Moving On

[may22]

It seems like every time something really major happens, it happens right at the end of a thread.

Link to my last thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2890139&page=all

Quick recap-- H had a 2 year long distance PA. Two daughters, aged 8 and 10. I found out full extent at the end of December, we went through six weeks of DC and incredible ambivalence where H wanted both AP as a lover and me as best friend/co-parent. He decided to end the A in mid-February though his decision was based more on the kids, inability to continue the current situation for all of us, and AP's desire to have children (she's 11 years younger than me and H firmly does not want more children) rather than a desire for me as a wife.

Over the past four months, things seemed to be going well. He was turning towards me more, being a great H in all ways except the romance wasn't there, though he did start to make some gestures towards it. We were in MC at first but once COVID hit, we stopped and H wanted to not talk about the A or our R given the stresses of the quarantine. I said OK and bounced around between being OK with it and having angst about not dealing with all the issues, including the fact that he hadn't ever given full transparency on the A and answered the questions that I had.

Two weeks ago, he agreed to have the talk and we went through everything, including how they had communicated, etc. He talked about her in the past tense, told me he had been thinking it wouldn't have worked out anyway, he thought about her less and less. The passion and angst he had around his feelings from her had faded considerably in the way he talked about her and their R. He also had had this buried but really deep anger towards me for the SSM we'd had for a long time (due to my lack of desire) that surfaced every time we started talking about why the A had happened... he finally started to move off of that space and talk about why he did what he did, trying to understand the immensity and gravity of what it all meant, hurting me, potentially the kids, etc. We started having some mini-R talks here and there about all of this.

It turns out that a couple of weeks before our talk, AP had sent him a message saying she was moving on, no turning back. He waited on responding for a few days and then responded he understood. (I had believed there was zero contact between them this whole time, but in fact there were a few texts and birthday calls here and there. He said that while I had asked for NC, he didn't think it was fair and so didn't adhere to it fully, but that they've barely communicated in that time frame and he considered their R over.)

Then, five days after our talk, he reached out to AP to make sure she was "OK" with the protests where she lived. She responded saying she'd had some major trauma, he called her, and it all took off from there. She told him she'd slept with someone, he panicked, and rewound to January where he's again totally in love with her, can't imagine happiness without her, also still wants me as his best friend, etc. His whole fantasy D scene has resurfaced. The difference now being that he has "tried" for the past four months to let her go, he can't, and also she's told him she doesn't want children any more if it means not being with him. (This is just so gross to me on so many levels, for both of them. But whatevs, none of my beeswax.)

We've talked a lot since that revelation. I've told him to go, asked him to go, he is refusing to leave. He can't decide what he wants. He knows he has to make a choice. He feels like if he doesn't choose her, that chance will be gone forever as she will move on. (I think he didn't fully do this the last time, thought she might still be there if things didn't work out with me.) I have told him to go if that is what he wants, but that he can't expect to be my friend. He doesn't get both. He is almost manic, a total mess, crying, depressed, bouncing back and forth. He doesn't want to hurt anyone, he can't see a path where anyone isn't badly hurt, no matter what path he chooses he'll be worse off.

He asked for six months to try out an R with her while living in the basement, and that at the end of that if he chooses me I'll know he is choosing ME rather than staying out of guilt/duty/kids. I said go for it, but I won't be here when you get back. Sorry. No hall passes, no coming back. Once he walks, that is my bright line and we are done. (I'm thinking I'm done regardless but need to sit with this a bit more.) He doesn't believe me, he thinks I will be friends with him for the sake of the girls in the end. All a totally familiar re-run.

Last night he came to me and asked for three things: one, that we make a decision as partners in this; two, that we both prioritize the children's well-being and preserve as much of the important parts of the family structure for them as possible; and three, for me to fully acknowledge the depth of his feelings for AP (he thinks I don't take them seriously, I think it is a fling, a fantasy, etc.) He feels if we can set these as the guidelines and work together envisioning all possible options, we can come to something together-- anything on the spectrum from M2.0 to he leaves for AP altogether. Just like last time, making a decision together is somehow really important to him.

