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So to add an update, I’m having a real hard time knowing where to set boundaries.

Like I said before, my wife has basically stopped functioning as a person by degrees. It’s obvious she’s depressed. She is making strides, but I am definitely feeling myself taken advantage of. I’m having a hard time knowing where to set boundaries, and where to follow the advice of “always be content and happy, give them the space they need.”

For example, I have a very stressful job that I am able to do from home remotely, but it takes tons of focus. Both the kids are crazy and high energy (and I mean HIGH energy... running into walls and throwing furniture and screaming pretty much constantly). The agreement when Covid started was that I would be able to work uninterrupted (since she’s a stay at home mom), and I would try to give her breaks as time allows (15-20 min for her to take a drive).

I get up with the kids at 6, then I hand them off to her at 9 when I start work. I used to request a break in there, since she used to get up at 8, but that would rarely happen.

Now, however, she’s waking up at noon, taking multiple hour-long breaks during the day, and I watch the kids for a full 11 hours every Saturday with no breaks. This is nuts. I know she’s healing and finding herself, but I have a job to do. Advice? I can’t tell if she’s taking advantage of me, or is so lost she can’t see it.

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Originally Posted by Hoch
So to add an update, I’m having a real hard time knowing where to set boundaries.

Like I said before, my wife has basically stopped functioning as a person by degrees. It’s obvious she’s depressed. She is making strides, but I am definitely feeling myself taken advantage of. I’m having a hard time knowing where to set boundaries, and where to follow the advice of “always be content and happy, give them the space they need.”

For example, I have a very stressful job that I am able to do from home remotely, but it takes tons of focus. Both the kids are crazy and high energy (and I mean HIGH energy... running into walls and throwing furniture and screaming pretty much constantly). The agreement when Covid started was that I would be able to work uninterrupted (since she’s a stay at home mom), and I would try to give her breaks as time allows (15-20 min for her to take a drive).

I get up with the kids at 6, then I hand them off to her at 9 when I start work. I used to request a break in there, since she used to get up at 8, but that would rarely happen.

Now, however, she’s waking up at noon, taking multiple hour-long breaks during the day, and I watch the kids for a full 11 hours every Saturday with no breaks. This is nuts. I know she’s healing and finding herself, but I have a job to do. Advice? I can’t tell if she’s taking advantage of me, or is so lost she can’t see it.


Hoch, this is tough. Because you are balancing trying to get her to live up to her agreement/responsibility, and not trying to control her. And I think that you need to tread lightly here.

Do you haven any other options for child care? Do you have relatives that could help? Are there any other options available to deal with this?

A lot of LBSs get boundaries wrong. Boundaries are not to get your WAS to act or not act, it is to guide your own actions. Let me give you an example. Maybe your boundary is that you will not tolerate disrespectful discussion from your WAS. Obviously you cannot control what comes out of your WAS' mouth. BUT, you can set a boundary for how YOU will act if it happens. Maybe your boundary is "If she starts to talk disrespectfully to me, I will end the conversation and walk away."

How that works in reality is when she starts belittling you, you look her in the eyes and say: "I refuse to be spoken to like that." Then turnaround and walkaway. Go for a drive, go do an activity, something. But notice, you're the one taking action based on the boundary, not her. Because you cannot control her.

So you need to look at boundaries not as "how do I get her to do what I want her to do?", and more "what do I do when she does things I cannot tolerate?"


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Here is my personal pattern that conveys a full message. It is based off of several "experts" in communication:

Sense- Observation (When you, I see….I hear…I read….
Thought (I believe….It seams to me…
Feelings
ANGER (I am frustrated…
SADNESS (I am disappointed…
FEAR (I am worried…
REGRET (I am sorry…
LOVE (I appreciate/understand…
Need (I want…What I propose ...I require… The response I would like to hear is.....
Consequence - My Future Response (If you choose not to….If you continue…

Quote
Dear wife,

I am writing this letter to share my feelings. When you expect me to take care of the children while I am working, I feel frustrated. I believe we had an agreement that you would watch the children from 9AM to 5PM to allow me uninterrupted work time. I am disappointed that that is not currently happening. I am worried that this pattern will continue and I will fall behind at work. I am sorry that I can't spend time with you and the children during the day. I appreciate all the time you do spend with the children. What I need from you is a commitment to watch the children while I work. If you can't do this, I will start investigating other options. I hope you understand why I need your support while I work.

