DB'ing while living in with a WAS/MLC husband

[BlueSea]

Starting a new thread.. Previous thread was "And then it was over"
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2894136&page=1

Background:

I found out about my husbands affair on Feb 25th - he went from a kind husband, to cruel & uncaring that day, Feb 25th. Spent a few weeks where he was trying to convince me that he could have both of us, he could compartmentalize, it would work. She was the best friend he ever had. He finally stopped seeing her and then stopped talking to her (So he said - in retrospect - probably not) - that took about 3 weeks.

The next month, he made efforts, we were going on walks, talking - really getting along, good conversation - he is impressed at the changes I have made - and says he knows I have really have changed. He would say he loved me. He would say I had so many great qualities, as a person, as a friend. Then after a great Saturday night walking on the beach, Sunday a complete reversal - he was done - its over - he is going to leave.

He says he truly believes I have made fundamental changes, and that things would be better between us, but he does not love me or have that 'emotional' connection any longer. He is leaving. For the time he is here, will continue to consider us...but he is no longer trying.

He exercises obsessively every day, takes testosterone shots, human growth shots, minoxidil for his hair line - and dressing in concert T shirts like a 20 yr old. And talking to me in a cold tone with cold uncaring eyes. He does not seem to care even for the kids.

He is back to seeing the OW, I didnt know for a couple of weeks, but I caught him sneaking out.
Now we are in an awful state - living under the same roof - while he is in an active EA/PA - staying out all night a couple times of week to be with the OW. But enjoying the family life during the day. It's an open marriage and its painful, and its right in my face.

I am struggling with asking him to leave. I had asked him to stay, but this route is very painful, and difficult to DB.

Me: 50
Husband: 49
D: 16
S: 13
Married for 23 years
D Day: Feb 25th 2020
Emotional & Physical affair Dec 2019

[BlueSea]

Alot of things happened for me yesterday.
1. Light bulb moment spurred on by Gingers post about not being a doormat, and understanding what that meant I needed to do.
2. Kids telling me they just want me to be done with him, I have asked them to be nice - they don't want to be, and don't want him here anymore. They don't like him, and do not like how I am tolerating all this.
3. His email. I just felt numb about it.
4. Nothing changed. He stepped out all last night, 11pm to 5am.

Last night, I ended up driving around, bought some vodka - parked in my own driveway - and drank. I am not a drinker. What I do remember telling him, was that all the wife activities (laundry, cooking, cleaning for him) would be stopping - that this was something I could not do going forward without growing resentment towards him. He tried to respond that he had no expectations and he could help clean...but I clipped him off. I just wanted to have my say - because he ALWAYS has had expectations that I do all that for him. (hovering over the dinner pans and asking what is his - not touching anything in the kitchen, leaving his laundry basket overflowing)

I let him know that the kids have issues with all this and him, and that I would not be running interference any longer. They will be treating him based on how they feel. That is up to him to handle his own relations with them.
- He says with sarcasm, "sure, they think I am the bad guy" - I felt he was baiting me, and did not respond. That would just be argument territory and I did not want to get waylaid there.

He told me that the email was just him taking one brick off the 'resentment wall' he has for me. That he still has alot of resentment against me. That he can not be with me in any way yet. That whatever books I am reading or advice I am getting, is working. He needs his time and space to figure things out. I did alot of nodding and agreeing. He rarely says anything so I just listened. He hugged me, he told me I really looked good. And then I left the room. In an hour he left the house.

I guess after all that - I was really surprised that he stepped out last night. During our conversation, he said he knew it was hard on me, and I told him that the next day after he is out all night is really hard on me - and I let him know that I could not handle that for too long. But he went anyway. So there you have it, he does not care.

Quote
Believe nothing of what they say and half of what they do....


My sadness is turning the corner to anger. And it seems like its going to be alot easier to detach now. Plus, hearing the kids hurt, is fueling the momma bear. I feel little parts of me assembling, coming together in pieces. My plans for today are to DB hard and tend to the kids and myself.

