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#2896793 06/04/20 09:30 AM
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2859590&page=1

Been 2 years. Still standing but recently contemplating why I am still doing so. Was it due to the past memories or the person I used to know? Perhaps there was something within that still hope. I thought I was doing fine but after some drinks alone I weeped the day before.

But after I woke up I feel pretty fine again to move on. Certain nights I still dream of reconciliation and the good old times. But I just wake up and face reality wondering why does it happen. But well, can't look back and just keep looking forward.

Steve85, I tried to stay away from alcohol occasionally but I think the greatest success was about 5 days for me in recent times. Need to work on that as it affects my sleep as well which in turn gets into a vicious cycle. Need to find something to offload end of the day. Hopefully after this lock down period things will get better.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile


Steve85, I tried to stay away from alcohol occasionally but I think the greatest success was about 5 days for me in recent times. Need to work on that as it affects my sleep as well which in turn gets into a vicious cycle. Need to find something to offload end of the day. Hopefully after this lock down period things will get better.


This is a huge red flag. I would look into an AA group if I were you.


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Noted on that Steve.

I'll cold turkey on that from tomorrow. that's how I quit smoking too.

I just hope that I can cold turkey on my feelings on her though lol


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All I can tell you is that DBing is hard enough sober-minded. I no longer drank when I with through my sitch but there is no way I would be still married to my W today if I had been drinking because I would not have DB'd well.


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Thanks for sharing on that Steve.

Intending to put down the cup today via cold turkey to break the drinking cycle.

I will wake up every morning feeling bad about the drinks I had but once when it passed noon, I'll crave for a couple of cans to make me relax. Not quite to ease the pain as I don't feel much but well just something to look forward to which make me happier and relaxed.

Also, it's kinda awkward to be around with her in the house after finishing work thus I am looking at going out for some personal space and breather. That's kind of the thoughts nowadays.

For her, sometimes she's ok with me by talking nicely and asking opinions but most of the time is still rude tone with an attitude which, I just don't let it affect me. Either by tell her she does not have to talk to me like that or just leave the conversation and not engaging her.


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Had kinda the talk with the wife this morning.

As our domestic helper tenure is expiring, I intend to renew her contract and told the wife that there will be salary increment for the helper and if she has any opinion as it still comes from our joint expenses.

She mentioned to me that we have yet resolve and are proceeding with the D. What will happen then? I told her well, if she like to proceed with the D, by all means go ahead. Eventually when everything transpire, I will see if to retain the helper or transfer her.

Wife then try to approach and suggest to me that perhaps we should share the helper thereafter. couple of days with me then couple of days with her when the children goes over.

Then I told her my intention with regards to the caregiving of the children. I told her that she can has visitation anytime she wants, but I do not agree with the overnight and overseas access. This was due to how she was handling the children previously which lead to the episode which my elder boy trying to kill himself.

Then it escalated from there. That I am denying her rights to the children, she was being nice to give me time to think about the divorce but yet I came up with such things, ada ada. I got kinda worked up and replied her on why I came to such decision. I reminded her on how she claimed she does not want the children when the bomb was dropped, her antics of being away and not being there. If she would like to challenge my decision, by all means. we will resolve everything through our lawyers and I will accept any judgement being passed, even if it meant me losing all custody or caregiving rights.

Then she burst into tears and start claiming which mother intends to give up the children and such and bring up all the past issues to defend herself or conveniently forgetting about her actions through this period to her advantage. With the crux of everything her previous EA but listing everything I done wrong and fault finding.

I told her, look. We are not divorce now so still at times, I do feel some responsibilities towards u and this family. If the papers are signed, I don't think I would even keep you as a friend. You would be the mother of my children but I do not wish to keep any relationship with you. You had been doing everything the way you wanted it and never thought of the effect it causes to others. I am telling you now, this is the outcome. And I know this outcome since the bomb dropped that how it will affect all of us.

I will have to look after the interest of the kids and myself and hers no more. Then she burst into tears again, talking about the past, like how "unavailable" I was to her, I never paid attention to her needs and she could not get my attention... I told her. What you wanted, you could at least communicated and get the point across. not just telling to everyone than me, then later you explode and cast the axe on everything.

I told her that I know her heart is shut now. No matter what I do or say, will not get into her. And she would even ridicule me on the effort I put in for the family. She tried to defend herself on this. I told her to go dig out what she wrote when I was running the chores and spending time with the kids. What kind of remarks she ridiculed me for that.

Told her I acknowledged her feelings. No fault of her feeling this way that she is now but then again it does not mean because she is feeling this way, her actions are right. Just this morning, she told me she wanted to throw away a sofa in the study because she got herself a new bed frame to sleep in there. I told her, you should have at least consulted. She then said that she already intended to throw the sofa away. Which I replied, the sofa does not belongs to you only. But this portion, I said in a calm tone.

The morning conversation caused me to teared as well. The sadness just surge upon me all of the sudden as I told her. I am not saying all these to smoother or to retain her. I know my voice and feelings will not reach her heart anyway. So she can just proceed with the divorce but, I am taking the stand to do what I think is right for the children and myself.

And although she can deny the reality in front of her, she would not know my feelings for her as her personal issues blinded her to me and it's always the person who is the closest took the greatest hit. Then, she had to leave because she is being late to conduct examinations for her students and our conversation just ended there.

Thereafter, I just dropped her a message telling her that, how everyone was concerned about her especially on her health and physical well being after she went on the path of recommended medication over these 2 years course by different practitioners and how frail she had become compare to how she looks like in the picture we took 2 years ago.

She replied yeah because she had to take care of her health as age is catching up. Then she thanked me for sharing my feelings in the morning. I told her that, well, I do not know if it would even reach her because it always seems she could not receive my intent from my actions.



It's such a long day. But no matter how it is meant to be, I have to carry on with my decision down that path...


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ToSmile, remember. Listen and validate. Listening and validating doesn't mean you agree with her, just that you understand how she feels.

Get ready for a fight now. You played your hand way to early. As she processes this conversation she will probably become more and more angry. And will now fight for 50/50 custody. Unless you have solid evidence of abuse or neglect, she is likely to get it. So lawyer up.

These kinds of discussions rarely, if ever, result in positive outcomes. That is why we say to avoid them.

Go read the validation thread.

Also on things like her proposal: "Wife then try to approach and suggest to me that perhaps we should share the helper thereafter. couple of days with me then couple of days with her when the children goes over." Feel free to deflect. "Hmmm, I'll need some time to consider that."

Then listen and validate.


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Hi Steve,

Roger that on the validation part. Not enough detachment on my side perhaps due to this quarantine period and the slight improvement of attitude she has towards me.

When it comes to such situation and see her breaking down in tears, I'll just somewhat get engaged. From yesterday session, she admitted that there was a major instance which she knew it was not my fault but she's angry with me because she is giving herself a closure.

On that, I told her I understand how you feel although I do not think it is right to attribute to me. But I can't deny because these are your feelings and its real to you.

Other than that, it's kinda replay again but glad things stopped. But yesterday night, there was another bigger episode. Due to the wife's absence most of the time previously, my domestic helper kinda felt she had "risen through the ranks" as the primary care taker of the household. The original arrangement was that as we are staying quite near to our parents, my mother will supervise her and the chores when we are away. But recently, my mother could not be around due to her undergoing an operation and the helper was running the show.

So yesterday, because of my mother falsely blamed my helper of a small matter, the helper broke down and causes another round of hoo haaa in the evening. So the helper starts to claim that she's not good for us and wish to stop her service. The misunderstanding stems from a request from my wife on how certain things are to be done and it was not fulfilled.

At this timing, if the helper stops her service, its gonna create a big impact on our daily logistics and arrangement too. Then, I turned around and told my wife. Look. Now it's gonna be very difficult to get a new helper. And if the helper not gonna get over it and make peace, things gonna get pretty messy and troublesome. You may want to address this. She seems abit taken aback and interested in the whole situation (because previously I had been dealing with all these problems and resolving them).

I told her, this is trivia matter and end day, it's woman's problem. But its what I had been handling and keeping the peace here where u don't see it. But I think it would be good if you can help too. This kinda totally got her into the situation and soften abit overall.

But it was really a tiring day. I told my helper to just take a break today and tomorrow. Go relax herself as the quarantine order has been lifted. And I also told my wife that these 2 days had been bad. So I am intending to take the kids and family out for dinner this evening to brighten up everyone's mood. I just leave it at that to see if she like to join if not we would just go ahead.

For next on now, I think I should drill into the validations....


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
But it was really a tiring day. I told my helper to just take a break today and tomorrow. Go relax herself as the quarantine order has been lifted. And I also told my wife that these 2 days had been bad. So I am intending to take the kids and family out for dinner this evening to brighten up everyone's mood. I just leave it at that to see if she like to join if not we would just go ahead.



It certain situations this is the right move. In yours, I don't agree with this approach. This is you allowing pressure and pursuit and running down cheeseless tunnels.

You should have said nothing to her, collected the kids and taken them to dinner.


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It's been awhile and hope that everyone is doing fine out that amid this Global Pandemic.

For my journey, it has been coming to 2 years and recently, I am also re-looking at the entire situation if I am still standing, or had I got used to this new norm or I have let it go totally.

We had the arrangement with my parents being the day caretaker of the kids when we are at work. this had been a arrangement we had for coming to a decade since our firstborn and also the reason why we moved closed to my parents. However recently, she had seen my parents support as a form of intrusion instead of the great help they had been rendering and suggested to stop them from coming over and leave the kids to the helper to handle. She will also take care of the necessary grocery matters that was previously handled by my parents. I told her fine, and let her have her way. We would be more than happy if she could step up in all these roles that she had never been actively involved in all these years.

So my parents stopped coming over. kids missing the grandparents during the day and only get to us when we return in the evening. She would claim that when my parents are here, our grocery bills went up due to higher consumption. But now as she is managing the buying, everything was not enough and even the meals she tasked the helper to cook was barely enough to feed the family for a meal. I am not sure if she is trying to prove that she is more prudent or she is right that without my parents, she can bring the expenses down but I am not getting involved in that. As like when she was supposed to get a week's worth of grocery during the weekends, she only bought back 2 days worth and leave everything at that. For now, I just step up the purchase as I worried the kids would have nothing during lunch. But on second thoughts, I feel I should leave it at that as she wish to manage.

I have been looking for a new property as the current home is depreciating. The current home is bought through our joint names and if we would to get a new property of similar nature, we have to dispose of the existing one first. There is a rare unit available in the market now which I had put up the option for it. It has great investment value and would be a huge pity to missed. She told me to hold back the interest first as we had issues (Divorce) that are not settled and she does not wish to complicate the process. I told her during these period, I had missed out much of such investment opportunities which I would hope to pass on to the children and I am not going to miss it this round. Be it the outcome if our interest can be accepted, then we decide if we are to go ahead with the purchase or to forego it. If we are separated, I'll carry on the investment myself. She then changed the topic.

These 2 months been rather calm except a certain episode a few days ago. Both of us had to work late and requested our parents to came over to accompany the children at night. Then my mum did something to her dislike. She discovered the next day, messaged me and started all her complaints. She started to bring up past issues with my parents, issues which I was the one who couldn't let go about then and she told me to chill over. Also issues which she had with my parents which I wanted to pursue for a resolution and she said it's fine, don't need to. And now, she is bring them up item by item. I told her I understand how she felt, and sometimes it's too much and just try to validate her messages. But I also reminded her that she was the one who mentioned to let it go then, why bringing all these up now?

On my end, I just withdraw all the attention on her. She's sleeping in the guest room now. I'm not asking where she's going or what. Nor what she is doing. When we have family events and going out for dinner, I'll just casually ask if she likes to join (Kids would ask why she isn't joining). If she doesn't we'll just go ahead. One thing I do note that she seldom have late nights out now days but she would go out for short periods during the day during the weekends. And ever since my parents stopped coming over, she's returning home more frequently for dinner.

One interesting thing that I discovered when chatting with my kids recently was, they told me that their mum told them she used to loved me alot as I was always there for her and helping her. But it's no longer the same when we quarrel. And also, she's re-writing history again. She was the one who wanted to buy the dog we are having now 2 years ago. But because of the responsibilities, now she's telling the children I was the one who wanted the dog and bought it????

It's really a marathon. I do not see the end in sight. And I am also not thinking about it. On some days when I have a drink to chill, I actually do have thoughts that perhaps separation would be a liberation for me. Why do I had to be treated this way by her and also being given such treatment and attitude when I am not the one that messed up in that manner here? I do feel that my helper takes even greater care of the children, the dog, and more concern of our well being than her. Perhaps such realization helps me to face her easier. That she's fading to become a stranger the the person I knew. That's what she mentioned when I question her behavior couple of days ago when she made a very crazy statement that it doesn't matter how I view her anymore. I told her well that is just my opinion as a fellow human being and she can just take it or drop it. Nothing more.

I still do feel for her but is time wearing everything out? Will there be the possibility to reconcile with her finally walking out of the fog? I really can't imagine how it would be given how firm she is over this duration to leave this marriage even though till date, what I received was only the draft by her lawyer's assistant in June last year. It's kinda a standstill situation here and recently, I am starting to think of change. I want to do something more with life than being stuck in this situation.


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Wow. Tosmile welcome back, but boy are you foundering. You are like a disabled ship that hasn't sunk yet, but is no longer moving either. You appear to be drifting in the current, with no clear direction.

I see above a failed attempt to listen and validate. "I told her I understand how she felt, and sometimes it's too much and just try to validate her messages. But I also reminded her that she was the one who mentioned to let it go then, why bringing all these up now?"

I see a lot of capitulation. On buying the other house. On having your parents care for the kids. On getting a dog (did you really agree to get a dog right after BD?!?). I do not see a lot of behavior on your part that is commanding respect. It is as if you are trying to nice her back. To quote one of the most wise posters on this board: YOU CANNOT NICE HER BACK!! Look what happens when you give in to her? She blames you: "She was the one who wanted to buy the dog we are having now 2 years ago. But because of the responsibilities, now she's telling the children I was the one who wanted the dog and bought it????" How's that capitulation working out for you?

Where is your GAL? I do not see any mention of you going out and doing things. I see you sitting home, watching her like a hawk. "One thing I do note that she seldom have late nights out now days but she would go out for short periods during the day during the weekends. And ever since my parents stopped coming over, she's returning home more frequently for dinner." How is noting her behavior helping your situation? Do you think watching her like this makes you more or less detached?

Tosmile, you also are expressing a feeling of being stuck. And you are! (See ship analogy above.) So what are YOUR plans? I see you mentioning her draft and that nothing else has been done. You are like a man with your head in a guillotine waiting for the blade to drop. What an awful place to be in!

So, it has been two years. Do you want to be here, in this same place, probably with even more capitulation to her, in another two years? I highly suggest you set a date. "On 7/18/2021, if she still isn't fully committed back to the marriage, then I will go hire my own lawyer and file for divorce." Tosmile, your last post makes me sad. It shows me a man that has been completely emasculated because he is afraid. Fear will cause you to do the wrong things, to be stuck, to continue to be unattractive to your STBXW (can you say lack of respect?).

So, what are you going to do? Forget her. Forget trying to save the marriage. What are you going to do to save yourself? What are you going to do to teach your kids that it is not okay for them to be abused the way you have been for the last two years? What if you were one of your kids, and she was one of their spouses? Would you want them to tolerate what you've been tolerating?


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Hi Steve,

Thanks for your reply, something to shake me awake more too.