Husband


There are many other feelings you can use. Look up feeling charts. This is just a guideline.

Verbal can also work, but I find the letter gives me more time to clarify what I am trying to say and not forget parts.

Wife, I have some important things I would like to say to you and would like you to listen until I am done. ....


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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This feedback is excellent. I am incorporating it into my outlook.

So, regarding what I had said previously, I did eventually stand up for my boundaries. She ended up being gone like 10-12 hours over three days, and I eventually had to put my foot down (gently and kindly of course) that I have my work hours, and I am supportive of her time away and self-care, so long as it comes after I prioritize my mental health and job performance, ie I can’t take on both of our jobs (child care, my job) simultaneously for long stretches of time.

She heard me, but sadly some kind of spell was broken. What I found, oddly, was that when I gave her (seemingly) unlimited time away from her responsibilities (as in, when I took on childcare AND my job, and let her leave whenever she wanted regardless of what I wanted), she softened considerably. During that time, she was kind, playful, apologetic, considerate, and even began getting physically closer and more relaxed.

So now I know what triggers her positive changes. It’s just that it involves a complete detachment from her responsibilities. I’m kinda stumped, because I want those changes to occur - it’s just unsustainable.

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Originally Posted by Hoch
This feedback is excellent. I am incorporating it into my outlook.

So, regarding what I had said previously, I did eventually stand up for my boundaries. She ended up being gone like 10-12 hours over three days, and I eventually had to put my foot down (gently and kindly of course) that I have my work hours, and I am supportive of her time away and self-care, so long as it comes after I prioritize my mental health and job performance, ie I can’t take on both of our jobs (child care, my job) simultaneously for long stretches of time.

She heard me, but sadly some kind of spell was broken. What I found, oddly, was that when I gave her (seemingly) unlimited time away from her responsibilities (as in, when I took on childcare AND my job, and let her leave whenever she wanted regardless of what I wanted), she softened considerably. During that time, she was kind, playful, apologetic, considerate, and even began getting physically closer and more relaxed.

So now I know what triggers her positive changes. It’s just that it involves a complete detachment from her responsibilities. I’m kinda stumped, because I want those changes to occur - it’s just unsustainable.


Hoch, you can't have it both ways. Of course she is pleasant when she is doing what she wants when she wants to. But that is just not the way the world works. She will either like you or respect you through this. Guess which one gets you closer to what you want?

Respect is paramount at this point. I would suggest you sit down and put into writing what you need from a childcare standpoint. Think of it almost as a custody agreement (because basically that is what it is). Make sure you are including ample time for YOU to have alone time and time to go off and GAL. It should be fair and balanced. This may upset her and she may not remain softened towards you. But she will respect you for standing up for yourself.


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Thank you for this. I’m so far inside it, it’s very helpful to have an outside perspective.

What are the two ways I’m trying to have it? That can help me focus my path.

You say she will respect me for standing up for myself, but through this whole thing one of her primary complaints is that I’m controlling her (I’m not). She rails against my ‘control,’ which is in fact trying to get her to do her share of the life she repeatedly selected and won’t attempt to change.

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The two ways you are trying to have it is for her to like you (be pleasant and soft) and respect you (you standing up for yourself).

Controlling is not trying to stand up for yourself. And do not put much stock into what she says. WSs are not to be trusted. Believe nothing she says, and only half of what she does.


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I have to say that staying home every day to take care of two little boys like you've described......would not be good for me.......and I would not be good for my family. I don't know that I could last in that environment day in and day out, without something else to take me away from it for a few hours. My mind would need a distraction or peace/calm long enough to help balance the situation at home. Is there structure at home, or are the kids allowed to throw things into the wall, etc? You've said one child had special needs, and you said they both were high needs children. What does high needs mean?

