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cardinal #2897664 06/16/20 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by cardinal
Dear may—I just want to quickly jump in to say try not to spend too much energy on regretting that R talk. I really doubt it pushed H in this direction. It seems like he was already halfway there and just not being honest with himself or you. And I know you know this, but if a little realness from you could push him right back into the arms of AP (who, yes, sounds like a total fantasy, kind of like how puppies are cute but turn out to be a ton of work), well, he is so not worthy of you right now.

Maybe my H and your H can get a place together, if they ever leave, start up that Real World MLC. Maybe too soon for that joke—if so, sorry! I just empathize so much with your frustration that your H is declaring it’s his house too, and with your conviction that you will not leave.

C-- they can TOTALLY get a place together. if only!!! WHY oh WHY can't they just go??

Thank you for saying that about the R talk. I am getting over it. I did it because that is what I felt I needed at the time. In hindsight maybe not the best move but it is what it is, and you're right, if THAT pushed him over the edge, he was too close anyway.

Alison-- I cracked up. Thank you for that. Tonight he was like, we don't have to go on vacations together or anything. But how do you logically make sense of NOT letting me be with the children together as much as possible given the stats on Ded children? I said, I really don't want to talk about this. OMG OMG OMG. Like this is in any remote way my doing that they would have to go through this.

On boundaries... I hope they post this to the quotes board. This really helped me clarify. thank you so, so much. It also has helped me to recognize that H and I have few if any real boundaries, because I can totally relate to the boundaries with friends/acquaintances but not at all with boundaries for my H. Maybe this is partially why H has such a hard time accepting my boundaries as such, because we've never really had them before.

I know my H feels like my boundaries are threats, mostly because he views me as an obstacle to getting all the cake he can stuff in his mouth. He can't SEE me, I think. He feels guilt about hurting me, but I just don't know how much of that is truly feeling badly about hurting someone he loves and how much of it is just feeling bad, he doesn't want to stop what he's doing, so please stop making me feel guilty by being happy, please. I think I also need to avoid any R talks where I might tear up as apparently my tears are Kryponite for him (or so he said) and if I cry he just reverses direction and can't follow through. I feel like I'm trying to monitor all my external responses and words constantly to avoid saying anything that could remotely be construed as controlling and trying to keep him here. I feel like I've made my position crystal clear at this point. More talking won't change my mind. His choice to make. I'll work on establishing and protecting my boundaries no matter what.

Pommy... well, glad you hadn't taken my advice about the logical reasoning! I actually thought it was possible for his logic to win out. It is 100% who he is as a person... but I also think now, after listening to him the last few days, he just tries to package the emotion into pseudo-logical arguments as well so that they feel right to him. Maybe the gut/emotional response is the more important one... I don't know. I do know that I try to avoid making any decisions out of fear, and I think that is important for anyone, LBS or WS or whoever. That was more what I was thinking in my head, at least, when I commented on your sitch... a worry that acting out of fear, once that fear was abated, would make him lose steam. Like the pursuer-distancer dynamic that seems so strong in your sitch. I don't know... I'm clearly not the one to be giving any advice. how are YOU doing though??

I think in his head he would MO (ideally down the street... he walked down to look at an open house yesterday but it was pretty crappy apparently) when AP moved here and no longer live in the basement. Way back when, maybe January-ish, when we were here last time, he was talking about the month-long family trip he wanted to take this summer with all four of us, even if we were split up. I said, what would AP think of that? He said, she wouldn't like it, but it would be non-negotiable. I just rolled my eyes. Apparently it has been really hard for her every time we've gone on a family vacation. All this blows my mind, btw. Who are these APs? It is truly kind of sad. My guess is that she's told him exactly what he wants to hear, she would never come between him and the mother of his children, etc. I did say she wouldn't be welcome in my house. He looked pained. Like I'm being petty.

Yes, I think what you describe about your H is exactly where my H is and has been for a long time. He has described it in really similar ways, though not a missing puzzle piece-- that piece exists and is AP. And BTW he feels like I purposely pulled that piece out and threw it away, so vvv angry that now I am waving that piece around and saying I found it! Too little, too late... I guess that is fair and what I'm trying to sit with now.