What I had been doing this period was:

1. Continue going out as and when, and skipping going over to her place to dine with my in laws when I do not feel like to
2. Keeping up with my exercising routine
3. Get things that I like and splurge on myself
4. Stopped sharing ride to work in the morning as I noted the day starts better for me that way then being on a journey with her

Her behavior was something that I noted recently which have affected my detachment I supposed. I would have thought that things might be improving and thus sub-consciously starts being nice although I keep reminding myself of the analogy that she is in the castle and I am out there having a picnic and ignore her until she get out of the bridge and get close herself.

On the Dog part, yeah, it was just after BD back then and I was thinking of giving it in to her if she wish to have one because she loves dogs. But then over time I note that its she loves dog but not taking care of dog which now the dog is mostly the responsibility of the Helper and she painted the impression to the kids that I am the one who wanted the dog. This is also because she had been telling the kids they have responsibility over the dog to take care of it as well (Clearing it's poo and pee) but when when the kids questioned her back on her responsibility, she claims I am the one who wanted the dog.

And indeed, I am afraid. I am actually quite worry for my children on how they may react. I know that sandi post had mentioned before that some LBS may use children as an excuse to indeed take that step but this hesitation crossed my mind again last week when I was casually chatting with my son and he mentioned that are we separating? They would not want us to separate. Thus, this was a big part that is affecting me and I am looking for to understand more of what he really things when the counselling session for them resumes next week (it was halted due to the pandemic) that I would like to find out from a third party how they are really taking this. As both chaps are very sensitive and they seldom portray their real emotions for worries of being a burden or hurting someone.

The thoughts did come to my mind. Setting a deadline. If by that date and it's still such nonsense, we'll just call it a day with me taking the initiative. But it just stopped at that when my thoughts switched back to the 2 kids. I have also considered that it is an unhealthy situation that what kind of understanding they are getting for a marriage to be watching us as examples. I will have to set my foot down...


Last edited by ToSmile; 08/20/20 09:09 AM.

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TS,

So I just went back and read your opening thread and I think it's really time to think about what your standing for and what you want out of the second half of your life. Your W is a kook who doesn't respect you or marriage.

I know you you are worried about your children but the truth is that they will be better with a normal and stable parent 50% of the time. It will likely be many, many years if ever that you see a reappearance of your old wife.

You make mention of your W being like Wolf's wife well the is about the bottom of the barrel for WWs.

Show your children what a strong male looks like.

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Hi LH,

Yes you are right. The last thing I want is also my Sons to think/feel that this is how a marriage should be and how a wife behaves to her husband.

She can live her life but to respect the boundaries while I stood. But then, the reconciliation window is closing and to be frankly, it's a matter of time I'll just proceed to serve. I can feel it. Just to get my ducks together.

One thing I indeed cannot accept is her disrespectful behavior which she portray indirectly through physical and verbal cues. I don't owe her that.


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Half a year pass by since my previous post and hope everyone's good during this trying Covid times.

For this half year, I had been minding my own business, work out, focus on the kids, but reduce in going out and get a life as most weekends the kids are with me and I just spend my time accompanying them.

She remain staying in the study room and carry on with her own routine. Less in Feb this year, she invited a friend whom she claimed she had discontinued contact with to our place that crossed my boundaries. This friend of hers was someone whom supported her EA back and I confronted my wife about it. She claimed that she invited her as she felt she was not an involved party but I made my stand to her. Such person are not welcomed.

Then things went back to "norm" and in March I celebrated her birthday with the kids.

And yesterday, her mom's best friend passed away and she went over to accompanied her mom as she was very affected by it. After she's back in the evening, she proceed to crusade about the divorced again. She laid out 2 options to me. Either we carry on status quo, and divorce years later when the kids grow up, or we divorce and stay under the same roof and bring the kids up together.

I told her, she had always been making plans about divorce and thought that everything will end up according to her game plan. What makes her think I would still want to stay with her after we divorce? I've got to move on. I got to have my own life. I ain't gonna be still standing here anymore. But, I am not stopping her to proceed. I understand what she wants and she can just serve the letter to my lawyer.

She keep saying that she want a divorce with me to put a closure to our relationship and after that she can talk to me normally like a friend. Then she claims that I am stopping the divorce as I am not allowing overnight access of kids to her and taking the kids away from her than we originally agreed on shared access. I told her I came to that conclusion as she had emotionally threatened my kid till he almost killed himself and thus, I am standing firm on this.

I told her if she really want to divorce, just serve to my lawyer. She then claim she had done so previously which I mentioned I had not receive any notification from my lawyer? Then she said it was the draft that was prepared by her lawyer's admin that she emailed to me. I told her please, just forward the proper version to my lawyer and not something by someone unqualified which I could draft even better than.

Next she start to bring out all the nonsense form the past again which I got so tired of and after some minor exchange with her, I told her I am tired. Just wish to rest on a positive mood and these exchanges are pointless. Before she left the room, she asked me so what is the conclusion of this talk? I told her I leave it to her. Then she mentioned that our counsellor offered to mediate for our divorce if we need her to and walked out.

The reason I post this after a while is because:

1. Got to be frank I am slightly affected by the session last night as such talks are draining. Need to get it off the chest.

2. I am not feeling as bad as I was before and focus that I have to be strong

3. It becomes more and more clear to me over the days how freaking selfish she is (which WAWs are anyway)

4. Feeling kinda ridiculous that she expects me to adhere to her playbook and plan even after we divorce

5. Felt the exasperation in her when she felt that I am not in her control

6. Well if she's gonna serve, I gonna sign and move on. Ain't looking back anymore. I am one when I am in relationship, I stay committed and give it my all. But once I move on, that's it. I can't phantom being around with someone in that manner. Then it would be my turn finding it hard to breath.

7. I just don't like the way she play nice in front of me to the kids. I know and was told by my helper too that when I am not around, the kids got it rough from her. But when I am around, she became so engaged with them. But for this portion, I leave it to the kids to see through their mom. What I can do is to arrange for more counselling for them in the meantime to prep them better.

8. I also note that she had an enabling mother that's not making the situation matter encouraging her on in funny ways.

9. She is still in a mess. just like recently she got into several accidents and instead of reflecting on her carelessness, the blame is on the car and she wanted to sell the car away and get a new one. Like how it is for family as well?

10. I just need some support and peace. Have not reach out for a while. Am also planning a weekend out with friends as she will be bringing the kids for staycation.

But the rope in my hand has dropped. I may wept for the past, but I have to smile for the future.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Less in Feb this year, she invited a friend whom she claimed she had discontinued contact with to our place that crossed my boundaries. This friend of hers was someone whom supported her EA back and I confronted my wife about it. She claimed that she invited her as she felt she was not an involved party but I made my stand to her. Such person are not welcomed.

So this sounds more controlling then a boundary. So what were the consequences of her crossing that boundary?
Originally Posted by ToSmile
Then things went back to "norm" and in March I celebrated her birthday with the kids.

Cake eating so I assume she enjoyed the cake.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
She laid out 2 options to me. Either we carry on status quo, and divorce years later when the kids grow up, or we divorce and stay under the same roof and bring the kids up together.

Sorry W but neither of thos options work for me.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
I've got to move on. I got to have my own life.

I agree!
Originally Posted by ToSmile
I ain't gonna be still standing here anymore.

So what is your plan?
Originally Posted by ToSmile
She keep saying that she want a divorce with me to put a closure to our relationship and after that she can talk to me normally like a friend. Then she claims that I am stopping the divorce as I am not allowing overnight access of kids to her and taking the kids away from her than we originally agreed on shared access. I told her I came to that conclusion as she had emotionally threatened my kid till he almost killed himself and thus, I am standing firm on this.

I am confused by what you mean.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
I told her if she really want to divorce, just serve to my lawyer. She then claim she had done so previously which I mentioned I had not receive any notification from my lawyer? Then she said it was the draft that was prepared by her lawyer's admin that she emailed to me. I told her please, just forward the proper version to my lawyer and not something by someone unqualified which I could draft even better than.

This sounds like a useless conversation
Originally Posted by ToSmile
Next she start to bring out all the nonsense form the past again which I got so tired of and after some minor exchange with her, I told her I am tired. Just wish to rest on a positive mood and these exchanges are pointless. Before she left the room, she asked me so what is the conclusion of this talk? I told her I leave it to her. Then she mentioned that our counsellor offered to mediate for our divorce if we need her to and walked out.

This sounds like a useless conversation

TS your situation sounds horrible and I think it may be time for you to push the D through or separate. IHS is brutal and soul sucking and it sounds like it is taking it's toll on you.

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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Half a year pass by since my previous post and hope everyone's good during this trying Covid times.

For this half year, I had been minding my own business, work out, focus on the kids, but reduce in going out and get a life as most weekends the kids are with me and I just spend my time accompanying them.

She remain staying in the study room and carry on with her own routine. Less in Feb this year, she invited a friend whom she claimed she had discontinued contact with to our place that crossed my boundaries. This friend of hers was someone whom supported her EA back and I confronted my wife about it. She claimed that she invited her as she felt she was not an involved party but I made my stand to her. Such person are not welcomed.

Then things went back to "norm" and in March I celebrated her birthday with the kids.

And yesterday, her mom's best friend passed away and she went over to accompanied her mom as she was very affected by it. After she's back in the evening, she proceed to crusade about the divorced again. She laid out 2 options to me. Either we carry on status quo, and divorce years later when the kids grow up, or we divorce and stay under the same roof and bring the kids up together.

I told her, she had always been making plans about divorce and thought that everything will end up according to her game plan. What makes her think I would still want to stay with her after we divorce? I've got to move on. I got to have my own life. I ain't gonna be still standing here anymore. But, I am not stopping her to proceed. I understand what she wants and she can just serve the letter to my lawyer.

She keep saying that she want a divorce with me to put a closure to our relationship and after that she can talk to me normally like a friend. Then she claims that I am stopping the divorce as I am not allowing overnight access of kids to her and taking the kids away from her than we originally agreed on shared access. I told her I came to that conclusion as she had emotionally threatened my kid till he almost killed himself and thus, I am standing firm on this.

I told her if she really want to divorce, just serve to my lawyer. She then claim she had done so previously which I mentioned I had not receive any notification from my lawyer? Then she said it was the draft that was prepared by her lawyer's admin that she emailed to me. I told her please, just forward the proper version to my lawyer and not something by someone unqualified which I could draft even better than.

Next she start to bring out all the nonsense form the past again which I got so tired of and after some minor exchange with her, I told her I am tired. Just wish to rest on a positive mood and these exchanges are pointless. Before she left the room, she asked me so what is the conclusion of this talk? I told her I leave it to her. Then she mentioned that our counsellor offered to mediate for our divorce if we need her to and walked out.

The reason I post this after a while is because:

1. Got to be frank I am slightly affected by the session last night as such talks are draining. Need to get it off the chest.

2. I am not feeling as bad as I was before and focus that I have to be strong

3. It becomes more and more clear to me over the days how freaking selfish she is (which WAWs are anyway)

4. Feeling kinda ridiculous that she expects me to adhere to her playbook and plan even after we divorce

5. Felt the exasperation in her when she felt that I am not in her control

6. Well if she's gonna serve, I gonna sign and move on. Ain't looking back anymore. I am one when I am in relationship, I stay committed and give it my all. But once I move on, that's it. I can't phantom being around with someone in that manner. Then it would be my turn finding it hard to breath.

7. I just don't like the way she play nice in front of me to the kids. I know and was told by my helper too that when I am not around, the kids got it rough from her. But when I am around, she became so engaged with them. But for this portion, I leave it to the kids to see through their mom. What I can do is to arrange for more counselling for them in the meantime to prep them better.

8. I also note that she had an enabling mother that's not making the situation matter encouraging her on in funny ways.

9. She is still in a mess. just like recently she got into several accidents and instead of reflecting on her carelessness, the blame is on the car and she wanted to sell the car away and get a new one. Like how it is for family as well?

10. I just need some support and peace. Have not reach out for a while. Am also planning a weekend out with friends as she will be bringing the kids for staycation.

But the rope in my hand has dropped. I may wept for the past, but I have to smile for the future.



Tosmile, welcome back. Sorry you are still dealing with this. Unfortunately, I think you thought time would change her mind and it hasn't. What we know from your post is:

- She still wants a D
- She is still too lazy to make the D happen on her own
- She has some crazy post-D fantasies (Living together after D??!?)

Before I say what I think you should do, just a small 2x4 on the "boundary" with the friend. Boundaries are very misunderstood by LBSs, especially LBHs. Your boundary is more about controlling her, than taking action yourself.

Your boundary is: Friend cannot come to house.

What your boundary should look like is: Friend is not welcome to house. If friend comes over, or is invited by STBXW, I will take the kids and leave until she is no longer at the house.

Boundary setting is about setting the boundary: "Friend not welcome at house." Followed by YOUR action if boundary is crossed: "I will take the kids and leave until friend is no longer at the house."

Your boundary is about controlling her. The boundary should be about controlling you!

Okay, so here is what I think you should do:

At this point you have stood for your marriage for quite a while. No one could look at you ToSmile and say you haven't done everything you could to save your marriage. I am not a proponent of limbo going on indefinitely. In my own sitch I set a dropdead date. One year past BD, if she wasn't fully committed back to the marriage, I would go file myself.

At this point I would highly suggest you set such a date. She has shown that she is all talk and no action. She wants you to do the work of the D. During the limbo period it is not advisable for you to push the D forward, but as stated above that should not remain open-ended. As you said you have a life to live, you need to move forward at some point.

So when your dropdead date comes (or if it is already here or past), then I suggest you either:

1. Take her up on the offer to let counselor mediate a D settlement. This has the benefit of letting you express to her that things like living together after Dis not an option. WASs, and WSs in particular, love to try to have their cake and eat it too. Her efforts to get you to agree to this arrangement let's her continue to play house, while freeing her to go play the field as a single woman. I do not blame you one bit for not wanting that!

2. Go and file for D yourself, and work out details of the D settlement with your lawyer before presenting it to her. This is advantageous in that either a) she will be too lazy to fight it and just accept the settlement as presented, or b) be forced to hire her own proper lawyer to look over the settelement and work with your lawyer on a compromise.

The nice thing about both approaches is that 50/50 child custody can be established and post-D living arrangements could be settled out.

ToSmile, one word of caution, often times faced with the daunting task of post-D child swaps and finding suitable lodging, WASs/WSs will opt to remain married. Not because they want to stay and be your spouse, but because the alternative is too difficult. So they will see staying in the marriage (for now) as the lesser of the two evils. The problem is that if you agree to that then you will be right back into your limbo you find yourself now. You won't prevent the D, you'll just postpone it, since the WSs is still looking for their plan A.

I would caution you that once your dropdead date is reached that you do not succumb to the WS trying to "stay married out of convenience". Once that dropdead date is hit, you move forward with your life without regret. Do not settle for being someone's Plan B!

ToSmile, hope this helps. You have been very patient with her and with your sitch. The question you have to ask yourself, as the age of 40 approaches is: "How much more of your life do you want to waste waiting for someone that doesn't want to be with you?"


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Ok maybe it's that I'm close in age to you guys. Maybe it's because I was a WW in my first MR. Maybe it's because I haven't read you're whole sitch, but I'm sorry your W sounds certifiable. Like legitimately in need of a Dx and some therapy and Rx. What is the point of her being in the house with you 6 months ago, now, or post divorce? The access to the kids thing is BS. I don't buy it for a second.

