Moving On

[wayfarer]

I second so much of all of the prior posts. Literally everything Allison said was gold. I think the biggest point there is you have to let him figure all of this out on his own. All of it. Not piecemeal. His feelings. His plans going forward. All of it.

Steve's post was gold too. You have time here. You are seeing the situation for what it is. But don't rush this because you're in pain. Slow down if you need to. Do nothing for a minute. I know we do so we have some control, but you don't have to do that. You can honestly sit back relax and watch him tire himself out like a toddler or a puppy and take action when you're more than good and ready. And you know it's not a knee jerk reaction to his stupidity.

FS has a lot of good stuff there for you about protecting and taking care of yourself and how being non-reactionary even if you can't detach is such a good way to do that.

Honestly the only thing in the prior posts I'd be iffy about is the kid stuff. H is still firmly planted in your bed and terrified to move in either direction. Just let it be. And if that time comes, deal with it then. you don't need to rush this any more than you do a D or kicking H out. Take your time here. I do think he should be the one to tell the kids. But while you're girls aren't babies they aren't as old as mine either and I don't know how appropriate it is to dump the A on them. I think something like this needs to be an age and situation appropriate information trickle. Forcing WS/WAS to traumatize their children to me has always felt super manipulative. But that's just me. I told H that he needed to explain to the girls why he was on the couch, and I didn't care what he said but I needed to know how much he was or wasn't telling them that I'd get on board because one of my priorities was doing what I could to preserve his relationship with both of them to the best of my ability. (Shouldn't have done that in retrospect since he got so caught up he had forgotten our kids at school more than once to be with OW among other things he did to just collapse those relationships) I stand by not traumatizing them unnecessarily though. And be there for the conversation. I also opted out of that. And that was a mistake. Less so with D17 she was very clear about how she was feeling about what was going on and was able to steer the conversation. But with D16 he pulled this "don't you just want me to be happy?" BS, and the only push back she was able to give was "but what if the rest of us were happy the way things were?" Which then led him down a path of well I'm not happy so I'm making WF unhappy, and if I don't leave we'll all be unhappy soon. Your H is so delusional right now, I don't want him to say something super inappropriate or unhealthy or insane to your kiddos with out you being there to guide the conversation or shut it down entirely.

You're doing so well my dear. Stay strong. Stay focused. Take care of you.

[unchien]

may ~ I don't have much to add here that hasn't been said with much greater eloquence. But I wanted to say a couple things regarding your kids.

WAS's will absolutely manipulate the situation so that they are the victim. They can make the LBS feel cornered so that they have choice A (stay in limbo) or choice B (traumatize the kids). This leaves one feeling powerless. You do have control over your own life, even though the WAS's words and actions can make you feel otherwise.

I was stuck for several months with this mentality in my (completely different) situation. I eventually decided on choice C: I decided to have faith that my love for my kids would show through, and I decided I would focus on that. I will NEVER tell my children my version of what happened. Not now, not when they are adults. Maybe they will blame me, maybe my WAW will weaponize them. I did not make this decision trying to be the bigger person... it was the best way I could see through, and I felt like I was giving my children the gift of keeping them out of this awful drama as much as I could. All that kids want is to have 2 loving parents. Perhaps they will judge me, now or in the future. I can't control that.

Just some thoughts... You are incredibly strong and doing such a great job in really challenging circumstances. Hang in there!

[may22]

Thanks, everyone. You've given me a lot to work with and I really appreciate it. I'm going to think on a lot of this and respond, but first just wanted to give you an update.

Yesterday I think I had about 8 hours on my own, which hasn't happened in... I'm not sure how long. Obviously not since coronavirus started, but even before that I'm mostly at work or at home or with friends and never on my own. That space was hugely helpful. I did spend an hour or so on the phone with my friend, processing my new anger and where I feel now, and time here on the boards. I reached out to two more attorneys to get more than one opinion, hopefully can schedule some appointments this week. I worked on financial spreadsheets with various scenarios. I had had a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of H getting an apartment, thinking we couldn't afford that, and/or it is so selfish of him to take that money away from the family just because of X. But the truth is, I need space from him, he needs space from me, and we have the money even if we have to dip into our savings. Money shouldn't be the excuse for stopping this necessary action to happen.