I told him I was committed on the child front in principle though not committing to any particular structure (I wouldn't keep the kids from him); I wasn't sure if I could commit to the partnership piece, and I also didn't think I wanted to hear or learn anything more about how much he loves AP. That is hurtful and cruel to ask of me and I don't understand why this is so GD important to him, especially if we end up (as I think we will) apart. It is weird and wrong. He said he doesn't need to tell me any more details or information and can't fully define what "acknowledge" means, but he wants me to understand and believe how difficult and shattering it will be for him to lose her and the possibility of a future with her. (I know some of you guys are throwing things at him right now. Is this weird or what???) I told him what I need now is some space to really think about myself and what I need to protect myself and heal going forward, and I would let him know when I have something to share. This morning he came into the bedroom and laid on the bed next to me and cried.

So here we are! Woo-hoo! I want to say to all of you posting here for me how grateful and supported I feel right now. I feel love and compassion flowing to me and I can't tell you how much it means to me right now.

Here are my thoughts, in no particular order (sorry for the length of this post, guys, just trying to get it all out there for myself as much as anything):

-- in reflecting back on the last few weeks, I wonder if I hadn't pushed that transparency R talk if this would have happened. Whether it got him thinking about her again (combined with her reaching out), or the beginnings of discussions where he started to take responsibility for his own actions, rather than blaming it all on me and the SSM, setting conditions that essentially made the A inevitable-- I don't know. Probably it isn't worth worrying about, since I can't go back in time. And truthfully, I had my own issues around the A that needed to be addressed to start healing. Ironically, the conversation did help ME a lot, but maybe pushed my H in the wrong direction. Newbies, keep DBing even when you think you are getting to a safety zone.

-- I am thinking about asking (not telling) him to move out completely for a period of time if he wants space to pursue his R with AP. That moving to the basement won't really give him the full experience of what it will be like in an R with AP and D from me, and if that is the path he chooses, it is smarter to rip off the bandaid and really experience it rather than half-a$$ it in the basement, still having dinner at home etc. (He insists he would need access to the kitchen and would want to spend time with the kids whenever he could, saying it would be cruel of me to make him sit down here while he could be upstairs with the family. I could hold my nose and ignore him but it is wrong to deprive the kids of time with H or with both of us.) I think there is a possibility he would go for this if I positioned it like making sure he had the space he needed to work on his R with AP.

-- I need to think through some career stuff I had been working on. H is a consultant and we had been working on a plan all spring for me to leave my job, or go halftime, and start up my own consulting practice. I can only do this because of access to health care through H and the cushion of his salary and our savings gives me the opportunity to build up slowly. Now, I don't know that i can do this anymore. He doesn't want to actually D if we S, is fine with staying M on the books forever or as long as it is beneficial for me financially. He also said he is committed to me financially and wants me to go ahead with my plans, said the financial support doesn't change on his end. I told him I wasn't sure I would be able to do or accept that. I am angry at the potential loss of this new venture, which I was really excited about for myself, but probably isn't the smartest thing to do if I am on my own financially. I also am worried about how we afford a second place (we can't) and so if H wants to go off and do his own thing, I don't want to be supporting that from a shared financial perspective. As of now, his idea is that I would live in the house, have the kids living here full time, and he would get time with them every day, whether he lives in the basement or eventually somewhere else.

-- I don't know how I will feel if he says he wants to break it off with AP again. I am back to where I was in January-- I feel I can't really trust him, I know he isn't the person I need in an H right now. Maybe at some point he will be, but to me that is moot as I don't see taking him back after it becomes publicly known that he had an A, nor once we have to tell the kids we are breaking up. (<-- THAT is the thing I will never forgive him for-- breaking the girls' trust in love.) I might go through an exercise of what I would need in order to move forward with him, but not sure it is worthwhile at this point and just has my head somewhere it doesn't really need to be. I did tell him that 100% honesty and transparency is an absolute must no matter what. He can't go along with something because I say it is necessary but not really agree, and then decide on his own to skirt around here and there (like he called her on her birthday to say HBD, he felt it was NBD, he didn't feel anything from it, and it helped him in his healing so why hurt me by telling me about it? Whereas... I don't think I need to explain it to you guys. On a side note, this just infuriates me more that he is now saying his love for her never abated, yet in the next breath that he talked to her twice over the past four months, plus a few texts, and it was all fine and dandy to not be with her until this last conversation where it was "different".

