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may22 #2898245 06/23/20 06:40 PM
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may ~ I completely empathize with how hard it is to feel like you have the choice to either be super-angry (on behalf of the impact to the children), or fall back into old patterns.

I am sorry if this comes across as harsh. Hard advice helped me a lot in the last year, especially with getting in touch with what I would call "calm anger."

You aren't going to friend him back. He thinks he knows you. He will keep mashing the same buttons until the response changes. He knows he can hit the SSM button and the controlling button and the "I don't want to break up the family" button and they will work. He knows he can come to you for his conflicted feelings.

No MC until he's committed to the MR.

Frankly I think your H is manipulative and until you detach further it's going to be hard for you to avoid falling into these patterns.

may22 #2898251 06/23/20 08:37 PM
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May, I feel almost physically sick with empathy and a shared experience with what you are going through right now. My circumstance may have slightly different motivations. I am not sure that H is leaving me for another person, but he is checked out of our M for either that or his own personal demons. But the resulting whiplash and back-and-forth is exactly the same as you are experiencing.

My H too has always demanded that we make a joint decision. And that we do what HE thinks is best for the kids (amicable, joint decision-making, owning the blame equally). His greatest fury with me has always been when I wouldn't own that. And I too have always said I wouldn't be the one to instigate D, that it would be giving him the option to paint ME as the bad guy and that fundamentally, I don't believe we should or need to D. That our R has so much good in it that we should give it our best shot, if nothing else for the kids' sake.

Well, that was the old me. The me that was in your same situation. Over the past few weeks, I have come to the conclusion that D was better than limbo, that actually I deserve to be happy with someone who is truly in love with me and WANTS to be with me. Just for who I am, not for some other version of myself. I came to peace with the thought of instigating a D, that it wouldn't change the narrative of what really happened (H checked out of the M, for whatever EA/OW or own personal demon issues). That the kids deserved to watch their mother love herself and be loved fully by a potential future person. I was resolute and calm with this knowledge, although it took me a long time to get there.

And then he came swinging wildly back on hands and knees in a Hollywood-style reconciliation attempt. Which lasted a total of maybe four days before I was back to being accused of being a demanding, controlling, crazy W for simply asking for a basic R need (faithfulness).

So now I am back to square one emotionally, where I have to build back up that calm, accepting person I was a week ago, who wasn't afraid of D and actually welcomed the thought of being relieved of the stress and pressure of our current R and H's wild, impulsive decision-making.

I am not trying to hijack your thread with my own story, but wanted to share that your feelings surrounding D may change overnight. And it also may take a while to get there; there was a LOT of strong, pendulum-swinging vacillation on my part for quite a while. But the relief I felt when I came to that conclusion was cellular. When you get there, you will KNOW. I hope to be back there again myself sooner than later.

Also, I empathize with your dueling versions of your H: someone who is fundamentally flawed with no hope of recovery in time for your M and the H that made a mistake and is lost, but could find himself again and is worthy of redemption. I am an optimist who believes in love and happiness and happy endings. So I tend to skew to the latter, which is probably making my own situation worse for myself. I can't just believe H when he shows me who he really is. I'm on this journey with you on this one.

You have been given such great advice and I am so grateful you are able to post as much of your story as you have because I am able to live vicariously through your journey and am learning so much about my own.

Huge hugs, S

may22 #2898252 06/23/20 08:39 PM
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He uses the children and this notion of an intact “family” to control you; hold you in limbo via guilt. He knows it’s a sensitive issue of yours and he is manipulating it to the point of extreme emotional abuse. Like YOU are tearing apart the family by not allowing him to live a double life in the basement? Surrrrre.

HE lost the privilege of a family when he threw it in the trash and carried on a 3 year long affair that is still ongoing.
Family is valuable and to be cherished, not exploited to cake eat. Is he acting like a man who has learned this life lesson?

