Persistent Endurance (Part 8)

[Traveler]

Hi Curtis,

WW came over and fed the horses.
...
She said there’s nothing, that she hasn’t talked to BFFs about anything.

I see. So, as of 3 days ago, she's still lying to you.

If she cheats again, what will you do with her horse, so you can truly feel the sanity of No Contact?

She said she doesn’t know and left for an appointment.

How do you know where she went?

[MrBrside]

Curtis,

You must have a love of this roller coaster - as it goes round and round and you never seem to want to get off.

I powered it on to test and discovered that my WW had resumed her PA with OM3. I learned that the phone conversations with him over Memorial Day weekend weren’t a relapse but part of a total collapse.

She never ever stopped being wayward - ever !. You just try and convince yourself otherwise.

So, on that day when the wool was removed from my eyes,

Highly unlikely - I'm just waiting for the predictable ultamatum you will throw her way, thinging it will woo here back

H: “Don't bother coming back until you are 100% committed to no contact with your lover.”
[/quoye]

hmm - i hadn't even scroll down that far to read this bit - your are so predictable. To us and to your wife


[quote=curtis7]I said “You have to decide right now in this moment, him or me. You will not get another chance. This is the biggest decision of your life.

CONTROL and PRESURE - You have learmt nothing in over 12 months here.. NOTHING - You bully your way to get the outcome you desire - But never get the outcome. Your WW can see how predictable you are ( and desperate to reconcile ) so will just tell you what you want to hear.

She had the look of fear, someone crying out for help but to weak to give up her addiction. I couldn’t believe it, did she mean it this time or is this her reaction to fear of being kicked to the curb for good. I told her actions are all that matter now. Her words don’t mean much to me and that I don’t trust her. Actions talk now. She said something along the lines of don’t make me regret this and if I don’t treat her right and regrets her decision, then she will leave.

LOL.. really.... ( bangs head against a brick wall ) - and time for another lap or two on the rollercoast - and more time where you could have been working on you, goes out the window.

WW started justifying her A again in that we were separated and she waited until she moved out.

Again, read whats Sandi writes about genuine remorse and being humble.. This IS NOT remorse - Hence still wayward - arghh

I asked what about since you’ve been back and leading me to believe you were NC with him. Then I asked about OM1 (co-worker). It may not have been physical but you started an emotional affair with him before you gave me the letter (referring to BD on 11/6/2018). I gave her my definition of cheating and that’s anything you share with someone that you wouldn’t want your spouse to see or hear. She said the affair started with OM1 the day after our anniversary in 2018. Completely new information to me, turns out this was a PA over 2 months prior to BD!

I told her a NC letter approved by me and sent to him laying out that it was over forever in no uncertain terms is the first step. She agreed to it.

CONTROL - DICTATING - UNTIMATUMS

This is you through and through - We see this - she knows this .. Hence we all know that she will ignore you.

I asked why she was willing to give everything up for a 2% chance of that relationship working out, if she saw a future. She replied she sees no future for her, it’s a complete void. The woman is completely lost in the fog. I told her I’d prefer not to talk about OM3 again beyond what’s needed for the NC letter.

CONTROL - DESPERATION = NO RESPECT.. I cringe when i see this. The woman is lost in a fog - BUT SO ARE YOU... La la land - 12 months later.. and even then you want her to write a letter - 2% chance ??? 0.00000000002 % curtis as you don't change/

She decided to stay.

As it suits her - not for you

A few days after the ultimatum I asked when she was planning to send the NC letter. She said she already did the following day via email, then deleted the account (her secret online dating email address). She doesn’t know if he got it and hasn’t checked google voice where she would text him. I was displeased and reminded her I wanted to see the letter before she sent it. She said she didn’t remember that from our talk. I asked what did it say. She said it was 3 sentences. It said something like “I have decided to end this relationship for my family. We can have no further contact. I am sorry.”