He has been so incredibly nice and solicitous today. Took care of the children, made them breakfast and lunch, made me a steak salad for lunch and brought it down to me in the basement where I was working, made me a cocktail, made dinner, cleaned up for all the meals. I barely said anything to him all day, though we did talk a bit after the kids went to bed, but not about R stuff. Guilt or compassion? I'm leaning towards guilt. I almost wish he'd do the lashing out blame game kind of guilt as it would be easier for me at this point. He put his wedding ring back on again too. He is just all over the place.

xx thanks you guys. so glad you are here.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2897672 06/16/20 11:03 AM
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Quote
I know my H feels like my boundaries are threats, mostly because he views me as an obstacle to getting all the cake he can stuff in his mouth. He can't SEE me, I think. He feels guilt about hurting me, but I just don't know how much of that is truly feeling badly about hurting someone he loves and how much of it is just feeling bad, he doesn't want to stop what he's doing, so please stop making me feel guilty by being happy, please. I think I also need to avoid any R talks where I might tear up as apparently my tears are Kryponite for him (or so he said) and if I cry he just reverses direction and can't follow through. I feel like I'm trying to monitor all my external responses and words constantly to avoid saying anything that could remotely be construed as controlling and trying to keep him here. I feel like I've made my position crystal clear at this point. More talking won't change my mind. His choice to make. I'll work on establishing and protecting my boundaries no matter what.


I think I can help you here.

Boundaries start with knowing really clearly what your responsibility is, and what is none of your business and not your responsibility to care for, control or deal with.

You are responsible for taking care of yourself - for making sure you are in safe and respectful relationships, that your behaviour and words adhere to your values, that your sexual conduct is in line with your values and that you are having relationships that suit who you want to be. You're also responsible for the consequences of your own actions, beliefs, behaviours and words. You are responsible for discovering what you want and making it happen, or doing the work of accepting that it can't or won't happen at all, or right now.

You aren't responsible for achieving that for other people, helping them escape from the consequences of their actions, making sure the consequences for their actions are palatable to them, helping them understand or make decisions, protecting them from the opinions of others or their own emotions, helping them to make progress on understanding things, nursing them through their feelings about your boundaries etc etc. You also aren't responsible for making sure they have opinions about you and your boundaries that you approve of.

I think you're probably taking care of all your business, and also perhaps attempting to take care of your H's business as well. Because he wants you to. And I think if you stop doing it, things are going to get better for you and worse for him, and who knows what he will do with that. But that isn't yours to control.

People who want to dump their business onto you hate boundaries and it does feel like control to them. So what.

Last edited by AlisonUK; 06/16/20 11:05 AM.
may22 #2897673 06/16/20 12:29 PM
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^^^ This ^^

Thank you Alison. We could all take something away from that and apply it to our sitch's.

Originally Posted by may22
I know my H feels like my boundaries are threats, mostly because he views me as an obstacle to getting all the cake he can stuff in his mouth. He can't SEE me, I think. He feels guilt about hurting me, but I just don't know how much of that is truly feeling badly about hurting someone he loves and how much of it is just feeling bad, he doesn't want to stop what he's doing, so please stop making me feel guilty by being happy, please.


I'm glad you can see this. His need to want you to be OK with everything is really about admonishing him of his guilt. It's kind of like being absolved through confession. And I think this is partly because of the way you are. I can't remember when the affair came to light, but I bet, after the initial shock you listened intently and you were warm, understanding and compassionate. He learned after that first time he could go to you when he was feeling bad and your words would make the guilt go away. To him you are not a person with feelings and needs. May, you are his priest and his therapist all rolled into one.


W40 (me), H40
M14, Together 16
D12, D9

BD Oct 17
Moved out Mar 18

may22 #2897675 06/16/20 12:51 PM
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It's really really difficult to get this right. I know I wasn't at all sympathetic and understanding about my H's EA (which is nowhere near as serious or long-lasting or deep seated as your H's behaviour, May - I do acknowledge that). Instead, I punished him like crazy and used his guilt to get the closeness and affection I wanted to the point where the man must have felt like some kind of vending machine - every time I felt bad I went to him and demanded a dose of contrition and comforting.

There's a middle way and I had to find it from the other direction. But it did involve refusing to buy his stories about what he did and why he did it and whose responsibility it was, and refusing to dump the work of recovering onto him.

AlisonUK #2897679 06/16/20 02:08 PM
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Hey my sweet May,
I brought your comment back to your thread because I think it's important to answer here. And I just kind of want to talk about why what I'm doing is functioning in my sitch. I won't say working because who really knows with this stuff until you're piecing or full on reconciling. i

Originally Posted by may22
I just wanted to pipe in and say I've been thinking of you, and wondering if I had taken a more WF approach if I'd be where I am right now-- kept my expectations at a minimum, avoided all R talks... so just want to give you a shout-out for staying the course. I know earlier I was asking you why you didn't want to open up those questions and now in my own sitch I wish I had been more patient. Maybe we would still be in the same place we are now in a month or whatever-- maybe my H was never going to let go of AP in his head-- but I have been wishing I could have channeled more WF in the last few weeks.


