A year on and standing 2

[SteveLW]

Wow. Tosmile welcome back, but boy are you foundering. You are like a disabled ship that hasn't sunk yet, but is no longer moving either. You appear to be drifting in the current, with no clear direction.

I see above a failed attempt to listen and validate. "I told her I understand how she felt, and sometimes it's too much and just try to validate her messages. But I also reminded her that she was the one who mentioned to let it go then, why bringing all these up now?"

I see a lot of capitulation. On buying the other house. On having your parents care for the kids. On getting a dog (did you really agree to get a dog right after BD?!?). I do not see a lot of behavior on your part that is commanding respect. It is as if you are trying to nice her back. To quote one of the most wise posters on this board: YOU CANNOT NICE HER BACK!! Look what happens when you give in to her? She blames you: "She was the one who wanted to buy the dog we are having now 2 years ago. But because of the responsibilities, now she's telling the children I was the one who wanted the dog and bought it????" How's that capitulation working out for you?

Where is your GAL? I do not see any mention of you going out and doing things. I see you sitting home, watching her like a hawk. "One thing I do note that she seldom have late nights out now days but she would go out for short periods during the day during the weekends. And ever since my parents stopped coming over, she's returning home more frequently for dinner." How is noting her behavior helping your situation? Do you think watching her like this makes you more or less detached?

Tosmile, you also are expressing a feeling of being stuck. And you are! (See ship analogy above.) So what are YOUR plans? I see you mentioning her draft and that nothing else has been done. You are like a man with your head in a guillotine waiting for the blade to drop. What an awful place to be in!

So, it has been two years. Do you want to be here, in this same place, probably with even more capitulation to her, in another two years? I highly suggest you set a date. "On 7/18/2021, if she still isn't fully committed back to the marriage, then I will go hire my own lawyer and file for divorce." Tosmile, your last post makes me sad. It shows me a man that has been completely emasculated because he is afraid. Fear will cause you to do the wrong things, to be stuck, to continue to be unattractive to your STBXW (can you say lack of respect?).

So, what are you going to do? Forget her. Forget trying to save the marriage. What are you going to do to save yourself? What are you going to do to teach your kids that it is not okay for them to be abused the way you have been for the last two years? What if you were one of your kids, and she was one of their spouses? Would you want them to tolerate what you've been tolerating?

[ToSmile]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your reply, something to shake me awake more too.

What I had been doing this period was:

1. Continue going out as and when, and skipping going over to her place to dine with my in laws when I do not feel like to
2. Keeping up with my exercising routine
3. Get things that I like and splurge on myself
4. Stopped sharing ride to work in the morning as I noted the day starts better for me that way then being on a journey with her

Her behavior was something that I noted recently which have affected my detachment I supposed. I would have thought that things might be improving and thus sub-consciously starts being nice although I keep reminding myself of the analogy that she is in the castle and I am out there having a picnic and ignore her until she get out of the bridge and get close herself.

On the Dog part, yeah, it was just after BD back then and I was thinking of giving it in to her if she wish to have one because she loves dogs. But then over time I note that its she loves dog but not taking care of dog which now the dog is mostly the responsibility of the Helper and she painted the impression to the kids that I am the one who wanted the dog. This is also because she had been telling the kids they have responsibility over the dog to take care of it as well (Clearing it's poo and pee) but when when the kids questioned her back on her responsibility, she claims I am the one who wanted the dog.

And indeed, I am afraid. I am actually quite worry for my children on how they may react. I know that sandi post had mentioned before that some LBS may use children as an excuse to indeed take that step but this hesitation crossed my mind again last week when I was casually chatting with my son and he mentioned that are we separating? They would not want us to separate. Thus, this was a big part that is affecting me and I am looking for to understand more of what he really things when the counselling session for them resumes next week (it was halted due to the pandemic) that I would like to find out from a third party how they are really taking this. As both chaps are very sensitive and they seldom portray their real emotions for worries of being a burden or hurting someone.

The thoughts did come to my mind. Setting a deadline. If by that date and it's still such nonsense, we'll just call it a day with me taking the initiative. But it just stopped at that when my thoughts switched back to the 2 kids. I have also considered that it is an unhealthy situation that what kind of understanding they are getting for a marriage to be watching us as examples. I will have to set my foot down...

[LH19]

TS,

So I just went back and read your opening thread and I think it's really time to think about what your standing for and what you want out of the second half of your life. Your W is a kook who doesn't respect you or marriage.

I know you you are worried about your children but the truth is that they will be better with a normal and stable parent 50% of the time. It will likely be many, many years if ever that you see a reappearance of your old wife.