[BlueSea]

FROM LH-

B,

Are you familiar with the stages of grief. Looks like you are coming out of denial and into anger.

The five stages of grief are:

•denial.
•anger.
•bargaining.
•depression.
•acceptance.

[BlueSea]

Thanks LH -
I would like to station permanently in this stage - because the next stage - "bargaining" - sounds like that will be awful.

So as far as the R - am I in limbo now? I have heard that term mentioned on threads.
What, if anything - should I be doing now?


thank you!!

[BlueSea]

I just read this from BluWave posts, its perfect in a every way...

What I wish I could have also done differently and what I tell people here is to LET THEM GO. It's so simple it's hard to understand. When a person hurts us and rejects us, we cannot be nice, be friendly, and hope they will love us again. We can and should tell ourselves that we are worthy of more, we deserve better, and go dark. They do not deserve our attention, to see us weak, or to know our thoughts and feelings.

It wasnt until I let go of H and started to see a life without him that he realized what he was losing. It took me 10 months to hold my head up, let him go, and show the world I deserve better than this fool! No one wants a needy, sad, or weak person. No one wants someone angry or raging at them. No one is attracted to someone waiting for them as they are actively rejecting them. Again, so simple it's hard to understand.

Hold your head up high. Go dark. Let him go. And you take that time to take care of number one. You are number one. If sees over time that you are a beautiful and strong woman that is too good for him, then he can maybe prove to you that he deserves another chance. Maybe.

[Sage4]

BluWave’s advice is impeccable. She had the gift of hindsight to share what you quoted, however. Not that it changes the validity of her advice, but it is SO hard to get there in the moment you (and I) are both in.

But it sounds like you are doing a great job right now of detaching and staying in the present moment. You are in limbo... and I have so much empathy and admiration for how you are coping with it all. If you read BluWave’s threads from start to finish, you will learn that she struggled so much in the beginning to detach. She fell victim to what all of us do: the begging, crying, pleading, sadness, rage. And she learned that it didn’t work. But what I am slowly realizing is that those emotions are instigators to detachment. Human nature can only stay in pain for so long before we start to move away from it. For survival.

You are deserving of great love. Of faithfulness. Of not being hurt in this way. Don’t forget that.

[Ginger1]

I just read this from BluWave posts, its perfect in a every way...

What I wish I could have also done differently and what I tell people here is to LET THEM GO. It's so simple it's hard to understand. When a person hurts us and rejects us, we cannot be nice, be friendly, and hope they will love us again. We can and should tell ourselves that we are worthy of more, we deserve better, and go dark. They do not deserve our attention, to see us weak, or to know our thoughts and feelings.

It wasnt until I let go of H and started to see a life without him that he realized what he was losing. It took me 10 months to hold my head up, let him go, and show the world I deserve better than this fool! No one wants a needy, sad, or weak person. No one wants someone angry or raging at them. No one is attracted to someone waiting for them as they are actively rejecting them. Again, so simple it's hard to understand.

Hold your head up high. Go dark. Let him go. And you take that time to take care of number one. You are number one. If sees over time that you are a beautiful and strong woman that is too good for him, then he can maybe prove to you that he deserves another chance. Maybe.

That’s what I’ve been telling you!!!

[SteveLW]

BluWave’s advice is impeccable. She had the gift of hindsight to share what you quoted, however. Not that it changes the validity of her advice, but it is SO hard to get there in the moment you (and I) are both in.

But it sounds like you are doing a great job right now of detaching and staying in the present moment. You are in limbo... and I have so much empathy and admiration for how you are coping with it all. If you read BluWave’s threads from start to finish, you will learn that she struggled so much in the beginning to detach. She fell victim to what all of us do: the begging, crying, pleading, sadness, rage. And she learned that it didn’t work. But what I am slowly realizing is that those emotions are instigators to detachment. Human nature can only stay in pain for so long before we start to move away from it. For survival.