-- I've put my kids first in this the whole time. I have swallowed so much pride and power in the slim chance that we can make this work without hurting them. (I think I am pretty clear-eyed on this one-- they are not in a bad place because of what is happening in our R at this moment.) I want to start thinking about myself now, and what I need/want in a R in the future. Yet, yet, yet. I think I've said this before, but the idea of doing this to the kids is the most gut-wrenching thing. It makes me physically ill. I talked to my one friend yesterday, who was amazing, and also said she thinks it is time for me to start putting the focus on me, but she knows the girls will be OK no matter what, and that was the one thing that broke me.

I'll respond individually later where it makes sense, but please know how much I appreciate and need all this support right now. It is hard to have gone from starting to hope--feeling like i was finally seeing real progress-- to this in the space of a few days.

[Pommy99]

May, oh boy, I’m reeling from what I’ve read tonight. I’m so sorry that he’s done this again. You deserve so much better. I want to write a proper reply but it’s midnight here. H is feeling the consequences of his choice to end the affair, and the prospect that he’s lost AP forever. He now needs to experience the other side: the consequences of leaving you and all that that entails. Not continue to have this pseudo-family life and home-comforts. I feel like I would be insistent on him leaving, physically removing himself from the family home, living with the reality and enormity of his choices. It’s for your health as well. Keep strong May. Your R may feel like it is back where it was in Jan , but you as a person have grown since then and you are better equipped to deal with this than you may believe. Sending hugs xx

[may22]

The question you have to ask yourself isn't should I kick him out or not but what am I standing for ?

Have you ever honestly looked at your M, your H or have you been too busy trying to save your M, fix your H?

I need to spend some time here. I did re-read through my threads and journals back in December/Jan/Feb, when I was in the same space as I am now. I did take some time then to really assess my H and whether he is the kind of person I want to be with long-term, and if my M was the kind of M I wanted long-term. I would say... maybe. I still believe H is a good but flawed human being, though being incredibly selfish right now, plus he is in love with someone else which kind of makes him a bad H by definition, whether he is currently in contact with her or not. The hard thing is our R in the past several months has been so good, except for the romance, and I definitely started to feel the loss of that. It is ironic that I never missed it before. Maybe I just want what I don't have. I don't know.

I know it's complicated, it's hard, kids are involved, sunk costs, you love him -- girl, ask yourself honestly. Is this love, to you? Is this acceptable, to you? Love is commitment, it's showing up. That's all it is. It's not happiness, it's not lust, it's not anything else. Feelings fade. Love is a choice. He's choosing to love someone else. [/scout]
I am 100% with you. But to him, right now, love is a feeling. He's said it over and over. He wants to feel that feeling with someone and he doesn't feel that with me, anymore (or maybe ever, to the extent he feels it with AP). And it is true that I did not show him love for many years during the SSM -- I did take him for granted. Anyway, no, this isn't love to me. Hopefully I will do better in my next R.

[quote=AlisonUK]I don't think you can R with a man who wants someone else, and isn't willing to do the work to get her out of his life and repair both himself and the marriage. I believe you have waited, and I believe you said you were going to wait and maybe see where you were in August. Do you want to do that still, or does this change things?
...
The only thing I think is left to you now is strict 100% consistent, cold, cold cold Last Resort going dark. You act as if you are single and he happens to be there, and you are willing to tolerate it civilly.
...
He will probably try every emotionally manipulative trick in the book to get you to stop it so he can have what he wants - your approval and forgiveness and the admiration of his grubby little mistress, and all of you buying into the fiction that he has a one great love, and a brilliantly understanding best friend who just happens to be the mother of his children. But that isn't true. It never was. He just needs it to be so he's not a complete... well... reprobate - and you don't need to give him that story. And even though the process of divorcing him will be horrible and it will hurt, it will also have an end point - where you can close the door and lock it behind him. And the other version of the story - where you wait for him to grow a conscience and commit to you - that doesn't really have an end point, does it?
...
I think your husband needs to change, badly. Your marriage won't work unless he changes his mind about his mistress, about who he is, about his part in it, and about what he needs to do next. And people don't change unless the discomfort of that is outweighed by the comfort of staying the same. I think your H is pretty well comfortable right now - and I'm not sure you can supply enough discomfort to him that would outweigh what it is going to cost him to take a look at himself and the stories he has been spinning himself.
...
Sit with this. Think about whether you want a man like this - who isn't able to reflect on his own behaviour, and who thinks treating women this way is preferable than taking the pain of self reflection.