I was really, really angry yesterday. I used that to fuel this and really sit with H being ... just not a good person. A liar, a cheater, totally self-absorbed, sad and immature and unable to deal with the natural consequences of his own actions. I was wanting to boot him out but as you guys are all saying (and I took from previous suggestions here) I decided I wanted to sit with this before taking any major action. I want to meet with an attorney before I make any real proposals.

I have held this "I don't want to be the one" feeling for so long, I don't want to let it go out of anger and then regret. After a couple of hours of really trying to process this, I am still sitting with the "I don't want to be the one." My friend pressed me on this yesterday-- is that for me? or for him? I said I think for both-- for me, I don't want to look back on this and feel like I was the one to pull the trigger. That we are at a precipice brought here by the actions of my H, but I'm not prepared at this point to be the one to kick it over the cliff. And for him-- maybe petty, maybe controlling, definitely demonstrating I'm not fully detached-- I simply don't want to give him this excuse. He doesn't get to offload this one on me. At least not yet.

The other thing I sat in all day yesterday was what it would be like to be Ded from H. And I have to say-- maybe anger-fueled-- but for the first time it didn't seem scary. It seemed a relief. Once I accepted as truth that he isn't just a damaged human being that has made a mistake, but he's a lying cheater who I can't believe or trust-- and he is simply not in a place where he can make any kind of recommitment to the M-- there is no point in trying. The only path for me forward is to accept where I am and move forward on my own, prioritizing my own emotional safety and healing. I went through what I'd say to my parents, to friends. I am letting go of any chance of R. I don't want to R with this person. He isn't someone I need in my life any more than absolutely necessary.

He came home with the kids and tried to hug me. I did not physically respond. I spoke to him and said I was done talking. That he knows what I think and I know what he thinks. That I finally believe him and I am no longer going to talk to him about this. But I'm ready to move on and while I'm still not going to make his decision for him, he should know that I'm fine with that choice, I believe that is what he wants in his heart and I'm not standing in his way.

He kind of flipped out. Why was I so angry, why was I ruining Father's Day. He tried to argue with me and I simply said no, no, I don't want to talk about this anymore. Why can't he live in the basement, why can't I be friends, isn't that in the best interests of the children, I'm the one choosing to make this more difficult, etc. I didn't engage. I did say I thought it was cruel and wrong of him to ask that of me but I didn't want to talk about it anymore. He said he can't just leave and go to a hotel and just be gone. We need to talk to the girls. I said yes, of course we would do that first. He said can't he just go down to the basement and live there while they get used to the idea. I said I didn't think that was good for me, or frankly, good for him. If he wants to feel like what it would be like for us to be apart, we actually need to be apart. Living in the basement is continued cake-eating and disrespectful to me. He said he feels like I have made the decision for him, just now in the other way. I said no. This is your decision. But I'm also working on what i need to do for me. Then he said OK, maybe first step I should move to the office. I said that is a good idea.

Then he completely deflated. He said it is impossible for him to do this if it means that we can't still be a family for the children. I said, they'll be fine. They're resilient. You'll get plenty of time with them. He sat around for a long time, moped in the bathroom, turned on the shower and didn't get in. I ignored it all. Dinner, Mandalorian, girls wanted to go to sleep in the MB with me cuddling them and I thought... why not. So I did, I fell asleep too, then came out a little after 10. He hadn't taken his pillow and was lying sadly in the office on the futon, not pulled out. No covers, no phone, just staring into the darkness. (so dramatic.) He asked where the kids were, I told him in my bed. Oh, *my* bed now? he asked. I just looked at him for a long time, then I said, "our bed." (maybe shouldn't have said.) Then I asked him if he wanted his pillow.

He said he hasn't made any decisions, he doesn't know what to do, blah blah blah. I didn't say anything, just looked at him and then said I was tired and going to bed. He said he was going to move the girls back to their bed and sleep in ours tonight. I said fine. He moped all sadly to the bedroom and got into bed. He lay there and asked me if I thought his feelings for AP were an addition, like a drug, how would I treat it differently. I said, if you had a drug addiction, I would try to support you through recovery. But you would have to want it to recover. That part is up to you, not to me. And you've told me you don't want that. Then I went to sleep and got eight straight hours for the first time in a looooong time.