You are deserving of great love. Of faithfulness. Of not being hurt in this way. Don’t forget that.

Sage, I hear what you are saying. However, nothing worthwhile is life is easy! Yes, this approach Blu laid out is hard. But look at how she voices the opposite:

"No one wants a needy, sad, or weak person. No one wants someone angry or raging at them. No one is attracted to someone waiting for them as they are actively rejecting them."

I think of an ex-gf I had when I was in my late teens. I met this girl and she fell hard. Very hard. She was almost obsessed. So much to the point that she accused me of cheating because she heard that "I was a really big flirt". I WAS SEVENTEEN! Of course I was a big flirt. It took me months, after breaking up with her, to get her to accept the break-up. She'd still call me everyday. She'd show up at places I was at (her best friend was dating a friend of mine). I pretty much had to be rude to finally get her to stop. 2 years later something weird happened. It had been 6 months since I had heard from her. and the 6 months prior to that was her trying to convince me she had moved on. "I am dating a guy, he's this and has that." It was obvious to me she was trying to make me jealous. But after that 6 months with NC went by II started to wonder about her.

I called her. She was happy to hear from me but her whole demeanor related to me had changed. It kicked in my chase instinct and suddenly I started wanting to date her again! If you had told me a year before that I would become the chaser I would have scoffed. But by her stopping chasing me, and in fact running the other way, it kicked in a predator instinct in me! "She's mine, and I will get her back!"

We never did get back, after a few weeks of chasing, and realizing that she was completely over me, I gave up. But the point is that notice the difference. Most LBSs fail in what Blu says because THEY DON'T truly move on. They just want to make their WAS think they've moved on. WAS have excellent instincts related to this, and will know you are just trying to manipulate them. It is only after you truly have given up and moved on that sometimes the WAS will start wondering what changed.

So yes it is hard. But it only hard because most LBSs, and LBWs in particular, are too afraid to actually drop the rope, give up on their WAS, and move on. It can be done. Many have done it. And eventually the WAS comes crawling back. Some of the LBSs accept them back and begin to work on MR 2.0. Many have truly moved on by that point and are completely over their WAS. The difference is that in that case the choice is up to the LBS, not the WAS!

[BlueSea]

Thank you Sage for your support! really appreciate it - much needed.

Steve, I totally get that - makes so much sense, its the execution I am failing on. You have seen that I subscribe to the "show him the change" dynamic (from LH here: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2894915&page=5) all within the constraints of DB. But I am finding that it is not possible to function when H stepping out openly. It goes against my core values and having this happen is literally whittling me down as a person. I have been thinking all day.

I received this from him in email when I had asked for a clarification yesterday:

I was trying to imply that there was a time no so long ago when I couldn't imaging staying and that I felt like there was literally no chance we would work out and there was no reason to stay other than the kids.

That's not the case now.

While I still am struggling to see any future (staying or going) that is not unhappy right now, at least this one is not as dead as I once thought it was.

Honestly I can't tell you exactly what has changed. Maybe I am still holding a grudge and slowly letting that go. Maybe you are also proving that you are committed to being different and I'm seeing that perseverance. Whatever it is, at least I feel like I have taken a half step back from the edge of the abyss. I'm not trying to be dramatic. That's what it has felt like for a while.

As for the other part, I do understand what you are saying. I'm not sure how to be more respectful or discrete. I'm inherently being disrespectful so there is no getting around that.

As for descrete, I'm trying, but it's not really possible. I'm carving out a few hours in the middle of the night so I can't really be any more discrete. While the rest of you have bedrooms, I sleep on one of two couchs so it's pretty easy for everyone in the house to see if I'm there or not. I continue to try and be discrete even though you clearly let me know you know by checking the garage camera in the middle of the night and leaving on all the lights.