As for some inner work for you, why is it “keeping the family in tact” when it’s all a big lie and he lives having an affair in the same house? Do you value a mere presence more than the real thing? Did your FOO keep up appearances?
It’s not your job to fix his self detonation. Maybe something to discuss in IC.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
HaWho #2898274 06/24/20 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Can you ask for space? Could you say something like,

'I want you to make a free choice that you come to without pressure from me. I want to be able to do the same. For that to happen I need space. The best way of showing you care for me and respect me is to give me the space I need and the time I need to come to my own decisions.'

I don't doubt he cares for you May, but he cares for himself more - and what he wants is for you to 'stop the apathy' because it makes him feel bad. You're not punishing him, you are facing facts, believing what he says, granting him total autonomy and looking inside. These are healthy things. You have a right to them. When he refuses to let you have that, take a long while to think about why that might be. Who does it serve?

I *can* say this, Alison. Thank you for giving those words to me. I can say them and I believe he will respect them (sort of- at least he'd have to give them lip service and would back off if reminded). He wanted to talk to me this afternoon about the trip that we are having to cancel, says he knows I hate him right now but he needed to bounce an email off of me. I listened. He said talking about these trips and thinking about not doing them makes him want to run back into my arms, even though my arms are crossed in hatred to him right now. (I said they are not crossed in hatred but nothing else.) He said he didn't think that was a good enough reason, was it? Or was it a good reason? I said, you need to figure this out for yourself. He dropped it.

Then he said he has a lot to think about and process (he has an IC appointment this afternoon). He thanked me for being honest with him over the last few days and feels like I've given him more information about what each option (staying or leaving) would really look like, and that will be helpful in making his decision. I didn't say anything. He said he knows I didn't think he tried for the past 4 months because he didn't do it my way (total NC) but he he feels he *did* try and he knows how weak he was. And the fact that he couldn't do it, resist reaching back out to her, is also information for him, that he won't be able to do it if he tries again. I said (bad May, I know I shouldn't have said this) maybe you should talk to (MC). He said yes, I really want to do that, I'll schedule something today. (I had a whole load of things I WANTED to say but kept it buttoned other than that, so I give myself some props for at least partial restraint.) But overall that was my worst fail in this conversation, except maybe it would have been better to physically remove myself from the conversation and walk out. I left it at I'm needing to figure out what is best for me in this situation, and he said OK and left me alone. Now I'm kind of hiding in the office with the door closed so that I don't have to see him again before his IC appointment.

In any case... I think I could say this word-for-word and get the space I need. And his inability to let me manage my own process on my own-- or to manage his own process by himself-- is clearly benefiting him, not me. He is finally acknowledging to me that he is being selfish and has been selfish, too (though he wanted to me acknowledge that while he's been selfish this entire time, it hasn't been vindictive with an intent to hurt me. I said that didn't really matter so much, but OK. I can acknowledge it isn't vindictiveness.)

Originally Posted by unchien
You aren't going to friend him back. He thinks he knows you. He will keep mashing the same buttons until the response changes. He knows he can hit the SSM button and the controlling button and the "I don't want to break up the family" button and they will work. He knows he can come to you for his conflicted feelings.

No MC until he's committed to the MR.

Frankly I think your H is manipulative and until you detach further it's going to be hard for you to avoid falling into these patterns.

U-- thank you also. This helps. I know you're right. He is being manipulative whether he is trying to actively manipulate the situation or just can because he knows me so well and needs me to engage for whatever his own reasons may be. I feel like my step away internally did somewhat start to destabilize Plan B, as Steve would say, for him and he's doing all he can to firm that back up and get the responses he wants from me so he can feel more secure in the power seat. I just need to keep my energy focused on myself and continue to hold to what is best for me. It is just hard to not let myself start to have hope again.

Originally Posted by HaWho
He uses the children and this notion of an intact “family” to control you; hold you in limbo via guilt. He knows it’s a sensitive issue of yours and he is manipulating it to the point of extreme emotional abuse. Like YOU are tearing apart the family by not allowing him to live a double life in the basement? Surrrrre.