This morning, he's bounced back and forth between trying to engage me in arguing (I can't believe you decided you had to do this on Father's Day... you couldn't have just waited one day and let me enjoy the rest of my evening with the kids (ha! ha! ha!)... you know that it is YOUR CHOICE not to be my friend, you are CHOOSING to do this, not me...in the Gottman book he says that SSM is akin to an affair so you basically had an affair for seven years and now you're treating me like this... (that last one got me started but I recovered and disengaged). Those are interspersed with trying to extra nice and jokey or then acting sad and mopey. A bird got into the house and was flying around. I called him and asked him to take care of it, which he did. Then he hugged me (I allowed this which I should not have) and then said see, I am good for something. I shrugged and said, I guess, and then walked away. He said "ouch" and stood there. I feel pretty calm watching all this... although I had been so sure yesterday he would jump on my new attitude and take it as the opportunity to actually walk, was ready to start the ball really rolling on some of these things, it is a little hard to see him now starting to back down. I know this is just the pursuer-distancer dynamic and also him trying to abdicate responsibility. I just need to stay strong where I am because it is the right thing to do, for me, and not let him have this power over me.

I think one of my challenges is going to be that the reality I embraced yesterday is the reality of who H really is, right now, who is not someone I want to live with or partner with in any way. He isn't someone I want in my life. I'm disgusted by his selfishness, his cowardice, his lying, his inability to stand up and take responsibility for his own actions and try to make right. He just can't do it. And no amount of me wanting him to is going to make that happen. In this scenario, I am losing all desire for R because I don't want to be with this person in any way.

The other vision of him is the one I've been hanging onto all this time, a damaged but fundamentally good human being who has made a lot of big mistakes and is trapped by them, but that the possibility remains that he could make the right choice/choices and do the work to recover. I feel a little tugged back in this direction, especially when he is sad and mopey and asking me questions about how he could let her go. I think probably, in the end, he is both... but I don't really know that I have the capacity right now to be able to cognitively hold both of those at the same time. I think leaning on the a$$hole is my path to healing. This would be all so much easier without the children.

I know that consistency is important and sitting with where I am for awhile is as well. I found myself wanting to lash out in anger yesterday and was able to control that. today I feel tugs of wanting to be kind or responsive and I want to control those as well. I completely agree with the time and space suggestions-- I don't want to do anything rash, I want to sit with these feelings and be OK with them while I continue to enforce my new boundaries.

Thanks, friends. I'll respond separately to all the good thoughts you've posted for me. xx

[may22]

Curtis, Scout, Wayfinder, Pommy, Unchien... i have been thinking quite a bit about what and how to tell the children. (I think it was on Scout's thread that I posted my friend and I were joking whether or not it would be age-appropriate to say "Daddy couldn't keep his wee-wee in his pants, so we're getting divorced.") I am comfortable for now telling them that Mommy and Daddy have some things to work out and Daddy is going to sleep (ideally offsite) for awhile. I think eventually it will need to be something along the lines of what Chumplady espouses, when you get married you agree to not have any other boyfriends or girlfriends, and Daddy has a new girlfriend, so we can't be together anymore. For awhile I felt like making him say Daddy doesn't love Mommy like that anymore, which is also true and maybe what they should hear. I don't know. But for now I am comfortable not throwing all the blame on him for this first step. For a long time I wasn't. And as much as I wanted to protect the children from having to know any of it, I just don't see that as a viable possibility anymore. We are here. H is incapable of letting his AP go on his own, and therefore incapable of working on the MR. Under these circumstances, I see no course other than needing to go our separate ways. It breaks my heart to have to do this to the children, but I simply see no other option at the moment.

