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Yeah the part with regards to the house, I understand things may escalate if I chase them away but if she gonna tune up the heat then let that be the trigger for me to proceed.

I did ask her if she ever thought how I would feel about it when she invited that person over? She mentioned no and claimed that friend was not in the picture. I reminded to her if she had forgotten the role of this friend whom was trying to matchmake? Then I told her if it was unintentional, I let it slide this time round but this is my boundary and do not cross it.

Yes I do note that there is a potential that her change would be permanent. I also asked myself if I am ready to move on with another person after I close this chapter? For a while, I think the answer to myself is always no. Because I kinda feel sick about it and could not quite bring myself to go through everything again. I'm pretty happy to have my kids already and I think I am good to be on my own.

I also monitor my kids happiness very closely. The arrangement will only be as above as long as my kids are happy in current environment and does not affect them. I also arranged counselling for them and check in time to time with the counsellors and my helper for third party feedback of their emotional well being.

So far I know, the feedback kind of consistent. From counsellors, the siblings are very close with each other, me and their grandparents. Mum came last. With helper, the elder one always complaint that when mum is around, she always task him around and he does not like her around. They felt that when she was there, they are always being reprimanded for anything.

She has a habit of tasking them something and just leaving it to them without walking them through, knowing it's disaster to happen. Thereafter when they screw it up, then she started reprimanding them. And when talking to her about it, her defense always is this was how her mum taught her last time. But she never seem to excel in any of those skills anyway even though she always claimed this was how she's taught and its the right way. Ie: Just passing the knife to the kids and asking them to peel potato skins without demo. I warned they would cut themselves. She mentioned it's ok. Ended up cutting themselves. Asking them to cut chili with bare hands. I told her to let them remove the spiciness on their hand by rubbing their hands with orange or lemon skin thereafter or they will rubbed their eyes and get hurt by it. Which came true. And every time my "predictions" come true, it does not sit well with her. But most of such I feel is just common sense and the patience to walk the kids through if you want to teach them a skill. Not the "I was taught this way too".


But saying that, I know that the kids love her still and does yearn for whom she had been. Thus I just encourage them by saying we love them just in different ways. Hopefully she understand that the kids are growing up fast and they are registering what's happening. You can no longer brush them off events by offering a lollipop or taking them to ice cream treat. Such memories stay with them.

At least for the next few years, when the kids are more grown up and able to fend themselves, then I will be more comfortable of leaving them with her alone. Unlike for now to the point when she mentioned she will take care of the kids breakfast, but when they woke up and told her they are hungry she ask them to just go drink some water while she sleep away.


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ToSmile, I think your biggest struggle is in trying to exert control over her. You only get control of one person in this life, and that is you! That is what I was trying to get you to see with your "boundary". Your boundary isn't so much a boundary as much as it is a directive. "Thou shall not bring friend to the house!" That is more the type of restriction you would put on a child, not on an equal.

And then the struggle with how she parents. You seem to try to control her parenting style, even though, at its root level, it is just different than yours. Is her style old-school? Sure. Could she be better at teaching them things? Of course. But unless it is truly endangering the child I do not understand trying to micromanage her to that level.

Even your "patience" of three years seems more of trying to exert control. I feel like there is more going on here. Her leaving for 2 months and returning was probably more about her needing a place to live and needing money to sustain her lifestyle than it was about really wanting to return. Especially based on the fact that she returned but has continued to push for a D. ToSmile, I think you have to decide if you are willing to live with her during this limbo period....with no control over her, or to push for D. I do not see a middle ground here. You are struggling because you want control over what you have no control over.

Trust me, I've been there! It is one of the hardest things to face, that you have no control over her, or whether you get a D, etc. But you are going on 2 years here, and you continue to struggle with control issues related to her, who she is around (IE this friend you have so much issue with), and how she handles the kids. It has to be exhausting for you!