I stuck it in the house with my exH for a long time sleeping in separate bedrooms because I legitimately couldn't afford to leave, and he went out of his way to make sure I couldn't. But I also didn't spend my years there repeatedly telling him I was going to leave and then just never did. I truly thought until the very last year I was there that things would turn around that he'd finally agree to counseling or make an effort on his own, that my changes would some how jog him into a desire to follow suit. And I was the WW, whom he begged to come back.

With my current H it was a money thing too. Honestly I think if I had relinquished control of my half of the funds or hadn't been paying attention to our accounts I'm sure he would've tapped us out to try to move on with his life. Thankfully I learned my lesson with the first H and the universe had other plans. The flip side of that was 5 months into his crap I wanted him out just as much if not more than he wanted out. I don't understand how you're so far along here and haven't filed, with a motion over the dwelling to get her out. Not saying you need to be me, but most people here know I was desperate to keep my home in one piece, but I had papers drawn up the day after he said he wanted a D and to move out. I never had them served, but I was ready.

The kids are young, man. The sooner you can rip this bandaid off the better it is for everyone especially them. D18 when she was little asked me to leave her dad often. Even now she says she wishes I would've gotten us out sooner.

Why are you doing this? Why are you hanging on? Why are you just remaining stagnant on this?

I get that not every LBS is ingrained with the same childhood trauma I am so my instinct for self preservation is much more prevalent than others, but seriously, at no point here have you thought maybe it's best for me and the kids if I just do this and save us from all the chaos and turmoil W is putting us through?

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LH, Steve,

Nice to hear from you'll and hi there wayfarer.

With regards her asking the friend over, My boundaries were I would be chasing them away if she is to come again as I thought that this is my house and would not entertain unwelcomed visitors. The thoughts of me leaving when the friend is here seems like I am giving way to her?

Yes indeed. The conversations are all useless and getting to nowhere. Thus I ended them and told her I am tired and would want to turn in. I realized that recently whenever she initiated these talks, it's all going no where and end up at the same point again. The observation of her being lazy in making the Divorce happen is right. She had been talking about this matter and I do not see what's the difficulty of her instructing her lawyer to just send the filing to my lawyer? Even my domestic helper told me that She's all full of talk but can't materialize anything.

And now her claims is like I am trying to "take the children away from her" because I don't agree to release them for overnight with her in justification of the non-action? I told her before, if there are any disagreement, we can just address it in the courts or what. I don't want to be similar to a friend of mine whom WAW screwed him up, got him kicked out of the matrimonial house, denied him access and wiped his bank account dry because he was not represented and too trusting to just sign the documents presented to him.

I agree she needs therapy. Helper also told me that my wife was sighing the night away not sleeping after the conversation. And like said, I would not agree to either of her options because it's best of both world for her. It's like she wants the divorce, but yet expect things to be in the manner she hope to be. Like remaining as good friends? I told her I am your husband. Now you want me to be your good friend? I would not even feel like seeing you anymore unnecessarily for goodness sake.

I come to realization that very likely if Divorce is to happen, I will be the person to push through. Actually a timeline I had set internally for myself, if things stay status quo and she does not try to be funny or treat me without respect would be another 3 years.

Why so? I link this to the 2-5 years estimated out of the fog timeline for MLC, if she also happens to have it. Another note is that by then, the kids will be bigger and much able to fend for themselves if she goes ape [censored] on them. They are my primary concern because yesterday morning while sending them to school, I had a casual conversation with them asking how they would feel if me and my wife separate but we still be around for them? They both replied sadly that they do not want that to happen with the younger one at the verge of tears. Thus that is the most anchoring factor for me. I do know that the argument is also that we have to let them go through this and it may be better for them. However every as and when I see their reaction like this I just thought to hold on a bit more if things would be better as long as she does not cross my line.

Thus I try to live as I am already divorced and my weekends is always about spending time with the kids and bringing them out myself while she goes on with her life. Actually things are going fine until once in a while she will come with this "Lets talk about it, Lets have a closure". Geez.


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The problem with the "it's my house" thing is that it is her house too. So technically she can have her friend over even if you don't like her friend. But I guess asking them to leave is a way to try to handle it, but if she refuses then you could have an escalation on your hands.

As far as three years waiting, wow. That's a long time. Life is too short, in my opinion, to wait for someone that long. MLC fog can last the rest of her life. In fact, some MLCs aren't MLCs at all, they are a complete change of who someone is. They become the person that they are permanently. But it your life, so if that's how long you want to wait, so be it.

I applaud you putting your kids first. But remember this, kids would rather be from a broken home than in a broken home.


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Yeah the part with regards to the house, I understand things may escalate if I chase them away but if she gonna tune up the heat then let that be the trigger for me to proceed.

I did ask her if she ever thought how I would feel about it when she invited that person over? She mentioned no and claimed that friend was not in the picture. I reminded to her if she had forgotten the role of this friend whom was trying to matchmake? Then I told her if it was unintentional, I let it slide this time round but this is my boundary and do not cross it.

Yes I do note that there is a potential that her change would be permanent. I also asked myself if I am ready to move on with another person after I close this chapter? For a while, I think the answer to myself is always no. Because I kinda feel sick about it and could not quite bring myself to go through everything again. I'm pretty happy to have my kids already and I think I am good to be on my own.

I also monitor my kids happiness very closely. The arrangement will only be as above as long as my kids are happy in current environment and does not affect them. I also arranged counselling for them and check in time to time with the counsellors and my helper for third party feedback of their emotional well being.

So far I know, the feedback kind of consistent. From counsellors, the siblings are very close with each other, me and their grandparents. Mum came last. With helper, the elder one always complaint that when mum is around, she always task him around and he does not like her around. They felt that when she was there, they are always being reprimanded for anything.

She has a habit of tasking them something and just leaving it to them without walking them through, knowing it's disaster to happen. Thereafter when they screw it up, then she started reprimanding them. And when talking to her about it, her defense always is this was how her mum taught her last time. But she never seem to excel in any of those skills anyway even though she always claimed this was how she's taught and its the right way. Ie: Just passing the knife to the kids and asking them to peel potato skins without demo. I warned they would cut themselves. She mentioned it's ok. Ended up cutting themselves. Asking them to cut chili with bare hands. I told her to let them remove the spiciness on their hand by rubbing their hands with orange or lemon skin thereafter or they will rubbed their eyes and get hurt by it. Which came true. And every time my "predictions" come true, it does not sit well with her. But most of such I feel is just common sense and the patience to walk the kids through if you want to teach them a skill. Not the "I was taught this way too".


But saying that, I know that the kids love her still and does yearn for whom she had been. Thus I just encourage them by saying we love them just in different ways. Hopefully she understand that the kids are growing up fast and they are registering what's happening. You can no longer brush them off events by offering a lollipop or taking them to ice cream treat. Such memories stay with them.

At least for the next few years, when the kids are more grown up and able to fend themselves, then I will be more comfortable of leaving them with her alone. Unlike for now to the point when she mentioned she will take care of the kids breakfast, but when they woke up and told her they are hungry she ask them to just go drink some water while she sleep away.


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ToSmile, I think your biggest struggle is in trying to exert control over her. You only get control of one person in this life, and that is you! That is what I was trying to get you to see with your "boundary". Your boundary isn't so much a boundary as much as it is a directive. "Thou shall not bring friend to the house!" That is more the type of restriction you would put on a child, not on an equal.

And then the struggle with how she parents. You seem to try to control her parenting style, even though, at its root level, it is just different than yours. Is her style old-school? Sure. Could she be better at teaching them things? Of course. But unless it is truly endangering the child I do not understand trying to micromanage her to that level.

Even your "patience" of three years seems more of trying to exert control. I feel like there is more going on here. Her leaving for 2 months and returning was probably more about her needing a place to live and needing money to sustain her lifestyle than it was about really wanting to return. Especially based on the fact that she returned but has continued to push for a D. ToSmile, I think you have to decide if you are willing to live with her during this limbo period....with no control over her, or to push for D. I do not see a middle ground here. You are struggling because you want control over what you have no control over.

Trust me, I've been there! It is one of the hardest things to face, that you have no control over her, or whether you get a D, etc. But you are going on 2 years here, and you continue to struggle with control issues related to her, who she is around (IE this friend you have so much issue with), and how she handles the kids. It has to be exhausting for you!


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
I did ask her if she ever thought how I would feel about it when she invited that person over? She mentioned no and claimed that friend was not in the picture. I reminded to her if she had forgotten the role of this friend whom was trying to matchmake? Then I told her if it was unintentional, I let it slide this time round but this is my boundary and do not cross it.

Wow TS this is very weak and controlling. You sound more like her dad then her husband.[/quote]
Originally Posted by ToSmile
Yes I do note that there is a potential that her change would be permanent.

More then likely permanent
Originally Posted by ToSmile
Because I kinda feel sick about it and could not quite bring myself to go through everything again.

This feeling will fade with time.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
I also monitor my kids happiness very closely.

How is this measured?
Originally Posted by ToSmile
At least for the next few years, when the kids are more grown up and able to fend themselves, then I will be more comfortable of leaving them with her alone.

Sounds like a horrible situation for then next few years

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Hi Steve and LH,

The portion you pointed out on the controlling her like a child resonated with me. I had read in another marriage help book that mentioned about setting boundary and treating her like a rebel teenage daughter. That is exactly what I am doing and subconsciously is controlling without letting go. Treating her like a grown woman that regressed into a teenager in order to make sense of the current situation to stay sane all this while. Thus it affects me when things "does not go my way". Setting an invisible perimeter that as long as she does not step out of it, all is fine with me. But instead the perimeter should be only with me in it, if I am setting up a boundary.

True that she does teach the kids in better ways than me at other areas. But I only step in during situations when I see some stupid things gonna happen next and provide my suggestions. True that it could also be an opportunity for the kids to learn themselves but I just feel it's kinda unfair for them to perform something to expectation without even communicating / demonstrating to them how to do it then reprimand them for it.

Well I monitored my children happiness through checking with them on how they are feeling frequently in terms of at home / school / friends and what they look forward to etc. Anything troubling them, any concerns and also try to get feedback from the counsellors how the kids feel about the family dynamics, are they comfortable around with us, trust us, do they think they can talk to us about their feelings etc. Thus ask far if they do not sound out any special concern and are feeling positive and happy, I guess that's should be good for them.

Next couple of years may be tough. I am not very sure. I am living a day a time now trying to improve myself through exercising, diverting my thoughts elsewhere and focus on the kids. Steve, you mentioned you been there. How did it end out for you?


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Steve, you mentioned you been there. How did it end out for you?





I would direct you to my threads for details. But what I was saying for having been there, was coming to terms with not having control over her and over the situation. I actually embraced the fact that I had no control over her right away. Our 2017 sitch was our second, the first being in 2005. So I had been through Divorce Busting and read MWD's material, and watched her videos. I had received her emails (not sure if she still does the emails or not). So I fell back to what I had learned in 2005, when BD in 2017 happened. I relinquished control of her right away, realized that she was going to to do what she was going to do, and I had no control over her.

Where I struggled was with the first 2 months everything I did, DBing, backing off and giving her space, GAL, focusing on me, 180ing, and trying to emotionally detach, I was doing all of that trying to control the situation. Trying to prevent a D from happening. Everything I did was focused on trying to save my marriage. What I learned during the rest of my sitch was to let go of trying to save my marriage, and therefore trying to control my sitch. This is where the magic of DBing lies! The LBSs that flourish are the ones that realize, and embrace, the fact that they have no control over whether or not they end up D'd. What they do have control over is being happy no matter WHAT happens with their marriage. It involves dropping fear of the unknown, and understanding that the time past this current moment is ALL unknown.

One of the ways that helped me was to look at it as if my spouse were to have suddenly passed away. We have no control over that, and if and when that happens we eventually have to get past the fear of the unknown our future now faces, pick ourselves up by our bootstraps, and move forward.

LH has some good posts related to lack of control and the fear that comes from it, as well as dropping that fear and realizing that you have no control. ToSmile you will continue to struggle with the current cycle you are in until you come to grips with your lack of control over what happens. It sounds like what you are doing is when she coasts along for a few week without mentioning D, your fear of the unknown and lack of control over the future begins to ease. Then when she invariably reminds you that she still wants a D, you start to spin again due to the fear at the lack of control.

My response at the suggestion of a anti-D expert (not MWD) was to set a drop dead date that I could live with. Not so far out in the future that I still felt that fear of lack of control over my future, but far enough out that I could say I gave her plenty of time to change her mind and move forward without regrets. The suggestion from the author during the consultation session was 1 year. I cannot tell you how freeing having that drop dead date in place was! Knowing that on that date I was going to contact a lawyer and file for D myself gave me a sense of control over my future, event though I still had the short-term lack of control.

The outcome (whether it ended up in D or R) is irrelevant. Embracing the fact that you have no control over the outcome is where the secret sauce is.

Last edited by SteveLW; 04/16/21 11:55 AM.

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Thank you so much for your sharing Steve.

Would love to be directed to your thread. I like the part on pretending she passed away and there’s nothing I can do about. Currently the method I use which I learnt elsewhere was treating that she had gone mad to make myself feel better. But perhaps in this way, there is still the attachment that I should not let her go as she is mad, not gone.

The exchanges these 2 days with you and LH certainly has some impact on me in terms of realisation and reflecting on myself and actions. Would need some digestion and arrangement of thoughts on my end, for myself. For now I try to imagine that I am in a center of a sphere, and just mind my business within the sphere with things that matter to me and I can change. And she is out of the sphere.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Thank you so much for your sharing Steve.

Would love to be directed to your thread. I like the part on pretending she passed away and there’s nothing I can do about. Currently the method I use which I learnt elsewhere was treating that she had gone mad to make myself feel better. But perhaps in this way, there is still the attachment that I should not let her go as she is mad, not gone.

The exchanges these 2 days with you and LH certainly has some impact on me in terms of realisation and reflecting on myself and actions. Would need some digestion and arrangement of thoughts on my end, for myself. For now I try to imagine that I am in a center of a sphere, and just mind my business within the sphere with things that matter to me and I can change. And she is out of the sphere.


ToSmile sounds good. I will post a link to my threads.

Oh, and you are going to be ok! You have this and there are brighter days ahead.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
True that she does teach the kids in better ways than me at other areas. But I only step in during situations when I see some stupid things gonna happen next and provide my suggestions.

TS you sound like a very smart man but these are the kind of comments that I bet go you into trouble. Love is playful and kind. Do you see how enforcing boundaries and lecturing may have worn on your W over the years?

Just an observation.

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Hi ToSmile,

I'm getting you feel your parenting style is better. The thing is, unless hers is abusive or negligent, you each control only 50% of the parenting. If you feel she's abusive or negligent, act to take primary or full custody. If you feel she's not abusive or negligent, cultivate acceptance and appreciating other ways of doing things.

As for my kids and using knives in the kitchen, my approach falls in-between you two. I teach them safe knife usage, then leave it up to them to figure out their way or ask for my way. My S11 often asks for help and prefers tried-and-true techniques. My D16 often finds her own way and outperforms traditional ways.

"Safe" knife usage (to me) means they won't cut themselves if the blade slips.

Originally Posted by ToSmile
I warned they would cut themselves. She mentioned it's ok. Ended up cutting themselves.

Did they go to the ER for stitches or say "Ow!" and learn from it? Based on their age, their technique, and the task--did you believe there was a serious risk of amputation or nicking an artery?

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It sounds like you have many great ideas, e.g. using lemon peels to cleanse your hands from chilis. I've personally used soap. Now I'm curious about the pros and cons of each! I personally think your parenting style is solid and it's wonderful you're so focused on your kids' health and happiness.