I asked if she meant what she said about me that I make her cringe. She said there are a lot of past hurts that she hasn’t gotten past with me. She didn’t have those with the OM so she felt a lot of love towards them. I tried to reassure that it gets easier a month, 6 months, 1-2 years later. I asked for a plan for us and said that the first step was no contact so I appreciated she did that.

Still telling her ! You really do come across a controlling.

I’ve decided that I’m at a point in this sitch that if I see something that crosses my boundary, then I’m going to say something or act. No longer will I let it slide. I’m not going back to a life of living in an open marriage, never again.

Doubt this - you don't listen and i very much doubt you can drop the rope.

My W’s affair fog clock was reset to zero.

classic - i'm sure we have read something along these lines before lol.. Honestly ? Seriously ? lol

It was probably the first of her multiple rock bottoms. For those that remember, I took my kids for a 2 week vacation to California and when I returned, W wanted me to keep the kids every night for a few weeks. There are some things I read on her phone from that time period that confirm she was in a very dark place. She was coming to grips with the enormity of her choices and how toxic she was. I’m not going into more detail about that as she seems to have recovered from that low point.

Well she remained wayward for another 12 months - hardly rock bottom -!

My sitch continues.

And always will - because you just do as you see fit.

I’m grateful that I’ve reached this point where R could be a possibility.

You really are intent on pain or are in la la land - like really - this is where you now stop posting for 4 weeks knowing the 2x4 will be coming your way - to then post again in July, posting a similar story again - and the horse will still be there as a lure to keep the WW around- God bless the horse..

[Traveler]

Still telling her ! You really do come across a controlling.

Curtis, I felt that "controlling" vibe all throughout your post, too.

She said that he and others have said the same thing about me and that is when I get what I want and that is total control of her, that I will change back and treat her poorly.

Imagine if you 180'd that controlling behavior, how obvious the change would be! I so, so want to see you succeed. It may require you to hit rock bottom and make big changes but it's possible.

[scout12]

H: “Don't bother coming back until you are 100% committed to no contact with your lover.”

That’s all you needed to say.

[SteveLW]

Two weeks ago I changed the screen on W’s old phone that was recently replaced as we were going to give it to D5 as a toy. I powered it on to test and discovered that my WW had resumed her PA with OM3. I learned that the phone conversations with him over Memorial Day weekend weren’t a relapse but part of a total collapse.

Here is the backstory, W went NC on April 13. Her AP sent her a text May 10 on Mother’s Day wishing her a good day. WW had one of her BFF’s check her blocked messages a few days later and she told her there was one. WW chose to re-engage and responded Thanks. A couple days later on May 14, WW started the barrage of hundreds of texts and calls with OM3. This explained a lot as she stopped watching shows in the evening with me around that time and now I understand it was because she was communicating with him incessantly while lying in the guest bed at night. She made it about 5 weeks NC before giving in to the temptation again. Some of the messages said “this was calculated” referring to her staying here for the virus and backing away from him so that I would calm down after OM3 came to our house. She also told him she cringes at the thought of touching me as he always seemed concerned that her and I were having a physical relationship during their A. I don’t know if these were things she said to him for appeasement or if she really meant it. ILUs, sexting, and future plans were exchanged daily. She left the kids at our house one of the nights I was on the golf trip Memorial Day weekend to have sex with him at her affair house. A few days later she had him sleep over there one night, then met him for sex in the morning after telling me she had to go into work that day.

So, on that day when the wool was removed from my eyes, WW was working on a project at her affair house. I was livid, thought about it for a few hours and decided I wanted to move forward with D. I sent the following texts:
H: “Don't bother coming back until you are 100% committed to no contact with your lover.”
WW: “Huh?”
H: “I am done being disrespected. Stay out of my life until you can break free of your addiction.”
H: “I will not live another day in an open marriage. We can proceed with the settlement. You can tell the kids tonight that you are having an affair.”
WW: “May I ask where the hell this came from?”
I did not respond. Instead I gathered her clothes, toiletries, and a few of her other belongings and set them outside the garage. An hour later she texts:
WW: “I need to feed horses and get my stuff.”
I did not respond.