HE lost the privilege of a family when he threw it in the trash and carried on a 3 year long affair that is still ongoing.
Family is valuable and to be cherished, not exploited to cake eat. Is he acting like a man who has learned this life lesson?

As for some inner work for you, why is it “keeping the family in tact” when it’s all a big lie and he lives having an affair in the same house? Do you value a mere presence more than the real thing? Did your FOO keep up appearances?
It’s not your job to fix his self detonation. Maybe something to discuss in IC.

HaWho, I need to keep repeating this-- I'm not the one making these choices, he already did, and I don't need to convince him of why I'm justified in not wanting to be his friend for the sake of the girls. That is my own decision and I don't owe him anything. Going forward I'm making all my decisions in the best interests of my children and myself. Not him. And no, he is not acting like a man who has learned his life lesson. (Honestly I don't even know what that looks like. Or if he is capable of it.)

And yes, I have always been taught to put a smile on my face and make the best of things. I did not air dirty laundry. My FOO was actually very happy and strong, but my mom totally was the boss and my dad was and is pretty easygoing. H's family was kind of the opposite and I think this is part of our problem. Also, I have never, ever considered D to be an option-- I always believed that M was for life. Growing up, none of my friends' parents were Ded, only one member of my extended family (which was awful to watch), my parents had one couple friend from college who got Ded and they always talked about how terrible it was for their son. And H was actually in much the same position. So this is all just taking me a lot to acknowledge that D can be a real choice for me. I don't value a mere presence more than the real thing, for sure... and the past four months have taught me that as I got more and more worried that I was settling if he wasn't ever going to address the A. I guess I've been holding onto hope that the real thing was still possible, that it was worth it to TRY.

Sage... I have so much to say to you! Sending giant hugs. So much of what you say resonates 100% with me-- the things your H has said, your fundamental optimism, the worth-it-to-give-it-our-best-shot. Ugh. Who needs these men anyway. I'll post more on your thread but I'm so with you on this.

For me, though, I really did feel like I basically got to this point back in January/February, being OK with a D and being able to realize it was all out of my control. I do think that was part of H's decision back then too, I felt that swinging pursuer-distancer dynamic then and I feel it again right now. I think last time, though, I never fully believed him when he was saying how he felt about AP, his worries that he could never love me like that again-- I felt like OK, I get it, of course you don't have those feelings for me because another person is in the way. Once you let her go we can build M2.0, we have all the ingredients for an incredible M, way better than before. We just have to do the work.

Now... I'm feeling less optimism. Believing what he is telling me is true is much more devastating- that he truly is in love with another woman- than being able to dismiss it as fantasy. It still may be fantasy, but it isn't to him, and he let me down as his W in an enormous and maybe irreparable way. And I can't control him or make him want to want M2.0 with me. I can only control me. So planning on how I will be OK no matter what is the work I need to do now... just hard and I'm trying soooooo hard not to let myself get distracted by his manipulations, as nice-feeling as it would be to give into them.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2898282 06/24/20 02:12 AM
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May--

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just hard and I'm trying soooooo hard not to let myself get distracted by his manipulations, as nice-feeling as it would be to give into them.


I know this all too well myself, I fell for that - I just wanted that nice-feeling, just for a little bit - BUT it really set me back. He distanced himself and it wasnt worth it.

Its so hard to have them in the house, will the full arsenal that they have in that they know us so well - and use that against us and manipulate us. Its so hard! I know!

Strength to you May~
Blue


M:50 H:49
D:16 S:13
M:23 T:25
BD: Feb 25th 2020
EA/PA: Dec 2019 - June 11, 2020
Behind every broken woman is a broken man...
may22 #2898285 06/24/20 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by may22
He is being manipulative whether he is trying to actively manipulate the situation or just can because he knows me so well and needs me to engage for whatever his own reasons may be. I feel like my step away internally did somewhat start to destabilize Plan B, as Steve would say, for him and he's doing all he can to firm that back up and get the responses he wants from me so he can feel more secure in the power seat. I just need to keep my energy focused on myself and continue to hold to what is best for me. It is just hard to not let myself start to have hope again.