I know you didn't sign up for this. If the situation becomes unbearable for either of us, let's have an adult conversation about me moving out. That would be a reasonable next step while I try to figure out what my future looks like and honestly that is a more respectful option.

Do I consider this progress in the right direction? Since I have engaged in enough R stuff (above emails) I just lay low today. I feel very sad today as I am waffling on this huge decision of what to do next. Is what I am doing the right thing - being validated by his email? Even if it was, I definitely can not keep this up.

If he leaves - either by my request or his choice - I think that will be the end for ME in pursuing this marriage any longer. There is a sense of abandonment that comes with the absence that I don't think I could get over.

How I hate all of this.

[Spiral]

Before you ask him to leave, you need to know whether you are in a financial position to keep everything going without his assistance. If you are, then I recommend telling him that he should leave. He might not actually want to leave. The OW might not actually want him to move in with her. He might decide to leave and they might blow up quickly. Or he might leave and jump into a relationship with her. Even if its the latter, you'll pick yourself up and recover with time.

-Spiral

[SteveLW]

Bluesea, what I would remember is that this email is WORDS.

Believe nothing he says (or types), and half of what he does.

When my W started to move towards R and back towards the MR she said something similar.

"When I think about staying vs. going, it used to be (a few weeks before) that staying depressed me and going excited me. Now as time goes on I'm starting to feel excited by staying, and less so about going."

Now, remember, my W was not in an active affair. Her EA was over by this point (I saw her going through the grief period of the loss of that R). I think someone actively cheating saying something like this has to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

So if his feelings about potentially staying not being so dire to him any longer are genuine, then I believe it is a step in the right direction. However, I do wonder if it is a manipulation attempt. As in he has no where to go so is trying to buy more time as he detects you getting more fed up and finding the current situation untenable. What I would say is that for your decision, about whether you can continue on this way or not, ignore his words including this email. IN fact, that is what detachment is: moving on with what you want regardless of the WAS' words and actions.

Personally, I would ask him to leave. It sounds like an unhealthy situation with him coming and going to his other life whenever he feels like it, and the effect that is having on the rest of the household. I think of my father's horror stories about his alcoholic dad (I never knew my grandfather) coming and going all hours of the night and the effect it had on him and his siblings. I would not put up with unhealthy behaviors that are affecting the kids.

[LH19]

[i]I was trying to imply that there was a time no so long ago when I couldn't imaging staying and that I felt like there was literally no chance we would work out and there was no reason to stay other than the kids.

That's not the case now.

While I still am struggling to see any future (staying or going) that is not unhappy right now, at least this one is not as dead as I once thought it was.

Honestly I can't tell you exactly what has changed. Maybe I am still holding a grudge and slowly letting that go. Maybe you are also proving that you are committed to being different and I'm seeing that perseverance. Whatever it is, at least I feel like I have taken a half step back from the edge of the abyss. I'm not trying to be dramatic. That's what it has felt like for a while.

As for the other part, I do understand what you are saying. I'm not sure how to be more respectful or discrete. I'm inherently being disrespectful so there is no getting around that.

As for descrete, I'm trying, but it's not really possible. I'm carving out a few hours in the middle of the night so I can't really be any more discrete. While the rest of you have bedrooms, I sleep on one of two couchs so it's pretty easy for everyone in the house to see if I'm there or not. I continue to try and be discrete even though you clearly let me know you know by checking the garage camera in the middle of the night and leaving on all the lights.

I know you didn't sign up for this. If the situation becomes unbearable for either of us, let's have an adult conversation about me moving out. That would be a reasonable next step while I try to figure out what my future looks like and honestly that is a more respectful option.

This email is pure manipulation and he is such a (another name for a cat) he can't say this BS to your face.

Do I consider this progress in the right direction?

Absolutely not! This is him just showing more disrespect.

I feel very sad today as I am waffling on this huge decision of what to do next.