WW came over and fed the horses. She loaded her $hit in the trunk as I brought a bag of her shoes outside to set on the driveway. She asked where all of this came from all of sudden. I told her it doesn’t matter and I’m done with all the lies. She continued to press and asked who told you something. I replied I know you’re screwing him again. I repeated I’m done. I said “You have to decide right now in this moment, him or me. You will not get another chance. This is the biggest decision of your life.” WW went to her car like she was going to leave. She got back out then held out her phone and said “Here.” I looked at it and said “What?” wondering if she wanted me to check the message history that was likely erased. She said “Take it, I won’t do it again.” She was offering transparency and to go no contact. She said she would stop forever with tears in her eyes. She had the look of fear, someone crying out for help but to weak to give up her addiction. I couldn’t believe it, did she mean it this time or is this her reaction to fear of being kicked to the curb for good. I told her actions are all that matter now. Her words don’t mean much to me and that I don’t trust her. Actions talk now. She said something along the lines of don’t make me regret this and if I don’t treat her right and regrets her decision, then she will leave.

We talked for a few hours in the garage. WW started justifying her A again in that we were separated and she waited until she moved out. I asked what about since you’ve been back and leading me to believe you were NC with him. Then I asked about OM1 (co-worker). It may not have been physical but you started an emotional affair with him before you gave me the letter (referring to BD on 11/6/2018). I gave her my definition of cheating and that’s anything you share with someone that you wouldn’t want your spouse to see or hear. She said the affair started with OM1 the day after our anniversary in 2018. Completely new information to me, turns out this was a PA over 2 months prior to BD!

She said she didn’t feel appreciated because we only said happy anniversary to each other during the day, then I went to play basketball at night. I told her affairs during separation meant cheating to me, it may not have to her, but it meant that to me. We continued to voice our needs to each other. I told her no contact whatsoever could ever happen again and she needs to develop a plan for how our marriage will be better. She didn’t know where to start, she was at a loss. I told her a NC letter approved by me and sent to him laying out that it was over forever in no uncertain terms is the first step. She agreed to it.

WW said OM3’s a victim, that I’m a victim, and she caused it all. WW was feeling sorry for herself. She said he is a narcissist. I agreed he is and he needs to get his fix from her as his supply. I said he sucked you right back in, it’s called hoovering and she said I know. I said he can’t get a single available woman so he preys on vulnerable married women like you. I said you jumped right back in with the constant texting and calls, you told me how much of a time suck that was and I asked if that was something she needs. She said no, it is draining and she was going to ask him to scale back on it and all the sexual talk. Then she said maybe she’s the narcissist. I said that’s something you’re going to have to work through yourself, either way it’s not your job to save him. She’s said he’s not a bad person or some monster that I want to make him out to be. I replied it’s probably easier for me to think of him that way to take some of the blame away from you. She said that he and others have said the same thing about me and that is when I get what I want and that is total control of her, that I will change back and treat her poorly. I told her I intend to keep the changes she’s seen in me for the rest of my life, whether I’m with her or not. I said I realized how destructive they were to us and me as a person and I’m not going back to that. That seemed to reassure her because her friends obviously told her otherwise.

I asked why she was willing to give everything up for a 2% chance of that relationship working out, if she saw a future. She replied she sees no future for her, it’s a complete void. The woman is completely lost in the fog. I told her I’d prefer not to talk about OM3 again beyond what’s needed for the NC letter.

W said she enjoys when we do things as a family like when we go for rides together. One thing she needs is that I never use the kids as pawns to manipulate our relationship. She said she will leave if I do that. She asked me to look her in the eye when I responded to that. She sat there with a blank look on her face saying she doesn’t know what to do. If she’s supposed to stay or go. I asked what she was committing to, NC or working on us? I explained when she came back in April that I was hopeful that she was NC with him and might give us a chance. Then, she made it clear that there was no us, so I backed off as I felt she needed time to go through withdrawal from her affair. So, I accepted that and could live with only a commitment to NC for now and not a commitment to us at that time. So, I asked again what is it this time? She said she wouldn’t do one without the other, meaning commitment to NC and working on us. I said in that case, I would prefer you to stay, but you are free to stay over there if you would like, it would not upset me. She decided to stay.