Pushing your H for answers wasn't really pushing in the way you see it. The door was already opened in DC. The door was already opened by him wanting to have conversations about you guys. I have no open doors. And when the doors were opened by my H all that spilled out of his mouth was full on delusion. And some things I let him have because that's what he felt. And maybe in his head that's what it felt like was actually happening. Other things, things I could point to social media or other people or our kids and say, "Look see what you're saying makes no d@mn sense. Keep lying to yourself about who I am and what we were if it makes you feel better. At least when you leave everyone else will know what the reality was. I said over and over and over again I would own 60% of our problems prior to the affair. But the affair plus that other 40% puts H well over the 100 percentile and I'm not taking ownership of his sh***y choices. I never initiate R talks. That much is true. But all the R convos he forced me into in Jan, Feb and early Mar I was absolutely not DBing. That's a huge part of why I don't ever bring it up. I'm still working very very hard on learning to listen and keep my mouth shut. I get incredibly defensive and I have a really bad temper, a long, long, long fuse, but once I'm there, it's bad news for everyone especially H. And then subsequently me because I'm also anxious and I play the blow up over and over and over again wishing I would've had more self control. You were incredibly controlled in your conversations. You had a direction and you tried not to drag these conversations out for ages. Having these conversations or not wouldn't have changed a thing because I as said from the beginning it's very weird he won't cut her out of his life if this is what he really wanted. Because it wasn't what he really wanted. What he really wanted was a lease with the option to buy for both of you. Maybe now's the time to propose an open marriage. LOL. I kid. But I think every LBS should ask just to see what would happen. I think we all would have a better handle on who our spouses really are. I'm getting off topic now.

The other thing I wanted to say is I have the luxury of an H who was dumped. And dumped hard. So keeping my mouth shut is a lot easier. I've gotten a front row seat to him grieving this relationship and watching him let her go. He's thrown out all the trinkets I was aware of on his own. I never had to ask. They haven't spoken since 3 days after the break up. By his admission. And if I really wanted to I could probably confirm with phone records and he knows that. Also H was very much slapped in the face with reality by OW dumping him. She pretty much told him he built the whole relationship up in his head. And she was never going to spend the rest of her life being known as a homewercker and he was a fool to believe that there was a happily ever after here for them. That what they had was never meant to last. He took the stance that she allowed him to blow up his entire life for her thinking there was really something there and that him back peddling into his life is not nor ever will be as simple as it was for her because I knew everything. And her BF knew nothing. I say all this because your H lives in imaginary land where even thought OW lives thousands of miles away somehow this is all going to work out "if they just get the chance." Ignoring the fact that she would have to move near in order for there to be any real relationship. Or he'd have to abandon his children. Honestly given what I know there is no other way to let them figure this stuff out except for letting them go. I would never ever ever recommend anyone doing what I did. H chose to eff up our lives over the holidays. He chose to do this while I was in the care and keeping of child who isn't biologically mine full time. He was falling apart at the seams before the A even started. What I signed on for with what I did was literally to buy myself time for the purposed of being able to afford to live without him, and so that I knew D16 had a safe and stable place to be. And the fact is your H can't even play out his little fantasy here unless they can be in the same space. So what's his plan for that? Is OW moving in to your basement too?

May I don't want any one to think they'd be further along here if they were more like me. I had to swallow a lot of pride and tears and anti-depressants to keep things as normal as possible for my kids. Now my patience paid off in part. But H is still on the fence here. And I had to sacrifice a lot for a fence sitter. It's not a great feeling.

You will choose the best path for you and the kids. I know it. With or without H your life is going to be full and blessed and those kids are going to be just fine.

may22 #2897697 06/16/20 06:31 PM
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May, I am not going to be able to give any better advice than anyone who has posted before me. You are in such good hands here, so supported and so loved by us all. Protect that sweet heart of yours, that is the most important thing.

Is there any way that you could escape for a night or two? Get some thinking and processing time away from H and the kids? Some of my best thinking has been done when I was alone during our S. It allowed me to get out of ‘reactivity mode/fight or flight and into a space where my heart and inner intuition could have a louder voice. You really haven’t had that during the past few months and could probably use it now.