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
I did ask her if she ever thought how I would feel about it when she invited that person over? She mentioned no and claimed that friend was not in the picture. I reminded to her if she had forgotten the role of this friend whom was trying to matchmake? Then I told her if it was unintentional, I let it slide this time round but this is my boundary and do not cross it.

Wow TS this is very weak and controlling. You sound more like her dad then her husband.[/quote]
Originally Posted by ToSmile
Yes I do note that there is a potential that her change would be permanent.

More then likely permanent
Originally Posted by ToSmile
Because I kinda feel sick about it and could not quite bring myself to go through everything again.

This feeling will fade with time.
Originally Posted by ToSmile
I also monitor my kids happiness very closely.

How is this measured?
Originally Posted by ToSmile
At least for the next few years, when the kids are more grown up and able to fend themselves, then I will be more comfortable of leaving them with her alone.

Sounds like a horrible situation for then next few years

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Hi Steve and LH,

The portion you pointed out on the controlling her like a child resonated with me. I had read in another marriage help book that mentioned about setting boundary and treating her like a rebel teenage daughter. That is exactly what I am doing and subconsciously is controlling without letting go. Treating her like a grown woman that regressed into a teenager in order to make sense of the current situation to stay sane all this while. Thus it affects me when things "does not go my way". Setting an invisible perimeter that as long as she does not step out of it, all is fine with me. But instead the perimeter should be only with me in it, if I am setting up a boundary.

True that she does teach the kids in better ways than me at other areas. But I only step in during situations when I see some stupid things gonna happen next and provide my suggestions. True that it could also be an opportunity for the kids to learn themselves but I just feel it's kinda unfair for them to perform something to expectation without even communicating / demonstrating to them how to do it then reprimand them for it.

Well I monitored my children happiness through checking with them on how they are feeling frequently in terms of at home / school / friends and what they look forward to etc. Anything troubling them, any concerns and also try to get feedback from the counsellors how the kids feel about the family dynamics, are they comfortable around with us, trust us, do they think they can talk to us about their feelings etc. Thus ask far if they do not sound out any special concern and are feeling positive and happy, I guess that's should be good for them.

Next couple of years may be tough. I am not very sure. I am living a day a time now trying to improve myself through exercising, diverting my thoughts elsewhere and focus on the kids. Steve, you mentioned you been there. How did it end out for you?


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Steve, you mentioned you been there. How did it end out for you?





I would direct you to my threads for details. But what I was saying for having been there, was coming to terms with not having control over her and over the situation. I actually embraced the fact that I had no control over her right away. Our 2017 sitch was our second, the first being in 2005. So I had been through Divorce Busting and read MWD's material, and watched her videos. I had received her emails (not sure if she still does the emails or not). So I fell back to what I had learned in 2005, when BD in 2017 happened. I relinquished control of her right away, realized that she was going to to do what she was going to do, and I had no control over her.

Where I struggled was with the first 2 months everything I did, DBing, backing off and giving her space, GAL, focusing on me, 180ing, and trying to emotionally detach, I was doing all of that trying to control the situation. Trying to prevent a D from happening. Everything I did was focused on trying to save my marriage. What I learned during the rest of my sitch was to let go of trying to save my marriage, and therefore trying to control my sitch. This is where the magic of DBing lies! The LBSs that flourish are the ones that realize, and embrace, the fact that they have no control over whether or not they end up D'd. What they do have control over is being happy no matter WHAT happens with their marriage. It involves dropping fear of the unknown, and understanding that the time past this current moment is ALL unknown.

One of the ways that helped me was to look at it as if my spouse were to have suddenly passed away. We have no control over that, and if and when that happens we eventually have to get past the fear of the unknown our future now faces, pick ourselves up by our bootstraps, and move forward.

LH has some good posts related to lack of control and the fear that comes from it, as well as dropping that fear and realizing that you have no control. ToSmile you will continue to struggle with the current cycle you are in until you come to grips with your lack of control over what happens. It sounds like what you are doing is when she coasts along for a few week without mentioning D, your fear of the unknown and lack of control over the future begins to ease. Then when she invariably reminds you that she still wants a D, you start to spin again due to the fear at the lack of control.

