are moving back home.

Much of this is circumstantial, and our of our control. But I find myself deeply resenting her, her depression, and her absolute refusal to help with the finances when we are drowning. Now I’m watching a dream of 16 years die (or at least, severely change), and I don’t know where to put my feelings.

I know I’m supposed to show only positive, and I try that, and it’s helping. But I’m not sure what to feel right now, and I need advice.

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It’s frustrating because I know I could make great strides in peace with her if I feigned excitement for this move, but I cannot overemphasize how much I do not want to move back to my hometown.

Is this a case of, I just need to take it on the chin? It feels like it. But my chin is already pretty bloody from the past year. Again, I don’t know where to put my emotions.

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(((Hoch))). Sorry you are feeling so poorly and unhappy about the move. Resentment is a very difficult feeling to resolve once it takes hold. If it wasn’t, a lot of us wouldn’t be on this site. Certainly my XH had boatloads of resentment toward me - earned or not. Perception is what matters...always.

RE: your W? And I apologize if you have talked about this before. I’ve read so many threads that they all start to blend in once in awhile. Is you W getting help for her depression... like is she seeing someone and on AD’s? If she is, I would go a bit easier on her because at least she is making some effort to get her life under control.

Or... is she just telling you she is depressed and using that to justify doing nothing. I don’t know about you but I think that would eventually become a deal breaker for me. I’m someone who has always carried my share of the load so I don’t have a lot of respect for people who sit back and point fingers without making an effort to pitch in.

Maybe once you are back in your hometown and have the support of family she will be able to make some changes? I totally get why you would want to preserve your marriage but if things continue on like this and continue to kill yourself to keep things going, will it be worth it? I don’t have an opinion either way but I do think it is a question you are going to need to answer for yourself in the future.

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Thank you for your reply.

My wife is on antidepressants - though it took a while and a lot of pressuring from me for it to happen. She did recently volunteer to up her dosage though, which was a welcome surprise. And it happened just a few days after I started completely detaching and ending pursuit, which seems telling of the dynamic.

She has a therapist that she never sees consistently. Sometimes it’s twice a week (rarely), but most often it’s every 2-4 weeks. And from the little that she says of it, they mostly talk about surface stuff.

So I recognize that she is trying, after a fashion. She does spend much of her time staying up till 3 am though, and often loses her cool and snaps at me and the kids. The big difference between now and a year ago is, she seems to have this persistent apologetic state in between bouts of anger. The other day she apologized to me for “making my life a living hell.” (I had said nothing prior and have been detaching for months). Most days she falls into helpless remorse and frustration. But as mentioned, this time last year she was screaming and swearing, denying there was a problem, and hating me for existing - no apologies in sight.

So they are small strides toward mental health, but strides nonetheless. This is after basically 15 years of her being mildly-to-severely depressed. But in previous years she has referred to her depression as “not hurting anyone so why fix it, it’s just who I am.” Recognizing that maybe - just maybe - her depression impacts those around her, that part is new.

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Well, I shared my feelings.

Not to get any specific response, but because I’m run down on no sleep and I can’t keep pretending I’m happy about the move.

I got about what I expected, a flat “I’m sorry to hear that,” and when I asked if she planned this move to be for the long term, she replied with “who knows what the future holds.” Which is code for, “I don’t know if we will still be married so it might not matter.”

Feels like all the hard work of the last 5 months is draining out.

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Hoch,

Sorry you’re hurting man, we’ve all been there.

You gotta let her go to get her back. Let her go. I know that feels like life or death to you, but it’s not. And with time you will see it too. On the other side of fear is freedom. Let her go, and get her to realize she might lose you. And in the meantime, work on you, take on new challenges and become a better version of you. One of two things will happen: you’ll either attract your W back or.... you’ll find someone better.

You can do this. Keep posting.

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Hoch, what do you want? And no I'm not asking that related to her. "I want to stay and have her stay and be happy and remain married to me!"

If your choices are to stay and get divorced. Or go back to hometown and still likely get a divorce?

What I'm trying to get you to see is that if you are moving back with her to save the marriage then you are doing it wrong. You'll likely be back in your home town AND divorced. Two things you don't want. Or you can not agree to something you don't want and respect yourself, maybe garner some respect from her, whether you stay married or not.


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Thanks Steve.

Unfortunately it’s more complicated than that. Due to cost of living, if we were to remain here we would have to get a studio or 1 bedroom apartment to survive. We have two small kids, age 2 and 5, and the 5YO is hyper and special needs. They break or damage everything, and keeping them inside such a small space is a recipe for disaster.

Moving back, we have a chance to survive financially - it’s not really feasible to stay. I’m just very unhappy about it. The opposite course of action would be for me to say no, I’m staying here - and have her move back home with the kids. And to lose my children on top of my marriage... I can’t begin to tell you how unprepared I am for that.

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If you have no choice then you have no choice. That wasn't the way you framed it. Or I missed that part.


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That could be on me, I may have framed it poorly.

Largely the situation is, we cannot afford to stay where we are. However, with the remote opportunity at my work, we could conceivably go anywhere cheaper. My wife chose to go back home.

So it’s not like staying is an option. But going back to our hometown isn’t required either. I’m just salty about losing my current location, and sad about going home. But not necessarily thinking there could be an alternative, other than if my wife had helped with the finances the last 5 years we would have far more options (and conceivably could have stayed).

I know it’s not fair, I’m just not sure how to process this.

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I think the thing that prompted my frustration was her commenting to me “I finally get to go home, and I feel like I’m dragging you. It’s making me resentful.”

And I’m just thinking, you’re resentful? I’ve been trying to achieve this dream for 16 years, I finally get it, and now I have to tuck tail and head home. I’m resentful.

None of which is productive.

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Obviously, you and W have conflicting views about returning to home town. You see it as a sign of defeat. Do you know or have you asked how she sees moving home is the best option? My first guess would be that she feels she'll get more support with the kids. Is that a strong possibility, or do you think she's just homesick?

Resentment has been building in both of you, for some time. It would be extremely difficult to find someone, individuals or regular run-of-the-mill day cares, to keep your oldest child. I doubt you would want someone keeping him, who was not educated on children with extrasensory perception. I'll try not to repeat what I've previously said, but I will stress again that finding the right educational/support facilities for S5, need to take priority.........else, you won't have a marriage and family. It's in crisis now. Neither you or your W will endure the stress that stems from this issue with your child, if you don't take action to find the help for him. Something is going to break under the pressure. IMHO, the place to choose to live, would be one that has access to the best doctors and educational environment that will benefit S5, as well as teach/support the parents. If that happens to describe your hometown, then swallow your pride and do what's best for him. I would make a call to the local school district and speak directly to the Special Education Supervisor. I would ask if there are any students currently enrolled who have this diagnosis, and more importantly, if the district has in place a Sp. Ed. teacher who is not only trained, but experienced, with children with extrasensory perception.

In the public school system in the USA, students who require physical, emotional, or mental assistance (even if they are in mainstream classes) are eligible for a lot more than most first time parents realize (if they have not done their research). Public schools are required to provide what that individual student needs, within that educational environment. For example, if a student was in a wheelchair, the campus must have ramps to all the buildings the student will use, accessible water fountains, elevators to classes on second floor,......all for that one child. Private schools who are not state funded, aren't required to follow the state's educational standards of the public schools, but neither are they required to enroll your student. Disclaimer: I have limited knowledge on this topic, and our world is changing, so I could be wrong. Take it FWIW.

((hugs))


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Hello folks -

An update. I’m currently having a rough time, and wanted to reconnect with people here and get some guidance.

We have been through... a lot in the past weeks. We were initially planning on moving to our hometown this week, but due to the fires on the west coast, we made the rather panicked decision to move 3 weeks early and get everyone out of the path of the devastation. We probably could have stayed, but a combo of 90+ degree heat waves, smoke so bad we couldn’t open doors, and our young kids going crazy with the trickle-down stress... it was not good. So we got out.

The move was, predictably, a disaster. Wife and kids left a day early, I stayed behind to supervise the move and drive the truck. The movers were slow, stoned, and only packed half the house before they left. I was left to deal with the rest myself, and had several panic attacks in that time. But we finally made it, and all our stuff is finally in our new place.

Unfortunately, since I’m working remotely, my deadlines didn’t shift and I’ve been immediately faced with some crushing scheduling trying to catch up while working in our new space.

As to the family, my kids seem much calmer. All of this stuff went down about 3 weeks ago, and everything seems to have settled a bit. All except for my wife, who has only ratcheted up her tension.

My kids and I seem to be adapting well. Relaxed, watching shows, unpacking boxes. Initially, things were good - my wife and I actually watched a movie together - for the first time in maybe 3 months. But as mentioned, my wife is wound tighter than a drum most of the time.

She is snapping at everyone, mostly myself, but also the kids. “I thought I told you to put on your shoes, for the love of god!” “Dammit, why do you spill your drink every time??” Last night she snapped at me because I was brushing my 2yo’s teeth “wrong.” Then she snapped at our 5yo repeatedly because he kept moving on the bed and was waking up our 2yo. It was only 9:30pm.

I’m staying calm, distancing, and keeping the kids happy and making sure they stay safe. Unfortunately, I also have to work 10-12 hrs a day to keep my job, at least for the moment until I get caught up, and I hear her yelling at them downstairs.

We are back to the same problem, the only thing that makes her happy is taking breaks, without warning, 5-8 times per day. She says “I want to take a break” and just leaves, making me watch the kids when I need to be working to catch up on my deadline. I have told her that if we could schedule her breaks, which I am in support of, it wouldn’t disrupt my work as much. But I have clearly stated that it takes me 30 min to get warmed up into a task. If she leaves for 20 min (her average break time), and it takes me another 30 min to get back into a task, each of her 20 min breaks costs me an hour and 20 minutes from my schedule. And on top of that, she is taking up all of the “break” time in my schedule - which means I never stop. I work, then I watch he kids while they’re sad and angry that mommy left again, then I go back to work, all day every day, without stopping. I’m tired.

She did not used to be like this. For 10 years, she was the nicest, most caring, wouldn’t-hurt-a-fly woman. I miss and feel sorry for her. But since kids, she’s just... snapped. All of her recent behavior toward me has hallmarks of emotional abuse. I know I need to detach, distance, and leave her be, but my question is what do I do about the kids? I have to work, but I feel I also need to somehow step in and protect them from the worst of her barrages.

I’m still committed, but more lost and confused than ever.

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Hoch, sorry man. These sitches are bears. Throw in a move especially of this distance, and it is like throwing TNT on a gas fire.

But what I see is you struggling with who your W is today. You even end the post making a point about how awesome she used to be. And then I see you trying to get her to schedule her breaks.

Let me ask you, if you were stressed out, needing a break, and someone started to tell you "please schedule this break?" How would handle that? Can you see how that would increase your stress? "I need a break and you are telling me that I need to call a concierge to schedule that?"

Is there some other way to handle this? I forget the ages of your children, but can the older child be called upon to watch the younger children? Can you try to find child care for a 2-3 days a week so that your W doesn't feel overwhelmed even temporarily? I am going to challenge you to think outside the box. I know my W was at various times dealing with a lot of stress, and my telling her how to handle it never went over well. However, when I took action to help her then she appreciated it. Maybe her breaks would become less frequent if she wasn't doing the child care every day 8-6 or whatever your normal work day is. You are back in your hometown, do you have any support there that could help with this?