You make mention of your W being like Wolf's wife well the is about the bottom of the barrel for WWs.

Show your children what a strong male looks like.

[ToSmile]

Hi LH,

Yes you are right. The last thing I want is also my Sons to think/feel that this is how a marriage should be and how a wife behaves to her husband.

She can live her life but to respect the boundaries while I stood. But then, the reconciliation window is closing and to be frankly, it's a matter of time I'll just proceed to serve. I can feel it. Just to get my ducks together.

One thing I indeed cannot accept is her disrespectful behavior which she portray indirectly through physical and verbal cues. I don't owe her that.

[ToSmile]

Half a year pass by since my previous post and hope everyone's good during this trying Covid times.

For this half year, I had been minding my own business, work out, focus on the kids, but reduce in going out and get a life as most weekends the kids are with me and I just spend my time accompanying them.

She remain staying in the study room and carry on with her own routine. Less in Feb this year, she invited a friend whom she claimed she had discontinued contact with to our place that crossed my boundaries. This friend of hers was someone whom supported her EA back and I confronted my wife about it. She claimed that she invited her as she felt she was not an involved party but I made my stand to her. Such person are not welcomed.

Then things went back to "norm" and in March I celebrated her birthday with the kids.

And yesterday, her mom's best friend passed away and she went over to accompanied her mom as she was very affected by it. After she's back in the evening, she proceed to crusade about the divorced again. She laid out 2 options to me. Either we carry on status quo, and divorce years later when the kids grow up, or we divorce and stay under the same roof and bring the kids up together.

I told her, she had always been making plans about divorce and thought that everything will end up according to her game plan. What makes her think I would still want to stay with her after we divorce? I've got to move on. I got to have my own life. I ain't gonna be still standing here anymore. But, I am not stopping her to proceed. I understand what she wants and she can just serve the letter to my lawyer.

She keep saying that she want a divorce with me to put a closure to our relationship and after that she can talk to me normally like a friend. Then she claims that I am stopping the divorce as I am not allowing overnight access of kids to her and taking the kids away from her than we originally agreed on shared access. I told her I came to that conclusion as she had emotionally threatened my kid till he almost killed himself and thus, I am standing firm on this.

I told her if she really want to divorce, just serve to my lawyer. She then claim she had done so previously which I mentioned I had not receive any notification from my lawyer? Then she said it was the draft that was prepared by her lawyer's admin that she emailed to me. I told her please, just forward the proper version to my lawyer and not something by someone unqualified which I could draft even better than.

Next she start to bring out all the nonsense form the past again which I got so tired of and after some minor exchange with her, I told her I am tired. Just wish to rest on a positive mood and these exchanges are pointless. Before she left the room, she asked me so what is the conclusion of this talk? I told her I leave it to her. Then she mentioned that our counsellor offered to mediate for our divorce if we need her to and walked out.

The reason I post this after a while is because:

1. Got to be frank I am slightly affected by the session last night as such talks are draining. Need to get it off the chest.

2. I am not feeling as bad as I was before and focus that I have to be strong

3. It becomes more and more clear to me over the days how freaking selfish she is (which WAWs are anyway)

4. Feeling kinda ridiculous that she expects me to adhere to her playbook and plan even after we divorce

5. Felt the exasperation in her when she felt that I am not in her control

6. Well if she's gonna serve, I gonna sign and move on. Ain't looking back anymore. I am one when I am in relationship, I stay committed and give it my all. But once I move on, that's it. I can't phantom being around with someone in that manner. Then it would be my turn finding it hard to breath.

7. I just don't like the way she play nice in front of me to the kids. I know and was told by my helper too that when I am not around, the kids got it rough from her. But when I am around, she became so engaged with them. But for this portion, I leave it to the kids to see through their mom. What I can do is to arrange for more counselling for them in the meantime to prep them better.

8. I also note that she had an enabling mother that's not making the situation matter encouraging her on in funny ways.

9. She is still in a mess. just like recently she got into several accidents and instead of reflecting on her carelessness, the blame is on the car and she wanted to sell the car away and get a new one. Like how it is for family as well?

10. I just need some support and peace. Have not reach out for a while. Am also planning a weekend out with friends as she will be bringing the kids for staycation.

But the rope in my hand has dropped. I may wept for the past, but I have to smile for the future.

[LH19]

Less in Feb this year, she invited a friend whom she claimed she had discontinued contact with to our place that crossed my boundaries. This friend of hers was someone whom supported her EA back and I confronted my wife about it. She claimed that she invited her as she felt she was not an involved party but I made my stand to her. Such person are not welcomed.