If you ever watched the Smurfs, I'd say we should aspire to be more like Papa Smurf (who shared good ideas when asked) and less like Brainy Smurf (who shared good ideas ALL THE TIME).

I DO very occasionally offer unsolicited advice--e.g., I saw a lady really struggle downclimbing one section of a mountain, and she stopped and stared apprehensively at the next when there was an easier way.

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ToSmile,

Just read through your entire thread. 3 years of telling you she wants divorce, disrespecting you, having affairs (coming home at 3 and 5am, texting in your child's bed...etc.). That must be extremely difficult and wear on you over time. I know from my own situation of in-house separation it's hard and soul-crushing, and that was "only" 5 months. I did see some similar behaviors...

Originally Posted by ToSmile
one day she was cooking for my parents, and another day she suddenly handed my parents some gifts and such. Thus I am kinda confuse by her behaviour. She will still tend to be very close with my family members, cousins, aunts and such even though previously she had been avoiding gathering sessions with them

Should I see these signs as something positive or jus ignore it? Actually one think I am always curious about is, what are the signs if she is coming back and how do I react from there?

My W would invite my parents over for Sunday dinner in the midst of our IHS/sitch. I knew from my snooping (which she didn't know about) she was telling her AP and friends it was to "keep the peace" and pretend everything was happy" so I wouldn't spill the beans. I forget the exact term but she would tell her AP she even though it was hard (to play nice at home) she would do it so I wouldn't blow up his life. I decided to play along and play nice husband/family and have my parents over (even though they felt sick about it and didn't want to) to show her what a "nice/loving" family looked like as my counselor suggested and hopefully show her what she'd be missing. Turns out we were all playing an unhealthy charade. Wish now I had stood up stronger in the beginning as my tact didn't change a thing in terms of the outcome anyway.

Originally Posted by ToSmile
The other funny thing is she is still carrying out home improvement stuffs during this period such as planting & potting, getting a cpu fixed up for the kids and such.

Sometimes I wonder if I am dealing with a mentally ill or a WW.

My wife gardened, bought new carpet, did massive prepping/cleaning around the house for Spring...all shortly before moving out. It was like a bizarre riddle there was no answer to. Even after separation and her living with OM2, bought me what would've been a really nice Christmas present of a picture of my son and I...except it wasn't nice, because why would I want something like that from her at this point?

Originally Posted by LH19
TS you sound like a very smart man but these are the kind of comments that I bet go you into trouble. Love is playful and kind. Do you see how enforcing boundaries and lecturing may have worn on your W over the years?

Just an observation.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
If you ever watched the Smurfs, I'd say we should aspire to be more like Papa Smurf (who shared good ideas when asked) and less like Brainy Smurf (who shared good ideas ALL THE TIME).


Good thoughts here by LH/CWarrior. I probably was guilty of too much advice and lecturing, and will work on that going forward - don't take that to mean it justifies the affairs, deceit and disrespect your W is showing you though!

This earlier comment resonates with me...

Originally Posted by LH19
So I just went back and read your opening thread and I think it's really time to think about what your standing for and what you want out of the second half of your life. Your W is a kook who doesn't respect you or marriage.

I know you you are worried about your children but the truth is that they will be better with a normal and stable parent 50% of the time. It will likely be many, many years if ever that you see a reappearance of your old wife.

You make mention of your W being like Wolf's wife well the is about the bottom of the barrel for WWs.

Show your children what a strong male looks like.

To me the bottom line is how long are you willing to take this situation and her treatment of you? I'm not advocating divorce, as ideally everyone would work on the marriage and fix the issues, but if the other person isn't willing to work on it there has to be a point in every sitch you pull the plug. For me, my W took the action and I didn't have to make the choice but I firmly believe 3 years would be much to long for me. Yes, most of us are afraid of the impact to the kids - it's certainly not ideal - but then is witnessing your W's behavior and seeing you live with it good for them either? Unfortunately your W has put you and the kids in a bad position either way and unfortunately you need to decide the best way for you to play the cards she dealt you. Good luck. I'm certainly wishing the best for you and your children.

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Hi all,

Hope everyone had good weekend. Normally I do not bring my workstation home over the weekend but I do look through the postings via my phone.

LH, Cwarrior, I reflected on it. I do think I have been too much of a smart ass with the "I know it / that's gonna happen" that kill off all the fun for others to try and figure it out themselves, especially for her. She used to claimed that a reason she was attracted me back then was that I am a very good planner and I am able to take care of everything with my planning, always back up with contingencies A, B, C in line making everything going so smoothly. But this is a double edge sword I guess. Overtime it is controlling, kills the novelty and irritates one. I became like a parenting figure that is "overly protective" unknowingly just to spare myself of the inconvenience in salvaging aftermaths.

Perhaps now, I understand why she mentioned I am like her mother controlling her. Actually the controlling is not me restricting her freedom of movement but freedom to explore, the freedom to express her decisions with these unsolicited advices. Especially if it comes true as what I had said, it would irk her even more. I am in the wrong frequency with her as I always thought I never restrict her movement like her mother did. But likely she got the same feeling whenever I dishes out these advices, which may seems novel at the beginning to nagging over the course of time.

BL42, I managed to have some downtime over the weekend in thinking things over as she brought the kids out with her friends and family for a staycation. Although I would say that I am not yet ready to initiate the divorce, I do not think I will challenge her again with regards to the overnight access shall she bring up the divorce again as that seems to be her claim of what's holding her back. I'll just remove the "obstacle" that she feels stopping her to take action and stick to managing those that I can control within my invisible sphere.

Just like over the weekend, she brought the kids for staycation with her family. So I managed to go out to meet up with my friends. On the second night, she called and told me that the younger one was not feeling well and like to return home. She asked if I could pick him up. I just had my first drink with my friends but I chose to excuse myself and pick the younger boy up. My friends followed me as they decided to come over and carry on with the catch up. On the way back, the boy vomited on me twice and after we got home, I clean him up, made him comfortable and tuck him in before joining my friends at the living area.

They passed me the question as to the younger boy is sick, why can't she handle him? And why can't she end the staycation and bring both the kids home? I shared with them that well, she did offer to continue taking care of the younger boy at the hotel. But the boy asked to come home and knowing that, I made the choice to fetch him. This is how I prioritize things, which I think is different with her decision making process. ie: I can't have the peace of mind to enjoy myself knowing my kid is sick but from past occasions, she is able to let go.

However, this is not something I can control. What I can do is to be there for my kids when they need me and feel happy spending time with them. I was not angry about the episode as well but in fact happy that I am able to see my younger one earlier. To be fair, she did message me later asking me how the younger boy is fairing. Well that evening her tone to me was pleasant likely because I was of help "lol" and thereafter back to the cold stonewalling style again.

Anyway it doesn't matter. I just take care of myself and hope I am improving on my DB and boundaries.


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ToSmile, one of the things I read in my sitch, early on, is that if you are a controller the first 180 (that MWD's term for it not the anti-D expert that I am quoting) you should make is to stop that. Don't be the kind of husband that tries to control her in any way. There are lots of way we try to control:

- Criticizing how they do things
- Watching their spending like a hawk
- Correcting them when we think they are wrong in front of the kids or other people
- Snooping on them
- Using manipulation or gaslighting
- Nice Guy Syndrome!

I took a long hard look at myself when my W said she wanted a D, and I didn't like the person staring back at me. I had all of the above list to greater or to lesser extents, relatively. And I had to make the decision right then to stop those behaviors, and to start 180ing on all of them. Every time I started to say something or do something I would try to ask myself if that was in anyway manipulative or controlling. If it was then I didn't say it or do it. (The one I struggled with the most was snooping, but got better with it over time.)

The effects in that 180 were pretty quick. The first 4 weeks she thought I was not doing those things to convince her to stay. The next 4 weeks she started to embrace the new me, hesitantly. She even tested it a few times. (I remember one big test was when she went and spent $350 at the grocery store and I didn't even bat an eye!) By month three she was starting to believe that I could actually change! I think this was in part because I was showing her I was going to be okay moving forward if she still left me, AND at the same time still wasn't trying to control, at least in most of the ways that I used to. (This forum was a big part of that too!)

ToSmile, you may or may not save your MR by stopping the controlling tendencies now, but you will save a lot of future Rs (including those with your kids) if you can curb the controlling behaviors.


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TSMILE you win the quote of the day:

“Love is playful and fun. Not serious. Men should decide ahead of time to be in a good mood and choose to be happy, no matter what mood their women are in. It’s a more efficient, easier and effortless physiology to be in a fun, playful and peak state versus being grumpy, angry, irritable and moody. Women often test their men by feigning irritation or disapproval with their actions and words. Men who don’t know any better fail these tests by trying to defend themselves, getting all serious, rationalizing and apologizing and trying to keep the peace when their women back them into a corner through intimidation. Smart men use women’s grumpy moods to tease them playfully, make fun of them in a loving and good-natured way and to get them to open up and talk about what’s bothering them or to simply help them change their state by being so funny and charming, that their women can’t help but laugh, apologize for being grumpy and become sweet and playful themselves.” ~ Coach Corey Wayne

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Hi Steve,

Through the marriage, I was doing the Nice Guy thing and after BD, I am guilty of all except the watching her spending, snooping and gaslighting.

I just have the strong feeling that either my first divorce help book was wrong or I interpreted it wrongly. But anyway, I am leaving that behind because the past is something I can't change. For now, I am directing my thoughts and actions not towards saving the marriage. I am steering myself away from the marriage instead, not in the sense of "venturing out" but to drop the topic totally from my mind. I am focusing on the work outs, the kids, and everything else except her and the marriage. And it really felt good this week except I nearly had a melt down couple of days ago due to working at home for a couple of days with 2 kids that's ill and added on with some issues from my family. Just tried to get out of the situation by going out alone yesterday night when the wife was back and the kids asleep to catch a breather.

LH, I think love died over time in my marriage. The fun and playfulness were gone for me especially when the kids arrived and mounting financial commitments. She was earning more than me and perhaps my subconscious feeling of inferiority drove me to focus all on my work and I turned into a no fun guy, very different from whom I was. I dislike hassles and just want things to be done in the most effective and efficient way without having to say the "I told you so" and follows by having to make things good. I was like a nanny and all the fun was gone too. Likely she did try to reach out too. Until she gave up as she failed to capture my attention. I still remember she told me to give her a hug every morning when we are in the elevator but at that point in time, my thoughts were all the projects, deadlines and meeting the numbers at work and expenses at home.

The rationalizing and apologizing part were true for me as well. So that's how it all failed. I can't change the past. What I can do is just shed that weight, armor & know it all ego of mine and free everyone. I'll just look at myself and leave the rest alone and take one step a time at this new direction that I am heading.

I really appreciate the pointing out of the passive controlling behavior and the sharing of the wonderful quote above. It means and makes me feel so much lighter now even though I am reading this after a long work day. Look forward to be receiving more of these wise words.


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ToSmile, changing is hard. Impossible without IC. You admit you are controlling, so are you in IC?


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Through the marriage, I was doing the Nice Guy thing and after BD, I am guilty of all except the watching her spending, snooping and gaslighting.

It's good that you can acknowledge this behavior.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
I just have the strong feeling that either my first divorce help book was wrong or I interpreted it wrongly.

Truthfully I don't think anything but time and space would fix your situation.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
But anyway, I am leaving that behind because the past is something I can't change. For now, I am directing my thoughts and actions not towards saving the marriage. I am steering myself away from the marriage instead, not in the sense of "venturing out" but to drop the topic totally from my mind. I am focusing on the work outs, the kids, and everything else except her and the marriage.

Perfect!
Originally Posted by ToSmile
And it really felt good this week except I nearly had a melt down couple of days ago due to working at home for a couple of days with 2 kids that's ill and added on with some issues from my family. Just tried to get out of the situation by going out alone yesterday night when the wife was back and the kids asleep to catch a breather.

IHS was the worst year of my life. Can't even imagine it with Covid. Be kind and patient with yourself
Originally Posted by ToSmile
LH, I think love died over time in my marriage. The fun and playfulness were gone for me especially when the kids arrived and mounting financial commitments.

That's what lands most people here.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
The rationalizing and apologizing part were true for me as well. So that's how it all failed. I can't change the past. What I can do is just shed that weight, armor & know it all ego of mine and free everyone.

Love this paragraph.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
I'll just look at myself and leave the rest alone and take one step a time at this new direction that I am heading.

Perfect!
Originally Posted by ToSmile
I really appreciate the pointing out of the passive controlling behavior and the sharing of the wonderful quote above. It means and makes me feel so much lighter now even though I am reading this after a long work day. Look forward to be receiving more of these wise words.

You are welcome!
Originally Posted by ToSmile
ToSmile, changing is hard. Impossible without IC. You admit you are controlling, so are you in IC?

I disagree with this statement. IC can help but it is not impossible to change without it. Just try to get a little better everyday.

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Hi Steve,

I am on Public IC (Free of Charge) but after awhile, I feel the sessions not being very productive because over time, I feel the IC tends to be empathic with me and does not value add much. Perhaps the IC is not a very good or experience one and nowadays my sessions with her a bi-monthly and it's more like she's lending a ear to me and checking in on me. However through her, I secure the IC session for my children from the same organization.

I may be considering at taking up meditation, taking up some courses or evening joining some new groups to keep myself busy and fulfill as of now. At the same time also relinquish some of the hobbies that I had given up long ago smile

At where I am at, I think there isn't much experienced ICs except those that are very specialized in certain subject matters and cost a lot per session.... Ever check out before and a couple of sessions can easily end up in grands.


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I had to switch IC after about 8 every other week sessions. I had started seeing her before I came here. At first when I was a puddle of emotions she was fantastic, but week after week as I learned to cope and started making decisions about how I wanted to handle things, my kids, my self, the house hold etc, she got increasingly worse. Week after week she asked when I was going to kick him out. She kept pushing me on how long was I willing to live like this, it had literally only been several weeks since the EA had started H was just diving headlong into the affair quickly. No matter how much I explained to her I can't legally kick him out. No matter how I asked her how that would work with a non-bio kid in my house legally (just as an aside I knew because I worked in juvenile and family law for years & half way through this I retained an attorney) she never had an answer. It wasn't even a matter of me wanting to stand, it was a matter of her treating my marriage falling apart at the seams like a 20 something break up. Much like H was. It wasn't logical, legal or helpful what she was offering. I didn't want to leave her and find someone new as, we had taken the time to build a rapport, she was fully covered under my EAP program at work, and was incredibly cheap once I ran out of free sessions, but the fact is it wasn't working.

I don't have a ton of expendable income, but I have an FSA that had money on it, and I knew this was something I needed. And for reference I'm paying out of pocket this year to still see the therapist I found after the disastrous one. No it isn't cheap. And yes it's pretty daunting with a D impeding and all the money that will cost, but the way I started to sleep at night was worth every penny. How she metaphorically held my hand through my husband mourning the A and the OW, and eventually turning back toward me and our MR when all of it made my anxiety and therefore my control issues skyrocket was worth every penny. The fact is it isn't cheap, you're right. But you need to decided if you're worth that. I decided I was. And my girls deserved the most level headed, healthy parent I could and can give them. Ask yourself if you'd be paying for MC if WW was willing to reconcile. If the answer is yes then you know what you really should be doing here.

Also as I've suggested to other people on this board there are a lot of online counseling options, apps even, including sliding scale in all kinds of modalities and specialties. If this is something you want it's out there for you, it just make take a little more work to get there.