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Steve85 -

I appreciate your take. I’ve been trying to think outside the box for a long time, maybe I need to work harder.

We are in my hometown with family all around, but my wife still refuses to let any of them come into contact with the kids because of Covid. She is adamant that we isolate, no matter the costs. That goes for childcare as well. This has been part of our struggle the past 5 years - I noticed early on that our son was too much to handle; she was drowning, but avoiding all help. I started discussing her getting a job and putting him in daycare, at least a few days a week. That would have been the only way we could afford it unfortunately, she needed to be working.

Her response was “I won’t let anyone else raise our kids.” That’s been her mantra for years, and as much as I love her it’s just started to sound crazier and crazier. It’s not like a firm affirmation that is open to discussion about pros and cons, it’s an almost zealot-like position. She is still breastfeeding our near 3yo, still co-sleeping w our near 6yo. I’ve tried to rationalize it but it really feels like she is clinging to motherhood and won’t let go on fear of death, even though getting outside help, an outside job, daycare or even separate bedrooms for the kids would likely go a long way to making things easier. I’m a rational person but I’m kinda at my wits end, and I’ve been straining to see both sides of the argument for years.

That’s our current position - she won’t allow outside help because of Covid, and we couldn’t afford it if she did. Stuck is how it feels most of the time.

However, something interesting happened yesterday. Out of the blue, after being angry at everyone for three days, she texted me that she “needs to get a new therapist, she needs to talk about a lot of things.” Now to me, with a wife that rarely opens up at all, I must admit this immediately read as a bad omen. As in, “I need someone to help me confirm some hard decisions.” I’m a little jumpy, as she has threatened divorce 4 times in 3 years, and tends to be impulsive.

However, when I talked to her later, just being a good listener, she admitted to me that she thinks she “is insane.” She says she feels the last 5 years have driven her literally crazy, she gets angry at everything and everyone and has no idea how to control her anger or thoughts. She also said that while being a stay at home mom may be for some people, it is not right for her, she is realizing. She also said she wants a more well-rounded therapist who challenges her, because she says she’s “seriously f*ed up” and her issues will likely take years to address. I was definitely shocked.

Now for me, this is the best news I could hear. This is all stuff I’ve known for a LONG time, and it’s been so incredibly hard watching her degrade while refusing to acknowledge there was a problem, or accept outside help. It’s like watching an alcoholic drink themselves to death, and I’ve just felt so helpless. Hearing her acknowledge the problem is a big thing. It doesn’t mean anything is guaranteed, but the DR book says to look for positive small movements, and this definitely qualifies.

And thirdly, since nothing is ever simple, I’d like to share something else that is troubling me and I know you kind people can help with. I have a friend who was in a similar situation - we would commiserate about how we felt completely untouched and unloved by our wives, and buoy each other up to keep fighting for our marriages. He just started messaging me today that not only is his marriage over, but he’s found a new relationship with a woman who “wants to touch and be around him.” I’m happy for him, but for me this is so hard to hear. I had to tune him out, and immediately re-read the DR section on “the divorce trap,” trying to take solace in the sections about not being chummy with people who are getting divorced and singing it’s praises. For me, my wife has not wanted to touch or be around me for years, and it’s been so very lonely and hopeless. But I’m fighting for my marriage, for my kids, and for our future, knowing that she has been out of sorts for awhile and hoping the loving feelings will come back one day.

How do people here deal with friends who have thrown in the towel and are living it up with new partners? It’s so hard to hear and I’m not sure what to do with those feelings. But I WANT to keep fighting.

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Hi Hoch,

I’m so sorry you find yourself here. In full disclosure, I haven’t read anything in the newcomers section in a couple of years because well....it’s always sad. And I think it brings many of us back to a certain painful place. Fortunately, things will get better and you could not ask for a more supportive group.

It sounds like things have been incredibly stressful with the move, work, kids (my oldest is autistic), and life in general. You’ve received some very good advice and I know that some things feel counterintuitive. To me, resentment is a killer of relationships of any kind. It’s great you are both in IC and everyone is correct-once you stop asking why, life gets so much more enjoyable.

It sounds like your wife has been dealing with depression for some time. My best advice to you is to take her as she is now and don’t expect her to revert back. As a matter of fact, expect nothing. I’m almost 7 years out, and it is much easier with time to look at the good times as good times and realize there will be many more wonderful times in your life.

Setting boundaries can be difficult and they are necessary. Release your “expectations”. Wake up each day and tell yourself “Self, today is a present. I can’t change the past and I only control what I control. So I’m going to enjoy today and live it like it’s my last.” What’s important to you? What do you want? Yeah, we know you are worried about what your wife is going to do and you have zero control of that. So everything will have to play out but use this time wisely. You never get it back.

In regards to your friend, no judgements from me. Is your friend right for finding someone who has qualities he wants? Who physically desires him? Absolutely not. And you my friend are not wrong for wanting to keep your family intact. I have friends who do lots of things I may not do. One thing that makes my day is when peeps say I’m the least judgemental person they know. Not my deck of cards. I could prattle off a long list of things I’ve realized over the last almost 7 years but I’ll skip that. However, when you truly finally accept that this is an opportunity to become the best you and your wife will do what she does, it will be a true awakening. And you may feel a bit apprehensive with your confidence, however you have a chance to evolve.

Hang in there. It will get better.



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Georgiabelle -

Thank you so much for your kind words. I’ve actually been coming into my own in the last few days. I’ve been reading up a lot on distancer/pursuer, and focusing much more on caring for myself and what I want and don’t want. It has been a bit of an awakening.

I’ve also found myself vacillating wildly - as the reading says I would - between wanting her back and wishing she’d just go. This is the first time I’ve felt the tug of “letting her go,” really. The entire relationship has until now been me wishing she’d stay and being willing to do anything to keep her. So this minor shift is a sea change I suppose. But I’m doing it with a kind smile and a happy attitude, which is different.

I did notice within a day of me being “otherwise occupied” but in a great mood, she started fawning over me. I spent a bunch of time in my new hammock - which I wanted to do because it’s enjoyable - and she went out of her way to bring me like 5 different kinds of food I hadn’t asked for. That was strange and new, after 3 years of neglect. Each time, I received it with a “wow, thanks!” but didn’t make any overtures towards wanting to get up or engage. I ate and enjoyed.

I did notice resentment creeping in int he days since, and my detachment became a little sulkier. I’m finding it so difficult to be “detached but happy,” I find myself feeling each snub or unkind word. Which leads to more unkind words from her, reacting to my detachment. I’m really working on that, on the resentment.

One thing with my newfound detachment and boundaries - she comes downstairs and says a happy good morning to our kids, ignores me, and then wants to engage me in chipper conversation about the day. Is it fruitful to mention offhandedly and calmly that i find it unkind not to say good morning? On one hand, it feels like the boundary I would set with a houseguest and something I should get better at declaring. “Hey, it’s unkind to completely ignore me.” But on the other hand, it seems like to goes against the letter of the law with detaching. Set external boundaries for growth? Or set internal boundaries by not letting it bother me?

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Originally Posted by Hoch
Georgiabelle -

Thank you so much for your kind words. I’ve actually been coming into my own in the last few days. I’ve been reading up a lot on distancer/pursuer, and focusing much more on caring for myself and what I want and don’t want. It has been a bit of an awakening.

I’ve also found myself vacillating wildly - as the reading says I would - between wanting her back and wishing she’d just go. This is the first time I’ve felt the tug of “letting her go,” really. The entire relationship has until now been me wishing she’d stay and being willing to do anything to keep her. So this minor shift is a sea change I suppose. But I’m doing it with a kind smile and a happy attitude, which is different.

I did notice within a day of me being “otherwise occupied” but in a great mood, she started fawning over me. I spent a bunch of time in my new hammock - which I wanted to do because it’s enjoyable - and she went out of her way to bring me like 5 different kinds of food I hadn’t asked for. That was strange and new, after 3 years of neglect. Each time, I received it with a “wow, thanks!” but didn’t make any overtures towards wanting to get up or engage. I ate and enjoyed.

I did notice resentment creeping in int he days since, and my detachment became a little sulkier. I’m finding it so difficult to be “detached but happy,” I find myself feeling each snub or unkind word. Which leads to more unkind words from her, reacting to my detachment. I’m really working on that, on the resentment.

One thing with my newfound detachment and boundaries - she comes downstairs and says a happy good morning to our kids, ignores me, and then wants to engage me in chipper conversation about the day. Is it fruitful to mention offhandedly and calmly that i find it unkind not to say good morning? On one hand, it feels like the boundary I would set with a houseguest and something I should get better at declaring. “Hey, it’s unkind to completely ignore me.” But on the other hand, it seems like to goes against the letter of the law with detaching. Set external boundaries for growth? Or set internal boundaries by not letting it bother me?


Would a person that was detached let no good morning bother them?

The answer is no. So rather than try to correct it, work on detaching further. You are already seeing dividends paid in detachment. Bringing you food to the hammock is the exact opposite of not saying good morning to you. So forget it and move on.

Also, a lot of time LBS go into panic "I must save my marriage at all costs" mode. Only to find, that when they've achieved saving their marriage that they realize the marriage pre-BD wasn't all that great and they really didn't want to save it. I went through that bigtime after my 2005 sitch, and even felt that a bit after my most recent sitch. LBSs forget after betting bombed that they were pretty miserable, in most cases, leading up to BD as well. So this is normal. This is why it isn't really about saving your marriage, but realizing the old marriage is dead and the only way forward is a completely new marriage built from the ground up.


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Ok. I’m feeling extremely teachable at the moment. I want to learn.

I’m intrigued but confused about the notion of building an entire new marriage instead of reclaiming the old one. I... don’t know how to do that. But I want to.

Help me out with this here, this exchange just happened and I could use advice on what I did wrong or how to proceed.

First off, the setting: in my detachment of the last few days, my normal dismissive, neglectful wife has:

* brought me breakfast while working
* bought me a desk plant as a gift
* voluntarily discussed her day and previous night’s dreams
* joined me in my home-work office to fold clothes under the guise of “being closer to the kids to keep an eye on them.”

These seem small, but I can’t overemphasize how closed off she is, so these are notably different.

The dreams one though, I found interesting as a test case. This morning she voluntarily shared her dream with me, which is a nice intimate, but neutral discussion. As long as I was disinterested, she shared. As soon as I sounded intrigued and asked for more details, she backpedaled out with a “well whatever, it’s not important.” She is EXTREMELY reactive to my engagement, it seems.

But that’s not the interaction I want to ask about. Basically she’s been very kind, and I’ve been aloof for a few days.

Me: Hey I'd like to ask something. On saturdays you go out and work (on laptop, I watch the kids for 8 hrs). You normally take [nice car w carseats]. I would like [nice car] to take the kids on drives, could you take [crappy car w no carseats] those days? [once a week - she has nice car 6 days a week, I literally never get to drive it].

Her: why don’t you take [crappy car] and we will move the car seats?

Me: no, I’d prefer [nice car] because -

Her: fine.

Me: please don’t cut me off. —because [crappy car] is unreliable and -

Her: I said fine

Me: please don’t cut me off. - and because I don’t trust the crappy car on windy roads -

Her: I get it.

[i walk away, come back after a moment. Should I leave it, or stand up for myself? This is unkind communication.]