Alison-- I can take the baby 2x4s The sad thing about his last visit... no, I didn't know it. I am an overly trusting person, I think. It is a fault of mine in the workplace. I am a terrible interviewer as I tend to like everyone and never can pick out the bad ones, and then am always shocked when something goes wrong. I have colleagues who sit in on interviews now who have better spidey senses than I do. Now that he says it happened, it isn't shocking-- I'm over all the shock of each new drip drop of truth-- but I guess I wanted it to be true so imagined it so. I do think it also had to do with the fact that I hadn't fully acknowledged to myself the extent and depth of his R with AP. It is so clearly to me a fantasy that I don't get why he can't snap out of it. Whereas to him it is True Love, leaving her is breaking promises to her. Earlier in the week when we were still talking about this kind of thing, he said to me, if a spouse dies, no one says you'll just get over it. They say eventually, you'll learn to live with the pain. That is how I feel about losing her. It has taken all of this to finally believe that our M is over. It isn't just a crack. It is shattered on the ground and he's been building a new R with someone else in his head if not in reality for two and a half years. Time for me to accept what he's been trying to tell me and move on. But at the time when he broke it off with her, I didn't want to see that-- I wanted to believe that we just had a crack and it was fixable with enough effort and glue and TRYING on my part. I didn't realize that deep down, he didn't really want to fix it.

(Side note. He just came into the office where i'm working and asked to tell me something. He said he wanted to say it in a vacuum and not have me respond with anything. I said OK. He said, "I never should have let another person into our marriage. That was wrong and I shouldn't have done it. I should have dealt with our issues in another way. I want you to know that I realize that and I'm sorry." I didn't say anything for a minute and then said, ok. thank you for saying that. He said, I know I did it and we are here now. But I know it was wrong and I wanted you to hear that from me. I said, ok. He said, it never meant I stopped loving you or love you any less. I said, I don't think that is love. He said ok, nodded, and left the room. Was this interaction OK? Should I let him say this stuff to me as long as I can listen and not respond?)

On the Shirley Glass book, you're totally right. But we had that conversation the night that he told me about the reconnecting (ugh, is that BD#4? really, people? what am I still doing here?) and I ordered it from Amazon the next day. It arrived Saturday and I left it in the Amazon packaging, didn't open it. He asked what was in it and I said I thought the Shirley Glass book. When I was gone in the afternoon he opened it and read it himself. Again, I know I pushed him to do this. But it was before all our conversations about boundaries and me realizing that I am/was still trying to manipulate him. I'm not anymore. (Or I'm trying my very best not to.)

Other things I can fill my headspace with... lots of plans for a puppy or a kitten. D8 would be insane with joy. Trying to refocus on my actual job too even though I'm really sick of it and dealing with some real a$$holes there too...but short term I think probably better to stick it out here for a bit. I have a session with my executive coach tomorrow to work through a lot of this. Looking around at rooms and what will stay and what will go, how can I reclaim this house for ME and the girls. I planted a vegetable garden during this time and it is going nuts. Yoga. Maybe a big fat juicy fun novel. All last week I have been pretty mopey and H has picked up most of the slack with cooking/cleaning/laundry. I am back in it and taking care of things myself.

Steve, I 100% hear you, not making decisions out of emotion is really important to me and I could actually hear you and others' advice on this topic in my head yesterday as I was coming to this realization. No need to make any big moves. I think the best thing I can do is to continue to keep my head down, interactions to a minimum, no R talks (or at least none where I say anything), and try the best I can to turn the focus on me for awhile. Not the kids, not my H. Me. You and Scout are also totally right that he is really invested in the narrative of him not being the bad guy. (At one point early on when we were fighting and I said everyone would know he was a total cheating a-hole, he said you don't need to tell people that, you don't want people feeling sorry for you. I said, I'm not going to lie to my friends. He tried to go the kid way (do you want to scar them like that, people knowing this?) and then when that didn't work said, ok fine, I'll just have to tell people that you didn't sleep with me for seven years and I'll be the one they feel sorry for. I was like, OK, that is fine with me.) I think he hopes that somehow this can all work out when she moves out here and no-one will have to know she was his side piece for the past three years, that our M just didn't work out and how lucky for him to have found true love a second time around.

Another sidebar question-- he thinks that if he stays in the M, it will be out of fear and he'll become a cliche, the man who could have had happiness and didn't have the b@lls to take the step.. Whereas I feel like him leaving for a 34 year old AP is like the total stereotypical cliche. Am I wrong? I was wondering if it was a female-male thing-- women think the cliche is the H leaving for his secretary and men think the cliche is letting the light die out of your eyes slowly every day until you die??)