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Tosmile, WHAT wayfarer said!! I do not understand when people have a bad IC experience why they give up on all IC! It is like going to a restaurant, receiving bad service, and vowing to never eat at another restaurant ever again. ICs are like anything else. There are good ones and there are bad ones.

We often hear from LBSs "I can't afford IC". My response is always the same "You cannot afford NOT to be in IC."


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Hi Wayfarer, Steve,

I am still visiting the IC but as of now, I think the purpose of what she can do for me is more of a listening ear or someone whom I am able to talk to, knowing much of the details.

At the current stage that I am at, I may be thinking of moving on more by myself as I feel it's hard for me to speak to another IC and repeating everything all over. It's tiring to even recall haha.

From my experience with my current IC, she always prompt me questions which, I have thought over myself and know what my replies are. I am looking for some experience and advices on what I can do now and how perhaps I can move on and embrace a better tomorrow than today.

That's why I feel I am getting much better information and advices here than the time I spent at the IC which most of the time after the session, I walked out, felt like having a drink as I felt drained when she asked me how have things been between me and my wife? How is she? Are we talking or is she still treating me in a hostile manner? Etc. After I narrate, she just went "oh haha that's bad, probably she might be feeling this/that etc". I mean it's really more like listening to what I said and acknowledging my feeling that's all. And every time when I share those details, it's like to go through what happened again.

The reason I am still following up is also because through the same center, I got the ICs for my kids so primarily during my sessions, I will check about the kids well being. Thus at times, I am not looking forward to the session as well and I only meet her up once every 2 months.

Now I am looking at activities or hobby groups that I can join to direction my attention and focus. Something to keep me more busy, feel productive and look forward to. I need to weave back my social life with others that I have given up much over these years as well.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Just like over the weekend, she brought the kids for staycation with her family. So I managed to go out to meet up with my friends. On the second night, she called and told me that the younger one was not feeling well and like to return home. What I can do is to be there for my kids when they need me and feel happy spending time with them. I was not angry about the episode as well but in fact happy that I am able to see my younger one earlier.

Props for this--you were out socializing with friends (GAL), and you also prioritized caring for your son, for your son. These are smart decisions, ToSmile, the kind not everyone makes after BD.

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ToSmile, the beauty of how this works is that you get decide for yourself! I can continue to talk about the importance of IC, and you can continue to ignore it and decide that IC isn't for you. Happens a lot on this forum.

But you keep talking about how this particular IC wasn't helping you as if a) you cannot change to a different IC, and/or b) all ICs are the same. What I am trying to get you to see is that all ICs are not the same, there are good ones and bad ones, and if the one you currently have isn't working for you then move to a new one.

But it is entirely up to you! wayfarer and I are simply trying to help, but we are just strangers on the internet.


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Cwarrior,

The chaps are definitely my priorities. There is a time for everything but I know they are growing up fast and this is when they need the attention from us. So no qualms for me. And I am glad that my friends share their understanding thus we had been bunch of buddies for coming to 30 years.

SteveLW,

Don't get me wrong. I definitely appreciate the comments from you and wayfarer. I think perhaps I might not express it well.

My current IC might have been good for me previously as she was also a lending ear for support. But overtime, I think it just stays at that. True I could have changed an IC but then again, what held me back was the high fees that would be slapped on me. And anyway at this point in time, I think I have "Move out" of that phase which the IC could have helped me. I think I am in a phase which I welcome another kind of support, from GAL, Socializing and maybe Hobby Groups than talking about my marriage problem and see how I can work on it because, I don't want to work on it for now. I just want to work on myself.

Maybe I should get another IC that helps me to move from my current spot? I am not sure. But I feel it's kinda daunting to repeat the history to another person where I came from and how I ended up here. Thus that is something that is holding me back from seeing another IC. I have not cancelled my future sessions with this IC. I am still following up with her with regards to the children. Maybe for the next session, I would tell her how I feel like moving forth from here and also see what she says.

I feel I am re-entering a work in process period of my DB again, after the exchange I had with you and LH last week. I am taking my time to think and consider where I move on from here, at the same time reminding myself that I can only control myself and no one else. But one thing in my mind I know I look forward to do is, increase my social circle and GAL more.

I really appreciate your help. In fact, I see you'll as my "Virtual ICs" rather than strangers smile The comments and guidance I receive here benefits me much better than what I had received from my IC sessions. So keep them coming.

Yesterday night we went out for dinner together to celebrate one of the boy's birthday. Even though we threw a small birthday party over the weekend, the birthday boy requested for a celebration that involved us only thus the dinner occasion. Though she came along, the whole evening she was pulling a long face but I couldn't care much. I just focus on ensuring the boys having a good time. When I look at the group photo the restaurant took of us as part of their complimentary service, her expression and body language shows that she was so uncomfortable in the photo and was like a total misfit. But anyway, that's just her. But it does feel psychological to me though haha because I don't think I would take a photo with such expression and language beside someone unless they had not shower for a year and stink as hell?

After dinner, she brought the boys to a photo booth to take some candid sticker photos. Well since she never asked me to join in, I just stick around and wait for them to finish taking the photos. While waiting for them, some thoughts came to my mind perhaps it's better and much more relief for me if D is proceeded. Because if it's so horrible for her and it's so tough for me, what's the point to stand further?

Just a feeling seeding in me because from the family photo taken in the restaurant, her expression and body language was totally overkill to me, like she was avoiding some plague subconsciously. I was not even beside her, the kids were and we were sitting in a single file with both of us at one end to another. I can't imagine she was suggesting we remain friends / housemates and co-parent the kids under the same roof after D if she is already behaving like that when we took a photo together haha.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile


After dinner, she brought the boys to a photo booth to take some candid sticker photos. Well since she never asked me to join in, I just stick around and wait for them to finish taking the photos. While waiting for them, some thoughts came to my mind perhaps it's better and much more relief for me if D is proceeded. Because if it's so horrible for her and it's so tough for me, what's the point to stand further?

Just a feeling seeding in me because from the family photo taken in the restaurant, her expression and body language was totally overkill to me, like she was avoiding some plague subconsciously. I was not even beside her, the kids were and we were sitting in a single file with both of us at one end to another. I can't imagine she was suggesting we remain friends / housemates and co-parent the kids under the same roof after D if she is already behaving like that when we took a photo together haha.


ToSmile, I am sure some of this is your own insecurities and being overly sensitive to her body language, etc because of the situation. Totally normal. We start to put significance on the insignificant. I did the same thing. "Oh she is sitting next to me, she likes me! Oh she chose a spot away from me, we are still getting a D!" LBSs become body language experts post BD!

I am sure she was torn. She has essentially sad she doesn't want to be a family anymore, yet here she is doing a family outing. Part of her was enjoying it, part of her was thinking "how did I get myself into this situation?" It is very typical for the WAS during limbo to agree to things like this family dinner, and then do whatever they can to show you that they aren't happy being there.

Here is the thing, if you picked up on it I am sure your kids did too. This is why I repeat the mantra "Kids would rather be from a broken home than in a broken home." The learnings your kids are getting from you and your STBXW right now are how NOT to be a married couple. I know you've talked about having the kids in IC and that is great. But limbo is as hard on the kids as it is on couple. I know in my own situation my daughter, who was a teenager at the time, went through a period where her behavior deteriorated, especially in relation to me, and the period of limbo and for a time after we started piecing and reconciling was the worst period of behavior of her life.

We didn't tell her anything that was going on, but she detected it. My wife, due to some behavioral issues after we were in reconciliation, took her phone away from her. In perusing the phone we saw messages to her friends where she was saying things like "I don't know what is going on with my family right now". She was definitely picking up on cues, many of the same cues I was, and it was having an effect on her.

Likely the "request" from your son for a dinner with just the family for his birthday was because he too is detecting that something isn't right. Your sitch has gone on for quite a while, and WASs tend to become less tolerant and more demonstrative over time. I would say at your kids current ages there is no way that they don't detect and note the same things that you do.

Have you considered the damage that is being done to the kids by your "willingness" to hang on for this long? I know this is back to beating the dead horse of having an exit strategy. But this long limbo isn't good for any of you, your WAS included. And it seems things are getting worse over time, not better.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
But it does feel psychological to me though haha because I don't think I would take a photo with such expression and language beside someone unless they had not shower for a year and stink as hell?

This is how she feels right now. AS likes to post a quote from Cersei on Game of Thrones "Every breath you draw in my presence annoys me." That's how she feels about you right now. The only thing that can change that is time and space.

Originally Posted by ToSmile
I can't imagine she was suggesting we remain friends / housemates and co-parent the kids under the same roof after D if she is already behaving like that when we took a photo together haha.

Typical LBS mistake. Holding on to every word spoken by a WW. My guess is right now there is no OM. So this offer stands until there is one and there will be if she looks hard enough. Then she will be gone quicker then you can say "what happened"?

Expect many more years of this if you stay status quo.

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A long weekend away for Labour Day celebration where we are.

You are right Steve that we tends to take cues from their body language and become "Expert Interpreter" of such. However how she is behaving isn't affecting me in the sense that it bothers me but I just thought why is she making things hard for her self in this manner?

She can excuse herself if she does not feel like coming. It's not the first time she misses out on such family occasions. I just thought if she bothers to come, why she still pull the long face? Well it's just her against her emotions. I can't judge her on that nor would I want to be concern more than observation. Like you said, thats how the WAW mindset works.
Just on the similar note to her weird proposal of staying together post D.

With regards to kids observing the daily dynamics, yeah I agree. I did sit down with them before and explore the possibility of post divorce and separation. At this point in time, although they know their mom does not love me anymore in her present state, they are still hoping that we will be together with each other. They are also against the thoughts of separation and prefer the existing arrangement. Thus also I keep them in check with IC because the feedback from IC of their well being also affects my decision and next steps.

Well I would not say that this will go on forever, but weighing the pros and cons, and their overall well being in check (Both are happy now, fulfilled, independent and model students in school), I might be able to afford stand awhile more. I was rather surprised when I talked to them that they are able to discuss with me calmly about the family situation and how they feel, instead of breaking down that I cautiously imagined. I do explain to them why I am still standing even though I could have just walked away, was because of how we came by in building the family and because I love our family, not because that I am staying for their sake.

But that being said, It's also the last straw for the camel back. I told myself if she brought up divorce again, I will facilitate the process, make it easy for her by withdrawing my previous terms of no overnight stays which seem to be the thing that is holding her back and if not, I'll take the initiative to file it.


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ToSmile,

Excellent response. You seem to be doing a good job of being a father through this difficult period. I applaud that! That is about all you can do at this point.

I don't necessarily like the waiting for her to bring it up again for you to move the D forward. But in this case I will take it. I do not expect that it will take long, based on her behavior at the family dinner. I think she felt completely uncomfortable with the façade of the happy family considering she has made it abundantly clear that she wants out. I get what you said about her excusing herself in the past, but likely her guilt at what this is doing to the kids made her agree to attend this time. But likely she will want to avoid being in that situation again in the future. And will raise the issue of D again.

ToSmile, some of the best advice I got in my sitch, and apologies if you already have heard this, is that the WAS is just trying to be happy. She doesn't know how to find that happiness, all she knows is that being in the marriage isn't making her happy. So she will continue to try to find her way out of the marriage, even if she is too lazy to push it forward herself. (We've already been over that last part.)

Again, I know this is hard. I feel for you. I know that if you could you would snap your fingers and make this all go away. But the sooner you turn your face towards the sun, and move forward with your life, the better off you and your kids will be for it! I know that they would prefer that you stay together, but I think deep down they know that if the relationship cannot be made whole, that it is better for you and them to move forward. The current state is not their wish, being in a home with a loving, happy, mom and dad that love each other as well as them is really what they want. Unfortunately, that is out of your power to give them.

You got this ToSmile! Onward and upward!


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Meanwhile, you’ve got the chance to keep shining. That light comes from your inside. A bright pure light.

Shine there.


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Hi Steve,

Actually this is not the first time she join us for family events. Although the dinner this time round was suggested by the son, normally if there are any special occasions, I would just casually ask if she like to join in and it's all up to her. No obligations. Sometimes she join, and is ok. Other times is like above. Most of the time she does not join. But in truth, I would rather that she does not join if she gonna pull that face. It just kinda dampen the mood for others anyway.

Metaphorically speaking, I am turning my back at her and starting walking. I am looking at another direction now and not turning around and see, with the kids by my side. I'll just look to the front and to my left and right to ensure their happiness. It's either she realize that I am walking further and further away and if she would catch up, or she can continue the other direction when eventually we are just out of each other's sight.

Thinking back those times from BD onwards is really a nightmare now. I am also looking for my happiness. I even deleted the photos of the trip we went supposedly to work it out. I had never enjoyed that holiday. Recently, I had been thinking about something that someone wise told me a decade ago which I could not quite accept back then. But with age and life experiences, it kind of make sense to me if I seek for quality of life or to be happy....

That is: "If some people are so toxic to you, you cut them out of your life. Even if they are your parents. Otherwise you will not be able to move on with them dragging you down." It was hard for me to think back then..... giving up on parents? But life had also otherwise taught me many things. And all I hope for is to provide for the next generation a life that is not tainted with the nonsenses I received.

Sometimes I look back and thought, how would it be if my pursues were different and where will I be at now? And if I had not met her, how would I be now? But well I can't change anything. Just look forward.


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I like the looking forward. That is a big part of DBing. DBing is about controlling what you can control, and giving up control on things you cannot. I know this was my biggest struggle. Trying to control my sitch, my MR, my wife, the past, the cat (lol), was exhausting. And due to being impossible it made me an angry, bitter man, and that affected every relationship and aspect of my life.

So understanding that the past is locked in, and that the future is the only thing you can impact is a good understanding.

Keep working ToSmile! You are moving forward, that is the whole goal.


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Hi Steve,

Yes the looking forward part. Recently I do feel myself much more happier and lighter when I take that approach. It was also really the sharing by you & LH that really hit the spot and made me see some light.

I am thinking that although I am good at planning, it also seems that I am trying to ensure everything falls into my plan and that is also the need to control. I may think that I am doing it for the good of everyone but in fact it's more like for me.

So I let go. I start to embrace uncertainty, the unknown. I take it easier on myself. Accepting the thoughts that hey, it might not be that bad after all for the children even if we split. I know for sure my finance situation will improve, I will have more freedom, I don't need to be accountable to her standards, nor do I need to be concern about what I like to do which she does not approve of previously, I would not need to consider for her feelings and best of all, I would not need to face that long pulling / disapproving face at me.

In fact, thanks to her, I do also feel that any random opposite gender stranger shows more kindness to me than she does. It may be also due to that she was so insecure that I actually refrain from mingling much with friends of the opposite sex and with my experience, I shut off. Maybe this is the part LH mentioned about that my view of withdrawing from another commitment will change overtime. If I start to accept it and move on from here.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Maybe this is the part LH mentioned about that my view of withdrawing from another commitment will change overtime.

Right now you view every woman as being like your W. You have the opposite of the rose colored classes. That will change with time if and when you get away from your W and see that every woman does not feel that way towards you. When you first start dating it's weird at first to comprehend that another woman is interested in how yous day was and interested in your life and hobbies.

I have a unhappily married friend who I tell my dating stories and he once told me "if a woman every said that to me I would lay down on the floor and weep with joy". As you can imagine he is bitter towards women right now. He has no idea what is instore for him when he gets out of his mess.