Me: I know this is an emotional issue for you, but I’d appreciate it if you didn’t cut me off when we’re talking, I’d like to be able to finish my thoughts.

Her: yes, SIR.

[i walk away. She comes and finds me 5 minutes later.]

Her: this is just adding more and more constraints on how I use my time. I don’t even get to go out and work during the week anymore [meaning she leaves, I watch the kids as well as doing my job, which is quite demanding].

Me: ok, I get that. I’ve had a very full week working longer hours than usual recently. But I did say you could go out last week.

Her: I asked and you said no.

Me: you asked at 4pm on Friday, and I was booked. But I said you could go out back on Monday, and you never asked.

Her: ok fine it’s all my fault, everything is my fault.

—-

This is typical of how our conversations go when I ask for any sort of compromise on her behavior. I know self-analysis is tricky, but I cannot overemphasize how level and generous my tone is, nor how quickly she escalates.

What should I have done differently? Should I take a stand and say it’s not ok to talk to me that way? I’m clearly missing something vital. Normally I simply stay calm and ignore her verbal abuse. Help me learn. I want out of this loop.

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Sigh.

After reading-reading Sandi’s rules and ruminating, it’s clear that I should have just walked away after the first time she said “fine” and cut me off. I’d gotten what I had asked for, and it’s her choice if she wants to engage in sub-standard communication. Damn, it is so hard not to react when treated poorly.

But I’m starting to understand the path.

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Hoch,
If it is really about the kids safety, I would limit the conversation and get straight to the point.

"Wife. I would like to use the nice car on Saturdays when you are at work so I can take the kids to (park, etc). The old car is unreliable and I feel it would be more safe for them if we use nice car".

If she bucks against it. Validate her but stay firm in the safety of your kids.

"I understand you are frustrated but this is for their safety".

This only works though if this is your intention and your kids only ride in the nice car. If for any reason outside an emergency they ride in old car... well you might want to ask yourself why you asked.


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Valeska19 -

Thanks for responding. I suppose I am examining my own emotions and motivations.

The main point is the kids safety. We never use the old car for child transport anymore because it has broken down 4 times and left us stranded.

But there’s definitely a component where I would like to use the nice car I pay for one day a week while she has it for 6. For the last year, I’ve been stuck at home on the weekends with the kids while she works because she has the kid transport car. That doesn’t seem unreasonable, but maybe I’m not seeing it clearly.

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Originally Posted by Hoch
Valeska19 -

Thanks for responding. I suppose I am examining my own emotions and motivations.

The main point is the kids safety. We never use the old car for child transport anymore because it has broken down 4 times and left us stranded.

But there’s definitely a component where I would like to use the nice car I pay for one day a week while she has it for 6. For the last year, I’ve been stuck at home on the weekends with the kids while she works because she has the kid transport car. That doesn’t seem unreasonable, but maybe I’m not seeing it clearly.


I guess I'm a little confused. Don't you work from home? Isn't she a SAHM most of the time? So Is it when you go out for GAL - that you take the old car. That makes sense to me if it's about safety. Whe reever the kids are is where the nice car should be. IF she goes out w/o kids - maybe she should take the old car?

Are you okay with her taking the old car and possibly getting stranded?

This feels like you both both are making a very big deal out of something that should be very small. Do you know what the underlying emotions are?

I also sense resentment in your response. Remembering that resentment is victim anger, what do you feel you are a victim of?


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You’re right that this is a big deal about nothing - it’s not something I particularly care about. But I am uncovering this huge well of resentment that I need to figure out how to deal with, and it’s almost all due to years of this same sort of thing - I bend over backwards to give her whatever she needs or wants, and when I ask kindly for small quality of life compromises she belittles me, shuts never down, shouts me out, or walks away keeping it from ever being resolved. That’s the loop I want out of. She is rude, entitled, and cold.

Even now, she came back to grab something, and is chatting with me and showing me silly photos on the internet like she didn’t verbally abuse me earlier without recognizing or apologizing.

Do I take it with a smile? If I’m standing up for myself, do I choose to walk away now by way of saying “you were unkind earlier, I don’t really feel like talking to you right now” ?

Honestly, this has been going on so long, and I’m realizing this is a lot of how my childhood went, that I’m completely ill-equipped to know where I should stand up for myself and where I should ignore. I feel like a bit of a dunce but I’m gonna learn this.

Help me out, I’m nearly 40 and just now figuring out boundaries. It’s time to learn.

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My wife used to do this all the time.

Ask me something like she wanted my advice, and as soon as I started talking, she would interrupt and talk over me. I would keep telling her I didn’t like it when she spoke or yelled over me, so she would just keep doing it more.

A lot of reading I’ve done since we split suggests people who argue like this in relationships have big control issues. Often had incredibly repressed childhoods, we’re very quiet, or played second fiddle to a golden sibling. And now in mid life they’re trying to reclaim their voice, but often in the complete wrong way.

This manifests later in adult life during relationships where they become extremely controlling, and they attempt to do this by hijacking conversation.

There’s two keys to this in my opinion. The first one is not to engage as soon as it happens. Simply ask her not to talk over you and then walk away. Secondly, do not get angry. She will not like the loss of control when you stop engaging, so she will then attempt to regain it - including doing whatever she can to get a rise out of you, such as following you around when you leave or saying provocative things. Irrational spouses at this point become like dogs that bark, any attention is good attention so they will make really poor choices and incite a big argument. It makes no sense.

So make it clear that you won’t engage when she yells over you, or makes snide remarks such as “yes SIR” (which is also a childish attempt to regain control) but DO NOT get angry, or bitter or go quiet. Just leave the room but then pretend you are having a great time. Put some music on, play with your kids, be happy and be really upbeat.

If you continue to engage when she talks over you, or if you get angry or bitter or upset, she has got what she wants.

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Wow, THANK YOU!

This is the first time I’ve heard anything that helps me wrap my head around why she does this. Not so that I can fix it, but because the complete illogic baffles me - you’re that upset with me that you want to treat me that way? Then why on earth are you chatty and friendly the next minute? And again, that this Wife 2.0 is inconsistent with the personality of Wife 1.0, wherein she would never raise an unkind word to anyone.

Believe or not, my wife grew up in an oppressive household, was very quiet, and was fifth fiddle to four siblings. I know control issues are huge for her.

So thank you, I really appreciate this framework. It at least shows me how to avoid the beginning of that loop.

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You’re welcome. I wish someone had explained this to me earlier smile

Just remember, she has two techniques to gain control - talk over you to control the conversation, or when you leave, try and make you angry.

You make your boundary clear and disengage when she yells over you “I don’t think we can have a productive discussion when you choose to talk over me” and then leave.

And then you don’t let her make you angry, and trust me, she will try ANYTHING to get a rise out of you because she will then feel like she has wrangled control back.

This forum makes it very clear that you can’t talk irrational people around in these scenarios. You can’t nice her around, you can’t ask her to be more considerate, words just will not work. Actions speak louder than words so simply walking away from her when she does this is the most powerful way to explain to her you won’t engage.

My psychologist said allowing a controlling spouse to make you angry is like giving a dog a treat when they piss on the carpet.

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This is great advice.

What about later in the day, when she comes back and chats like nothing happened? Am I amiable and listen casually, or do I politely decline to engage in conversation and find something else to do?

It seems like any indication that I’m still bothered by her behavior is handing control back, but then again, do I want to have a conversation with someone when they treat me that way?

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Originally Posted by Hoch
What about later in the day, when she comes back and chats like nothing happened? Am I amiable and listen casually, or do I politely decline to engage in conversation and find something else to do?

Do what won't cause Resentment in your heart. If you don't want to engage... then don't. If she gets p!ssed.. oh well. I know that's easier said than done but you keep expecting her to treat you in a way that she isn't. You don't have to be mean about it but its okay to want to be treated differently and to enforce that (in a loving way)

Originally Posted by Hoch
It seems like any indication that I’m still bothered by her behavior is handing control back, but then again, do I want to have a conversation with someone when they treat me that way?
So how do you take control of your own life? Of how you want to be treated? You can't keep getting upset with your w for doing the same behavior if you just stand there and take it.

Are you in any kind of IC to help with resentment and setting boundaries? The sooner you can see that this dance is as much your doing as hers - the sooner you can be on your way to changing it.


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Wow.... do whatever won’t leave resentment in my heart. It’s so obvious but so profound. I have a lot to learn.

Well, I did a 180 and kindly said, “I need you to know that I didn’t like how you spoke to me earlier. For my own sake, I need to tell you I’m not ok with that.”

I got a snotty reply back, and honestly expected to wake up to her threatening divorce. That’s how it usually goes. “I don’t think I can stay in this marriage if you’re going to be so controlling and critical.”

But.... this morning so far she’s been a little withdrawn but generally amicable. Color me surprised. She may have the capacity to change, we shall see. Which means I have set the stage for continuing to stand up for myself.

I’ve been reading up on emotional abuse and emotional blackmail. I’m going to start putting those learnings into effect. She has deep insecurities and control issues, that’s clear. What’s also clear is that me being understanding and kind is not going to fix the situation. So my behavior will change to something that leaves me stronger. I certainly had a thought after I stood up to her, bordering on elation: “old, demure me is dead. I’m taking control!”

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Originally Posted by Hoch
Wow.... do whatever won’t leave resentment in my heart. It’s so obvious but so profound. I have a lot to learn.

It really can be. Not easy.. but a total game changer.

Originally Posted by Hoch
Well, I did a 180 and kindly said, “I need you to know that I didn’t like how you spoke to me earlier. For my own sake, I need to tell you I’m not ok with that.”

Great first step. Setting boundaries can be a lil clunky at first when you aren't used to setting them. Now that you have spoken up.. they key will be to reinforce if/when it happens... and it won't be in the form of words. It will be in the form of actions. Leave the room. End the conversation. Whatever works for you BUT it is key that you follow through now.


Originally Posted by Hoch
But.... this morning so far she’s been a little withdrawn but generally amicable. Color me surprised. She may have the capacity to change, we shall see. Which means I have set the stage for continuing to stand up for myself.

Well when one changes the dance - the other must change. Of course it's uncomfortable. She may push back. You may give in. It's not a change that's done overnight... but keep with it.

Originally Posted by Hoch
I’ve been reading up on emotional abuse and emotional blackmail. I’m going to start putting those learnings into effect. She has deep insecurities and control issues, that’s clear. What’s also clear is that me being understanding and kind is not going to fix the situation. So my behavior will change to something that leaves me stronger. I certainly had a thought after I stood up to her, bordering on elation: “old, demure me is dead. I’m taking control!”


Here is my lil 2x4. Try not to focus on your wife so much with the emotional abuse/blackmail. Not that it doesn't matter - but it's definitely out of your control. You can't change your w... only yourself so don't focus on it.

Also - my guess (and it's only a guess) is that you probably developed this boundaryless behavior prior to your marriage. Think back to when you were a kid. How were boundaries treated in your family. What has been people's response when you set a boundary. Do you get push back? A guilt trip?

Dig deep Hoch. I suspect the answers you find will provide the roadmap to the relief you are searching for.


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Hoch - Read this post from Valeska. Every word is truth. And then re-read it over and over again.

You’re getting incredible advice.

It won’t be easy, it won’t be smooth, it won’t be fast.