For much of our lives, having hope, and seeing the best in people is such a gift. It is a sign of resiliency and the antithesis of victimhood. Which is why in these sorts of circumstances we are in a double bind: hope could bring us to a conclusion that we want; and could also prevent us from reaching our true potential (if we cling too hard). I am struggling with this concept of hope right now too. How not to have hope in this tiny sliver of my life, but maintain it in every other aspect. Also, maybe I need to redefine hope to include a post-D world. It would be so awfully amazing to leap over this pile of hardship and just be living in a better outcome, no matter what it may be. But then I suppose the personal growth that comes from this hardship would be missing. Ugh, existential reflection here, sorry.

Originally Posted by may22
Now... I'm feeling less optimism. Believing what he is telling me is true is much more devastating- that he truly is in love with another woman- than being able to dismiss it as fantasy. It still may be fantasy, but it isn't to him, and he let me down as his W in an enormous and maybe irreparable way. And I can't control him or make him want to want M2.0 with me. I can only control me. So planning on how I will be OK no matter what is the work I need to do now... just hard and I'm trying soooooo hard not to let myself get distracted by his manipulations, as nice-feeling as it would be to give into them.


I keep going over BlueWave's posts in my head as I read your updates and live mine. How it seemed she struggled more with the piecing than the actual affair period. Which may not be completely true, but has me thinking about what all this looks like IF things were to get to actual piecing. Could you ever forgive or un-hear those words that H is saying to you right now? I have a long list of grievances, nasty words, assaults on my personality and belittling of my extended family (whom he loves) that came flashing before my eyes when H came back begging last week. My sister even said to me 'I will support you and him no matter what, but I will never forget some of those things he said to you, and nor should you. You can forgive him, but don't forget that this person was capable of saying those things to someone he should hold as precious to him.' Which came up in BlueWave's sitch. The years she spent trying to forgive, knowing she would never forget, and what that meant for her personally and her R.

Fresh on my mind is all of this. If I were to fast-forward to a couple of years from now, what regrets would I have? And what can I do to prevent as many of them as I can at the moment? Not in a way that means I am predicting my future self, but more in a way that allows me to make the best decisions in this moment. Shoot, I even have regrets from not maintaining certain boundaries last week. Maybe this is all poor advice, and the best bet is to live in the moment (I need to meditate more, clearly). But in the vein of 'believe what he is telling you', how much and how often and how loudly do they need to tell us something for it to finally click?

Maybe this is our Hs' truth right now, not forever, but I think the sooner we accept what they are saying, right now, the sooner we can find some path out of this mess. Which goes against 'believe nothing they say', but from a self-preservation standpoint, acceptance of their words might bring about more rapid shifts in our ability to detach.

Lots of musing here. I'm with you, sister.
xx

may22 #2898327 06/24/20 02:39 PM
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I listened. He said talking about these trips and thinking about not doing them makes him want to run back into my arms, even though my arms are crossed in hatred to him right now. (I said they are not crossed in hatred but nothing else.) He said he didn't think that was a good enough reason, was it? Or was it a good reason? I said, you need to figure this out for yourself. He dropped it.


Ugh. You responded perfectly here, and this is text-book nice guy manipulation, where he's putting himself our there as vulnerable in need of help, wanting to give affection, and you as the cold, angry woman full of hatred. And then he wants you to endorse how good his reasons are for coming back - basically asking you to accept this nonsense.

May - I know you don't want to run on anger. And I get that. And I think you don't need to be angry to have boundaries. But do see this for what it is - game-playing by a desperate man that is treating you like his Mommy. Constant temperature checking and these really manipulative games where you either have to be affectionate and nice to him - or at least, 'not apathetic' (because he doesn't like it) or defend yourself against accusations that you are hateful.