I just posted an update on my sitch and H wants to come back and work on us. I am sharing this as I read so many similarities between our H’s (the whole ‘we will make this decision TOGETHER’ s***’ is particular resonant), I wanted to share what I think may have shifted things for us. When we had the big D conversation last week and he truly, deeply understood that I was serious about taking the next step, and what that would mean for all of us personally, professionally and financially, it seemed to snap him out of fantasy land. That there would be no caking eating for either one of us and that the impact on all of us would be so so huge. I was calm and informed during our discussion, it wasn’t emotional for me, simply practical. I am not 100 percent sure, but I feel that the conversation popped his fantasy bubble once and for all.

I know you had a turnaround in your sitch when you started researching D in Jan, so maybe this is the next step for you. Only you can know what you need to do for you and your circumstance, but H’s indecision and cake eating has to end for your own sanity. Right now your H is in fantasy land and you can’t live with him there any longer. If he was sure of what he needs to do, he would have left already. Maybe it will take you leaving (emotionally at the very least) for him find his truest answer. And in ‘leaving’, whatever that looks like for you, at the very least you are protecting yourself.

Lots of love and support May. Xoxoxo

may22 #2897709 06/16/20 10:11 PM
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Thanks, guys.

I'm feeling really sad today. Working on myself and my self-control right now to stay strong. I had been feeling more accepting of what was happening, that I can't be M to an H who is in love with someone else, and working on being OK with a future on my own. Now I'm backsliding into fear, fear for my kids, fear of the financial implications, fear of the unknown. Anger at needing to let go of my consulting dream. I so badly want him to choose to stay again now, even though I also at the same time don't think he is in a place to really commit to our M and let her go. I'm just so disappointed and angry and sad.

FlySolo, I don't know that our dynamic in R talks has been me being warm and compassionate and forgiving. I think I have been about things that have happened in the past, but not around current tense or future. To me, intentionality is just so important-- it is much less about where you have been as where you intend to go and how you intend to do it.

When he talks about AP or his feelings, it totally freezes me, I get cold and angry. (WF, I think I am much more like you than you think... I do have a long fuse but once it is lit I have a hard time getting out of it.) I can listen and be forgiving about why he was in the place he was and my own actions that contributed to that. But pretty much every time he delves into how he feels about her or how it made him feel, I can't go there with him. I can't even discuss the possibility of his fantasy D... he'll say it and I can't even validate it. So I don't think talking to me relieves his guilt right now.

I think he WANTS me to relieve his guilt but I don't think that is happening right now or has happened in the past around the potential future of him leaving me. I do know he feels some level of relief on the deception part from telling me, that is a big thing for him. Maybe I am forgiving of things that have happened in the past and that can relieve his guilt somewhat. But in terms of things that are happening now or in the future-- his feelings for AP, the possibility he'll walk out the door and we have to tell the children-- I don't think his guilt is relieved by speaking with me, really. He just is desperately trying to get me to say something that will make this all OK.

He wants me to explore with him how those scenarios might look, where we are S or D but the kids are great and he lives with AP (not in the basement but somewhere else and is with her). I really don't want to do this. He feels like I am being rigid, that for me there are only two outcomes (we stay together and work on our R or we S and are not friends) and he wants to explore what other possibilities are along the spectrum. (Wayfarer.... his DREAM is an open marriage where he can have both of us. I'm not willing to be in that position.) As I type this maybe this is a boundary for me... I won't engage in discussing those other possibilities. I need to focus on protecting myself and talking about those outcomes are damaging for me. I guess that is part of my original boundary-- I am willing to work on our R, no matter where that might take us-- M2.0 or a friendly D-- but not with a third party in the picture. He is frustrated with this because he sees no reason to S if he isn't with AP, that because giving her up is a prerequisite to me working with him on our R, if he chooses to work on our relationship in whatever direction it takes us, he has to give up on the idea of a future with AP. And again as I type this, Alison, I see how engaging in these conversations is absolutely trying to help him work through his own $hit. Boundaries. This is really helpful.

Sage, I'm really happy for you-- I read your update. There is an enormous difference with what your H is saying about why he's choosing to stay (similar to Pommy right now too I think) vs why my H chose to stay before. I think that is really positive. I think you're right that I need to emotionally distance myself now, mostly for my own emotional safety but also because as you said that was the time he freaked out before and was a definite turning point. One big difference is that my H is not asking to D, doesn't want to separate finances-- he will do both if I force it, but he says he wants to always continue to support and take care of me, wants to keep mowing the lawn and taking care of the house and all the rest. Sound familiar, Pommy? smile (BTW this makes me soooo angry. Like I'm going to be open to those scraps once he walks.)