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Hi Hoch,

You are looking for a “sign.” That is very clear as you have a tendency to analyze every interaction. Stop. You will go crazy. If you continue to analyze each interaction, you will continue to feel like you are on one of a roller coaster with no restraint bar or belt. Your wife is going to behave the way she behaves. You have exactly zero control over how she behaves. However, you DO control how you react and behave. That’s why you will keep hearing how important it is for you to focus and work on yourself. That exchange about the car seats made my head spin.

I know you are scared and feeling out of control. That’s a really difficult feeling to deal with-particularly in a stressful situation. You want to save this marriage. But like others have stated (you have gotten great advice) that marriage is dead. Put. A. Fork. In. It. Look at this as a new chapter in your life. Why? Because it is.

We keep reading your wife was nice at 9am. Cranky at 1:30 pm and snippy at 4. I’m not being snarky. I swear. I’ve been there. We’ve all been there. Those ESPN style hourly analysis will make you feel even more off kilter. So, what did you do this weekend? I understand your life is a bit chaotic 2 young kids-mine are older now but I relate to that crazy :-). Do you exercise? What are your hobbies? And apologies if I missed any of that.

Hang in there and happy Monday.



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Thank you all for this information. I am soaking up every bit of it, and I am re-reading anything I can find that is applicable.

I’m just... I’m very lost right now. Reading both The Solo Partner and the DR book, and while I normally have a plan... my approach is just scrambled right now. Both books call for an approach that is consistent, to hold a line and maintain a position. The DR book is definitely more hopeful towards reconciliation (or as the great advice has been, building something new instead of resurrecting the old), the SP has a more realist approach.

I just don’t know what my approach is right now, and it’s leaving me very empty. We are in this strange nowhere land, where we’re married, living together, we have small kids, but almost no relationship. She is as distant as ever, and only calls for my attention when the kids do something cute. And I’m finding that even that fills me with such resentment that I don’t even want to come when called anymore, it just cuts so deep that that’s all she wants of me.

But then the DR book says to look for small positive changes, and isn’t being called to see something joyful positive? While the pursuer in me reading SP just feels thrown away each time, and I feel compelled not to respond because it hurts so much.

TL,DR; I’m vacillating wildly between looking for positive indicators and acting “as if” we have a future together, and pulling away and feeling like my marriage is over. I just don’t know what to feel. But I am taking everything said here to heart, and am so very grateful for it.

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Georgiabelle -

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I did start doing some “me” stuff this weekend. I spent time with my kids, lots of hammock time, visited my parents, took the kids for a drive to get ice cream, light exercise.

What was said about the play-by-play interactions hit home. I definitely do analyze every interaction. I’m realizing I always have, and in digging deep, yes that’s exactly how my childhood went. My mother was off the rails (emotionally disregulated) and my dad was always oblivious and angry. Every boundary set was negotiated away, yelled over, or obliviously ignored. I never knew the emotional storm I’d be in for, so I had to be very sensitive to the barometric pressure.

This is why I synced up with what the DR book preached, to watch every interaction for positive or negative signals. But I don’t know if that is just feeding the fire. It’s so hard to swing from hope to despair so fast.

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Hoch,
There is so much I relate to when it comes to your sitch. I too grew up in a household where boundaries weren't respected. Ultimatums, demands, my parents couldn't express their emotions in a healthy way in turn leaving little room for 9 year old Val to express her anger to their behavior. Over time - I just learned that suppressing my feelings was what I needed to do or when my feelings got too strong to express them in the same way my parents did (Blame, Criticitze, or put others in charge of my happiness). I also learned to pick up the burden that if I just acted in a certain way, worked super hard at, be perfect... I could get that relationship I wanted.

Needless to say... it failed. Because at the end of the day... it doesn't matter how hard you work at... you can't change someone else. People will leave you, reject you, and abandon you. That is part of life and it's really hard choosing yourself knowing that it may mean that people may leave you, abandon you, reject you.

I know you want to save your M... but Hoch... you can't do that until you save YOURSELF friend. Put on your own oxygen mask. It seems like you have been working on trying to save your M for a long time... but the one approach that you haven't tried is saving yourself and seeing if that saves your marriage. You are feeling confused because at this stage - you have tried so many things. "Worked on it for so many years". Man - it's exhausting. You got nothing left in the tank... so you turn to your wife and she's got nothing left in her tank either... so she definitely doesn't have anything left for you. So Hoch - how do you fill your own tank??

I really think IC would do a world of good for you. You have so much pain going on and it seeps out in the form of resentment. Don't you see that you are doing more of the same by suppressing your anger as an adult just as you did as a child? I'm not saying to take it out on W... but Hoch... your pain is coming out whether you want it to or not. You've hit that critical threshold. It's doesn't give a rats a$$ if it's convenient for you - its been too long... too hard. It's gonna make itself heard. So IC would give you that safe space to let it out. Cry your eyes out, punch a pillow, whatever.

The interesting thing when you finally give your pain a voice... it stops needing to control your life. It has been given the voice and respect it deserves... and then... and only then.. you can make choices that come from your place of integrity.

I really think setting these little boundaries around behavior is a great first step. IMHO - I really think another big step would be finding support around those kiddos. I know Covid makes it tough but I thought that was a BIG reason why you moved home. I really think that it would help with your emotions.. and honestly... even if your w bucks against it at first... I feel like it would help hers too.

You are not powerless here. Think outside the box. Push yourself. You can do this!

((Hoch))


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Originally Posted by Hoch
Ok. I’m feeling extremely teachable at the moment. I want to learn.... I could use advice on what I did wrong or how to proceed.
Perfect. I will give my 2 cents. I don't remember most of the details of your sitch...forgive me.


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* brought me breakfast while working
* bought me a desk plant as a gift

I assume you know the 5 love languages. Most people "give" what they want to "receive".
So in this example, she is doing little things for you that you did not directly ask for. Most likely she wants you to do little things for her without her having to ask. The tricky part for you is the state of the R. Maybe a test here and there and observe her response.


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* voluntarily discussed her day and previous night’s dreams
* joined me in my home-work office to fold clothes under the guise of “being closer to the kids to keep an eye on them.”

These are STFU and listen times. Validate how she FEELS. Make it ALL ABOUT how SHE feels.

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As soon as I sounded intrigued and asked for more details, she backpedaled out with a “well whatever, it’s not important.” She is EXTREMELY reactive to my engagement, it seems.


W:"Talk Talk Talk Talk" Pause
H:"I would have been angry. Is that how you felt?" (Or whatever emotion you would have felt if it happened to you)

Frustrated, Scared, Happy, Angry, Frightened, Confused, Sad


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Me: Hey I'd like to ask something. On saturdays you go out and work (on laptop, I watch the kids for 8 hrs). You normally take [nice car w carseats]. I would like [nice car] to take the kids on drives, could you take [crappy car w no carseats] those days? [once a week - she has nice car 6 days a week, I literally never get to drive it].
Less words = Almost always better:
H:"I will be taking the kids in [nice car] this Saturday to "XYZ place" from "Start time" to "end time".

Her: why don’t you take [crappy car] and we will move the car seats?

Me: no, I’d prefer [nice car] because -
"[Nice car] is safer for the kids."


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Her: fine.

Fine does not mean fine. Next time she says fine, look her directly in the eyes...hold eye contact and say "Are your frustrated?" Then STFU and validate. Do not argue. Do not share your beliefs.


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Me: please don’t cut me off. —because [crappy car] is unreliable and -

Another option: Hold eye contact. Wait until she is done talking. Wait for the pause. Then:
"Are you done?" Wait until she says "yes".
"Would you like to know my thoughts?" Hold eye contact, wait for "yes"
H: [Nice Car] is safer for the kids. (If this is the first opportunity to make this statement.)

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Her: ok fine it’s all my fault, everything is my fault.
H:"I am sorry you feel that way."

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I simply stay calm and ignore her verbal abuse. Help me learn. I want out of this loop.
I did not see any verbal abuse in this example. Was she calling you derogatory names?

I am the "safe one" where my lady can express some of her emotions. You want to be the "safe one". We are emotional beings and most people stuff down the emotions. This is not healthy. We all need safe places to express our emotions.




"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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Thank you all again. This is so useful. I feel like I’m in a fog but all this kind advice is starting to pierce through.

Where I’m confused is, the Solo Partner advises ending the pursuer/distancer dance by doing less and less for or with your partner with the goal of doing and saying nothing at all unless they start the conversation, with the intention being that you “break” yourself from needing to be cared about.

On the surface, this seems to be in conflict with the love languages piece - when she does acts of service for me, I should do little acts of service for her. It definitely works, it brings her to a kinder place but she never closes the gap to communicating using my love languages.

I just don’t know if I should be reciprocating to make her feel loved and safer (on her terms), or declining to end the distancer/pursuer dance.

Unless... I’m literally thinking this through as I’m typing... if she’s showing any kind of love or affection, no matter the form, I should foster it. But if she distances, I should not pursue. She comes to me = foster kindness, she pulls away = do not follow. Maybe? It’s so hard to wrap my head around. Again, extremely confused = extremely reachable. Plant your seeds smile

If I sound like a broken GPS that’s recalibrating... it’s because I am.

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These things are complicated. But they are simple at the same time. You want to work on being more attractive. You want to stop being unattractive. You learn new attractive traits. You stop behaving in unattractive ways.

Originally Posted by Hoch
if she’s showing any kind of love or affection, no matter the form, I should foster it. But if she distances, I should not pursue. She comes to me = foster kindness, she pulls away = do not follow.
That seams reasonable to me. Just don't go overboard. Slowly test the waters and see how she responds.


Ultimately it all has to to with the way a woman FEELS in your presence.

If you behave different and interact with her different, she will feel different.

Confidence and respect are the top 2 traits you need to master.

(Most of the seduction and attraction advise I give goes out the window if there is OM in the picture)


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Hey there fine folks -

I have gone deep on reading those quote threads. I think I’ve gone thru 7 of them and am still trucking.

I’ve learned a lot about detaching, GALing, dropping the rope, and building up self respect. The last few weeks I have been riding pretty high. I’ve been standing up for myself with rude behavior, making it clear that I have activities I am going to pursue, and have been enjoying my time alone and with my two kids immensely.

It’s been very interesting to watch my love for her as it detaches. Interesting, but quite sad. I’ve noticed that I was getting quote good results being available all the time, happy to see her, lighting up when she came in the room. She was more open, kinder, was bringing me food. Even a playful touch. But not much beyond that.

But that changed suddenly when I asked for something for me. (I get up every day with the kids before work. I asked her to get up once because I was doing yoga, and she railed against it.)

Since that, she’s been rather cold. That’s the pattern; I’m kind and open, she starts to open up. But then I need something for me which requires a change in her behavior, and she slams down the door hard and gets incredibly unkind and critical.

But so far, I’d been pretty good with detaching. I’m learning so much about what it is and isn’t. And each time I learn more, I realize what I’ve been doing is hardly detaching at all.

I think the point I reached was... just fed up. Fed up with crumbs of affection, fed up with waiting to see what her response would be. So I started to make decisions for me.it was going well for about 3 weeks - which is a record! - but came crashing down yesterday after a comment from my mom: “hoe long can you live like that?” I had a good answer at the time, but today the question threw me for a loop.