You are young so if you want to see high it plays out and DB some more it is totally understandable. Just keep your expectations at zero and keep working on yourself.

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Like to seek some opinions here.

Although I am not yet ready to trigger the filing from my end, I am feel like telling my wife that I have decided to withdraw from fighting with her on the overnight care taking of the kids.

So don't let that be the reason if it was, to hold her back from filing the papers. Because the last round she brought the matter up, that was what she said.

Or should I just keep these comments to myself and only bring it up when she initiates filing again?


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Like to seek some opinions here.

Although I am not yet ready to trigger the filing from my end, I am feel like telling my wife that I have decided to withdraw from fighting with her on the overnight care taking of the kids.

So don't let that be the reason if it was, to hold her back from filing the papers. Because the last round she brought the matter up, that was what she said.

Or should I just keep these comments to myself and only bring it up when she initiates filing again?


ToSmile, I find that words never convey the meaning that actions do. So let me flip this around, what does withdrawing from fighting with her on overnight care taking of the kids look like to you? What are you going to DO DIFFERENTLY to withdraw from fighting with her.

I find most LBSs use words to try to effect change in their WAS. It is a matter of trying to control the uncontrollable. That is why action is so important. Because it keeps the change in the realm of what you can control: yourself.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Although I am not yet ready to trigger the filing from my end, I am feel like telling my wife that I have decided to withdraw from fighting with her on the overnight care taking of the kids.


The question I have is why do it if you are not ready to pull the trigger?

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I seem to be at a stage that my consciousness is fighting against my feelings.

I get that feelings at times that is growing strong telling me to f it taking it as how she had been treating this whole deal and such.

But at other times, when I see my kids, I feel kinda torn to put them through what is to come. Yeah I know it may be better for them as well but I do not think I am brace enough for the emotions that gonna hit them once I carry this forward.

But at times, I really feel like telling her, it’s ok. I accede to what u want. I’ll just do the filing as you does not seem to be able to realise it and I’ll see it through.

As I was think about the above earlier today, something happened too.

I was chilling at somewhere near my place and I saw her car returning. She was like desperate for a parking lot, driving into an illegal lot and parked the car there. After a while, another car pulled up. She jump out from her car and hop onto the car.

I was kinda far away this I could not make out much details but I reckon it was a male driver. However she got back home about an hour later. Frankly I do not like what I see. I can’t be bothered about who it was and what’s the reason but I do feel it somehow triggered me.

Then when I got home, she wa trying to mess around with the boys playing with tj and got them loud and excited past bedtime. Something she always chided me for when I did so. I just told them to tone down and get ready for bed. I do feel that some of these actions are out of the norm. I don’t know. I just don’t like it and the feeling of not putting up with it grew strong in me.

I intend to start making my plans and drawing up my timeline to serve. Spoken to my elder boy also. To my surprise, he would rather we split as he felt my wife being the aggravator most of the time and we are all not happy. Though he would much prefer we are like what we once were. He weeped silently when he said these. Then the younger one still prefer we remain as family.

But my heart is driving closer to serving. I just feel that, she is testing my patience and why should I put up with these when she seems to be testing the limits?

That’s my feeling now. Thus I thought to tell her and get it moving. Though I am not ready at this point in time to be the initiator, I have no qualms to respond in acceptance if she initiated


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
I was chilling at somewhere near my place and I saw her car returning. She was like desperate for a parking lot, driving into an illegal lot and parked the car there. After a while, another car pulled up. She jump out from her car and hop onto the car.

I was kinda far away this I could not make out much details but I reckon it was a male driver. However she got back home about an hour later. Frankly I do not like what I see. I can’t be bothered about who it was and what’s the reason but I do feel it somehow triggered me.

TS 95% of these situations involve a third party. If this is the ammo you need to get it done you can certainly confirm your suspicions.

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Couple of things happened recently that I am kinda inclined to trust my feelings than giving the benefit of doubts:

1. She removed me from one of her social media accounts.

2. Her parents seem exceptionally nice to me... however behind the niceties, I sensed apologetic vibes. It gives me a feeling that they might know something but keeping it from me. But well, their her parents. Can't blame them.

3. She always has a going out routine. Even during this Covid period where most areas are shut, she seems to have somewhere to go.

4. Just like yesterday, while she was parking the cark, I just had a hunch that I'll see something if I just sit there and wait. Thus I did.

Thus yesterday, I also deliberately shift the car to a normal lot which I told her. And she seemed awkward after that. I just act as normal and proceed with my things.

I would like to think that even though it might not be what I thought yesterday, she is constantly trying to look out for someone, and yeah taking us as Plan B.


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Trust your gut! Unfortunately it seems peoples' intuitions are usually proven correct in these cases. And especially if she picked an parking spot and quickly/secretively got into a car with another person. Where there's smoke there's usually fire.


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Originally Posted by BL42
Trust your gut! Unfortunately it seems peoples' intuitions are usually proven correct in these cases. And especially if she picked an parking spot and quickly/secretively got into a car with another person. Where there's smoke there's usually fire.


THIS

Not sure about you ToSmile, but a PA for me in my sitch would have made my way forward so much clearly and easier for me. It is a boundary that there is no coming back from. Not sure if you have the same perspective or not, but I agree 100% with BL42. Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing.


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Been a while. Hope everyone is well here.

Abit of update on my stitch. Overtime, I kinda have enough of her stance towards me and her way of trying to belittle or talk down to me. Thus I just let go. I told her, if she intents to divorce, let’s do it. There is no point that we are still staying together with her behaving like that in front of us daily.

She told me she was actually intending to wait for the kids to get bigger before doing so. And we can co parent under the same roof for now. I told her there will never be the right time and it is really also very suffocating for me to face her in this manner. I have not done anything to provoke / aggravate her and yet she is always behaving in that agitated manner.

I told her I leave it to her. If she would like to proceed, just do it but that does not solve the problem. For 3 over years, she had been treating me like that in and out. Then she started to bring out the instant which I dragged her to the psychiatrist for evaluation. I asked her, did she even remember why I did so? How was she behaving then that pushed me to that? She went quiet and said sorry thereafter. It’s the kind of scenario when they push u for a reaction that it crossed your line then they cried victim.

I told her to seek help for her issues. She said she did try to see a therapist previously but the therapist could not help her. I recommend her to look for another one then. Post then till now been about 3 weeks. She had been mostly cordial since then till now till this morning she messaged me saying that she intent to take my suggestion and proceed with the divorce. She is suggesting that perhaps we can go out for dinner and talk in details about it. I told her it’s fine with me. I’ll leave the arrangement of the dinner to her.

Then she mentioned she would like to buy over my share of our existing home, claiming that it’s better not to cause too much changes to the environment for the kids. I told her I would want to consider about that because my initial thoughts was to divest the home if it brings better profit. She said we can discuss about that and take my time to consider no problem.

Later I found out from my helper that she has actually been talking to the kids these few days about separation again behind my back. No wonder I do notice my chaps feeling Abit down but was not able to catch up with them much as I was returning late from work these 2 days.

I think I had done enough and I just leave it to that. No regrets. A particular incident that happened a month ago also diminished whatever much memories I had of whom she once was. I had a very bad fall that led to a grade 2 ankle sprain while at home. I was on the ground for 5 mins and unable to get up. She witness it and after a while just asked, “u ok?†Then called out to the kids saying “ur dad had a bad fall†before walking away. My helper and the dog was showing even more concern than her.

A wake up fall instead for me. So my intention now is, just go with the flow. Let her make the arrangements and I just go along with it. Always thought that perhaps things might be better due to her changes these 2-3 weeks but it comes back to this. And I told myself if she raised the topic of divorce up again, that would be the end of my stand. Originally I thought of roughing it out for 6 years as that’s the typical max range for MLC that I read or for ever. But then I think is enough.

3 years and 5 months since the bomb dropped. I accept the closure to my marriage and the person that I shared my life with. Although there’s some stirring within me still, it’s no longer as bad as before. I do look forward to some company but everyone’s kinda busy during this festive season and this is such a negative matter. So I think I’ll just get me some drinks later.


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ToSmile,

Welcome back, and sorry you're still in this situation. I couldn't sleep tonight and so I just re-read your story.

Honest opinion? Your most recent update sounds like nothing much has changed at all. In your very first post here in July 2019 and countless times since right up until the present, your W was threatening D and you were telling her "ok, go ahead" and she wasn't taking action on separation/D.

3.5 years is a really long time to be living this way. I imagine it's a drain on you emotionally, mentally, and possibly physically.

How old are your kids? Earlier in your sitch you mention them sleeping on a mattress next to the martial bed, so that makes them seem young, but now are talking about discussions you and your W have with them about your marriage and the family and possibly getting through school before divorce, so that makes them seem older. It sounds like your W wants to get them through high school and then divorce so the status quo is actually to her advantage. The question is...does that work for you? Or, are you tired of it and ready to take action on your own and move on?

One thing that occurred to me is your threads seem very focused on your W's actions and state of mind and has very little mention on your GAL and self-development. Are you in the gym? Have you taken on new hobbies, activities? Met new friends? I joined an adult sports league, started grad school, joined a club, going to parties with friends...etc., and that has helped me a lot. Hope you're finding something to make the best of your life.

Hang in there...


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Abit of update on my stitch. Overtime, I kinda have enough of her stance towards me and her way of trying to belittle or talk down to me. Thus I just let go. I told her, if she intents to divorce, let’s do it. There is no point that we are still staying together with her behaving like that in front of us daily.
Hi ToSmile,

If you've had enough, what about taking direct steps to change the situation? Asking her to file for divorce leaves her in the driver's seat as far as the timeline, which could leave you in the same limbo in May’22 you were in back in May’21.

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Hi BL,

Yep I had been getting a life via exercising. Working out 3 times a week and physically I changed a lot and became rather sporty in fact.

Thing that never change much probably is I have not been meeting new people and my old group are coup up with life. Thus most of the time I actually been spending with the kids and that given her an opportunity to be away much too.

Cwarrior, I thought of it too. That it is to be initiated by me. Although some may see it like an excuse but I hate to be the one that drive the final blow to the family for my kids. I had a short conversation with them earlier. Younger boy mentioned he would want us to be together and elder one said he wishes to move out with me.

I do admit I had messed up doing the DB thing and such a couple of times over the years but now I am picking up my self worth. Perhaps at the current stage my mentality is, paper presented to me I will sign. But me taking the initiative to serve, I need to squeeze my balls a few more times first.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
I have not done anything to provoke / aggravate her and yet she is always behaving in that agitated manner.
One of my best friends is going through the same thing right now. Life hasn't met up to her expectations and right now she feels you are keeping her from having those expectations met. She feels like a caged animal. Time to open the caged door.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
Then she started to bring out the instant which I dragged her to the psychiatrist for evaluation. It’s the kind of scenario when they push u for a reaction that it crossed your line then they cried victim.
You didn't break her so you can't fix her.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
I told her to seek help for her issues.
Sounds controlling.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
She said she did try to see a therapist previously but the therapist could not help her.
No one can help her because she doesn't want to be helped.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
I recommend her to look for another one then.

You didn't break her so you can't fix her.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
She had been mostly cordial since then till now till this morning she messaged me saying that she intent to take my suggestion and proceed with the divorce.
You set yourself up for that one.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
She is suggesting that perhaps we can go out for dinner and talk in details about it. I told her it’s fine with me. I’ll leave the arrangement of the dinner to her.
The most overrated advice IMO given on this board. You want her to rethink her stance? Act like you can't wait to have the conversation.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
Then she mentioned she would like to buy over my share of our existing home, claiming that it’s better not to cause too much changes to the environment for the kids.
She has a valid point here.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
I told her I would want to consider about that because my initial thoughts was to divest the home if it brings better profit.

Is this true or a control thing?
Originally Posted by ToSmile
Later I found out from my helper that she has actually been talking to the kids these few days about separation again behind my back. No wonder I do notice my chaps feeling Abit down but was not able to catch up with them much as I was returning late from work these 2 days.
She shouldn't be doing that and I would speak to her about it.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
I think I had done enough and I just leave it to that. No regrets.
You faught dearly for your family and should be proud.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
A particular incident that happened a month ago also diminished whatever much memories I had of whom she once was. I had a very bad fall that led to a grade 2 ankle sprain while at home. I was on the ground for 5 mins and unable to get up. She witness it and after a while just asked, “u ok?†Then called out to the kids saying “ur dad had a bad fall†before walking away. My helper and the dog was showing even more concern than her.
She's dead inside right now.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
A wake up fall instead for me. So my intention now is, just go with the flow. Let her make the arrangements and I just go along with it.
Unless it conflicts with what is in your best interest.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
Always thought that perhaps things might be better due to her changes these 2-3 weeks but it comes back to this. And I told myself if she raised the topic of divorce up again, that would be the end of my stand.
Things always have to get worse before they get better. She has to go on this journey.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
Originally I thought of roughing it out for 6 years as that’s the typical max range for MLC that I read or for ever. But then I think is enough.
What makes you think it's MLC.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
3 years and 5 months since the bomb dropped. I accept the closure to my marriage and the person that I shared my life with.
You can walk away with your head held high.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
Although there’s some stirring within me still, it’s no longer as bad as before.
Time and space will do wonders for you.

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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Been a while. Hope everyone is well here.

Abit of update on my stitch. Overtime, I kinda have enough of her stance towards me and her way of trying to belittle or talk down to me. Thus I just let go. I told her, if she intents to divorce, let’s do it. There is no point that we are still staying together with her behaving like that in front of us daily.

She told me she was actually intending to wait for the kids to get bigger before doing so. And we can co parent under the same roof for now. I told her there will never be the right time and it is really also very suffocating for me to face her in this manner. I have not done anything to provoke / aggravate her and yet she is always behaving in that agitated manner.

I told her I leave it to her. If she would like to proceed, just do it but that does not solve the problem. For 3 over years, she had been treating me like that in and out. Then she started to bring out the instant which I dragged her to the psychiatrist for evaluation. I asked her, did she even remember why I did so? How was she behaving then that pushed me to that? She went quiet and said sorry thereafter. It’s the kind of scenario when they push u for a reaction that it crossed your line then they cried victim.

I told her to seek help for her issues. She said she did try to see a therapist previously but the therapist could not help her. I recommend her to look for another one then. Post then till now been about 3 weeks. She had been mostly cordial since then till now till this morning she messaged me saying that she intent to take my suggestion and proceed with the divorce. She is suggesting that perhaps we can go out for dinner and talk in details about it. I told her it’s fine with me. I’ll leave the arrangement of the dinner to her.

Then she mentioned she would like to buy over my share of our existing home, claiming that it’s better not to cause too much changes to the environment for the kids. I told her I would want to consider about that because my initial thoughts was to divest the home if it brings better profit. She said we can discuss about that and take my time to consider no problem.

Later I found out from my helper that she has actually been talking to the kids these few days about separation again behind my back. No wonder I do notice my chaps feeling Abit down but was not able to catch up with them much as I was returning late from work these 2 days.

I think I had done enough and I just leave it to that. No regrets. A particular incident that happened a month ago also diminished whatever much memories I had of whom she once was. I had a very bad fall that led to a grade 2 ankle sprain while at home. I was on the ground for 5 mins and unable to get up. She witness it and after a while just asked, “u ok?†Then called out to the kids saying “ur dad had a bad fall†before walking away. My helper and the dog was showing even more concern than her.