I am sitting with this. What is angering me right now is that I *did* see signs of change, of reflection, the beginnings of taking responsibility. And maybe that is what scared him right back into the arms of AP. I don't know and it isn't within my control, but it still is a bummer as it gave me hope (making this right now all the harder) and also, at least a little, shows that it might be possible. He told me last night (again) that he is scared he did so much damage to our R, to me, that it will be impossible for him to get over it and to forgive himself. Maybe this is true, in which case there is no point to continuing to hope for a future. He bounces back and forth between that narrative and the "I deserve to be happy too" story.

In/re supplying discomfort and cold cold cold LRS... I'm unsure I can do this while he is in the house, in front of the children. I have a really hard time with demonstrating this in front of them. I have been distant and quiet but responsive so far today. This is one of the big reasons why I would like him to leave. I simply don't think I can pull off an authentic cold NC under the same roof while under quarantine.

Also, I had a question for you (Alison) about boundaries vs. control. He feels that i am forcing him to stay by threatening him with the withdrawal of my friendship if we S under these circumstances. (I have said that if I felt like we both had given our R the best shot and agreed we were better off apart than together, I could remain friends with him... but that wasn't going to happen with AP in the picture. I can't work on our R in any capacity, towards civil S/D or M2.0, with a third party in the picture. That is a boundary for me). I feel you are the vvvvv best at boundaries... how would you put this or live this out? Just show him after he leaves? This is hard because of his insistence that we do this together. (As I write this I realize what a crazy fantasy world he is living in, to expect or even ask this of me.)

I don't know if I will wait. i don't want to make any decisions from an emotional standpoint and right now neither of us are forcing anything. I think I know what the smart choice is for me-- move on.

[BluWave]

Oh May, I’m so sorry this is happening. Something told me to check here but I was not prepared for this — what a gut punch. I’m really angry at your H! Grow up, man! I wish I had some amazing words of wisdom for you. I don’t. I’m really sad for you, esp after he has already dragged through this and then gave you false hope. Perhaps it wasn’t what he wanted but more what he felt he should do. So he never completely ended it with her, because like with any addiction, heroin, etc, the only thing that works is cold turkey. And then a lot of soul searching hard work on yourself. Unfortunately he did neither.

I’m trying not to be too bias but it’s hard not to. I do still wonder if his longing for her is in large part due to the fact that he could never really have her. So he feels like he is in some Shakespearean situation and being forced apart which fuels his desire further. I think there is a very good chance if he ever lives out this fantasy and has any real R with her, it will fade and destruct. Seems to be the more likely scenario (and exactly what happened with my H). That is his bad choice to make tho. I do wish he would stop with his big crocodile tears and telling you “but we have to be a family and remain best friends,” because that is all emotional manipulation. It also shows how far his head is wedged up his arse because news flash, best friends don’t treat each other like this! At what point in the last three years has he really considered your feelings??? It’s just “but you can’t forgive me” and “I want this and that” me me me!

I know your final straw now feels like when you tell the kids there is no coming back from that. I get it. The thing is, he may not actually be able to come back in any real sense until he tries this out and then fails miserably (he will) and on some (buried subconscious) level even he knows that. So you can’t have it both ways can you? If he does what is asked of him and goes no contact with her, he won’t be in it because he’s remorseful and really wants the M, thus he cannot do the hard work. If he fails at it and really loses you, your family, and your life together, well that there might become a changed man with all the motivation. That might be a man worth giving that chance to. You can’t know that now. And you do not ever wait for someone as they go off and cheat for 6 months. That’s a firm no.