So this sounds more controlling then a boundary. So what were the consequences of her crossing that boundary?

Then things went back to "norm" and in March I celebrated her birthday with the kids.

Cake eating so I assume she enjoyed the cake.

She laid out 2 options to me. Either we carry on status quo, and divorce years later when the kids grow up, or we divorce and stay under the same roof and bring the kids up together.

Sorry W but neither of thos options work for me.

I've got to move on. I got to have my own life.

I agree!

I ain't gonna be still standing here anymore.

So what is your plan?

She keep saying that she want a divorce with me to put a closure to our relationship and after that she can talk to me normally like a friend. Then she claims that I am stopping the divorce as I am not allowing overnight access of kids to her and taking the kids away from her than we originally agreed on shared access. I told her I came to that conclusion as she had emotionally threatened my kid till he almost killed himself and thus, I am standing firm on this.

I am confused by what you mean.

I told her if she really want to divorce, just serve to my lawyer. She then claim she had done so previously which I mentioned I had not receive any notification from my lawyer? Then she said it was the draft that was prepared by her lawyer's admin that she emailed to me. I told her please, just forward the proper version to my lawyer and not something by someone unqualified which I could draft even better than.

This sounds like a useless conversation

Next she start to bring out all the nonsense form the past again which I got so tired of and after some minor exchange with her, I told her I am tired. Just wish to rest on a positive mood and these exchanges are pointless. Before she left the room, she asked me so what is the conclusion of this talk? I told her I leave it to her. Then she mentioned that our counsellor offered to mediate for our divorce if we need her to and walked out.

This sounds like a useless conversation

TS your situation sounds horrible and I think it may be time for you to push the D through or separate. IHS is brutal and soul sucking and it sounds like it is taking it's toll on you.

[SteveLW]

Half a year pass by since my previous post and hope everyone's good during this trying Covid times.

For this half year, I had been minding my own business, work out, focus on the kids, but reduce in going out and get a life as most weekends the kids are with me and I just spend my time accompanying them.

She remain staying in the study room and carry on with her own routine. Less in Feb this year, she invited a friend whom she claimed she had discontinued contact with to our place that crossed my boundaries. This friend of hers was someone whom supported her EA back and I confronted my wife about it. She claimed that she invited her as she felt she was not an involved party but I made my stand to her. Such person are not welcomed.

Then things went back to "norm" and in March I celebrated her birthday with the kids.

And yesterday, her mom's best friend passed away and she went over to accompanied her mom as she was very affected by it. After she's back in the evening, she proceed to crusade about the divorced again. She laid out 2 options to me. Either we carry on status quo, and divorce years later when the kids grow up, or we divorce and stay under the same roof and bring the kids up together.

I told her, she had always been making plans about divorce and thought that everything will end up according to her game plan. What makes her think I would still want to stay with her after we divorce? I've got to move on. I got to have my own life. I ain't gonna be still standing here anymore. But, I am not stopping her to proceed. I understand what she wants and she can just serve the letter to my lawyer.

She keep saying that she want a divorce with me to put a closure to our relationship and after that she can talk to me normally like a friend. Then she claims that I am stopping the divorce as I am not allowing overnight access of kids to her and taking the kids away from her than we originally agreed on shared access. I told her I came to that conclusion as she had emotionally threatened my kid till he almost killed himself and thus, I am standing firm on this.

I told her if she really want to divorce, just serve to my lawyer. She then claim she had done so previously which I mentioned I had not receive any notification from my lawyer? Then she said it was the draft that was prepared by her lawyer's admin that she emailed to me. I told her please, just forward the proper version to my lawyer and not something by someone unqualified which I could draft even better than.

Next she start to bring out all the nonsense form the past again which I got so tired of and after some minor exchange with her, I told her I am tired. Just wish to rest on a positive mood and these exchanges are pointless. Before she left the room, she asked me so what is the conclusion of this talk? I told her I leave it to her. Then she mentioned that our counsellor offered to mediate for our divorce if we need her to and walked out.

The reason I post this after a while is because:

1. Got to be frank I am slightly affected by the session last night as such talks are draining. Need to get it off the chest.

2. I am not feeling as bad as I was before and focus that I have to be strong

3. It becomes more and more clear to me over the days how freaking selfish she is (which WAWs are anyway)

4. Feeling kinda ridiculous that she expects me to adhere to her playbook and plan even after we divorce

5. Felt the exasperation in her when she felt that I am not in her control

6. Well if she's gonna serve, I gonna sign and move on. Ain't looking back anymore. I am one when I am in relationship, I stay committed and give it my all. But once I move on, that's it. I can't phantom being around with someone in that manner. Then it would be my turn finding it hard to breath.