A wake up fall instead for me. So my intention now is, just go with the flow. Let her make the arrangements and I just go along with it. Always thought that perhaps things might be better due to her changes these 2-3 weeks but it comes back to this. And I told myself if she raised the topic of divorce up again, that would be the end of my stand. Originally I thought of roughing it out for 6 years as that’s the typical max range for MLC that I read or for ever. But then I think is enough.

3 years and 5 months since the bomb dropped. I accept the closure to my marriage and the person that I shared my life with. Although there’s some stirring within me still, it’s no longer as bad as before. I do look forward to some company but everyone’s kinda busy during this festive season and this is such a negative matter. So I think I’ll just get me some drinks later.

ToSmile, welcome back. I have to agree with BL. I see a lot of talk here, but not much action. Even her talking to the kids is just that, talk. Even if you meet her for dinner, that will be more talk.

My suggestion is to tell her to go file and then you can discuss the details. Likely she is going to try to make this a "joint" decision. "We've decided to get a divorce." My guess is that you will not like that. You want her to pull the ripcord, so you can look back and say you did everything you could, but that she just didn't want to stay married.

But ToSmile, I also have to point out that you are still trying to control her. Look at these statements.

"I told her there will never be the right time and it is really also very suffocating for me to face her in this manner.

I have not done anything to provoke / aggravate her and yet she is always behaving in that agitated manner.

If she would like to proceed, just do it but that does not solve the problem.

Then she started to bring out the instant which I dragged her to the psychiatrist for evaluation.

I told her to seek help for her issues.

I recommend her to look for another one then. "

You are still struggling with trying to fix her, control her, manipulate her to get what you want. What you want is commendable: A loving, committed wife that treats you with respect. However, you admit yourself that you've read on MLC and realize that they have to run their course. Whether that is 6 years, forever, or somewhere in between.

I can tell that you were still hoping that the "divorce me now" tact would have awaken her. How? Because she treats you decently for 3 weeks, and then acts ambivalent when you fall and hurt yourself. And you are surprised by that? Have you ever seen the movie "War Of The Roses"? In the movie that wife is "over" the marriage. The husband has a medical incident thinking it is a heart-attack. The wife doesn't come to the hospital. Afterwards, when questioned, she says "I didn't come because I got a premonition that you were dead. That made me happy." THAT is where your wife is and she has made that abundantly clear for 3+ years. So you fell and hurt yourself and she couldn't give a crap.......that is a WW!!

So I see you struggling because you fail to take action. You have made it clear for 3+ years that she should move forward with the D if that is what she wants. When she doesn't file, but nothing else changes, you grit your teeth and bear it......until you can't take it anymore and then you "remind" her that she should D you if that is what she wants. When she says she wants to wait you "urge" her to do it because "it is suffocating" for you.

Here is a stronger way to proceed: Set a date in your head. If she hasn't filed by that date, YOU GO FILE! You accuse her of playing the victim in relation to the psychiatrist, yet you are playing the victim because of her behavior and actions. You have no control over her behavior and actions. But you do over yours! So take action yourself instead of sitting back and feeling sorry for yourself. You don't deserve what she is doing to you.....and that stinks. But life isn't fair. You have to be willing to stand up for yourself.

I will reiterate...do not agree to dinner to discuss the D, especially when it hasn't even been filed! You guys are already disagreeing on the house, so a discussion will not go the way you want and it will not end well. Set a date. If she doesn't file before then, you go file. And then use mediation to "come to terms". Be aware, she will likely fight you on everything. It is what WWs do. So I'd highly highly highly suggest hiring a lawyer. One of the best things I did in my situation was get a consultation with wiht a lawyer. There is NO downside to getting a free consult so you can get an idea of what to expect.

ToSmile, 3+ years and you are in the same spot as before. If you really feel suffocated and cannot go on, then you need to be the one to pull the ripcord. Let us know how it goes.


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One point of clarification. When you pick a date, DO NOT TELL HER. The date is for you to take action, not to try and manipulate her.


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Guys,

Thanks for your comments.

I am actually looking at disposing the house in the open market because it will fetch profit and cash proceeds that I would need to furnish and fit my new place when I am going to get one.

At where I am, people actually paid cash over the valuation of residence and that comes handy as a new place gonna cost me another 50 to 70 grand to do up. If I only allow her to buy over my share in loan, I would be starting off with 0 cash proceeds. The house was bought through the loan of something like the 401k account and upon disposal, the proceeds will have to go back to the account.

Thus the decision to do that than just transfer my loan portion to her is not to control but I need the cash to move on easier.

Our joint joint counsellor called me earlier. She mentioned that she had spoken with my wife and my wife mentioned to her that she will asked me out to talk on the proceedings. I expected that it will not be something smooth as it come to this because as far her proposal had been to her benefits and convenience. However, I will talk everything business. My needs, my children needs when we walk away from what we built up over the years. The counsellor offered to be the mediator if we need to settle the terms and offered support services for the kids when they go through it.

If from the talk she delays still, I will prep myself on setting the date and do it. I had in fact already spoken to a lawyer and found out the charges and shared with him some documents and details. Will be just a matter of a phone call to activate the proceeding.

I can foresee the mess that is to come with it. Her family especially her mum will come and ask me what's wrong and isn't everything fine all those things all over again. I am thinking should I avoid them totally or just tell them the truth of what had actually transpired? After all, it's her family?


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Just remember that it’s the truth as you see it.

The correct response IMO would be “You should with your daughterâ€.

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ToSmile, sounds like you have an overall plan. Great! That is the key. You will feel much more settled with a plan in place.

As far as talking to people, especially her family? I say avoid it like the plague. This is between you and her. Not you and her family, or her and your family. It is nobody's business. A short answer to shortcut it it like "We are working through these things." "I am not comfortable discussing with you." Etc. Again, have a plan but I say that plan should be to NOT get into the details at all.


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Been signing up for courses and intend to carry out career transition into another industry.

Trying to stay relevant and ahead of the industry 4.0 and also my current job is taking up way too much of my time. To the extent that GAL seems to be mingling with my colleagues with the extended meetings post office hours that frequently eats into my exercise time too.

I have one question about DB. Might seems kinda weird to ask it now… but we are staying under one roof. When we bump into each other, do I give a cordial greeting or do I turn a blind eye on her? And if I leave the house, do I bid goodbye?

Reason I ask is, sometimes when I said good night or good bye, I get a response. Other times, I do not and as if I am talking to the air. I just thought it’s being courteous. But if this is an uncalled action during DB, I rather not do it. What’s your opinion?


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
I have one question about DB. Might seems kinda weird to ask it now… but we are staying under one roof. When we bump into each other, do I give a cordial greeting or do I turn a blind eye on her? And if I leave the house, do I bid goodbye?
Absolutely nothing wrong with being cordial.

Originally Posted by ToSmile
Reason I ask is, sometimes when I said good night or good bye, I get a response. Other times, I do not and as if I am talking to the air. I just thought it’s being courteous. But if this is an uncalled action during DB, I rather not do it. What’s your opinion?
Does it bother you when you don't get a response?

I lived with my ex for about 16 months while in the D process. If I came home and I saw her I would say "hi". If I went to bed and she was in my path I would say good night. I wouldn't go out of my way for either.

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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Been signing up for courses and intend to carry out career transition into another industry.

Trying to stay relevant and ahead of the industry 4.0 and also my current job is taking up way too much of my time. To the extent that GAL seems to be mingling with my colleagues with the extended meetings post office hours that frequently eats into my exercise time too.

I have one question about DB. Might seems kinda weird to ask it now… but we are staying under one roof. When we bump into each other, do I give a cordial greeting or do I turn a blind eye on her? And if I leave the house, do I bid goodbye?

Reason I ask is, sometimes when I said good night or good bye, I get a response. Other times, I do not and as if I am talking to the air. I just thought it’s being courteous. But if this is an uncalled action during DB, I rather not do it. What’s your opinion?

So in both of my sitches we were IHS. So I contemplated this a lot. The answer is to do what works for you. In general, letting her be the one to initiate is the best approach, but if you cannot do that without seeming like you are purposely ignoring her then I would suggest just a courteous, short greeting......with (THIS IS THE KEY) no expectation that she will respond. Kind of like when you tell someone something quick where no response is necessary. "Good morning." "Good evening." "Goodnight." Same with leaving the house. Do not seek her out to say goodbye, but if you come across her as you are heading out just a short "I am heading out. Bye." (Note, never tell her where you are going or doing!) With no expectation of acknowledgment or response.

The key is the no expectation. If she doesn't respond or give the same courtesy and that bothers you then drop the greetings and byes entirely! If she greets you or says goodbye, a cheerful response "Good morning!" or "Okay, goodbye!" is appropriate.

Look, IHS is tough. Maintaining proper DB techniques can seem cold, callous, and wrong. But remember that she is the one that asking for more space and walking away, so by backing off and not extending greetings or goodbyes is simply giving her what she has asked for. The key is to be upbeat, cheerful, fulfilled and pleased when she DOES engage. What you don't do isn't going to make things worse, so if that is your fear then you can drop that.

tldr; No expectations is key! If you can greet her and say goodbye without expectations, then that is ok. If it stings you every time she ignores you, then drop the greetings and goodbyes unless she says it first.


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Thanks for sharing your opinion LH and Steve.

Actually it does not really bothers me if she replies or not and so far I only greet or bid farewell when she happens to be around when I am leaving the house and such. Never go all the way to look for her to do that.

I was only thinking if it would be seemed as an act of smoothening because if it would, I would rather drop it all.

Recently, I hosted some closed friends that knew about the stitch over for festive gathering. Surprisingly, she joined in the session with us. And started to host everyone like how she used to be. Then halfway through, she went out for a while and after she came back, she sat down and drank with us.

My friends were puzzled. One of them text me the next day asking if everything's gotten back to how it was? I just laughed it off and shared with him nothing had gotten better. It's like the the Matrix. To her, I am the red pill while everything else is the blue pill ðŸ˜

To me, I also see a pattern that she always get into these "Ramp up Public Relation Strokes" with my family members or friends every time post mentioning divorce.

Last edited by ToSmile; 12/23/21 08:33 AM.

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What does an act of smoothening mean?

Yeah people who don’t know any better because they haven’t experienced it yet lol don’t understand. They think it’s like a fight or disagreement and you just get over it.

Yeah she doesn’t want to seem like the bad girl. It may help a little to understand she is just trying to be happy.

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True that LH.

It’s really to see us to believe. One would never understand or perhaps believe such is real until they go through it. Perhaps that’s what’s causing the LBH having much challenge to come to terms with it initially as it is so out of this world.

Sometimes, even claiming possessed by some supernatural beings seems to be even more convincing than this haha.


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TS you’re having a hard time dealing with the loss of control. It really has nothing to do with your W. Your entire life is being flipped upside and it’s panic inducing. With time and space you will see that is what this is all about it just takes time.

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Happy New Year Everyone,

Hope you had a good time with those that meant and matters. I been organizing family gatherings for the kids and with friends which they enjoyed much. W had been around for some of the times and when she is around, as usual she played the hospitable host before leaving halfway through. I just let her be. As like my friend mentioned, she's just trying to be the nice person.

Yesterday was the first day kids got back to school and the arrangement. My helper would normally pick them up after school but yesterday, the teacher called me half an hour past release time and no one went for my kids. I called home and Helper mentioned that W told her she will be picking up the kids. And when I called W, she mentioned that she thought helper will be doing it.

In this instance, I tend to side with the helper. Because in terms of responsibility, concern and care giving for the kids, the helper surpasses her in every area. W has the tenancy to forget about such matters. W mentioned she will be picking up the kids so I just let her go and perform her role than picking them up.

This morning, she brought up the matter of the house. Asking me what is my decision? If I would like to sell the share of the house to her, or dispose it in the open market? I told her definitely I am going for the open market choice. Because in that instance, I can free up the cash to offset the renovation and furnishing of my new place. If I sell my share to her, I will be walking away with zero profit unless she is going to compensate me for my opportunity cost.

She then told me that well, some of the furnishing in current home can be split between us. Which I mentioned how are we going to split the HVAC, the fridge, the cupboards etc? Then she told me that sure we can dispose of the house in the market. I can go and find out the value and update her (Do the ground works for her???). I told her nah. There would not be need for any research. Just engage a property agent and they will be keen to do the selling for you. I suggest to her that she can ask her friend whom she has been consulting with to do it for us or I can ask my relative to do it. She was a bit taken back and mentioned my relative? Then I said yeah. I have relatives in the line. We can see who can get a better rate for the sale.

After that, she brought up the care giving arrangement of the kids again. She asks if my parents can take care of the kids during weekdays? I told her nope. You can't expect my parents to do that. They may be able to help out once in a while when they are free but not assuming the care taking role. Then she start to suggest that she has the family car and maybe during week days she will manage the kids and we extend the engagement of our domestic helper whom had been with us for several years already to look after the kids.

I told her I am fine with the arrangement, provided the helper wishes to extend because she mentioned she may like to return to her country for a break before deciding to carry on working or not. And if not, we just let her go and get another one. Alternatively, we can place the kids in day care. But the Elder one would be too old for Day Care so he got to learn to be on his own.

Then she asked me about my Job if I am still going to be sticking around with my current company for long as I previously did mention about making a switch and tendering. I just mention well I still intend to move but currently I am just staying put for a while more because of some projects and allowing the dust in my life to settle down about.

Then she started smiling and said that she knows the company would surely counter offer me and I would not leave. I corrected her saying nope, I did not receive or accept any counter offer but in return, my load was reduced thus why I am able to be back earlier these days to be with the kids. But I will still move on. I told her don't get it wrong that I am being comfortable in my existing company. I am still here because it offers me the flexibility to take urgent time off to handle family matters and the kids. Through this years, I am the primary person who is taking all the leaves in terms of emergencies or when the kids are not feeling unwell she was not able to. She mentioned she understand.

I left for work after that. I'll just leave the ground work to her and provide my cooperation for the proceedings. But I think it's still gonna take a while. I think from time to time, she will try to get a reaction from me by bringing up the topic when she sees me getting by. But the impact and sting for me is getting lesser and lesser over time and I can feel the numbness of it. Just look ahead and move forth, making best of what I can in the future for the kids and myself.


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ToSmile,

Originally Posted by ToSmile
Yesterday was the first day kids got back to school and the arrangement. My helper would normally pick them up after school but yesterday, the teacher called me half an hour past release time and no one went for my kids... In this instance, I tend to side with the helper.
Don't side with the helper OR your W. Side with the kids. Make sure you're going above and beyond to see they're cared for despite your W's flakiness.

I think you need to re-read SteveLW's advice:
Originally Posted by SteveLW
I will reiterate...do not agree to dinner to discuss the D, especially when it hasn't even been filed! You guys are already disagreeing on the house, so a discussion will not go the way you want and it will not end well. Set a date. If she doesn't file before then, you go file. And then use mediation to "come to terms". Be aware, she will likely fight you on everything. It is what WWs do. So I'd highly highly highly suggest hiring a lawyer. One of the best things I did in my situation was get a consultation with wiht a lawyer. There is NO downside to getting a free consult so you can get an idea of what to expect.

You're talking to her about house valuations, house furnishings, child care arrangements, your current / future job prospects without any formal D filing or lawyers...be wary. No need to agree on these things unless you're clearly getting a good deal from her. You talk about your lawyer throughout this sitch, so hopefully you have a strong and clear understanding of what you're entitled to.