You said something about not having a support network. Does this mean you have nobody to help with them, or does it mean family/friends don't understand? I'm sure you are aware there are agencies and schools with programs that offer parents support with special needs children. There are some facilities that offer respite to parents of special needs children who want to spend an evening out, or the weekend, whatever. I hope I don't sound patronizing, but have you sought out all the available resources in your area? FWIW, many years ago I worked a very short time with parents of special needs children. It was quite an experience for me to hear their personal stories and how it had affected every area of their lives. As the old saying goes, "until you've walked in their shoes"........and I hadn't, so it left me with much admiration for parents with children with any type of special needs.

If her depression was noticeable after the first child was born, and it didn't get better after the second birth, then my first thoughts lean toward imbalanced hormones. Not only does it cause depression, but it can kill her desire for sex, as well. Has she been to a medical doctor about these issues? Is she taking any medicine? Staying home all day, every day, is not always the best thing for many women who are in the best of situations. It doesn't mean they are bad mothers or don't love their kids enough, it's just how that individual is wired. Which child is special needs?

You mentioned some tragedy in the past. Were you a couple at that time? Did she receive any therapy to deal with it?

Her father is terminally ill, so that is heaping more stress and depression on her. Does she talk to you about her feelings, fears, etc, or does she keep it stored up inside?

Quote
Then lockdown together with our two boys, and deep financial and logistical problems. I played it very low key for over a month and things seemed to be cooling. But I finally had to confront (kindly) her about her behavior/rudeness to me (on air with my boss), and she reiterated she “doesn’t see this going anywhere and wants a divorce.” I finally said, ok, can we at least not use lawyers? And she stopped cold, later walking it back that she “ still hopes this has a happy ending.”


To me, this describes a woman who wants out of a stressful and unhappy sitch. It starts out with her threatening a divorce when you confront her about her inappropriate behavior. Instead of her apologizing and correcting it, she throws up the D card. How serious she is........nobody knows, but I can tell you that once she starts threatening, it will weigh on her mind more & more. The fact that she blames you for everything, says she doesn't take responsibility for her part in this situation, IMHO. Maybe some of that comes from not being held accountable when she was growing up, or after she became an adult. Perhaps you are the only one she sees to blame, depending on how small her world has become. IDK, just speculating. She seems overwhelmed and doesn't know how to cope. Would she accept help from others, or is she type who doesn't want it or trust anyone else? Does she seem to like her IC okay?

Have you ever suspected her of taking drugs that would cause her behavior to be erratic......or do you feel this comes from something else? Any mental illness in her family?

Quote
Says she wants a divorce every time I stand up against the rage, but then walks it back. Makes plans for togetherness in the future, but seems happy having a completely disconnected marriage with no touching or closeness, though she promotes deep closeness with the kids. Is kind to me at a distance, but fights back any attempts to improve the marriage, and won’t move to actually split. Everything is “my fault.” Color me confused.


For some women, they feel if they show affection or closeness, the H will want to take it to the bedroom. If she is not feeling the desire for sex, then she may be taking caution to not signal you to have sex with her. My advice is try not to take it too personally. That may sound nuts, but whatever is going on with her may have nothing to do with you directly.

Apparently, she is not quite ready to file for divorce, b/c she just threatens. Now, if you lose your cool and tell her to go do the paperwork, or force her into a corner about it........then she just may go through with it. Put it down as her stress talking, but don't EVER tell her she doesn't mean what she says (even though she doesn't) b/c then she is challenged to prove you wrong.

Don't tell a woman how she feels, or how she should feel. And, don't try to fix her. That is very insulting to her. Although the H is trying to help her from a place of love, it makes her feel inadequate and lowers her self esteem. You asked about complimenting her. If she has become wayward, then I'd say no. However, if she is depressed, then I see nothing wrong with it.......as long as you don't overkill with compliments, b/c then it sounds fake and like a$$ kissing and it's ruined. My suggestion, if you have the talent, is to say things that might build her self value in other things other than just physical appearances. Stay at home moms don't get a lot of credit for what they do. Even you referred to it as her job, and I get what you meant. The difference is, her job doesn't end after a shift or at the end of the day. She's on call 24/7. I'm not saying you were wrong to remind her what each of you had to do during this lock-down. Sometimes, you just have to do it if she acts as if you should be helping out with the kids during your working hours. I've seen it become a problem when the H stays home to work obtaining a degree or run his business, b/c the W loses or forgets the reason for him being there. She starts expecting him to do all the housework, cook, wash, run her errands, etc. So, then he needs to pull her aside to get things in perspective again.