I know I’m not telling you anything you don’t know. I do see you trying to figure out if/how you could ever take him back and what that would require. The bad news is, I don’t think you will ever figure it out until it’s happening. I think all you can do is accept the way things stand now, keep your boundaries, and just let him go. Set yourself free. You are an amazing, strong and beautiful woman, May. I know it. I admire you so much. This troubled man doesn’t deserve your love. You decide if you can ever love him, or be his friend, when (if and only if) he shows you an honorable and good man first.

Hugs!!!
Blu

[HaWho]

Just a quick recap. He’s been at this affair for 2 years. 2 YEARS! And he’s confused when the choice is between his loyal wife and a woman who gets with a married man, then sleeps with someone the second her relationship with him ends, insists she wants children until it means losing him and then suddenly no longer wants kids? This woman is lost and he’s attracted to her because like attracts like. You can’t hold his attraction right now because he is lost and you are capable.

In regards to him feeling you are giving him an ultimatum that you can’t be friends if you separate under these conditions, let’s roll back the clock. If you met this guy again when you were young and single and these were his conditions what would your answer be? I suspect you would be laughing as you ran out the door. How and why would it be different now? Don’t you deserve MORE respect now? How would you advise your daughters if they came to you for advice in these scenarios.

As for him living in the basement and playing Mr. Proper Family guy, think carefully here. He will be having sex with her and then having pancakes with you all in the AM. By the way, my ex came to me and said he wanted to “find himself” by getting an apartment, staying there on Friday and Saturday nights but coming home before the kids woke. He insisted he was not cheating but was basically asking to start dating and have an open marriage and was shocked when I said no in the same instant he asked. They are so lost they have no sense of their entitlement. He lived at home for 4 years after that, moved into the spare room and proceeded to live like a teenager. It was awful to live through. Please picture what you are agreeing to as he’ll be talking and texting her all the time for your house. How will you be practicing self care and healing through all this?

Lastly, that whole bit about him not wanting a D so finances can stay the same? This is a man who hid a 2 year long affair right? This is a man who ended his affair and was over it until he wasn’t. He is not trustworthy right now. Plus, this woman will be pushing for legitimacy. He’ll be in the honeymoon of limerence. Google limerence affairs because he is there!

Remember, if you maintain your dignity you have not lost a thing. We teach people how to treat us.

[may22]

Oh Blu,

I am so glad you checked in. I have had you in my thoughts quite a bit the past few days. I don't know if you know how helpful you have been to me through all of this. I kept some of your posts on a note on my phone to read when I felt down. I think I'm going to pick that back up again since I'm back to that same place.

I think what I'm working through right now is a lot of disappointment about where it seemed we were going and then this whiplash back to square one. (or square two... he keeps saying a lot of positivity came out over the past four months, quarantining together... but I'm not sure what that means exactly. He says it in the context of me expressing my frustration and that "we're back to where were in January" (by which I mean in that painful ambivalence and limbo place and I don't want to go through that again). I don't know if he means we wouldn't be starting from scratch if we decided to work on our M, or that our R is much better so he thinks I'm more likely to want to stay friends. Who knows.) I think I need to just let myself grieve a little bit the hope I had for our R that had sprung up over the past weeks. I also have regret that we had that R talk a couple of weeks ago, both because it gave me a lot of hope that I wouldn't have if I had just let it ride, plus maybe we wouldn't be where we are now. I think I need to be able to let that regret go too. It is what it is.

I agree that there is a lot of the Romeo and Juliet, wanting what you can't have, between them. I actually said as much to him, that the reason he was all of a sudden so interested in her again because she was actually moving on, and he keyed into that for some reason, thinking he needed to sort out for himself how much was jealousy and pursuer-distancer vs. true love. (I think he's settled back on True Love.) I think it has been a huge dynamic in their R... sounds like every couple of months all last year she gave him an ultimatum, he couldn't tell me/leave me, they'd stop communicating for a few weeks, and then start it back up again. It feels so unhealthy and to me that drama must totally fuel the flames and ongoing limerence. He feels like it can't be limerence because they've gone through "so much" in the past year, all this heartache, etc., and doesn't realize that the secrecy and distance and ultimatums and tearful reunions is just keeping those drug feelings going.