7. I just don't like the way she play nice in front of me to the kids. I know and was told by my helper too that when I am not around, the kids got it rough from her. But when I am around, she became so engaged with them. But for this portion, I leave it to the kids to see through their mom. What I can do is to arrange for more counselling for them in the meantime to prep them better.

8. I also note that she had an enabling mother that's not making the situation matter encouraging her on in funny ways.

9. She is still in a mess. just like recently she got into several accidents and instead of reflecting on her carelessness, the blame is on the car and she wanted to sell the car away and get a new one. Like how it is for family as well?

10. I just need some support and peace. Have not reach out for a while. Am also planning a weekend out with friends as she will be bringing the kids for staycation.

But the rope in my hand has dropped. I may wept for the past, but I have to smile for the future.

Tosmile, welcome back. Sorry you are still dealing with this. Unfortunately, I think you thought time would change her mind and it hasn't. What we know from your post is:

- She still wants a D
- She is still too lazy to make the D happen on her own
- She has some crazy post-D fantasies (Living together after D??!?)

Before I say what I think you should do, just a small 2x4 on the "boundary" with the friend. Boundaries are very misunderstood by LBSs, especially LBHs. Your boundary is more about controlling her, than taking action yourself.

Your boundary is: Friend cannot come to house.

What your boundary should look like is: Friend is not welcome to house. If friend comes over, or is invited by STBXW, I will take the kids and leave until she is no longer at the house.

Boundary setting is about setting the boundary: "Friend not welcome at house." Followed by YOUR action if boundary is crossed: "I will take the kids and leave until friend is no longer at the house."

Your boundary is about controlling her. The boundary should be about controlling you!

Okay, so here is what I think you should do:

At this point you have stood for your marriage for quite a while. No one could look at you ToSmile and say you haven't done everything you could to save your marriage. I am not a proponent of limbo going on indefinitely. In my own sitch I set a dropdead date. One year past BD, if she wasn't fully committed back to the marriage, I would go file myself.

At this point I would highly suggest you set such a date. She has shown that she is all talk and no action. She wants you to do the work of the D. During the limbo period it is not advisable for you to push the D forward, but as stated above that should not remain open-ended. As you said you have a life to live, you need to move forward at some point.

So when your dropdead date comes (or if it is already here or past), then I suggest you either:

1. Take her up on the offer to let counselor mediate a D settlement. This has the benefit of letting you express to her that things like living together after Dis not an option. WASs, and WSs in particular, love to try to have their cake and eat it too. Her efforts to get you to agree to this arrangement let's her continue to play house, while freeing her to go play the field as a single woman. I do not blame you one bit for not wanting that!

2. Go and file for D yourself, and work out details of the D settlement with your lawyer before presenting it to her. This is advantageous in that either a) she will be too lazy to fight it and just accept the settlement as presented, or b) be forced to hire her own proper lawyer to look over the settelement and work with your lawyer on a compromise.

The nice thing about both approaches is that 50/50 child custody can be established and post-D living arrangements could be settled out.

ToSmile, one word of caution, often times faced with the daunting task of post-D child swaps and finding suitable lodging, WASs/WSs will opt to remain married. Not because they want to stay and be your spouse, but because the alternative is too difficult. So they will see staying in the marriage (for now) as the lesser of the two evils. The problem is that if you agree to that then you will be right back into your limbo you find yourself now. You won't prevent the D, you'll just postpone it, since the WSs is still looking for their plan A.

I would caution you that once your dropdead date is reached that you do not succumb to the WS trying to "stay married out of convenience". Once that dropdead date is hit, you move forward with your life without regret. Do not settle for being someone's Plan B!

ToSmile, hope this helps. You have been very patient with her and with your sitch. The question you have to ask yourself, as the age of 40 approaches is: "How much more of your life do you want to waste waiting for someone that doesn't want to be with you?"

[wayfarer]

Ok maybe it's that I'm close in age to you guys. Maybe it's because I was a WW in my first MR. Maybe it's because I haven't read you're whole sitch, but I'm sorry your W sounds certifiable. Like legitimately in need of a Dx and some therapy and Rx. What is the point of her being in the house with you 6 months ago, now, or post divorce? The access to the kids thing is BS. I don't buy it for a second.