A few days after the ultimatum I asked when she was planning to send the NC letter. She said she already did the following day via email, then deleted the account (her secret online dating email address). She doesn’t know if he got it and hasn’t checked google voice where she would text him. I was displeased and reminded her I wanted to see the letter before she sent it. She said she didn’t remember that from our talk. I asked what did it say. She said it was 3 sentences. It said something like “I have decided to end this relationship for my family. We can have no further contact. I am sorry.”

I asked if she meant what she said about me that I make her cringe. She said there are a lot of past hurts that she hasn’t gotten past with me. She didn’t have those with the OM so she felt a lot of love towards them. I tried to reassure that it gets easier a month, 6 months, 1-2 years later. I asked for a plan for us and said that the first step was no contact so I appreciated she did that. I asked what she meant by telling him coming back was all calculated. I feared she was only here because of what happened on April 13th when OM3 came to our house and I read what she wrote that I was going to use it against her to try and take the kids. She said sometimes it was easier to just say what OM3 wanted to hear then to get in an argument. She said it was draining to text or have calls with him to discuss certain things. I asked if she liked all the constant contact and sexual talk. She said it was getting a little old always circling back to sex. She said she is much better able to verbalize now sexually, she didn’t know she had that in her before. She said she likes that occasionally to keep things interesting.

3 days ago I decided to look at her phone as she leaves it out now, not hiding it anymore. She has stuck to NC. However, there was a text to divorced BFF about OM3. W told her she was frustrated and crying the night before, then texted she missed him so damn much, wants to email him but doesn’t know what to say. Divorced BFF merely replied I’m sorry you’re sad. I’ve decided that I’m at a point in this sitch that if I see something that crosses my boundary, then I’m going to say something or act. No longer will I let it slide. I’m not going back to a life of living in an open marriage, never again.

I confronted W about it. I told her if she’s going through anything that’s difficult that I would like her to come to me. She said there’s nothing, that she hasn’t talked to BFFs about anything. I told her I’m sure it’s tough going through this and you haven’t been yourself lately. She said I’m fine in a very defensive tone. I told her I read that she’s sad and wanted to email him. She said you’re reading my $hit in a pissed off voice. She said that’s the first time she brought him up in a long time. I said you gave me your phone, I thought you were offering transparency. She said this is not the time, that I always come to her at the worst times, in the morning, at night, when she has to work. I asked when is a good time. She said she doesn’t know and left for an appointment. She was annoyed again that I looked through her phone. I guess transparency only matters when I’m ready to end things. I sent her the following texts “This $hit’s hard. I get it. Really hard to give something up that you were in love with. It will fade. Please come to me when you're struggling. We can do this together.” And “Honesty, transparency, and accountability are the building blocks. When you share with me how you're doing, it makes me feel more connected and it helps rebuild trust. I know you're trying your best. I hope you will feel more comfortable coming to me. If there's something I can do differently to help, please let me know.” She made no mention of this the rest of the day.

I will say she has been on her best behavior since. I think she needs to be reminded what she’s committed to and may not have the will power to do it on her own. This reminds me of when I met her and she was a smoker. I hated the smell and taste. She knew it was bad for her and I urged her to quit. She had several relapses and over the course of about 6 months was finally able to stop for good. I had to check in with her regularly to make sure she was sticking to quitting. Over coming her AP addiction is akin to this smoking analogy except several lives are impacted severely by her choices and I don’t know if she is strong enough for NC on her own.

My W’s affair fog clock was reset to zero. Now we’re 2 weeks into this latest stint of NC. Rather than sleep in the guest bedroom, W sleeps in D5’s room every night. She has about 5 sets of clothes here. The fish and all of her other clothes and belongings remain at the other house. There has been no marriage plan from her, nary a word about it. W does talk about some future plans and redecorating the house occasionally. W is also starting to distance herself from one of her two BFFs that was not a friend of our MR in my opinion. I was reading up on affair fog on another site and the author, a former WW, described how she tried to break it off with her AP over a dozen times! I think I’m up to her third attempt since she’s been living back in our house.