That all being said, I fully think they could be happy together. I truly don't know. He definitely believes it to the center of his being. To me she sounds unreal, like a fantasy of a GF who just loves him so much all she wants is for him to be happy, no demands, just wants to rub his back and tear off his clothes and listen to his advice with starry eyes. (Compared to me, with all my demands and lines and bills and chores.) I was annoyed that she asked him for advice about what kind of puppy to get (this was her pretext for their last call which ended up with her dropping the sex bomb and also the fact that she is considering plans to travel with some dude who has had a thing for her for a long time that H already knows about this summer.) H HATES dogs. He said, totally serious and a little offended, she trusts my advice. What is wrong with that? hahahahaha.

If this is real, she's truly this fantasy GF and that is what he wants, IDK. (I'd say "his funeral" but with my kids dragged into all this drama it isn't really just his life that is impacted, and that makes me angry all over again.) I feel like I need to just detach to the point where I no longer care. Some of the threads I've been following- FlySolo, Hope, others-- whose Hs are now dating new people, going on vacations with new people... that is hard for me to imagine being OK with at this point. The thought of AP interacting with my children triggers RAGE inside me. It actually scares me how much that thought impacts me. But, none of this is in my control.

Also, I agree with you that he needs to be IN for R to work. He can't half-a$$ it the way he did this time, doing the time and apparently evaluating our R (nope, don't have true love with May yet! Guess this isn't going to work!) while still holding onto hope for AP at some point in the future. He's got to have actual hope for M2.0 with ME, not just think he's dooming himself to a passionless M for his kids and letting go of his only chance of happiness. Plus, I don't know that he can get over the fact that he did so much damage to me and the R for us to get past it. He doesn't believe he can. I think that these are both self-fulfilling prophecies. And therefore a waste of time for me.

I want to let him go. I fully agree that I won't know if/when/how I'll process a decision about whether or not to take him back until I'm there... but I really feel like there is no point to thinking that through right now. If it happens and I still want that, we will see.

In terms of letting him go-- I am not totally sure how at the moment. I am trying to think about just stopping all R talks for a bit, focusing on me, not forcing him into the basement or whatever. When he comes to me with the decision to go, I will say OK. I won't say anything about not being friends since that gets interpreted as a threat. I will just say OK and then ask him to consider moving into an apartment rather than the basement. Maybe I'll do some research ahead of time for him to see if it is actually workable financially. (Sage, I have your H's expensive year-long lease on my mind!)

[may22]

May, oh boy, I’m reeling from what I’ve read tonight. I’m so sorry that he’s done this again. You deserve so much better. I want to write a proper reply but it’s midnight here. H is feeling the consequences of his choice to end the affair, and the prospect that he’s lost AP forever. He now needs to experience the other side: the consequences of leaving you and all that that entails. Not continue to have this pseudo-family life and home-comforts. I feel like I would be insistent on him leaving, physically removing himself from the family home, living with the reality and enormity of his choices. It’s for your health as well. Keep strong May. Your R may feel like it is back where it was in Jan , but you as a person have grown since then and you are better equipped to deal with this than you may believe. Sending hugs xx

Thanks Pommy... been thinking of you and all the similarities in our sitches. I think you're totally right. Though I think I need to let him go no matter what and not think about if he may or may not come back after this. I can't have any scent of doing it in hopes he comes back, both for myself and for him. Hoping I can get him out of the house and not just to the basement. Every time we've talked about it so far, he goes immediately into "this is my house too" and it gets really fiery really fast. I wish he would want to get an apartment like all these other bozos!

In regards to him feeling you are giving him an ultimatum that you can’t be friends if you separate under these conditions, let’s roll back the clock. If you met this guy again when you were young and single and these were his conditions what would your answer be? I suspect you would be laughing as you ran out the door. How and why would it be different now? Don’t you deserve MORE respect now? How would you advise your daughters if they came to you for advice in these scenarios.