If you can't just ignore this silliness from him, then I suggest the phrase 'you could be right,' which confirms or denies nothing, puts all the speculation and game playing and nonsense back onto his lap, and lets you get out of the conversation without having to justify, argue, defend or blame.

may22 #2898378 06/24/20 08:16 PM
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Blue-- strength right back at you, sister. If you are still holding out for reconciliation and want to see your H as a flawed human capable of change, I would say it helps to really understand that he's in a lot of pain and confusion right now too. he doesn't know how to handle it and he is dumping it on the closest person (you). That doesn't mean you should accept it-- walk away-- but it also might help you to understand that he is simply in no position to be helping you at this point. Don't let him push your buttons-- positive or negative. Just be YOU.

Now I'm in a place where continuing to hold onto the vision of my H as a flawed human being who is fundamentally a good person and capable of change is no longer serving me. The problem is I also don't believe that he is a unrepentant a-hole, as attractive as that vision is... I just can't hold onto it in the current situation with us still living together. He is still just desperately clinging onto this fantasy and can't let it go. Scared of loss in both directions. Able to envision a perfect life with everything he loves in it, including me, AP, and the children. Not able to envision what our M2.0 might look like or happiness without AP in the picture. And all that is outside of my control. I just need to keep remembering that. As so many of you have said... the motivations for his behavior are not that important. His behavior is manipulative and selfish, and nothing I can say or do will change him. He has to want to change himself. He has to want the M--the whole package. And he doesn't.

Alison, "maybe you're right" will work. (How do you have all these phrases at the ready? You are a genius.) I am trying so hard to not get pulled back in to this. The "mommy" thing makes a lot of sense. I will say, it was not with any heat or accusation that he said I hate him now. More like resignation. Which is of course actually so much more effective than being a jerk with me, so only just shows he knows my buttons really well and is able to control himself enough to not get angry. Pommy, if you're reading, I also got multiple comments on a new pair of yoga pants I bought. When he first saw them-- are those new? I really like them. They look great. Then later, I know I said this already but I really like those pants. They look really good on you. I said thank you but nothing else. And then when I showered and changed, I was SO TEMPTED to put on another pair of pants that i hadn't worn for awhile that are in the same style as the ones he said he liked. And I resisted. I put on ones that I like, but I didn't want to give him any inkling that I give a $hit what he thinks I look like.

Sage, a couple things are standing out to me from your post. One, the no regrets. That has been my mantra all along. No matter what, I want to be able to look back at this time and know in my bones that I did absolutely everything I could for my children. I believe that if I look back on this time and feel like I gave up, I think I'll always regret it because I do still believe that the #1 possible environment for my children is a two-parent household. Now I'm starting to understand that this isn't within my control. I am also a goal-setter, know what I want and work to get it. In this case, I can do everything humanly possible, but it isn't up to just me. That possibility takes two willing participants, and nothing I can say or do can make this happen the way I want it to happen. This has been such a humbling experience for me. I think I just need to work through what this all means now, letting go of the illusion of control, and accepting what is and isn't possible at this moment. What does that mean in terms of accepting D or being the one to pull the trigger, and how the future me will feel about that? I don't really know yet.

I also think allocating some hope to the D scenario is a good idea and something I need to think on. I've been spending time focusing on the small things that I'll enjoy being on my own-- a puppy being the biggest thing-- and have spent a little time daydreaming about what it would be like to fall in love again and have that experience with someone new, someone who really loves me and wants nothing more than to be with me and be happy together. Today, though, I'm feeling sad again about the loss of all that I thought I had, and all that I had dreamed for the future. It just hurts. And so, so hard not to want to wish it away since, as H keeps reminding me, he is still here. He hasn't left.