Every woman likes to feel she is still pretty, but sometimes (especially if things are a bit rocky) it's safer to direct the compliment toward a particular ability she has.......like cooking an especially good meal, or whatever. But if she's avoiding sex, then she is going to be suspicious of you pouring on the compliments. Try one, and if she ignores it or turns off, then don't give another one for about a week.

I'll comment on the lighthouse and other things in my next post. Don't stop posting. Even if it's just a few words, don't stop.

One more question. Have either of you been guilty of inappropriate behavior with the opposite sex since you've been married?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Hi Hoch,

There are many poster here I respect, ,Sandi2 and Steve85 are two of them. They are very wise and I strongly suggest following their advise and clarifying any questions they ask you. Be grateful they are posting to you.



There are changes in your behavior that need to happen. If you are like most posters, you will make the wrong changes in the wrong order, at the wrong time and for the wrong reasons. That is OK. The important thing is growing. Become a better version of you. During this extremely difficult time of your life, you take a good hard look at yourself and decide what changes you want to make.

Most guys do not know what is attractive to women. Do your research in this area. Drop the negative traits. Pick up new positive ones. I do not try to control my woman. My goal is to understand her. Help her get to a relaxed state. Meet her needs in bed before mine. I do about 3% of the talking when we "talk". My role is to listen and understand and relate to her emotional state. The more she talks, the more relaxed she will be later.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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Sandi2 - Thank you for your kind words. You ask a bunch of great clarifying questions, let me try to fill out a little more of the story.

We have two boys, 5 and 2. The oldest is suspected of being on the spectrum, or possibly ADHD, or both. At the very least, he has deep sensory needs and always needs to be moving/slamming/bouncing. He’s been that way since he was born - we couldn’t put him down, or he’d never stop crying (and I mean never - pediatricians said he lacked the ability to deescalate/re-regulate). The 2 year old doesn’t have these inherent needs, but has developed a set of similar intense learned behaviors from his brother. They destroy books, throw chairs, drown TV remotes, and run on couches.

I’ve tried to describe it to parents or friends when they say, “heh, yeah kids are a handful.” Somehow I can’t quite communicate the intensity or constancy of it. My best analogy is, and pardon my disclosure, but have you ever had a
moment where you dropped your keys down a vent, tried to catch them and shattered your phone against the floor, spilled your coffee, hit your head on a door and fell down the stairs? That, but for 5 years.

We don’t have a support network, at all. Both my wife and I are from the same town, our families live minutes apart. For the last 14 years, we’ve lived about 3 hours away from them (where I went to school, and later where my career industry was located and where the kids were born). In the last year we moved 500 miles further away, for my dream job (which I’ve been trying to get for 15 years), but it further isolated us. While I wanted the job, I was ready to turn it down for the family, but my wife talked me into taking it - though she later said she only did it because she “had to” (?).

My wife doesn’t have any friends. She’s just never been very good at making them, or if she does, she doesn’t keep them very long / fails to maintain the friendship. My guess is that it comes from a place of deep insecurity. I’ve always been supportive of her finding time to be with friends, or to go to meetups where she might meet people, but she’s always had an excuse not to. Until recently we had friendly couples with kids, but they were always my work buddies, and my wife would never spend time with them if I wasn’t there.