FS, your post is so true. It is incredibly difficult and I'm not good at being fueled by anger in the long term. Also because in the day-to-day he is not, unfortunately, a complete and unrepentant a-hole, it is difficult to reconcile that H with the lying cheater. I have to keep it running in my head. I can see how I could easily do this in tiny blips of interactions for a long period of time... it is hard to keep up when you are in the same house. But I'll continue to work on that and also actual detaching. Those phrases are perfect.

Thanks everyone. I think it takes me some time to get around to where I need to be but I think I'm on the right path. Just need to figure out how to stick to it now and not backslide.

[may22]

Pommy... yes, H's therapist even called out AP's manipulativeness to H (according to him). But he doesn't see it like that because her motivations are so pure (True Love) it makes it romantic for him and not f-ing terrifying as it properly should be.

U, I also wanted to say you're spot on with where H has me-- between limbo and hurting the kids. (Now my choice to not be best friends is hurting the kids, but his choice to pursue his affair is him being true to his authentic self.) I refuse to accept this. I do have a little fear about this new standoff and how long it may last and if I can keep it up without breaking-- him refusing to make a choice and trying to push all the blame and decision-making on me, me refusing to capitulate on either. When he says things about my fault in all this (the SSM) or I could just choose to be friends with him for the girls' sake, I have started to say "if it helps you to see it that way, that is ok, but you aren't going to convince me of anything and I think we should stop talking about it."

Of course, in his world, I'm putting him in a untenable situation of his own-- between giving up his one chance at happiness and hurting the kids. And because he believes I control the kids happiness with my refusal to enter into a fantasy D situation, I have all the power there and he is going to be railroaded into an unhappy, passionless M where he looks in the mirror and wishes he was with AP every day for the rest of his life. Of course I don't want that either. I don't really see a path for R for us. Does that mean I have to bite the bullet and make the call myself because that is the only viable path I see in front of me right now? I don't know... again, I just need to sit with all of this for awhile again. I've come a long ways in the last week. Here's to this next week being just as productive.

[may22]

ooh also, Pommy, not that it matters but... the ex the AP is flirting with getting back together again with *is* from 2.5 years ago. She actually cheated on him with H. That is how their R started. And the sex they had recently was VIDEO SEX. But, you know, AP and H early on decided they would have "radical transparency" so of course she had to tell him, and unfortunately I didn't yet have the boundaries in place to plug my ears from having this garbage poured into them. The guy she is talking about traveling with is someone else, her best friend's husband's brother, who apparently she's used in the past to try to make H jealous also as H said "this guy is a loser and he's always had a thing for her." He's also "scared" she'll settle for her ex-BF (who is also a "loser") just to try to get over H and have a sad and unfulfilled life which will then all be his fault because he abandoned her.

I'm not joking. He told me all of this. (And the sad part is that I listened, I am seeing now. I'm a slow learner.)

I am so sad and angry to have been drawn into this pathetic triangle without my knowledge or consent.

[cardinal]

May, you are doing so well—processing all of this in double-time, it seems—and I’m just glad you’re also taking a breath (many breaths!) and allowing yourself as much time as you need to just be, through all the cr*p (can’t remember if that is censored!)... because this is a lot. A lot for your H to keep thinking he can put on you, since he still seems to be unable to process anything he is going through without wanting to have you process it for him/alongside him. Keep enforcing or expanding that boundary as you find you need to to protect yourself. And it’s just a lot for you to process in terms of your career, choices you will make regarding the children, etc. Give yourself time.

Also this struck me—

(At one point early on when we were fighting and I said everyone would know he was a total cheating a-hole, he said you don't need to tell people that, you don't want people feeling sorry for you. I said, I'm not going to lie to my friends. He tried to go the kid way (do you want to scar them like that, people knowing this?) and then when that didn't work said, ok fine, I'll just have to tell people that you didn't sleep with me for seven years and I'll be the one they feel sorry for. I was like, OK, that is fine with me.)

—Because it seems every time H told someone after BD that we were D it was because he hadn’t been happy for a long time (of course news to me) and—he had to throw this in—because I didn’t have sex with him for so many years. Not to downplay the hurt he must have been just then acknowledging and feeling, but... these WAH/WH really need to find justifications, don’t they? Particularly, it seems, when being “the bad guy” is a real fear for them.