It's ok to feel sad. Deep down you know what you have to do.

Is what I am doing the right thing - being validated by his email?

You are making changes for yourself.

Even if it was, I definitely can not keep this up.

No. IHS with a cheater that doesn't even hide it is not good for your emaotional well being.

If he leaves - either by my request or his choice - I think that will be the end for ME in pursuing this marriage any longer.

And that's ok. You wil always know you did everything to save the marriage.

How I hate all of this.

I hate this for you and your children. You deserve better!

[BlueSea]

@Spiral - Thank you, would you be surprised to know I was a 1950's type wife and have no idea what my finances are? I bet not. I know that. I am waking up. I just always trusted him to take care of me.

@Steve & LH - I tee'd up the conversation, it went a different direction and long but he shared ALOT. What I now know is that this OW, is not a relationship that he would consider pursuing long term. They meet from 12:30am to 4:30 some nights - watch TV, hang-out and yes, have sex. He said he was lonely. For me, the not knowing the extent of this relationship had been very tough for me. If he told me this was a real relationship, the if-he- left- me- he- would- go- to- her kind ... I would have ended it right there. So I withheld saying anything... to listen. For him, its not this woman that wrecked the marriage - his choice he is grappling with is "me or ______ (nothing)".

This was a huge blow to me. He is a WAS, not a wayward husband with an A. To me this is even worse! He is the turned off - not coming back - can't stand you - I am out of here type. He is grappling with committing to this marriage and potentially dooming himself to years of the same unhappiness from before - OR - going into the unknown and rolling the die for happiness.

We talked for a good long time. I told him how unfair it felt that he got to be with someone when he was the one who is the "bad guy" who had the affair and is hurting us all with this behavior. He agreed. I let him know how lonely I was, and how ironic that there were 2 lonely people in the house. I listened as he told me how he felt that there was a possibility with me that he hadn't felt before - but was afraid to give me any false hopes or expectation. I told him I loved him, that we all loved him and he was good person, just going thru a very hard time. And maybe he could watch TV with me sometime, and how much I would really appreciate that. He said he understood that. And then started to talk about an offer I had propositioned him with just a few days ago to be intimate. He turned me down...so I came back the following night..and he turned me down again. ugh. So when he started to speak about it - I cut him off laughing "please not a third rejection!" and he laughed and said he might surprise me sometime soon.

There was more said - but by the end - we were holding hands. He looked very sad. I let him know that I deeply cared for him and he was going thru a hard time but this was created by him, for him. I let him know how much I have learned about myself, and how much of a change I needed to be a better person. That I used to pray to God on the drive in to work every morning to 'make me a better wife, a better mother and a better person'. And He delivered! This was/is the hardest time of my adult life - but I have made some huge changes - and I never would have had that happen otherwise.

I was dug in like a tick before and could not extract myself from the unhappy place I was in. I am sincerely a more lighter, kinder person, a person I used to be. I am back down to my fighting weight, and feel better about myself. Dealing with my teens is no longer battles, but easier, I am more kind/gentle. He says he sees the new change, and feels it too, and believes its a permanent change.

I told him that he will get thru this a better person! He has to slog thru it - and maybe not having an OW as a distraction would be best - but he will get to the other side stronger and better.

It was a really good night for me - he appreciated our talk - he asked for a d.e.a.r session on a minor item for later, I offered to just do it now, it was so minor and after we ended the talk there.

I am going to just enjoy the progress we made - I think it was a really great night for us. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but I will be able to sleep tonight. I am not going to get too excited - things could change in a second - but I hope and pray that these gears catch.

[LH19]

Oh Bue that was tough to read. i'll break it down later. Unfortunately your talk only works in the movies. You see progress and I see a MAJOR set back.

[Ginger1]

I’m going to have to keep this short right now, but I agree with LH. Boy, is he manipulative.

Did the end of that conversation also come woth an end to him and OW and his secret life he leads from 11-5am?