And in that state, my wife sat down with all of us and was looking through old videos of the kids being cute babies and laughing. And she kept looking to me for my response, with her eyes all lit up and smiling. She wanted me to laugh and be happy and joyful, even though those memories are so painful. All I can see is how unhappy I was at the time, since she was pulling away from me then and I feel like I missed both of their young childhoods between heavy work and her hating me. And she’s sitting there on the couch looking and laughing as though they were videos of a happy family, and as though we’re a happy family now. So I got up - with a smile- and went out for a bit. I thought I had it together. But I’m still very lost.

I guess I’ve been reading all of those quote threads, and listening to all the information here. And I suppose I’m feeling pulled in a few different directions. It seems the tone of the advice here is different from the DR book. The book’s advice, including the LRT, seems focused on maintaining hope and trying to get your marriage back. But the tone of the advice here is that that marriage is dead, and you have to give up and let go completely to move forward. I’m just very confused.

TL,DR; was detaching very well, feeling good, then a bad day and a stray comment and I feel more confused than ever.

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So Hoch there is nothing wrong with having hope and I’m not sure where your reading to have no hope? So when you say “try to get your marriage back”. What do you mean by that? It takes two people to want to be married to married. You can’t control how she feels and you can’t have any effect on how she feels.

So if you want to have hope and want to stand then do it. What you have to do though is temper your expectations. Usually with hope comes expectations which lead to let downs.

I’m sorry you’re going through this right now.

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That’s the thing.

She hadn’t moved toward divorce since she mentioned it 8 months ago. We are married, and she keeps making plans for the future (what we’ll do with this room, how we can clean the garage, etc.) But she is staying at arms length, and we continue to exist in this limbo. Married, but not. Pretending?

All the advice here says you can’t nice them back. However, when I’m nice, she starts to open up. Does she respect me? No. When she doesn’t get her way she is very rude. She hasn’t respected me for some time.

I guess I don’t know when or if to use tough love. Much advice here says you can only rebuild if she respects you, and you can only be respected if you give up the NGS. But it sure feels wrong when I pull back and pull away from her little kindnesses. Like I’m going to miss it when she attempts to offer an olive branch.

One bit of advice here is that, if she doesn’t respect you, you have to treat her like a wayward wife - because that path is driven by her lack of respect for me.

Like I said, I’m committed and putting energy toward changing. But I feel like the playbook is all jumbled up.

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So your nice and she opens up. What does that mean? You won’t miss it if she changes her mind you’ll know. Look at her actions. Do her actions say she is moving closer to you or away from you?

What do you mean the play book is jumbled?

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Her actions say she’s staying still or moving very slightly towards me.

Let me try to work through this, because I feel like I’m taking in all the advice I’m hearing - I’m open to all of it - and it’s pushing/leading me in several different directions which are incompatible.

Largely I’m confused around how I’m supposed to be acting or what I am/am not supposed to be doing to turn my sitch around. I’m also confused by the repeated statement that following the rules/steps will seem counter-intuitive and feel wrong. Well they do seem counter-intuitive and wrong, and they’re also pushing her further away. So I’m feeling awfully lost in the process. It’s supposed to feel wrong, and it does feel wrong - so when will I know if what I’m doing is wrong?

Many people have said not to go into super-husband (beta male) behaviors, because at BD (or when she said she “wanted a divorce [at the moment] but wasn’t actually asking for one*) she has effectively fired me as her husband and it was too late (is that accurate in my sitch?). One of her complaints was that I didn’t do enough around the house (not due to not wanting to - as listed, our situation is mega-stressful and we’ve been hanging onto our sanity by our fingernails with no time or money)

So common wisdom here is that I shouldn’t suddenly start doing housework because it will be too little, too late for her. However, I’ve noticed when I do she is genuinely surprised and thankful. Should I do it or stop? Is that beta male behavior that will get my no respect, or the thing which will turn this around?

I’ve also noticed when I do small things for her and act appreciative of her small acts of service (her love language), she lights up. But I’ve been warned about getting myself friend zoned with her, and that being aloof and playing hard to get is the better option. I’ve also been advised that enabling her being comfortable but not intimate encourages cake-eating, and I should be striving to make her feel like she’s going to lose me?

Look, if it’s not clear, I’m just really, really lost. It’s been a really, really sh*tty three years, with young special needs kids, financial problems, three moves, wildfires, and now pandemic. Constant screaming and throwing and smashing, and my wife pulling away and blaming EVERYTHING on me no matter what I to do hold everything together. I’m tired. I thought I had a plan, but now everything is fuzzy. I thought I was doing the right thing being the infinitely patient one in the family setting an example for calm, but maybe that’s perceived as being a doormat?

I’m admitting I know nothing about how to attract a woman anymore, least of all my wife. I truly don’t know what she wants or how she works anymore. I’m just trying to hold my family together, and I feel like I’m failing miserably. somehow when I read the DR book it all makes sense, but when I try to apply the advice here I get all jumbled and lost.

I truly appreciate all the advice and kind words from everyone on this site. I’m just realizing I’m off the edge of the map with no compass.

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If you feel like your W is moving towards you then keep doing what you are doing. If your ok living in a marriage without intamacy that's ok too. If you are ok with your W disrespecting you that is your proagative. If you want to reconcile then you are in a waiting game. Maybe she comes back to the marriage and maybe she doesn't. Only you know when you have had enough.

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Thanks, LH19

I’m definitely NOT ok being in a marriage with no intimacy. It breaks my heart. But with two small kids, a pandemic, and no financial savings, I honestly don’t know what other solution would be open to me.

Anything I can think of that would involve me pursuing a life with intimacy right now, seems like it would involve me not being in this house anymore and not putting my kids down to bed. Not having them come to me in the middle of the night when they’re scared. Which is the ONLY intimacy I have in my life right now. I feel like I’m sandwiched by two impossible situations.

I’m not ok with her disrespecting me, and I’m standing up for myself a day at a time. Right now she is being very cold because of it. I’ve even noticed lately, I had stopped wearing my wedding ring because I was so full of resentment. I reconsidered, decided if I was married I’d wear the ring regardless, and put it back on a few days ago. In reaction, she has taken hers off.

I just don’t know what I’m doing anymore.

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Hi Hoch,I will give my 2 cents:

Originally Posted by Hoch
I have gone deep on reading those quote threads. I think I’ve gone thru 7 of them and am still trucking.
Lots to digest.

Quote
Let me try to work through this, because I feel like I’m taking in all the advice I’m hearing - I’m open to all of it - and it’s pushing/leading me in several different directions which are incompatible.
Being aware of the different directions is the important part. Making a logical decision on what direction you want to take is better than continuing down a path blindly.


Quote
Largely I’m confused around how I’m supposed to be acting or what I am/am not supposed to be doing to turn my sitch around.
Think about this: Who are you trying to control? Is that person behaving the way you want? If not, what behaviors would you like to see? If that person is her, you are using the wrong measuring stick. If that person is you, then you are in the right frame of mind.

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I’m also confused by the repeated statement that following the rules/steps will seem counter-intuitive and feel wrong.
I am not sure it should feel wrong, but in most areas, I believe the behavior is counter intuitive. Something about your belief system got you to the bomb drop. You followed your intuition up to this point. Obviously that was not working.

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Well they do seem counter-intuitive and wrong, and they’re also pushing her further away.
Are they pushing her away, or is she moving away regardless? Again, make sure you are using the right measuring stick.

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So common wisdom here is that I shouldn’t suddenly start doing housework because it will be too little, too late for her. However, I’ve noticed when I do she is genuinely surprised and thankful. Should I do it or stop? Is that beta male behavior that will get my no respect, or the thing which will turn this around?
You both should be doing your fair share. You take the trash out, not to get a reaction from her, but because the trash needs to be taken out. Depending on if she is SAHM, your balance of household chores should be different.

Quote

I’ve also noticed when I do small things for her and act appreciative of her small acts of service (her love language), she lights up.
Perfect. Is this the response from her you desire? Then keep doing it.

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But I’ve been warned about getting myself friend zoned with her
You do not want to be friend zoned. You can be her friend and lover. This all comes down to your behavior and the way you interact with her.

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being aloof and playing hard to get is the better option.
It is just an option. One way of behaving out of many. Timing is important with this.

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I should be striving to make her feel like she’s going to lose me?
Again, this just one possible option and depends on what state your relationship is at.

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Look, if it’s not clear, I’m just really, really lost. It’s been a really, really sh*tty three years, with young special needs kids, financial problems, three moves, wildfires, and now pandemic.
I can't imagine. Hopefully things will get better for you.

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Constant screaming and throwing and smashing,
Has this gotten better? Is it still a concern?

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and my wife pulling away and blaming EVERYTHING on me no matter what I to do hold everything together. I’m tired.
Is she really blaming you? Iss she sharing her feelings with you and you feel blamed?

[quote]I’m admitting I know nothing about how to attract a woman anymore, least of all my wife.[quote]Most guys don't. The good thing is you can learn. Ultimately it comes down to your behavior. How you interact with her. Attraction and seduction are two different things. I float between them.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Unfortunately Hoch once you get the bomb dropped all the options suck so you have to choose the least suckiest option that works for you. Standing is hard especially if your W is in an affair. I can’t remember if yours is or she just has someone on her mind. It’s almost impossible for a LBS to function normally in an in house separation. Just know that nothing you do is likely to make things better but you can certainly make matters worse. You W sounds very immature and must be a joy to live with right now.

Stay strong Hoch!

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Hoch,
It seems to me that you are getting lost in the minutia of all it. Step back. I always found that DBing can be about loving your wife or it can be used as a manipulation tool... the motive is based on the individual. Everything has two sides of the coin - it's about which side of the coin you want to play. Let's assume love and go from there.

It is loving to your wife and you to help with the chores REGARDLESS of what it leads to. Period. Not up for discussion
It is loving to your wife and you to say "no" at times in order to eliminate resentment in your heart.
It is loving to your wife and you to set a boundary if your wife is speaking to you in a way that is hurtful (blaming, criticizing, etc)
It is loving for your wife and you to self care... both of you. If she doesn't support your self care - it is still your responsibility to do it. (Ie: GALing)

Yes it is okay for do some acts of service. No it is not okay to do them if you are going to resent her later. No it is not okay to do them if it enabling a toxic behavior.

Honestly - so much of you is trying to get that perfect blueprint on how you should be but Hoch - every situation is different. I believe Sandi gave you some great advice around getting help with those kiddos. Have you looked into that yet?

I am sorry you have had so much hardship. It's just plain sh!tty. But i do think if you were to address some of those issues (the financial hardships, your kids, the move, etc) - it will be much more effective to your M than you trying to decide if you should do the dishes or not.

JMHO


M(f): 40
D'ed: 8/12

Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Unfortunately Hoch once you get the bomb dropped all the options suck so you have to choose the least suckiest option that works for you. Standing is hard especially if your W is in an affair. I can’t remember if yours is or she just has someone on her mind. It’s almost impossible for a LBS to function normally in an in house separation. Just know that nothing you do is likely to make things better but you can certainly make matters worse. You W sounds very immature and must be a joy to live with right now.

Stay strong Hoch!


Thank you all for the kind words. I will respond to each but I should address this one first.

No, to my knowledge my wife doesn’t have anyone on the side (though nobody can say with 100%).