So there has been no support network. That means, no days off, no date nights, no vacations. We’ve had 3 date nights in 5 years, and that’s been precious babysitter money that we didn’t really have (the cost of living is strangling us). The finances are a separate thing, and I’ll try to explain:

I’ve never wanted to be a sole breadwinner. I don’t have that particular patriarchy gene - I much prefer an open partnership. However, as soon as we became pregnant the first time, my wife called me sobbing and said she wanted to quit her job (which was admittedly toxic). I said, hey - why don’t you leave, you’re really unhappy, and I can cover us for a while. I didn’t want to, but I did make that decision, though we talked about her finding another one soon since I can’t support us on one income for long. That was six years ago. Since that time, I’ve suggested, asked, and *begged* for her to get another job, ANY job, because we are hemorrhaging money and I can’t do it alone, and she has battered me back and refuses. We’ve burned through all our savings and both our retirements and she still won’t budge, so it’s become a HUGE point of contention between us. I resent being made the sole breadwinner, she resents being asked to work.

I’ve also suggested, helped, and tried to get a playgroup going, helped her plan activities for co-op learning, helped her schedule a sitter swap all so she could have time away. She somehow always manages to let those opportunities pass. Even though I work more than full time in our new town, I’ve managed to find two other moms and kids at parks and gave their numbers to my wife to set up play dates. They never happened.

So yes, my wife is overwhelmed. Completely. And deeply depressed. However, she has also resisted literally every attempt I’ve made to help her alleviate the situation, which has been monumentally frustrating for me. I see the situation getting worse and she actively refuses all help, and I haven’t been able to turn it around.

You asked about her personality, and that describes it pretty well. When she’s up, she’s light and playful. When she’s down, she refuses all help, hides her emotions, and says she’s fine. Her mother is the same way, but is also (in my opinion) a textbook narcissist and her despair/depression takes over the room at family gatherings.

Growing up, my wife’s mother was depressed, and her father was terminally ill (he has a degenerative disease that will eventually kill him). Between them, there was no room for the kids. My wife’s siblings all found some form of rebellion and identity, but my wife was basically the good, quiet, peacekeeper of the family. Which left her to slowly implode while hiding everything about who she is.

She was that way when we got together. I saw the spark of beauty in her, and we slowly found her voice together. It was wonderful. I thought those days were past - we were a strong couple that discussed everything and shared our feelings. But then kids came along and all the old dysfunction swung back into full effect, leaving me dumbfounded and without my partner to help problem solve.

As to her trauma, she was in a car accident when she was 17, in which the other driver (a DUI) was killed. My wife was blameless - he was going 70 in the wrong direction. But still, my wife had to talk to and console his wife and kids on the phone, because she’s the “consummate peacekeeper.” I’m sure it still haunts her to this day.

She did receive therapy at the time, but he was a bad therapist - he wanted her to take lithium and shut up. She developed a bad relationship with IC from there - I believe with her current therapist she pays him lip service and they talk about surface stuff, and she only goes because I pressured her (my mistake after reading this board, but her behavior had become deeply depressed and verbally abusive).

She has talked to me many times in past years about her sadness over her dad, and I’ve always been there to comfort her - except now, she just says she hopes he “dies soon.” I think she just can’t take it anymore, and it’s heartbreaking to watch. He’s basically the kind stoic gentleman, so to watch him degrade is very hard.

So that about sums up my/her situation. She has deep as well as ongoing trauma, and we are in a crushing situation. However, she has also resisted nearly every effort to improve the situation, and I am nearly at my wits end. Forgive my lack of humility, but I consider myself a rather centered, rational and optimistic person, and this has left me completely fried as to what I can do. I love my wife and partner, but I feel like she has unraveled in front of me and I’m powerless to stop it. She is completely isolated - absolutely no contact - and yes, I think as a result everything has become my fault as I’m the only non-child human in her life right now.

I definitely hear my own words in all this and I don’t want to sound particularly accusatory, but you’re also hearing me in like Season 12 of my ongoing situation, and there’s only so much an optimist can do in the face of irrationality before they start to feel jaded. I don’t want to be jaded - I want to find solutions.

Also as to your question about services - thank you. We’ve gotten services from everything from the state to the school board for my older son, but somehow they always want to do “more tests” before telling us they’re “inconclusive.” He currently has an ABA (applied behavioralist) who is helping, somewhat. We are using all the help we can get, and will continue to look for more. I love my sons dearly and will do anything for them. It’s so difficult to see my kids unregulated, my wife spiraling, my family slipping apart, and not be able to *act*.

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