Hi HaWho, thanks for stopping by... Yes, yes, and yes. The kids and house and all the trappings of M just makes it so complicated. I don't feel I can exactly run laughing out the door. I also am NOT LEAVING my own house or my own children. Which makes it kind of sticky.

As for him living in the basement and playing Mr. Proper Family guy, think carefully here. He will be having sex with her and then having pancakes with you all in the AM. By the way, my ex came to me and said he wanted to “find himself” by getting an apartment, staying there on Friday and Saturday nights but coming home before the kids woke. He insisted he was not cheating but was basically asking to start dating and have an open marriage and was shocked when I said no in the same instant he asked. They are so lost they have no sense of their entitlement. He lived at home for 4 years after that, moved into the spare room and proceeded to live like a teenager. It was awful to live through. Please picture what you are agreeing to as he’ll be talking and texting her all the time for your house. How will you be practicing self care and healing through all this?

I know! All of this is why I do NOT WANT HIM LIVING IN THE HOUSE. I don't understand why he doesn't get this part. I know he partially thinks I don't really love him, I just want him for his trappings (H, father of kids, paycheck) so even though I'm mad now I'll get over it and be fine and best friends again soon. Oh, and I would really like AP if only I knew her. bahahahaha. I guess if it gets there, I'll figure out the finances and file for D. The D and the financial impact that will have on both of us and our kids is another source of real anger for me that I need to just suck up and deal with, I guess.

[cardinal]

Dear may—I just want to quickly jump in to say try not to spend too much energy on regretting that R talk. I really doubt it pushed H in this direction. It seems like he was already halfway there and just not being honest with himself or you. And I know you know this, but if a little realness from you could push him right back into the arms of AP (who, yes, sounds like a total fantasy, kind of like how puppies are cute but turn out to be a ton of work), well, he is so not worthy of you right now.

Maybe my H and your H can get a place together, if they ever leave, start up that Real World MLC. Maybe too soon for that joke—if so, sorry! I just empathize so much with your frustration that your H is declaring it’s his house too, and with your conviction that you will not leave.

[AlisonUK]

May - I want to see if I can make you laugh. I think you've got this. I think you know what you need to do for most of this, and when you don't know, you know how to find out - by sitting with yourself, taking the 2x4 when you need them, and thinking about how your actions align with your values. The values of being honest, patient respecting your husband's autonomy and above all, putting your children and your own emotional and physical well being first will get you through this. Live those values.

Now, the laugh. It's first thing in the morning in the UK and I was reading the forum on my phone while having an early morning cup of tea. When I came to this line:

As of now, his idea is that I would live in the house, have the kids living here full time, and he would get time with them every day, whether he lives in the basement or eventually somewhere else.

I rolled my eyes so hard that tea got on the sheets, had to go downstairs and get my computer so I could reply properly. I like to keep my language civil on the forum, so please imagine me in my dressing gown, wild-hair, cackling like a witch and using language ill-befitting a lady.

You asked about boundaries.

Boundaries aren't about control simply because they aren't about the other person. They aren't rules for other people's behaviour, they are rules for how I respond to the world.

My rule is that I don't hang out with H when he is drinking. He is an adult with his own money and he is free to drink himself into a stupor every single night if he wants. He can give up his job and drink full time if that is his heart's desire. Now in actual fact, what he does is drink a bit too much when he is stressed, and when he does that, I go to a different room. I don't think he even knows I have this boundary - I see no reason to tell him about it, because it isn't a rule for him, it is for me. He doesn't need to choose between me or drinking - he can do whatever he likes, and so can I.

Boundaries aren't there to control the outcome. They are there as self protection. I don't have conversations where H is shouting. He can shout all he likes, but he will be doing it to someone else or to an empty room. I haven't sat down and explained this too him - a good boundary doesn't need explaining - I just get up and say 'I will listen to you when you're calmer' and then do something else.