His narrative right now is that he tried to get her out of his head and he couldn't, so now he needs to go try an R with her and see how that goes, but he is unwilling to do that without my blessing and buy-in and forgiveness. Also, the R with her would be long-distance for probably a decent amount of time while he lives in the basement, and he doesn't want to MO until she actually moved out here. To me that is untenable-- basically continued cake-eating, and he won't be able to actually test out a real R with her for a pretty significant amount of time during which it would be incredibly painful for me. He doesn't want to separate finances or actually D or anything. He wants to stay friends. When I say none of that will happen, he says that is my choice and he can't stop me but can we please talk about it more, what about the damage it is doing to the kids, etc. (Again. Like I am responsible for this.)

How do I manage this? Just stop engaging in those conversations? Start really planning for what I need to do next assuming he gets the courage to walk out the door without my explicit blessing and promise we'll stay friends? I need help, guys. This is really hard right now.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2897711 06/16/20 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by May
How do I manage this? Just stop engaging in those conversations? Start really planning for what I need to do next assuming he gets the courage to walk out the door without my explicit blessing and promise we'll stay friends? I need help, guys. This is really hard right now.

Hi May,

((Hugs)) Since you're not willing to be in an open marriage with him, yes I'd stop having conversations about it, and yes I'd start moving a.s.a.p. towards the exit. Make him confront reality NOW of losing the benefits of a full-time family life with a partner who stood by him through so much, for a long-distance fantasy EA where their goals are different. He may give it up. He may dive head-first into it *now* when the timing is off, instead of 6-12 months from now when the timing is perfect. It ends the limbo for you. It lets you move forward sooner either way. My thoughts from the outside looking in with no skin in the game. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I wish he saw clearly what the up-to-now luck man is about to lose.

may22 #2897712 06/16/20 10:57 PM
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Please stop engaging, May. It’s time to put your foot down and stop this madness.

Looking from the outside, and I’m not sure if you see this too, every conversation seems incredibly manipulative on your H’s part. It’s not fair to unload his bad feelings onto you. Him asking you to make this decision together is bullsh*t. It’s a way to absolve himself of the guilt and responsibility for creating this situation. Him asking for your blessing and forgiveness is f*cking crazy-making and nowhere near the realm of normality. It’s wrong. It’s emotional abuse.

I know you’ve read chump lady in the past, so google “Dear Chump Lady, My cheating husband won’t move out”. Your sitch is not as extreme, but the advice might still apply.

If it were me in your place, I would start pulling out canned responses to his ridiculous requests.

“I don’t want this. The children and I will not facilitate your affair. You are free to leave at any time. I will make my own decisions accordingly. I don’t need your permission or agreement. The children will adapt to the situation.”

You CAN make unilateral decisions for your future, May. You aren’t in a marriage right now. There is no marriage any more and that’s not your fault. It takes two people to get married and only one to divorce. You don’t need his buy-in. I know you’re afraid. The thought of losing time with your kids and sharing her with another woman - it goes against every maternal instinct in our bodies. All I can say is that it does get easier with time.

Honestly, and I’m not pro-divorce AT ALL, I don’t see a way out for you other than taking the reins of divorce. Stop talking about consequences and start implementing them. This has gone on long enough and you won’t stand for the disrespect any longer. You desperately need some distance from this situation to see the emotional abuse for what it is. You’re allowed to be angry and you’re allowed to display your anger. Use it to fuel the implementation of your boundaries.

Look at the facts here. Your H has been having an affair for three years. He wants to date this woman while living in your family home. He wants to have sex with this woman then come home for family breakfast. Imagine your daughter was in this situation. What would you tell her to do based on these three facts? Take the emotion and self-blame and sunk costs and fear of the future out of it. You know this is wrong. What will these three facts teach your daughters about love and respect?

I am sorry if this is harsh but I’m just so angry on your behalf.


chumplady.com
may22 #2897716 06/16/20 11:33 PM
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^^^^ this (Scout)

ESPECIALLY the first paragraph. WTF does he think your blessing would do? Make him feel better? What about your feelings, and how objectively insane his entire fantasy is?

I think it's OK to give yourself time to grieve about things that are gone or possibilities that appear gone right now. I think Scout's advice is dead on re: canned responses and stop engaging. He probably continues to bring it up to get your almighty blessing for his idiocy, and is only thinking about his feelings under the veiled excuse that it needs to be joint. He didn't make all the decisions up until now as joint decisions, so why now?

Continue to focus on enforcing your boundaries. You are a strong amazing lady. Hugs to you

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