Also, ugh, the continuous shifting of blame—i.e. you choosing to ruin his Father’s Day? Please! Don’t pick that up. Focus on you. Is there some really good meal you can pick up/make for yourself? Something that will nourish you, body and soul? Novels, yes; kittens and/or puppies, yes.

Anyway, still reading along—following all of this fabulous advice—and sending love to you.

[AlisonUK]

May, if you can afford the time and work and expense, and if it would make your girls happy and you can commit to the care, I strongly recommend a puppy. I got one a couple of months after H left the house last year. It was such a sad time. I used to spend hours walking alone, training and exercising the pup and it was a good distraction. It was so lovely for the kids, who could concentrate on that, and it was good for mine and Eldest's relationship, as we went on a lot of walks together. H grumbled about not being properly consulted (!) but I will say that after he moved back in, even he decided he liked the little fella.

This morning, he's bounced back and forth between trying to engage me in arguing (I can't believe you decided you had to do this on Father's Day... you couldn't have just waited one day and let me enjoy the rest of my evening with the kids (ha! ha! ha!)... you know that it is YOUR CHOICE not to be my friend, you are CHOOSING to do this, not me...in the Gottman book he says that SSM is akin to an affair so you basically had an affair for seven years and now you're treating me like this... (that last one got me started but I recovered and disengaged). Those are interspersed with trying to extra nice and jokey or then acting sad and mopey.

Ignore all of this. He's either trying to manipulate you, or he'd rather fight with you then fight with himself. He needs to fight with himself - to have a long hard think about what he wants and what kind of man he wants to be. He won't do that while he's still getting some supply of attention from you - either arguing, or affection, or even just listening to this nonsense. Let him be alone with himself so he can see the type of man he is asking you to live with.

Should I let him say this stuff to me as long as I can listen and not respond?

How is it for you to hear it? Does it use up energy you'd rather spend elsewhere? I am sure some of us are detached enough to listen to just about anything and not let it divert us from our course or have an emotional impact on us that we then have to process. Maybe you're there. Maybe you're there some days and not on others. For me, I'd want to withdraw every single drop of energy I spend on dealing with his lies and manipulations and even - more charitably - doing his emotional processing for or with him. I'm sure he regrets letting another person into the marriage. The question is, is he going to allow that regret to power him into making decisions that serve what he wants for his future, the man he wants to be? Or is he going to carry on dumping it on you? The only way to find out is to stop letting him dump it on you. I'd suggest you talk to him about nothing other than practicalities for the kids and social chit chat in front of them if you feel that would be better for them.

Another sidebar question-- he thinks that if he stays in the M, it will be out of fear and he'll become a cliche, the man who could have had happiness and didn't have the b@lls to take the step.. Whereas I feel like him leaving for a 34 year old AP is like the total stereotypical cliche. Am I wrong?

Who cares? He wants an open marriage or your blessing to leave you for his mistress. He's not getting either, and he needs to deal with that and make his next move, knowing you are gathering thoughtfulness to make your own. Nothing else matters. I do not see you as a cliche at all. Leave the theory to the therapists and the sociologists: you go and build a brilliant life.

(And the sad part is that I listened, I am seeing now. I'm a slow learner.)

I don't know if you've read my early threads May, but you are NOT a slow learner. Not as slow as I am! You are where you should be, doing what you should do, and thinks will unfold in their own time. You are in control of where you live, what conversations you listen to, how you respond, and how you express your feelings. A change in view or feelings or perspective takes a little longer - like a plant growing - and while we can put that plant in good conditions (and I see you doing that more and more) we can't force it to grow at a pace that suits us, or anyone else.

I have all the power there and he is going to be railroaded into an unhappy, passionless M where he looks in the mirror and wishes he was with AP every day for the rest of his life. Of course I don't want that either. I don't really see a path for R for us. Does that mean I have to bite the bullet and make the call myself because that is the only viable path I see in front of me right now? I don't know... again, I just need to sit with all of this for awhile again. I've come a long ways in the last week.