A friendship boundary, for me, is about how close I let people get to me. Some people are in the outer bubble. I am civil and polite and I smile in greeting and if they were in an emergency, I would of course help as they are a human being. They don't get to know about my family life, or my heart, or what I fear or think and feel about things, or much about how I spend my spare time or what I want for the future. I don't tell these people 'we're not friends' as there's no need. I just live my boundary. Sometimes I have an excellent reason for a person being in this outer circle - because I've experienced or witnessed behaviour from them I don't want in my life, because I find their values incompatible with my own, or simply because I don't know them yet. I don't need to explain that to them, or tell them what they need to do to get into the inner circle, because the boundary is just for me and not for them. They can do what they do, and I decide how to respond.

Your H wants you to tell him you will be his friend. He wants your approval. I'd refuse to get into any form of conversation like that with him. For the following reasons 1. he's insane and he's manipulating you to provide some approval so he doesn't feel so guilty or confused 2. he wants a mistress and a wife and he's blaming you for the fact life doesn't work like that, and making the problem yours to fix instead of his own and 3. a good boundary is not to have personal conversations with someone who treats you badly and isn't trustworthy.

[Pommy99]

Thanks Pommy... been thinking of you and all the similarities in our sitches. I think you're totally right. Though I think I need to let him go no matter what and not think about if he may or may not come back after this. I can't have any scent of doing it in hopes he comes back, both for myself and for him. Hoping I can get him out of the house and not just to the basement. Every time we've talked about it so far, he goes immediately into "this is my house too" and it gets really fiery really fast. I wish he would want to get an apartment like all these other bozos!

It's easy for him to stay - he's emotionally detached and doesnt feel the pain and sadness of living under the same roof that you do, and he gets his home comforts and family life. You cant move on with him in the same house. The ridiculous thing, however, and this is the bit he hasn't thought through, how is he going to take his R with AP further whilst living with you? And AP will hate the fact he is still living with you. You can see how completely flawed his mindset is right now.

Yes, there are so many similarities with my H. All the times last year H told me he was NC with EAP and yet in January finally admitted that he'd been in contact with her all year "pretty much". There is no hope for a R whilst she is in the frame, even if she had only been in his peripheral vision for a bit. I remember something my H would do in trying to describe how he felt (or didnt) about me. He would hold a clenched fist to his stomach and say that he didnt feel it from there - romantic love, desire, etc. In his head, however, his logical and probably moral brain was telling him I was his wife, this was our family, these were his responsibilities. And he would try and push aside the feelings that came from his stomach about wanting romantic love, and he would focus on me, try and build intimacy, do all the nice family things, talk himself into the M, looking at 2nd property/getting a puppy/going back to our favourtie holiday place, but he admitted he could only do this for a short time then all the other feelings about the missing piece would bubble up through the surface.

Before I read your posts yesterday, I had already been thinking about something you said to me in the last week or 2 in response to my H wanting to come home but seemingly making a decision based on emotion - his fear of losing me, of me having met someone else, and losing his family. This was the first time my H had viewed me and the M from a place of emotion rather than logic. It made me think a lot because I had asked you if making an emotional decision was bad thing - and I'm still trying to work through that - whether my H has mad a decision for the "right" reasons. You said your H had made all his decisions about ending the A and committing to the M based on logic. I can see your H's thought processes being very similar to my Hs (when he would try and tell himself that he should work on his M). Your H still has this internal battle with heart vs head decisions. No wonder his desired outcome is the best of both worlds. (But again, flawed thinking (I know we all know all this...they just dont seem to get it!)...how is AP going to feel about her new BF being best friends with his XW, living close by his XW, having dinner most days with his XW. They cannot envisage anything from anyone else's perspective. He hasnt once considered HER feelings in all of this, and what her boundaries might be in a R with him. He is completely in a bubble.) Your H is still so much on the fence May, he thinks he jumped over your side, but he kept popping his head over the other side. He needs to go and spend some time on the other side and that fence be so high that he can't get back over right now.

I know you will make the right choices May - whether you decide that you continue to stand or not - but it's really time for tough love. Making decisions for you and the kids are not ultimatums or controlling behaviours - they are saying "enough". Sending big hugs across the pond!