The big problem for me for years has been her low sex drive and near complete disinterest. It started to get better before kids, but it has been a huge issue since our first son, bounced back a little enough to have our second, and then dropped off completely. The big revelation at BD wasn’t just that she wanted a D, it was that she wanted one because she “Is never having sex again.” From her: “I’ve never been interested in sex, I’ve faked it for 15 years, and now that I have kids I feel that part of my life is over. And since you obviously need sex then this marriage is doomed because I’m never changing my mind.”

For me, with two small kids and having just moved my entire family to pursue my dream job, this was the most gutting thing I could possibly hear. Words cannot express how much this revelation tore me apart. I felt betrayed, trapped, and completely stuck.

After the initial shock (but not the hurt) wore off, this started to sound off. For one, I know she’s had sexual interest in me in the past, even though she does have a very low desire. A man can just feel these things, and I have to trust my feelings on that. Second - what? Who makes blanket statements like that?

To fill out the picture, since having kids, my wife - who was always very athletic and cared about her looks - she has (I hate to say this) completely stopped caring about herself. And I don’t mean this in just the sexist “wow she let herself go” manner, but clinically - she gained weight, stopped shaving, barely sleeps, eats like crap, took up smoking, wears stained or torn clothes, refuses to work (as we approach financial ruin), doesn’t keep friendships, and doesn’t do anything fun or social, and yells at anyone and everyone who tries to connect with her or help her. She has let the animal litters pile up and won’t take them to the vet despite evident health problems, and these animals were her little babies before kids.

To me, the scene this is presenting is someone who has decided to lock herself in a tiny box while yelling “GO AWAY!” to the entire world, myself included, in any way that she can.

The sex thing hurts. It hurts and it tears at me. At BD, as I was saying or doing anything that would get her to stay, I told her that I would stay hoping her sex drive came back. She said “what if it doesn’t?” And I said that would be ok, we would make do.

So, that coupled with the fact that we just moved and she is very unlikely to have any affair partners (even digital) and is giving no energy to her looks or attractiveness, gives me pretty good indication that she is far from having anyone in the wings, and is much more in the “f*ck this world and everyone in it, just leave me alone” mindset.

Wow, this whole story hurts to share.

One more thing I should add - the times “I want a D” and “I’m never having sex again” come out is whenever I pressure(d) (previous to me DBing) her to change her behavior. And it came out so strangely that it gives me the impression it’s a last-ditch coping mechanism. Let me give you an example (this was 8 months ago, thru text):

Her: (something nasty, like “fine we will do what you want, we always do”)
Me: hey, I understand you’re upset, but that’s really unkind and I don’t appreciate being talked to that way.
Her: I don’t know how to make this marriage work. I’m never having sex again so I want a D.

Huh? We were discussing something simple, like what to eat or who would watch the kids. She was nasty, I stood up for myself, and she said she’s never having sex again. In no way were we discussing sex. To me it felt like someone with their hand on the nuclear button. “If you ask me to change I’m gonna blow us both up!” It’s just very, very strange to me.

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Sounds like a severe bout of depression.

So here is a question: It sounds like you were in a pretty miserable spot prior to BD, why did you want to hold on so tight? Was it fear of losing where you were comfortable? I find LBHs in particular, even if unhappy want to keep what is comfortable.

As far as what she says "I am never having sex again." What I hear when I hear a WAS say that is "I am never having sex again....WITH YOU." I know that hurts, but these things are biological in nature. Men have a sex drive that tells them "I WANT SEX". Women have, many times, other purposes for wanting sex. To connect with someone new. To remain connected to their current spouse. Etc. But I have no doubt that if you had agreed to D, her attitude would have changed. She would have suddenly become interested in her appearance, in losing weight, in dressing better.

This may hurt too, but since she feels like she capitulated and stayed, now she is back to where she was before: unhappy, depressed and just kind of riding life out. I saw this behavior with my W after our first situation in 2005. The depression came on after we reconciled. Though neither of us did the work and therefore in short order we found ourselves in the same dynamic pre-BD.

That led to BD #2......12 years later.

So I still see a lot of focus on her. What is Hoch doing to improve? How is GAL, your 180s, and detachment (self-differentiation) coming along?

By the way this: "At BD, as I was saying or doing anything that would get her to stay, I told her that I would stay hoping her sex drive came back. She said “what if it doesn’t?” And I said that would be ok, we would make do." THAT IS A TERRIBLE THING TO SAY. Essentially what you said was "I am so afraid of you leaving that I will gladly agree to anything you say in order to make you stay." Now you are reaping that which was sown.

Imagine if you had said: "I am not interested in remaining in a sexless marriage. So unless you are willing to work on that, trying to fix that with IC, MC, etc. Then I agree that we should get a D." You agreed to something you couldn't live with out of fear. This is why we try to get LBSs to not act out of fear.


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Steve85 -

I’m definitely seeing now that that was a terrible thing to agree to.

Why did I want to hold on so tight? I’m asking myself the same question. I’d like an answer myself.

The pressures I’ve been under (and was at the time) are enormous. I know everyone has their own burdens to bear, and don’t pretend to compare, but I’m a pretty resilient guy and the last 5 years nearly broke me.

A combination of factors led me to believe it might be (definitely was? Definitely wasn’t? Possibly?) circumstantial and would pass, so there was (might be? Could be?) hope. (Eg, countless postpartum websites, many accounts of sex drive disappearing for up to 3 years post baby #2, etc, and they all said to the husband, “hang in there, it’ll be ok!”).

We had just moved our entire life for a dream job I’d been trying to get for 15 years. I finally got it, but the financial burden of the move and cost of living, and some unforeseen expenses coupled with her stout refusal to help with finances, meant we were sinking fast without a net - we were looking at bankruptcy within months. In addition, many of our marital problems stem from dealing with my special needs son (5), who is loving but defiant and hyper on the best of days. His energy and outbursts would drag us down and pull us apart and make each of us blame the other for differences in parenting (we had no social network and no help, and couldn’t afford any) and as a result I am deeply saddened that my son didn’t have a very happy life because of all the tension in the house.

What that meant was, when my wife gave me this impossible choice, if I had agreed to a divorce, there was a definite worst case scenario - one of us would have to move out, which would mean I wouldn’t get to see my sons when I wanted, and I needed to be there for them to be their rock in the face of her irrationality and anger outbursts. Since we couldn’t afford our place together, we certainly couldn’t afford separate places, which would mean a move to someplace cheaper - which would also mean me losing my dream job. So, in short order, there was a real chance that I would lose my life with my kids, my home, my dream job, and my wife all in one fell swoop. I had (have) no savings, and nothing to fall back on. There was a period where I contemplated suicide.

So all I had was parenting websites saying “a dry spell happens, just be supportive and it’ll be ok,” and to be the best dad I could, I said “ok, I can be loving and patient.”

Wow, I can’t believe it still hurts to even discuss that situation.

What matters now is what I do going forward. I’ll admit that on some days, I’m patient, but rarely I almost get to the point where I’m so fed up with her not working on herself, brushing me off, and completely ignoring my needs that I’m tempted to say “I know I said I would wait but I can’t, I want out.”

Wow. That’s terrifying to type.

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Originally Posted by Hoch
Steve85 -

I’m definitely seeing now that that was a terrible thing to agree to.

Why did I want to hold on so tight? I’m asking myself the same question. I’d like an answer myself.

The pressures I’ve been under (and was at the time) are enormous. I know everyone has their own burdens to bear, and don’t pretend to compare, but I’m a pretty resilient guy and the last 5 years nearly broke me.

A combination of factors led me to believe it might be (definitely was? Definitely wasn’t? Possibly?) circumstantial and would pass, so there was (might be? Could be?) hope. (Eg, countless postpartum websites, many accounts of sex drive disappearing for up to 3 years post baby #2, etc, and they all said to the husband, “hang in there, it’ll be ok!”).

We had just moved our entire life for a dream job I’d been trying to get for 15 years. I finally got it, but the financial burden of the move and cost of living, and some unforeseen expenses coupled with her stout refusal to help with finances, meant we were sinking fast without a net - we were looking at bankruptcy within months. In addition, many of our marital problems stem from dealing with my special needs son (5), who is loving but defiant and hyper on the best of days. His energy and outbursts would drag us down and pull us apart and make each of us blame the other for differences in parenting (we had no social network and no help, and couldn’t afford any) and as a result I am deeply saddened that my son didn’t have a very happy life because of all the tension in the house.


So it was out of fear...fear of what you'd lose, that made you agree to something you didn't want to agree to. I like the clarity here on why. What I am concerned about is whether or not these are still rationalizations. In other words you feel you did the right thing because of the above. Please try to keep that segregated. Understanding why you made the choice you did doesn't justify the choice you made. As we tell LBSs all the time, all you did was to kick the can down the road and delayed, temporarily, the inevitable.

Originally Posted by Hoch

What that meant was, when my wife gave me this impossible choice, if I had agreed to a divorce, there was a definite worst case scenario - one of us would have to move out, which would mean I wouldn’t get to see my sons when I wanted, and I needed to be there for them to be their rock in the face of her irrationality and anger outbursts. Since we couldn’t afford our place together, we certainly couldn’t afford separate places, which would mean a move to someplace cheaper - which would also mean me losing my dream job. So, in short order, there was a real chance that I would lose my life with my kids, my home, my dream job, and my wife all in one fell swoop. I had (have) no savings, and nothing to fall back on. There was a period where I contemplated suicide.


Hoch, the strong will step up in times of adversity. The weak will sit and feel sorry for themselves. Looking back....which one would you say you were?

Originally Posted by Hoch

So all I had was parenting websites saying “a dry spell happens, just be supportive and it’ll be ok,” and to be the best dad I could, I said “ok, I can be loving and patient.”


So were you supportive? Or did you pout, feel sorry for yourself, and withhold things from her (emotional connection, etc).

Originally Posted by Hoch

Wow, I can’t believe it still hurts to even discuss that situation.


Sounds like you still have a lot of work on detachment to undertake.

Originally Posted by Hoch

What matters now is what I do going forward. I’ll admit that on some days, I’m patient, but rarely I almost get to the point where I’m so fed up with her not working on herself, brushing me off, and completely ignoring my needs that I’m tempted to say “I know I said I would wait but I can’t, I want out.”


More lack of detachment. You are so tied up in what she is and isn't doing, that you cannot see that there are things you can control and things you cannot. You cannot control her. You cannot control her choices. You cannot make someone do what they do not want to do. What you get to control is YOU and YOUR actions. Humans are interesting creatures. We can have refrigerators full of food, cabinets full of food, but we will go in look through all of it, and pine for what we do not have. So while you just enumerated in this latest quoted paragraph a bunch of things you don't have, what do you have that you could be thankful for? I see you talk about a nice place to live, a dream job, 2 kids that love you and that you love. Stop focusing on what you don't have and start to be thankful for what you do have!

Originally Posted by Hoch

Wow. That’s terrifying to type.


I see a lot of fear in you. And a lot of desire to control things you cannot. For instance, you didn't get to control whether or not your son was born with special needs. What you did have control over is how you reacted to his special needs and how you handled dealing with it.

I see you ignored my question about how your GAL, 180s and detachment are coming? Those are your focus areas for right now. How is Hoch going to stay busy and productive? How is Hoch going to self-improve? How is Hoch going to become a healthy, happy individual that moves forward no matter what choices those around him make?

Stop looking at her failings and start DBing (GAL, 180s, detachment).


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Steve85 -

I really appreciate your words. My head is swimming right now, but I will answer your questions in short order.