My response at the suggestion of a anti-D expert (not MWD) was to set a drop dead date that I could live with. Not so far out in the future that I still felt that fear of lack of control over my future, but far enough out that I could say I gave her plenty of time to change her mind and move forward without regrets. The suggestion from the author during the consultation session was 1 year. I cannot tell you how freeing having that drop dead date in place was! Knowing that on that date I was going to contact a lawyer and file for D myself gave me a sense of control over my future, event though I still had the short-term lack of control.

The outcome (whether it ended up in D or R) is irrelevant. Embracing the fact that you have no control over the outcome is where the secret sauce is.

Last edited by SteveLW; 04/16/21 11:55 AM.

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Thank you so much for your sharing Steve.

Would love to be directed to your thread. I like the part on pretending she passed away and there’s nothing I can do about. Currently the method I use which I learnt elsewhere was treating that she had gone mad to make myself feel better. But perhaps in this way, there is still the attachment that I should not let her go as she is mad, not gone.

The exchanges these 2 days with you and LH certainly has some impact on me in terms of realisation and reflecting on myself and actions. Would need some digestion and arrangement of thoughts on my end, for myself. For now I try to imagine that I am in a center of a sphere, and just mind my business within the sphere with things that matter to me and I can change. And she is out of the sphere.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
Thank you so much for your sharing Steve.

Would love to be directed to your thread. I like the part on pretending she passed away and there’s nothing I can do about. Currently the method I use which I learnt elsewhere was treating that she had gone mad to make myself feel better. But perhaps in this way, there is still the attachment that I should not let her go as she is mad, not gone.

The exchanges these 2 days with you and LH certainly has some impact on me in terms of realisation and reflecting on myself and actions. Would need some digestion and arrangement of thoughts on my end, for myself. For now I try to imagine that I am in a center of a sphere, and just mind my business within the sphere with things that matter to me and I can change. And she is out of the sphere.


ToSmile sounds good. I will post a link to my threads.

Oh, and you are going to be ok! You have this and there are brighter days ahead.


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Originally Posted by ToSmile
True that she does teach the kids in better ways than me at other areas. But I only step in during situations when I see some stupid things gonna happen next and provide my suggestions.

TS you sound like a very smart man but these are the kind of comments that I bet go you into trouble. Love is playful and kind. Do you see how enforcing boundaries and lecturing may have worn on your W over the years?

Just an observation.

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Hi ToSmile,

I'm getting you feel your parenting style is better. The thing is, unless hers is abusive or negligent, you each control only 50% of the parenting. If you feel she's abusive or negligent, act to take primary or full custody. If you feel she's not abusive or negligent, cultivate acceptance and appreciating other ways of doing things.

As for my kids and using knives in the kitchen, my approach falls in-between you two. I teach them safe knife usage, then leave it up to them to figure out their way or ask for my way. My S11 often asks for help and prefers tried-and-true techniques. My D16 often finds her own way and outperforms traditional ways.

"Safe" knife usage (to me) means they won't cut themselves if the blade slips.

Originally Posted by ToSmile
I warned they would cut themselves. She mentioned it's ok. Ended up cutting themselves.

Did they go to the ER for stitches or say "Ow!" and learn from it? Based on their age, their technique, and the task--did you believe there was a serious risk of amputation or nicking an artery?

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It sounds like you have many great ideas, e.g. using lemon peels to cleanse your hands from chilis. I've personally used soap. Now I'm curious about the pros and cons of each! I personally think your parenting style is solid and it's wonderful you're so focused on your kids' health and happiness.

If you ever watched the Smurfs, I'd say we should aspire to be more like Papa Smurf (who shared good ideas when asked) and less like Brainy Smurf (who shared good ideas ALL THE TIME).

I DO very occasionally offer unsolicited advice--e.g., I saw a lady really struggle downclimbing one section of a mountain, and she stopped and stared apprehensively at the next when there was an easier way.

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