I realize that my W has been in love with at least 3 OM since the last time she loved me. I try to remind myself that it will take time for her to unwind these feelings through the withdrawal process. She must be asking herself what that meant to her and what does that mean for me and our MR if she allowed herself to choose them for so long. My WW really went off the deep end last summer. It was probably the first of her multiple rock bottoms. For those that remember, I took my kids for a 2 week vacation to California and when I returned, W wanted me to keep the kids every night for a few weeks. There are some things I read on her phone from that time period that confirm she was in a very dark place. She was coming to grips with the enormity of her choices and how toxic she was. I’m not going into more detail about that as she seems to have recovered from that low point.

My sitch continues. Per Steve85’s recommendation, I have a date set for myself where I need to see movement in the commitment to me and working on the MR. W is most definitely not on the same timeline as me, we’ll see if she gets there. On a positive note, I see the stability that has returned to my kid’s lives. They were so confused going back and forth between houses. The kids were my greatest motivation to stand for my MR during the worst of times. I’m grateful that I’ve reached this point where R could be a possibility.

Another super lengthy update...it’s kind of my trademark. Thank you all for the support!

Curtis, you are caught in a vortex...every time your sitch starts to come out of it, it gets sucked back in. I am about to get frank with you because I think you've made and continue to make a lot of mistakes.

First, the basis of all of this is a lack of respect. Your severely WW has no respect for you. NONE. All she has is a fear of losing what she has. She wants her cake and eat it too. What you are doing is forcing her to keep up appearances. For instance, you finally start standing up for yourself, put all of her stuff out, and as soon as she conjures up a few tears, acts remorseful, suddenly you are sucked right back in.

Second, you say action over words, but your update is full of taking her at her word. It really is sad. And then you choose words over action. Setting all of her stuff out to come get: actions = good. Talking for hours in the garage after she feigns remorse: words = bad. You really should look up hoosjim's threads. When his WW relapsed he took some severe steps. Stuck to them. Made her squirm for weeks. And her resolve to keep her family overcame all of the obstacles he had set in front of her. You started to take that action, then folded like a cheap suit. Imagine, telling her you didn't want to hear it, that the time for words was over. And then making her leave. Instead you let her stay, and within hours she is showing you more disrespect.

Third, BELIEVE nothing she says. As another poster asked, how do you know she left for an appointment? How do you know she sent the NC letter? How do you know she closed the secret email account? How do you know? How do you know? How do you know? YOU DON'T! Burner phones. Incognito mode in browsers. Etc. Even the text to BFF smacks of deception, and throwing you off the scent. While she knew you would be upset about seeing her message to BFF, it also would make you think she HADN'T contacted him! Sorry, but when my W stopped her EAs she went through major depression.....FOR DAYS. And that was merely an EA!!! To think she can flip that switch like this is naive.

Fourth, this is above both of you. There is no way either of you are equipped to navigate this. Where were your requirements for IC and MC? Where were your insisting that she do the work on herself. A NC which she then claimed to take care of herself? And claiming to have closed her secret account? And then the disrespect of "Oh, I don't remember you saying that" about wanting to approve the letter and be there when she sent it. And after all you've been through you fall for that crap?

And I see no DBing in your update. I see no GAL (yeah yeah, COVID, blah blah blah, LBSs will use any excuse, I have still GAL through the pandemic). I see no work on your 180s. Yeah some words about "my changes are permanent". WASs are much better at demanding action over words than LBSs. My WW didn't trust my changes for months. She will still occasionally test them just to see if I have really changed this time. And then I see no detachment. No self-differentiation. I see more holding on for dear life. More trying to manipulate and control her. And when she shortcuts it, no ramifications for her actions. Imagine if you ordered her out, the minute she said she had already sent the NC. "Sorry, I am not buying that. This is a violation of our agreement and I want you out of the house by 6pm tonight."