I stuck it in the house with my exH for a long time sleeping in separate bedrooms because I legitimately couldn't afford to leave, and he went out of his way to make sure I couldn't. But I also didn't spend my years there repeatedly telling him I was going to leave and then just never did. I truly thought until the very last year I was there that things would turn around that he'd finally agree to counseling or make an effort on his own, that my changes would some how jog him into a desire to follow suit. And I was the WW, whom he begged to come back.

With my current H it was a money thing too. Honestly I think if I had relinquished control of my half of the funds or hadn't been paying attention to our accounts I'm sure he would've tapped us out to try to move on with his life. Thankfully I learned my lesson with the first H and the universe had other plans. The flip side of that was 5 months into his crap I wanted him out just as much if not more than he wanted out. I don't understand how you're so far along here and haven't filed, with a motion over the dwelling to get her out. Not saying you need to be me, but most people here know I was desperate to keep my home in one piece, but I had papers drawn up the day after he said he wanted a D and to move out. I never had them served, but I was ready.

The kids are young, man. The sooner you can rip this bandaid off the better it is for everyone especially them. D18 when she was little asked me to leave her dad often. Even now she says she wishes I would've gotten us out sooner.

Why are you doing this? Why are you hanging on? Why are you just remaining stagnant on this?

I get that not every LBS is ingrained with the same childhood trauma I am so my instinct for self preservation is much more prevalent than others, but seriously, at no point here have you thought maybe it's best for me and the kids if I just do this and save us from all the chaos and turmoil W is putting us through?

[ToSmile]

LH, Steve,

Nice to hear from you'll and hi there wayfarer.

With regards her asking the friend over, My boundaries were I would be chasing them away if she is to come again as I thought that this is my house and would not entertain unwelcomed visitors. The thoughts of me leaving when the friend is here seems like I am giving way to her?

Yes indeed. The conversations are all useless and getting to nowhere. Thus I ended them and told her I am tired and would want to turn in. I realized that recently whenever she initiated these talks, it's all going no where and end up at the same point again. The observation of her being lazy in making the Divorce happen is right. She had been talking about this matter and I do not see what's the difficulty of her instructing her lawyer to just send the filing to my lawyer? Even my domestic helper told me that She's all full of talk but can't materialize anything.

And now her claims is like I am trying to "take the children away from her" because I don't agree to release them for overnight with her in justification of the non-action? I told her before, if there are any disagreement, we can just address it in the courts or what. I don't want to be similar to a friend of mine whom WAW screwed him up, got him kicked out of the matrimonial house, denied him access and wiped his bank account dry because he was not represented and too trusting to just sign the documents presented to him.

I agree she needs therapy. Helper also told me that my wife was sighing the night away not sleeping after the conversation. And like said, I would not agree to either of her options because it's best of both world for her. It's like she wants the divorce, but yet expect things to be in the manner she hope to be. Like remaining as good friends? I told her I am your husband. Now you want me to be your good friend? I would not even feel like seeing you anymore unnecessarily for goodness sake.

I come to realization that very likely if Divorce is to happen, I will be the person to push through. Actually a timeline I had set internally for myself, if things stay status quo and she does not try to be funny or treat me without respect would be another 3 years.

Why so? I link this to the 2-5 years estimated out of the fog timeline for MLC, if she also happens to have it. Another note is that by then, the kids will be bigger and much able to fend for themselves if she goes ape [censored] on them. They are my primary concern because yesterday morning while sending them to school, I had a casual conversation with them asking how they would feel if me and my wife separate but we still be around for them? They both replied sadly that they do not want that to happen with the younger one at the verge of tears. Thus that is the most anchoring factor for me. I do know that the argument is also that we have to let them go through this and it may be better for them. However every as and when I see their reaction like this I just thought to hold on a bit more if things would be better as long as she does not cross my line.

Thus I try to live as I am already divorced and my weekends is always about spending time with the kids and bringing them out myself while she goes on with her life. Actually things are going fine until once in a while she will come with this "Lets talk about it, Lets have a closure". Geez.

[SteveLW]

The problem with the "it's my house" thing is that it is her house too. So technically she can have her friend over even if you don't like her friend. But I guess asking them to leave is a way to try to handle it, but if she refuses then you could have an escalation on your hands.

As far as three years waiting, wow. That's a long time. Life is too short, in my opinion, to wait for someone that long. MLC fog can last the rest of her life. In fact, some MLCs aren't MLCs at all, they are a complete change of who someone is. They become the person that they are permanently. But it your life, so if that's how long you want to wait, so be it.

I applaud you putting your kids first. But remember this, kids would rather be from a broken home than in a broken home.