To start with, my GAL activities and 180s.

180s
* not starting conversations w W
* not arguing her feelings.
* validate, validate, validate (practicing with my kids too)
* never arguing a point.
* doing housework that needs to be done because it needs to be done
* giving W the time she needs away without asking any questions
* being cheerful and upbeat at all times
* focusing on what I do have instead of heat I don’t (I am struggling w this one)
* being assertive rather than passive to bad behavior
* feeling thankful rather than victimized by circumstance
* starting work on getting rid of NGS

GAL activities:
* I bought a record player to get into vinyl music, been wanting to do that for years
* connecting with old friends over shared hobbies
* I picked up woodworking (though this has fallen off)
* hammock time
* making the bed each day (it’s small but important)
* early bedtime and plenty of sleep
* training myself to fall asleep on command (i struggle with insomnia)
* daily walks
* morning yoga, learning tai chi
* weightlifting, floor exercises
* eating lighter and more fruit/veggies
* kicking butt at work (I am up for a promotion)
* seeing family once per week.

Detachment (here is where I struggle the most). Working on:
* not being hurt or affected By her actions or rude comments/brush offs
* not being bothered when she fails to keep a promise (getting up w kids, being back on time)
* not controlling anyone
* being happy being by myself (this one is very hard for me)
* enjoying time w kids w/out W, just dad time

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Originally Posted by Hoch
Steve85 -

I really appreciate your words. My head is swimming right now, but I will answer your questions in short order.

To start with, my GAL activities and 180s.

180s
* not starting conversations w W
* not arguing her feelings.
* validate, validate, validate (practicing with my kids too)
* never arguing a point.
* doing housework that needs to be done because it needs to be done
* giving W the time she needs away without asking any questions
* being cheerful and upbeat at all times
* focusing on what I do have instead of heat I don’t (I am struggling w this one)
* being assertive rather than passive to bad behavior
* feeling thankful rather than victimized by circumstance
* starting work on getting rid of NGS


Decent list. I would love to see you say "Get rid of NGS" rather than the mushier starting work on getting rid of NGS

Originally Posted by Hoch

GAL activities:
* I bought a record player to get into vinyl music, been wanting to do that for years
* connecting with old friends over shared hobbies
* I picked up woodworking (though this has fallen off)
* hammock time
* making the bed each day (it’s small but important)
* early bedtime and plenty of sleep
* training myself to fall asleep on command (i struggle with insomnia)
* daily walks
* morning yoga, learning tai chi
* weightlifting, floor exercises
* eating lighter and more fruit/veggies
* kicking butt at work (I am up for a promotion)
* seeing family once per week.


Some of these are great. Some are NOT GAL. Concentrate on staying busy. Preferably out of the house as much in the house. THose that struggle with detachment the most are the ones that do GAL the worst.

Originally Posted by Hoch

Detachment (here is where I struggle the most). Working on:
* not being hurt or affected By her actions or rude comments/brush offs
* not being bothered when she fails to keep a promise (getting up w kids, being back on time)
* not controlling anyone
* being happy being by myself (this one is very hard for me)
* enjoying time w kids w/out W, just dad time




Good. IC could really help you with this this list.


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Quote
So were you supportive? Or did you pout, feel sorry for yourself, and withhold things from her (emotional connection, etc).


This is what I’ve struggled with since day 1 - meaning, when she started to pull away completely after she became pregnant with our first son.

I’m sure I did the latter, and I’m sure it was out of fear of losing her affection, losing the connection, losing everything. But what I’ve struggled with ever since is, how do you be supportive when someone shuts you out emotionally and avoids you?

That’s not rhetorical, I honestly want to know. I didn’t understand it then, and I still don’t understand it now. And how do you offer support when you yourself are completely depleted?

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Originally Posted by Hoch
Quote
So were you supportive? Or did you pout, feel sorry for yourself, and withhold things from her (emotional connection, etc).


This is what I’ve struggled with since day 1 - meaning, when she started to pull away completely after she became pregnant with our first son.

I’m sure I did the latter, and I’m sure it was out of fear of losing her affection, losing the connection, losing everything. But what I’ve struggled with ever since is, how do you be supportive when someone shuts you out emotionally and avoids you?

That’s not rhetorical, I honestly want to know. I didn’t understand it then, and I still don’t understand it now. And how do you offer support when you yourself are completely depleted?


Again, you are focusing on her and her actions. Hoch, even if she emotionally shut you out, there had to still be opportunities for you to support her. Whether it was "I've had a terrible day with S5 today", and then you had the opportunity to say "I'll take him for the evening, why don't you go have a spa night." Or something similar. I was in your place. I know my attitude was "You've been home while I've been at work all day....deal with it!" We can always come up with excuses from selfishness. But surely there were ways you could still have been available to her emotionally, and showed her that you were there for her.


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Steve85 -

You’re absolutely right. I could have done that much more. I did do it a lot, but clearly not enough.

My first instinct is to do that now, which I know is faulty. To set time aside to watch the kids for her to go out. The problem isn’t that I don’t give or support - it’s that I overgive, get nothing back, and get resentful. From what I understand this is classic NGS that I need to kick in the butt.

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Hi Hoch,

I wanted to chime in quickly. First, you are going through an incredibly difficult time and I just want to offer my empathy and support. It sounds like more than any human being can handle, and you're doing amazingly. I think Valeska's post to you above is gold and I'd really focus there.

I'm not a psychologist but your wife does sound deeply depressed. I'm not sure that I agree with Steve that had you immediately agreed to D that she'd have suddenly started dressing nicer and become more interested in sex. I don't know that standard DB methods are going to be all that helpful, truly, in terms of moving her in one direction or another. She may need your support more than she needs your detaching.

However-- her healing is her work, and your healing is yours. I wholeheartedly agree with others that you need to figure out how to protect and support yourself through this and that is where I would place my focus. Place your own oxygen mask on first. I like your 180s, GAL, and detachment plans-- they all look great.

I was the LD spouse in a SSM pretty much since our second child was born and I truly just didn't want to have sex with my H at all (or anyone). I flinched away from any physical touch because I was afraid it could lead to sex. I did not realize how much it affected my H because I was so enmeshed in my own perspective. On this one, I would say-- don't take what she is saying (we'll never have sex again) as fact. That is how she feels right now. Once (if) she deals with her depression, perhaps you can get to a place together where she's willing to work on her disinterest in sex. And, for what it is worth, rediscovering your sexuality after motherhood for those of us who have experienced long periods of low desire after having children is a huge gift.

You might read Emily Nagowski's Come As You Are if you want to learn more about how female sexuality works and what might be going on with your wife in this arena (beyond her depression, which could be a major factor, or THE major factor, as well). It is definitely not as simple as women are interested in sex for the purposes of connecting with a partner. I think that is a factor in doing it, sometimes, because we know we should and/or we want to connect, but it is a lot more complicated than that in terms of actually experiencing desire. Anyway, it might be a helpful read for you, or any man who is interested in supporting his partner's sexuality.

Note-- if you do get the book, keep it one hundred percent to yourself. If she knows/thinks you're reading up on female sexuality and desire, that is pressure, pressure, pressure and to be avoided at all costs. I just recommended it if you're interested in learning more about it.

Hang in there. One day at a time. You've got this.


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May22 -

Thank you for your kind words. They meant a lot to me, truly.

I have had a whirlwind day, folks. Just mentally whipping around like a flag in a storm - one minute ready to call it off and end the marriage, the next feeling like I have so much work to do to try to repair it. But at the end of the day, I experienced a sea change - something major shifted last night, in me, and I’ll explain. I’m glad I have you folks to talk to, because you understand these situations.

Hopefully my coming to grips with how I’m applying this advice will help someone else not make the mistakes I have.

May22 - I think there’s truth in what you said - even as everyone here says “every newcomer thinks the rules don’t apply and their situation is unique,” I DO think normal DBing is causing damage here. I can feel it. My wife is DEEPLY depressed. And much of her complaints over the years have been that she’s drowning under some extreme circumstances (so have I). I do NOT agree that she would have found her sexy side had we divorced - it’s just as likely she would have committed suicide (she tried once before).

I’ve mentioned that I feel a tone shift between this site’s advice and the DR book - the book is more hopeful, geared toward reconciliation, whereas a lot of the advice I’ve seen and read leans more towards “f*ck her, show her what she’s missing.” (Note here: I am still very thankful of everyone’s advice. It could well be that the tonal shift I’m sensing is my own inability to interpret the advice I’m given through the right lens - we can all only work from the perspective we have).While I agree that a more hard-nosed approach can be a useful tool, I know whenever I’ve tried to apply that way of thinking it has pushed her deeper under and widened the gulf of resentment. Not only is my wife depressed, she’s also stubborn as hell - she will fully stand in the flames to prove to me that she doesn’t have to follow anyone’s advice. She will burn to prove a point - she’s always been like that, and it was one of her attractive features initially.

I’ve tried to apply the letter of the law, specifically these rules:

* don’t initiate conversations
* try to do as little for, or with, your partner as possible
* always be upbeat in their presence and when asked, say “nothing is wrong” with a smile.

I think that, or how I was applying that, was hurting me in many ways. I just learned about Nice Guy Syndrome a few days ago. The book is in transit, and yesterday I listened to several podcasts with the author. Something struck me in that advice - the fact that the Nice Guy is deeply dishonest, and hides even the simplest or most benign truths (I’m hungry, I’m horny, I don’t like that soup) in order to gain female acceptance. It was like being struck by lightning reading that.

In this relationship, I’ve always been the “honest one” - the virtuous one, the Boy Scout, the direct one. She has been the dishonest one - unclear about her preferences, apathetic, unassertive. But I’m applying the basic detachment rules - act like everything is fine, be aloof, don’t start conversations - I realized I was lying. Lying about how I was feeling. And I realized that I have always been lying, in the Nice Guy Syndrome sense - lying every minute of every interaction, saying the right thing to avoid conflict. Pretending everything was ok and playing “hard to get” was just More Of The Same: lying.

Yesterday was bad, relationship wise. I was getting avoided gazes and grunts in response. My W was angry and avoiding me. So on a whim I took one of the author’s bits of advice and applied it: be totally honest.

Last night was my shift with the kids while she went out to work. It was hellish - S2 was smashing, screaming, hitting, climbing furniture. When my W got back, I said the unthinkable: “W, I’m glad you’re back. I was going to lie and say everything was fine, but the truth is this has been awful. S2 is being a nightmare. I’m exhausted.”

Calm, direct, grounded, honest. You know what happened? She relaxed. She became more feminine. “I know, he’s been like that all day! What do we do?”

The rest of the night was like two aliens talking. I was grounded, honest. Made eye contact, teased her a bit. Talked low and level, and I didn’t hide or obfuscate. I sagged when tired. She made eye contact, laughed, smiled, and relaxed. She joked and admitted how frazzled she was.

What does this mean? I don’t know. I do know I need to drag this nice guy out and beat him with a stick - he’s killing me.
Realizing I have been just as dishonest as her has been a revelation - as is realizing, for whatever reason, that some of those rules can NOT apply the way I’ve been interpreting them.

Maybe they are exceptions, maybe my W is different, or maybe this is me fundamentally misunderstanding the advice. Perhaps this is the path I’ve needed to take to really understand DBing.