He had his IC yesterday and then when he was supposed to be watching the kids disappeared again into the basement, where he's working this week (he gave me the office). I went to find him to ask him to corral D8 since I had a call with my executive coach about my business stuff, and he gave me this huge eyed look and said he was on the phone with his mom. I put D8 in front of the TV, he eventually grabbed D10 to take her to soccer, he came home and tried to make super happy eye contact and hugged me and said Hi. I said Hi but didn't really respond otherwise. He made me a cocktail and sat with me outside. D8 and D10 came and sat on me and I was so, so sad that this was all happening, that this family (or at least illusion of family) was about to be gone forever. He told me the other day that he has been trying to destroy his marriage for the past two years without destroying his family. He wants his family, which includes me. Just not his marriage.

A couple of days ago, he brought up my business plans and said he wants me to follow my dream and do it. That he will stay in the M in order to make sure I can do it. That he knows I'm thinking it won't be possible in a D scenario because too risky and he doesn't want me to make that choice. That he'll support me no matter what and if we have to sell the condo to finance my business we should do that. I just shook my head and cried. He hugged me and said I was vulnerable in a way he's never seen me before. (Not sure if I had shared this here or just in my journal.) I share this here because what Alison said about wanting Mommy to help him is putting a new light on this conversation, also the one about the trips-- he wants me to say yes, that is the right decision. And last time around, in January/February-- I would have jumped on it and said YES OK I totally agree. Now I'm not saying that anymore. And it is so, so hard because I really do think if I said those things where he is right now, he very well might make the same decision he did before. But I know it can't be in any way fobbed off onto me to make the call. We already proved that won't work. This has to be his choice. And it is just so difficult to relinquish control and hope and sit in this sadness.

After dinner he went to do work and gave me a ton of space. He didn't bring up anything about the R. He went to bed before me (unusual these days) and I quietly got into bed after him. He leaned over and kissed me arm and asked me how I was doing. I said fine. I thought about it for a minute and asked him how he was. he said, not good. I said me either, I was lying. He said I figured that. Quiet for awhile, then D8 couldn't sleep and came in and snuggled. This morning he went surfing. Hugged me when he came home and didn't say anything.

I really appreciate everyone posting. I need it. xx


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2898385 06/24/20 09:36 PM
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(((May)))

I want to see more cold, angry and detached May. I know she is in there! .... And less loving, understanding and explaining/rationalizing/justifying May. .... Could it be that your giant, huge, heart and your brilliant mind are becoming your own worst enemy? Can you just take the situation and his choices at face value? He has been lying and cheating for years and continues to emotionally manipulate you, and control you, using the idea of "friendship" and family. No, he already ruined that, not you!

You have said several times that he is your best friend, your friendship has been better in the last many months, and then you describe how pleasant he acts on a daily basis (cooking, cleaning, taking the girls) etc. How do you define what "friendship" means? Because none of his actions have been friendly or considerate of you really. I think friends are honest, trustworthy and care for you (not just themselves). His caring for you looks more like he wants your acceptance and forgiveness of HIM! He wants off the hook so he can absolve his guilty conscious. That is not friendly, that is manipulation.

I am sorry for the 2*4. Not my intention. I am honestly afraid for you. I am worried that years down the road you might look back and shake your head and ask yourself why did I waste so many years of my life allowing his behavior! I want more for you. You deserve more than this bullcr-p! ... My mother-in-law would describe it perfectly in her heavy German accent (when my H would do the same nice guy things during his A) --- do not trust him, he is wolf in sheep's clothing.

I miss her. She was the best. She spit some hard truths, but she was usually right.

I know you read Alison's thread. She is done with her abuser. How much longer will you wait? People get annoyed when I say that we teach other how to treat us, and that if we let others abuse us, they will continue to,and they will never come back because they don't respect us for allowing it ..... but I think it's just another simple truth we cannot deny. ....

May, teach him you deserve more than this. Because you do! Drop the rope. Detach. There is nothing left to discuss with him right now.

Blu

Last edited by BluWave; 06/24/20 09:39 PM.

“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
may22 #2898425 06/25/20 01:23 AM
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Oh Blu, I want that detachment more than anything. I think it is coming. I feel like the only way I can reach that state is through anger and I had it on Sunday one hundred percent. His behavior since then is whittling away at me, even if in my mind I know it is just manipulation, a part of me still wants to believe. I am desperately still grasping onto the anger by running through my mind all the a-hole things he has done and is doing and deliberately avoiding thinking of my children. I know I could do it if he left. But it just so hard in the day to day.