You DO Have all the power, May. You really do. Your H will do whatever it is he does - I suspect once he feels he's really lost your interest in this dynamic you've been playing out together, he might raise the stakes a bit - threats to fight you for the house, or really rubbing his contact with his mistress in your face, or other childish behaviours. Don't underestimate how very childish even a basically good man can be when he isn't getting what he wants from Mommy. Hold your course. Sit with all of this for exactly as long as you choose to. The right course of action is the one you choose from a position of serenity and self-respect. You've got this.

[may22]

Hi friends,

A little advice if anyone is around.

I'm not good at being fueled by anger. It is really hard to be around H when there isn't a visible "lying cheater" stamped on his forehead and he's being kind and sad and saying things that I want to hear. I wasn't able to keep up full hard as-little-as-possible last night. The dude knows me so well. He came to talk to me before dinner and was sad and sorry and doesn't know what to do. I tried to keep to the "this is your decision" and "I don't want to talk about this" but I did listen (as long as it wasn't about AP, I kept that boundary.) He asked me if I knew 100% that there was no chance he'd ever let go of AP in his heart but that he'd recommit to the M and be the best H and father he could be for the rest of his life, would that be good enough for me? I said, to live with an H for the rest of my life who isn't in love with me? No. He said, up until a couple of days ago, I was afraid your answer to that would have been yes. I said, no, I deserve to have an H that loves and respects me, and up until a couple of days ago I was holding onto the hope it was possible, that you could let her go and fall back in love with me and we could build M2.0 together. But now I've decided to believe what you say, and what you've been saying to me is that you don't think that will ever happen. So OK. He said, I don't think it is impossible. I'm just really scared it is the most likely scenario. Plus the fact that it happened between us, the fact that I did this enormous thing, that we both would need to deal with.

I didn't say that much. He made me a cocktail and then all of us a beautiful gourmet meal, all plated nicely. When I got up to do the dishes I didn't feel great and he took over and told me to go lay down. I did and slept for a couple of hours. When I woke up girls were down, kitchen was clean. I started getting ready for bed and he told me he didn't know where he was sleeping. I said it is your choice. He said OK and then got into bed. Then he went to kiss the girls and came back crying. I asked what was wrong and he said the idea that he may not get to do that every night.

He said he's seen me go through these anger stages before and that it takes me a few days to calm down and begin to think more rationally. (I bristled and he said, is rationally the wrong word?) But that he didn't want me to make any decisions out of anger. I said, I felt the same way and I hadn't taken the decision out of his hands, had I? He acknowledged but asked if we could just put this aside and if I could stop the apathy until we both had a chance to talk to our ICs. He also asked if I wanted to see our MC again. I said, I honestly didn't know. He said he was willing to, and also that he would actually like to talk to him 1-1. I said go for it.

So here's my question. I feel like I need to hold onto the "H is a lying cheater and unforgivable a-hole" in order to maintain my boundaries authentically. As soon as he is nice and I am nice back we just fall into where we were before, which makes me start to hope again that he'll choose the M. Even though I don't really think that is the best idea unless he does it differently this time. And I can't at this point even really say what that looks like. Even last night when he asked where to sleep, I felt a little panic that he would choose the office even though I had previously been happy with that idea because it would be a step on a path I think is probably inevitable and needs to be taken.

So how do I do this? Holding onto the anger is really, really hard for me, but I am also not to a point where I can swing to that middle place of detachment and not caring-- spending friendly time with him puts me back into the place of wishing and wanting him to stay and making it work. I'm purposely trying to NOT think about the children because that would send me roaring back to that other place. But being silent already is starting to feel more manipulative to me than protective. How do I process this and hold the line?

[AlisonUK]

Can you ask for space? Could you say something like,

'I want you to make a free choice that you come to without pressure from me. I want to be able to do the same. For that to happen I need space. The best way of showing you care for me and respect me is to give me the space I need and the time I need to come to my own decisions.'

I don't doubt he cares for you May, but he cares for himself more - and what he wants is for you to 'stop the apathy' because it makes him feel bad. You're not punishing him, you are facing facts, believing what he says, granting him total autonomy and looking inside. These are healthy things. You have a right to them. When he refuses to let you have that, take a long while to think about why that might be. Who does it serve?