But last night I went to sleep with a calmness and masculine energy that I don’t think I’ve ever felt. And I KNOW I felt attraction from my wife. It may still not work out - our situation is untenable and must change. But in the meantime I have work to do.

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I just read NMMNG the day before yesterday. I was wondering the exact same thing! I was dishonest about how I felt for fear of being rejected if I told her how I felt. Essentially I was very responsible for teaching her that she did not need to meet my needs and that those needs were not important to me.

She has shown some improvement with me doing this so far:
1. Validating her, I disagree that the divorce is the right thing to do but I "understand" her.
2. not pursuing her/asking what shes doing.
3. being honest about how I feel (discussing OR when she asks but never otherwise)
4. Not hiding that its destroying me but also not asking her to stop (This I think made the biggest change in her) she sees me doing everything to give her space and understand her but also sees that im fighting it hard to not be destroyed by it. She told me its breaking her heart. Early on when I acted "happy" and totally cool about the D she was like "oh okay he didn't care, guess I don't either." She was totally indifferent to me for the first 30 days or so. Now she touches me, she has kissed me twice and said "I just need time."
5. letting her come to me like a cat, don't chase the cat or you will get claws/resistance. Be safe for the cat and pleasant when the cat sits on your lap. DO NOT CHASE THE CAT.

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Steve_

I’m heartened to hear about your experiences. I find this very interesting, as this is a whole new world for me. Honesty to myself and to her about my emotions. I’d like to hear more about your experiences.

This is Day 3 of getting rid of the Nice Guy. Things feel different.

I’m still waiting for my book to arrive, but I’ve been eating up content like The Fearless Man on YouTube. Conversations with my W have been very smooth, and she actually acknowledges me when I enter a room. I can’t overemphasize how different that is. She’s also been sharing her state of mind in conversation a lot - when I prod her, make a joke, or increase the conversational tension (by not shying away from it or the pauses - the good kind of tension that I’m learning about), she relaxes and says “I’m so tired” or “I don’t even feel human.” I’m hearing her, really hearing her. She’s TIRED, in her soul. But there’s a want to not be - she’s not resigned.

I will say this - I’ve been much more masculine, grounded, and comfortable in my conversations. I’m starting to enjoy this tension, with words and body language. She says no to something, I stand my ground. BUT - here’s the kicker - I don’t do it with anger, but rather with humor, or a little teasing. That was the mistake I’d always made - when I tried to compensate for shying from tension, I’d throw the lever into Angry Mode. Now I’m sitting in the tension, and she’s responding.

Guys, there’s an actual red-blooded woman in there. And this is someone who’s been a cold-hearted Ice Queen for years.

Now that I’m shaving off my Nice Guy Syndrome in sheets, I’m seeing a different way the last few years played out. From my perspective, the raised-by-a-feminist, egalitarian perspective, I’ve been trying to hold up my end of a 50/50 partnership and getting shafted. But from a masculine/feminine energy perspective, our life together (rowdy kids, finances, job) put me to the test as a man... and I failed miserably. I got stressed, shrank, and cowered.

No, she hasn’t treated me with a modicum of respect for about 2 years. No, that’s not ok - that’s a sh!t thing to do to another human. And that will come into the balance if we reconcile, or whatever you call it from an in-home not-separation. But she is definitely responding to my picking up the slack and becoming grounded and comfortable with my male-ness.

If I had to put a finger on it, I could swear what I’m hearing in her body langauge is “what TOOK you so long?”

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Update -

Ok, I need to proceed with extreme caution. I could use advice.

I’m enjoying my newfound confidence. I let slip in conversation a “you look beautiful today.” It was genuine - she did, and she was smiling. This is where I need advice with this new recovering NGS before I stick my foot in something.

Being NGS is all about covering up how I’m feeling, which I’ve done for years. In being totally honest, it felt natural in that moment to say she looked pretty, because it’s what I was feeling, so I said it. Her reaction was a little stunned - I haven’t complimented her in probably 8 months since we’ve been on opposite sides of the emotional glacier.

Surprisingly, the rest of that conversation she did a lot of smiling and being open, which tells me she liked it (she certainly didn’t close off like she normally does). Later in the day she mentioned out of nowhere that she’d like to dye her hair and have her brows done - she hasn’t cared about her appearance in over a year.

In conversations the last few days, I’ve definitely found myself pushing into her space a lot, energetically. In an almost-flirty, confident, male charisma sort of way. Mostly to see if she’d push me back - and she hasn’t. She likes it and is opening up. This is new ground - I’ve been a classic nervous guy for years.

Here’s where I need advice - this could quickly lead to pursuing, or could be considered pursuing already. I’ve been advised by everyone that you can not resolve a sitch by pursuing. However, she is unmistakably open to the type of energy I’m pushing out.

What should I do with this? We haven’t resolved anything, and she is nowhere near apologizing for the way she’s acted. But there’s... chemistry there that has been missing for years. This is a head rush, so I’m taking it very slowly.

On standby, please advise.

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Originally Posted by Valeska19
Hoch,
It seems to me that you are getting lost in the minutia of all it. Step back. I always found that DBing can be about loving your wife or it can be used as a manipulation tool... the motive is based on the individual. Everything has two sides of the coin - it's about which side of the coin you want to play. Let's assume love and go from there.

It is loving to your wife and you to help with the chores REGARDLESS of what it leads to. Period. Not up for discussion
It is loving to your wife and you to say "no" at times in order to eliminate resentment in your heart.
It is loving to your wife and you to set a boundary if your wife is speaking to you in a way that is hurtful (blaming, criticizing, etc)
It is loving for your wife and you to self care... both of you. If she doesn't support your self care - it is still your responsibility to do it. (Ie: GALing)


Thank you, I’m starting to see what you mean. I definitely love my wife, but I’m finding more and more that I have strong manipulative tendencies - hence the NGS. I’m tearing them out as soon as I’m finding them. But I’m learning the roots go deep. DEEEEEP.

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Yes it is okay for do some acts of service. No it is not okay to do them if you are going to resent her later. No it is not okay to do them if it enabling a toxic behavior.

Honestly - so much of you is trying to get that perfect blueprint on how you should be but Hoch - every situation is different. I believe Sandi gave you some great advice around getting help with those kiddos. Have you looked into that yet?


I’m starting to learn that balance now, and I’ve practiced saying no to unreasonable requests at least once per day. It’s so hard to stay in that uncomfortable tension after, but I’m learning.

We are pursuing any childcare options. It’s so hard with the pandemic - and cases are on the rise. We can’t risk hardly any in-person. But we have school and are setting up behavioral services, and I’m getting my parents over as often as possible to see/watch them.

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I am sorry you have had so much hardship. It's just plain sh!tty. But i do think if you were to address some of those issues (the financial hardships, your kids, the move, etc) - it will be much more effective to your M than you trying to decide if you should do the dishes or not.

JMHO



Thank you for your kind words. Finances are still a bind, but since the move to a cheaper place they are leveling out. Pressures are starting to ease off, bit by bit. The smashing and throwing has gone WAY down, I’m so happy to report.

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Steve85 -

The more i think about what I said, the more it rings hollow. My wife may be depressed, but I don’t think our situation is an exception. Rather, I think I’m still just fundamentally misunderstanding the DB approach. Plus I figure with 7500 posts you probably know what you’re talking about.

I ran across this post in the R2C quotes thread:

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My wife felt like the last two weeks, where I had dropped the rope, that I was becoming cold and detached. So it's a fine line.

It just means you don't get it yet. Dropping the rope doesn't mean you are cold and detached. It means her problems are her problems, you are busy taking care of yourself, you don't get baited into a fight, you will let her come to you when she is ready, you are responsible for your own happiness and you won't waste energy on pursuing her. Be a cat whisperer.


I feel like this is the first time I GET it. Maybe I’m dense. Maybe I just needed to hear the correct word combination.

“It doesn’t mean you are cold and detached, it means her problems are her problems.”

I’m gonna keep posting in case my bumpy road helps someone else get it faster. I think that’s what I’ve been doing differently the last few days, besides owning my masculinity - I’ve been doing ACTUAL detaching/dropping the rope, but finally owning myself and staying open And available. Everything up to this point has been closing off and shutting down, which of course pushes people away.

EDIT -

It also shows just how many LAYERS of BULLSHIT my NGS has, in that even when I strip them away by the dozens, I still think being distant and closed off is honest and available. More lying to myself and wrapping myself in obfuscation. I’ll get it, but I’m gonna need to bring a backhoe to dig all this out.

Last edited by Hoch; 10/17/20 01:18 PM.
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I’m posting this quote from R2C’s thread because I think it’s more and more applicable to my situation. I need to read this over and over.

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Do you understand this? Your wife is not attracted to you. What would make your wife want to jump your bones? What does she need from you?

She needs space and time. I have to keep repeating that to myself. Space. Time. Space. Time. She's not leaving as long as I give her those two things.

No, not exactly. You can give her all the time & space in the universe but if you appear to be a weak sister to her then there is no way she's going to find that sexy! Don't you get it? She wants you to be sexy!

You are a 28 yr old man who is wanting to have sex with his wife....really badly. It has you to the point that you can't think of much of anything else. (Hey, I use to be married to a 28 yr old man.)

Anyway, you need to think about how you were when she met you and fell in love with you. She really wants to feel romantic love for you, but she can't. Maybe she doesn't know why....and maybe you don't know why....and maybe that C doesn't know, but honey....I know. She has another man on her mind (and perhaps more) and all she has to do is have a heart to heart with you and then you're convinced that everything is lovely. She can wrap you around her little finger, b/c you "want" to believe her. You "want" the M to be good.

So, here's the thing.....first of all, don't believe anything she tells you. Stop asking questions that she's going to lie about.

Next, set boundaries of the things you cannot tolerate in your M, b/c she needs to respect those boundaries or get out. Read Coach's thread on boundaries.

Now the big thing....work on a do-over for yourself. Get in shape, get a new look that says...."Look at me girl, you would be crazy to leave a man like me!" If you don't look cool and sexy, then find a friend who'll tell you what to do to get there. Polish up your manners, personality, social life and faith (not necessarily in that order).

Get your focus off of her. Act as if you are not hurt by what she does b/c after all...you are a man who is confident and you don't have to be reassured every day that she still loves you. (BTW,don't tell her you love her while all this stuff she's doing is going on...and don't tell her just to see if she'll say it back).

Get out of that house and find something to fill your life. Leave when she is there. Look smoking hot with a big smile, walk out the door with a "see ya" and no details of what your plans are. Do you get what I'm saying here?

She needs to see a strong, sexy, man who is desirable. When she said she felt like you were another child, that told the story right then and there. Stop whining, pleading,fishing, etc.

Now if you want her to want you? You act as if you could care "less" if you ever had sex with her again. Notice I said with her. Take cold showers, take care of your own needs....but you act as if she's your kid sister visiting and you're really trying to just be "nice". If you do this the right way....she'll be chasing after you. But this other stuff she's been doing?.....she's playing you, that's all.


I need to think back to who I was when we first got together. There was undeniable sexiness between us all those years ago. But I was different. I just need to remember WHO I was.

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Here’s another that’s helping me start to understand detachment. From pinhead in the R2C quote thread:

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So the trick for me is to give her non-threatening attention. Not to act as if I'm fine she's leaving, nor to push her out the door when she starts to be

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Last edited by job; 10/18/20 02:25 PM. Reason: added link to new thread

Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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