You texted her this:

H: “I am done being disrespected. Stay out of my life until you can break free of your addiction.”

And then you've put up with nothing but disrespect since.

One of the messages you intercepted was VERY telling:

Some of the messages said “this was calculated” referring to her staying here for the virus and backing away from him so that I would calm down after OM3 came to our house.

THIS IS EVERYTHING IN THE NUTSHELL HERE. She is calculating how to "keep you calm", manage you. Use her words to smooth things over..........You admit she made it 5 weeks no contact. Why? Because she knew she was going to reestablish it once you let your guard down again. There is nothing she is doing to suggest that this is not the case again. I bet she's even told OM3 "we have to wait for this to all blow over again".

I've told others this, but a friend of mine that cheated on her H told me that the one thing about people that want a cheat is that they will find a way....no matter the obstacles. If they want to cheat bad enough they will move mountains to make that happen.

As far as setting a date. Yeah, that is good....but you should have done this months ago! You are 3 OM in, and I can't even remember how long. It feels like it has been nearly 2 years that you have been dealing this this. curtis7 should have washed his hands of this and moved on a longtime ago. Because she knows if she turns on the waterworks, makes some token efforts, and vaguely hints at maybe eventually trying to work on things, you'll cave and let her walk all over you.

And she just did it again.................................

[SteveLW]

curtis, was going back through your original thread. Found this I wrote to you on 3/15/19.

"You are obviously watching every move she makes. "She pecked at her phone only to look up when our S was at bat". Come on man, you know she can tell you are watching her like a hawk. She knows you are still attached. She knows at anytime she could promise to make a couple of concessions and have you reattached to whatever level she wants you. Do you think that is worthy of respect?"

In context of your latest update this is EXACTLY what happened. Again.

[curtis7]

Hi Curtis,

WW came over and fed the horses.
...
She said there’s nothing, that she hasn’t talked to BFFs about anything.

I see. So, as of 3 days ago, she's still lying to you.

CW, yep that's right. She's still ambivalent and defiant.

She said she doesn’t know and left for an appointment.

How do you know where she went?

Well considering she was gone for an hour and a half and returned home with a hole drilled in her tooth and filling. I'm pretty sure she wasn't with OM3.

She never ever stopped being wayward - ever !. You just try and convince yourself otherwise.

She has gone through spurts of NC; however, I agree her thoughts and actions prove she has not stopped WW.

Again, read whats Sandi writes about genuine remorse and being humble.. This IS NOT remorse - Hence still wayward - arghh

Many have said, WW don't snap back. OM3 is a good man in her eyes. She's not going to be remorseful and humble until the fog clears and she lets go of the addiction. I don't know how long that could take, but NC is the first step to that ever being possible.

You really are intent on pain or are in la la land - like really - this is where you now stop posting for 4 weeks knowing the 2x4 will be coming your way - to then post again in July, posting a similar story again - and the horse will still be there as a lure to keep the WW around- God bless the horse..

You may be right that I may not post for a while which may indicate a return to WW, her extending an olive branch for the MR, or things remaining the same. Time will tell.

H: “Don't bother coming back.”
That’s all you needed to say.

Scout, succinct would have done it. She's not back for me. She's back either out of fear of telling the kids about her WW and/or losing her horse and lifestyle that is secure and comfortable.

Curtis, you are caught in a vortex...every time your sitch starts to come out of it, it gets sucked back in.

Steve, the vortex is a great way to put it. Like being on a roller coaster with a tractor beam.

First, the basis of all of this is a lack of respect. Your severely WW has no respect for you. NONE. All she has is a fear of losing what she has. She wants her cake and eat it too.

You say action over words, but your update is full of taking her at her word. It really is sad. And then you choose words over action. Setting all of her stuff out to come get: actions = good. Talking for hours in the garage after she feigns remorse: words = bad. You really should look up hoosjim's threads. When his WW relapsed he took some severe steps. Stuck to them. Made her squirm for weeks. And her resolve to keep her family overcame all of the obstacles he had set in front of her. You started to take that action, then folded like a cheap suit. Imagine, telling her you didn't want to hear it, that the time for words was over. And then making her leave. Instead you let her stay, and within hours she is showing you more disrespect.