I think I really have shifted into believing him. That is a major change-- one that you asked me to do many months ago-- but that was the big change for me on Sunday. I believe him. He is in love with someone else. He gave away something that was only supposed to be for me, for two years. That is helping me feel more detached and gave me permission, somehow, to focus finally on what is best for me, not just for my children.

The other problem is... I also do believe him that he was trying to return to the M. That he did break it off with her and wasn't just BS-ing me. And in that space, without focusing on what had happened in the past or what may happen in the present, things were good and we were good friends. It was just not enough. He was too weak or not committed enough or too fearful of what he might be missing out on. I remember you saying it would be impressive for someone just to decide to do the right thing and do it-- you've never seen that. They have to experience the loss to understand it. And I remember thinking, well, maybe we're that tiny percentage that works out this way, where he never had to MO and try and fail with AP.

Also, I was so fearful of how I would feel with the actual MO/leaving me step that I felt I would never, ever be able to forgive him for that. I don't know what that always has felt worse to me than the infidelity. It just did. This giant whiplash after four months of planning together for the future (exacerbated by being together and having a lot of fun 24/7 ever since Covid started) is awful. The parts about my business are especially heartbreaking, going from these months of planning and dreaming and experimenting and getting ready to pull the trigger and then now... what? If I need to make decisions for my own safety and protection, that becomes a pipe dream, for now.

In terms of how I define friendship... I think right now, the biggest way he is violating that is through his massive selfishness in both asking me to make this decision together with him and to imply that I'm the bad guy for not being just being cool with all of this because it would be in the best interest of the kids for us to be friends. It's really screwed up.

He told his brother today. I got super angry, because he told me he talked to him for a long time and I could tell he felt positive about the call. I couldn't help myself and asked what he had said. he said his brother ran a risk analysis for him and laid out all the risks of his choices, how likely they are, etc., and that of course by far the smart choice would be to end the A and work on the M. H said he was worried he couldn't let go of AP in his head and his brother gave him all sorts of ideas (amazing, he suggests NC, blocking numbers... genius!!) So we did end up with another partial R talk today, I did try to avoid saying anything about where I was and stopped him anytime he got hear talking about her, but yet another fail on my part. And I know I wasn't as cold and acting like I was moving on as I should have been, even though I didn't say anything that indicated where I was. I'm sure he could sense me leaning back in. Against my will I felt better knowing that his brother wasn't like follow your heart, dude! I don't know why that mattered, but it did.

I had an hour and a half on the phone with an attorney today who was really helpful. I need to transcribe my notes and make sure I fully absorb everything she said. But unfortunately the way I was looking at our assets was a little off, and there is a pretty significant financial disincentive from my perspective to Ding. So I need to sit with this a bit more too.

I started seeing an IC. Had my first session with her just now. We talked a lot about boundaries, and she said she could hear in my voice where my boundaries were around not talking about AP, not talking about fantasy D scenarios, not making this decision for him, not working on our R with a third party in the picture, not being friends if we split. I said I was trying to not talk to him at all, really, and she thought that was fair, but I clearly can't quite own that boundary yet.

She pushed me on where the rage and anger is for what has happened to date, the violations and the lying over these past years and said she thought it was worthwhile for me to sit in that for awhile and process it. (Just like you guys have been saying!) She also asked me if and why I would want to be with H after all of this and do I want him to go. I said, honestly, I don't know to #1 and (sadly, also honestly right at this moment) no, I don't want him to go. Part of me wishes he would so I could get on with my life. Maybe I need to sit more in the anger and answer question #1 in order to come authentically to question #2.

Doing an outdoor get-together with one of my best friends and her kids tonight, sans Hs. Really looking forward to that.

Love you guys.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
Page 10 of 11 1 2 8 9 10 11

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