Originally Posted by ToSmile
This morning, she brought up the matter of the house. Asking me what is my decision? If I would like to sell the share of the house to her, or dispose it in the open market? I told her definitely I am going for the open market choice. Because in that instance, I can free up the cash to offset the renovation and furnishing of my new place. If I sell my share to her, I will be walking away with zero profit unless she is going to compensate me for my opportunity cost.
Not sure I understand this. I don't know your history/details, but assuming you bought the house together after marriage there's a good chance you're both entitled to half the equity in the house. You can base the current value on an average of realtors estimates, or a formal appraiser, or just make it up out of thin air. This is a negotiation. I kept our martial house and my ExW suggested buying her out at a value which was $10k under our original purchase price let alone the current value which had appreciated quite a bit. OK! No-brainer. She was cheating on and divorcing me, if she didn't do her due diligence to my favor, so be it. But whether you sell it on the open market or she buys you out of the equity, you'll get your share (assuming you negotiate a fair or beneficial valuation).

Originally Posted by ToSmile
She then told me that well, some of the furnishing in current home can be split between us. Which I mentioned how are we going to split the HVAC, the fridge, the cupboards etc?
Not sure I understand this either. HVAC and fridge and cupboards are typically just included in the overall house value and not pulled out separately. Furniture like beds, dressers, couches, TVs...etc can be negotiated. I was fortunate to keep the house and almost all the contents without compensation, but sometimes that's easier done for the person keeping the house. If you're intending to leave and it's possible she may stay make sure to put a value on everything and get a fair buy out. You can just write it off that value against the overall total payout at the end.

Originally Posted by ToSmile
Then she asked me about my Job if I am still going to be sticking around with my current company for long as I previously did mention about making a switch and tendering. I just mention well I still intend to move but currently I am just staying put for a while more because of some projects and allowing the dust in my life to settle down about.

Then she started smiling and said that she knows the company would surely counter offer me and I would not leave. I corrected her saying nope, I did not receive or accept any counter offer but in return, my load was reduced thus why I am able to be back earlier these days to be with the kids. But I will still move on. I told her don't get it wrong that I am being comfortable in my existing company. I am still here because it offers me the flexibility to take urgent time off to handle family matters and the kids. Through this years, I am the primary person who is taking all the leaves in terms of emergencies or when the kids are not feeling unwell she was not able to. She mentioned she understand.
No need to talk to her about your job and salary and new prospects. That's none of her concern anymore. This is a negotiation and that info can go to child support and spousal support. Keep your cards close to the vest.


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Hi BL42,

Yep I am definitely not going to compromise for a buy out of my share under valuation or even at a breakeven point.

At where I am, buyer pays premium on top of valuation. Thus if she wants to buy over my share, she got to pay that premium.

I know where she is coming at when she was asking about my work. Because at where I work presently, I do have the flexibility to be away as and when I need to. And this, back then during the times when we were fine greatly complements the family dynamics because she is in an occupation that does not allow so.

Why I am telling her that is because I don't want her to hope or expect that things will be the same. From all her suggestions, I feel she was testing water to try having her cake and eat it. Like buying out my share, my parents to help with the kids, the flexibility of my work arrangement etc. It's going to be different. Just like when she said we can be friends or co-parent still after we divorce but I told her I don't think I would want to remain as her friend.

This morning was a random session that she suddenly pop up when I getting ready to go out and no one is at home. More or less I have expected a talk like this will come from her in matter of time because I had previously also thought that the dinner will not happen. She would just take the chance of any random encounter like this to bring up this topic as she always did. Thus it gives me the feeling that she is testing the tempt once in a while to see my reaction. I have also thought of the scenario that once I receive the paper from her, I will tell her to give me a couple of days to run through with my lawyer and I will insert my terms before replying through my Lawyer.

That was something I told her before too at the start of the stitch when she asked me why can't we proceed the divorce on our own without a Lawyer to save cost? I told her I am not good at this. Anything can reply through my Lawyer. He represents my best interest.

Last edited by ToSmile; 01/06/22 03:44 AM.

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Recent days, W initiate some conversations with me on different topics and I just reply along. Her attitude was no longer as hostile as previous but I am not taking that as a sign or hope that things are getting better or what. However, I welcome this change as it makes the entire environment better.


Today, She passed the family car to me as I am bringing the kids for vaccination. She just requested me to drop her off work which I did. Before this happened, I also prep myself that she will be bringing up the divorce topic again and indeed she did. Our conversation as below and hope I validated well.

W: So with regards to the house, your intention is to get your relative to market it?

Me: I am fine with anyone as long the price is right

W: But we can't disposed off the house without signing the papers

Me: Why not? Then if have to then we get the papers signed

W: Before we sign the paper, we have to go for mandatory counselling again under the law as we have young kids.

Me: I thought we went for that previously?

W: The validity is only 2 years. If I am free, I will go for it as the attendance of either party will do.

Me: ok

W: How about the schooling for the kids? Are they going to the same school as planned or?

Me: May have to relocate. Subject to where I will be getting the new place.

W: So you will still be engaging your Lawyer?

Me: Yes.

W: Then it will be like me initiating the papers to you and you go through and reply via your Lawyer?

Me: That's right

W: But the terms will be the same as we discussed last time right (3 years ago)? and it will be additional expenses if you engage Lawyer too?.

Me: It's not about the Money.

-Silent-

W: Ok let's change topic

Then she started to bring up topic about investment with me and I just chat with her on that investment topic like a normal friend and the conversation just flow till I dropped her off.

At the same time, her grandmother also passed on yesterday. But she was living in another country and we are unable to attend to the funeral due to the current limitation on travelling. She is not very close with her grandmother too but I also contributed bereavement gift to the family.


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ToSmile, I am a little confused. Your condition allows you to operate a motor vehicle? But you cannot work? I am not an expert on neurological conditions, but I can say if a person has a condition that doesn't allow them to work, I probably will not allow my kids to ride in a car they are behind the wheel of.

Just trying to understand the nature of your situation. As I've said, yours is very complex, much more than most.

Finally, I love seeing you so much better in spirit! Your posts are not doom and gloom they way they were a few weeks ago. Very promising to see.


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SteveLW,
Originally Posted by SteveLW
ToSmile, I am a little confused. Your condition allows you to operate a motor vehicle? But you cannot work? I am not an expert on neurological conditions, but I can say if a person has a condition that doesn't allow them to work, I probably will not allow my kids to ride in a car they are behind the wheel of.
I think you're confusing "ToSmile" for "smilie" in the "Picking Up the Pieces After WAW Goes Again" thread, though certainly no one could blame you with such similar screen names.

ToSmile,
Originally Posted by ToSmile
She just requested me to drop her off work which I did.
What if instead of carting her around town and talking about the divorce you had fun plans of your own and didn't have time and she had to figure it out on her own?


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DOH! Thanks BL! Cadet or job, can you guys delete my response to ToSmile?


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I am not going to lie I have done that too lol.

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Hi BL,

Ain’t carting her around town and chatting divorce with her. Was just dropping her off work along the way and the topic was brought up. Normally I would have avoid such instances being alone with her. However yesterday there were different arrangements and kinda expect that coming too thus thinking how I would have managed it.

Also with the passing of her grandmother, although she looked fine in front of us and such, she mentioned she did cry a lot. I suggest to her that at this time, probably she should spend more time with her immediate family.


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Abit of catching up and hope everyone is good.

Been GAL, got my indoor gym set, hitting the weights, going out, focusing on the kids, getting back my past hobby (8 ball) and spending more time with family members the past couple of months.

Also started job hunting to move on from my current company which has quite a toxic culture that's affecting my well-being and is currently being shortlisted for a new position. Though it's in process, I am already feeling much more relief than before when I am not doing anything about it and being comfortable in my current position (I like to draw this comparison to how it was back then for me before I start GAL and do something for myself)

With the wife wise, still no progress so far though. I am not ready yet to be the one initiating the proceedings and she has yet really taken the step to file as well. This morning, like a broken recorder, she brought up to me again about the house. Are we going to keep or sell... are the divorce terms gonna be the same as we previously spoken (I have lost count of how many times she brought these up) and I just replied in a chirpy manner: Yep, sell and get a new place, Yep, terms same and proceed on busying with my stuffs and wish her bye as I left for work with her looking a bit taken aback haha.

I do think that I am at a better place than I was. I'll be honest that when she raised up the topic again, it affected me. But well, only for that hour or so and then I move on to embrace my day. It would be a waste to sulk it away over something that I can't do anything about.

I also had serious conversation with myself. If my wife is gonna do a 180 and embrace me now, how would I feel? Frankly, I will dodge and feel afraid. Very afraid. I feel she has some serious stuff that she has to work out herself and for what is to come, we will see how it goes when it comes. At times, I also start to double-take if I want her back.

For now, I just wish to update that, I am looking forward to news in my life. What new changes I can make and difference I can make, for myself and others. I had lived my life that way and I want to live it differently now. Although our situation is still pretty much in a standstill, I am kinda fine with that as at the present moment, I also do not think I am ready to get into another relationship and the kids are also doing pretty well recently.

One thing also, I am cutting down much on drinking as well and just nurse a pint or 2 during gathering and occasions. Hope to keep this streak going smile


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TS,

Yeah she brings up that stuff trying to get a reaction out of you. Great job not taking the bait. I suspect your monkey is looking for another branch to grab hold of right now. You are young enough if you want to take more time and GAL like a madman. It is my personal belief that these things are about timing and circumstances. I have zero problem with a “ this isn’t working for me and you are either in or you are out speechâ€. But obviously you have to follow through if she says your out. Things rarely get better on their own.

Onward and upward!

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Hi LH,

Yeah I thought so too. I can't really just live my life for her and be her Plan B... There are ladies out there whom are hoping that I can be their Plan A but just that I am not ready for it at the mean time and if yep, if I am out, I'll just hold my head high, smile and walk out the door without turning back.

At this moment, my focus will be on my career, self well being and my elder boy, who is having his middle school entry exam this year. Have to spend additional time to coach him in his school work and score the school he wishes to enroll in.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
One thing also, I am cutting down much on drinking as well and just nurse a pint or 2 during gathering and occasions. Hope to keep this streak going smile

ToSmile, congratulations on trying to get your drinking under control. However, if you think you have a problem at all, from personal experience, a total moratorium on drinking might be the only path forward. Social drinking for those of us that have a problem with alcohol can lead to overindulging, or even slipping back into old bad habits. 28 years ago I had to stop completely and never touch alcohol again, or else I would have just continued to spiral and be a problem drinker. If you think you are an alcoholic then there really is no such thing as moderation.


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ToSmile,

Good to hear from you. Glad you're doing well w/GAL and job search.

Originally Posted by ToSmile
With the wife wise, still no progress so far though. I am not ready yet to be the one initiating the proceedings and she has yet really taken the step to file as well.
You're coming up on 4 years since BD, right? That's a long time for IHS.

Originally Posted by ToSmile
I just replied in a chirpy manner: Yep, sell and get a new place, Yep, terms same and proceed on busying with my stuffs and wish her bye as I left for work with her looking a bit taken aback haha.
Haha, good job.

Originally Posted by ToSmile
I do think that I am at a better place than I was. I'll be honest that when she raised up the topic again, it affected me. But well, only for that hour or so and then I move on to embrace my day. It would be a waste to sulk it away over something that I can't do anything about.
Sounds like you're making progress with detachment. It'll affect you even less as time moves on.

Originally Posted by ToSmile
I also had serious conversation with myself. If my wife is gonna do a 180 and embrace me now, how would I feel? Frankly, I will dodge and feel afraid. Very afraid. I feel she has some serious stuff that she has to work out herself and for what is to come, we will see how it goes when it comes. At times, I also start to double-take if I want her back.
People often have a tendency to try to hold on tight to something when they're at risk of losing it, even if it's something they may not want as much when it's readily available.

Originally Posted by ToSmile
Although our situation is still pretty much in a standstill, I am kinda fine with that as at the present moment, I also do not think I am ready to get into another relationship and the kids are also doing pretty well recently.
Good you're steady and content. How old are your kids?

Originally Posted by ToSmile
One thing also, I am cutting down much on drinking as well and just nurse a pint or 2 during gathering and occasions. Hope to keep this streak going smile
That's great! Better for your health, physique, and possibly your relationships.

Originally Posted by LH19
I suspect your monkey is looking for another branch to grab hold of right now.
There was a strong indication of an affair, right? Any updates there?

Last edited by BL42; 05/09/22 09:04 PM.

Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
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Hi BL42,

Yeah, its coming to 4 years. My kids are 9 and 12 respectively and yeah, at times I do also wonder if there may be affair or OM but I just don't go and think of it.

The promise I made to myself is if there is one and I witness it myself, I will stop sending and proceed immediately with the serving of the papers. Otherwise, I do not wish to be involved or dwelling in what she is doing. It would be tough for me to move on. So I channel my energy and everything to my kids and myself smile

With regards to the drinking portion, Steve yeah I think I might be an alcoholic and the longest streak that I stop drinking is about a week lol. It's the only "vice" I keep now. I used to smoke, and quite heavily to keep me going with the daily stress and etc. Till I quite smoking cold turkey years back. I turned to drinks.

On normal days (like most days lol), I do 2-3 drinks. Heaviest I go when drinking alone is around 6 drinks. But yeah. I am working towards refraining except for occasions. I think it's like that saying.... you become a smoker when you start to buy your own cigarette than smoking what others offer you and an alcoholic when you start to drink alone...


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Are you in IC?


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5 Years I stood.

Well I made the choice. Got off the forum for a while to live my life, changed a new job and try to focus on the dynamics of me and my children only, tell myself that as long as she did not cross my line (Being involved with another person), I just see where it takes us and she can go YOLO and enjoy her freedom and space.

She treats me the same. Seeing me like enemy, once in a while speaking about divorce and pushing the papers to me. Though I told her to attention it to my lawyer, she never did because her family stepped in and stopped it when she mentioned about divorce.

Inside me, I was holding to the hope that she would come to, or the effect of this wayward or what will wear off like after 5-6 years (the magic number I gave to myself because that's what I read online being the longest period for someone to come to or never)

But well, I was wrong to tend to believe and reality points me to really the outcome I have to face. For this 5 years, she is still with the person she claimed to have EA with 5 years ago. Why did I know?

She tried to introduced him to our kids again, albeit with the guy using a different name this time. Thinking that the kids would forgot about it. The guy sending her back home when I was outstation, and informed to me by my neighbors. At first I was wondering who this guy is, coming into our family life and seemingly trying to take up the presence of the father to my kids. Because when she brought the kids out, she would not allow me to tag along but would always try to invite this guy here.

Upon the kids and neighbor's description of his features, I shared a old group photo and immediately, they pointed him out.

I am piecing myself together now to take action. I am also contemplating of getting a private investigator for evidence first before any actions in order to better my chances of having full care and control for the children. I do not mind sharing the custody of children, but I would want to be the primary care giver to the children, though the law from where I am gives preference to women.

However, the Private investigation fee gonna cost. I am not sure If I would want to jump to the proceeding straight, or gather evidence first to strip her lying mask. The kids are older now and they themselves realize what is happening and they wanted to follow me than her. And right now, she is trying to kinda bribe the kids by buying them expensive gifts and such, claiming that I brainwashed them etc (the kids told me that).

It's tough and I think it's gonna get tougher. But this can no longer go on, and it's affecting my focus at work and with tasks. I got to put an end to it in order for us to live our lives. It's really shameless of her to introduce the guy to the children as what she did years ago. Kids are now also very disappointed with her and having strong resentment towards the guy.

Now as I am considering on the options of the investigations, I am also reaching out to my lawyers to set the plans for next actions.

Returning here for support in this journey....


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