You are right, I relented and gave in too easily. D5 witnessed some of that discussion in the driveway and I couldn't bring myself to send WW away. Even if D5 weren't there I still probably would have let your stay out of hope that she meant it this time. I agree with you and see zero respect. Life is full of should haves, I can't go back and change the way I responded and reacted. I'm much stronger than a year ago, if she wants to walkout or go back to him, I know I'll be fine, better than fine.

You admit she made it 5 weeks no contact. Why? Because she knew she was going to reestablish it once you let your guard down again. There is nothing she is doing to suggest that this is not the case again. I bet she's even told OM3 "we have to wait for this to all blow over again".

That is her internal battle. I've gotten stronger each time as we move closer to D. She knows the consequence of continued infidelity. I have made it clear that she will go this far and no farther.

One reason I posted this update was that I was hoping for some advice on whether to continue to be patient since her clock has reset or to lead her towards what I feel moves me closer to my goals...MR plan, MC, her moving her stuff out of the affair house, physical contact, etc. I don't know how to broach these topics and she seems content with limbo. I also don't want to pressure and be controlling while she is in A withdrawal. It's like a delicate balancing act. Thanks everyone for keeping up with me.

[SteveLW]

What I can tell you is that if she ever wants to R, no obstacle will stop her from trying. Until then, consider it all manipulation and further lying to get what she wants. That is why I suggested hoosjim's threads. Once he pulled the plug and his W knew he was serious, she was ready to jump through hoops of fire to get him back. You had one foot in that direction with setting her stuff out.

I think giving her a couple weeks and then telling her that this isn't working and she needs to pack everything and move to her apartment permanently, that you are done for good would be appropriate. Can you tell if she is really going through withdrawals from the A, or do you think she is sad and angry because she got caught...... Again?

[MrBrside]

One reason I posted this update was that I was hoping for some advice

But you never follow advice.

what I feel moves me closer to my goals...MR plan, MC, her moving her stuff out of the affair house, physical contact, etc.

You still don't grasp anything. You are where you were 18 months ago. You really are, but your focus is fix fix fix, - This sentence sums it up perfectly - What YOU want.. Youe wife does not want this. She is done with you, she probably doesnt love you and she does not want to be with you - and she has no respect for you. As both me and CW pointed out, you come over as controlling and you do not listen. This sentence above shows its all about you, and again shows that you only read what you want to read / what you feel helps you.

The best bit of advice is the SAME advice you have received for 18 months.
Detach, stop checking on her, let her go, get rid of the horse and GAL / do 180s.. But you will totally ignore this advice..

I don't know how to broach these topics and she seems content with limbo

You dont broach these topics.
1) - actions not words - and your actions always have a motive, but never a consequence. File and get rid of the horse - But you wont.
2) - limbo - She is in love with another Man - NOT you. She is cake eating galore. She does not love you, but wants the security / horse / kids / enviroment you provide - But does she want you - No, not at all - But this isnt what you want to hear, so you decide she is in limbo. She wants her AP, not you - drop the rope and let her go.. "please leave ( no ultamatums ) and collect / relocate the horse with in 7 days - goodbye.

I also don't want to pressure and be controlling while she is in A withdrawal. It's like a delicate balancing act.

She isnt in affair withdrawal and never has been ? Do you really think this - after everything you have read on the wayward mindset ?

Honestly - Please start back on Cadets welcome post Curtis.

[ovrrnbw]

Hey Curtis,

just DB. You're so worried about her, but you should be worried about Curtis 2.0. Put all that energy into you, you work, your GAL, your happiness, your growth.

You are trying to control, like the others said. You are right there in the middle of conflict with her instead of being the lighthouse...No more long talks, no more worrying about her, no more lies and garbage.

You need NC to find and heal yourself.

Drop the expectations, do what is attractive, etc. I could go on and on, but just do DB basics my man.

Good luck.