Because unless that has ended, he has two women. One for the day, and one for the night .

[SteveLW]

LH and Ginger have already expressed feelings similar to mine on this. However, 2x4 time: Did you really offer to have sex with your cheating husband?!?

One of the #1 rules of DB is to never initiate sex. But even more importantly is the rule that you never allow them to initiate either if they are actively engaged in an affair! Bluesea, this is about your health. Please consider that before taking a step like this again.

[LH19]

Blue I am going to start of by saying that I have nothing but compassion for what you are going through and I think about your situation when I can't sleep at night but I have to be honest with you below.

@Steve & LH - I tee'd up the conversation, it went a different direction and long but he shared ALOT. What I now know is that this OW, is not a relationship that he would consider pursuing long term. They meet from 12:30am to 4:30 some nights - watch TV, hang-out and yes, have sex.

So a couple things here. You are listening to his words. His actions state otherwise. He is risking his marriage for this woman so either he really like this woman or he really doesn't value his marriage. Also, never EVER discuss the OW with him. That should be a boundary.

He said he was lonely. For me, the not knowing the extent of this relationship had been very tough for me. If he told me this was a real relationship, the if-he- left- me- he- would- go- to- her kind ... I would have ended it right there.

So I withheld saying anything... to listen. For him, its not this woman that wrecked the marriage - his choice he is grappling with is "me or ______ (nothing)"

.
No affairs are acts of anger -- he has built up a ton of resentment toward you, and since he's avoidant, he hasn't given voice to any of it or worked any of it through. I'm not saying you've done anything wrong, or that you deserve his resentment, it could be completely irrational, but the point is that it exists.

This was a huge blow to me. He is a WAS, not a wayward husband with an A. To me this is even worse!

Its WW BS and semantics at this point anyway.

but was afraid to give me any false hopes or expectation.

This is probably the only time he is being honest with you.

I told him I loved him, that we all loved him and he was good person, just going thru a very hard time.

This is a big time no no! This just reminds him more that he doesn't feel the same right now. You cannot placate him, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.

And maybe he could watch TV with me sometime, and how much I would really appreciate that.

Blue this is tough to read. You are begging for scraps. You are so much better then that!

And then started to talk about an offer I had propositioned him with just a few days ago to be intimate. He turned me down...so I came back the following night..and he turned me down again. ugh.

This was tough to read too. You are offering sex to a man who is openly cheating on you and may have contracted diseases. His actions speak volumes in turning you down.

So when he started to speak about it - I cut him off laughing "please not a third rejection!" and he laughed and said he might surprise me sometime soon.

Really tough to read.

He looked very sad.

Mindreading

I let him know that I deeply cared for him and he was going thru a hard time but this was created by him, for him.
Is this compassion or are you trying to make him feel guilty?
[quote=BlueSea] I let him know how much I have learned about myself, and how much of a change I needed to be a better person.

Actions not words.

That I used to pray to God on the drive in to work every morning to 'make me a better wife, a better mother and a better person'. And He delivered!

So how are you a better person?

This was/is the hardest time of my adult life - but I have made some huge changes - and I never would have had that happen otherwise.

What are these changes? Are they real or to get him back?

I was dug in like a tick before and could not extract myself from the unhappy place I was in.

What changed that you are so happy now?

I am sincerely a more lighter, kinder person, a person I used to be.

This is good but its only been like 5 months.

I am back down to my fighting weight, and feel better about myself.

That's great and the best thing I have read today!

He says he sees the new change, and feels it too, and believes its a permanent change.

So is the affair over? Is he going to IC? Are you going to MC. Is there a NC plan in place? Full transparency?

He has to slog thru it - and maybe not having an OW as a distraction would be best - but he will get to the other side stronger and better.

You are trying to control him.

It was a really good night for me

How? What's changed?

He appreciated our talk - he asked for a d.e.a.r session on a minor item for later, I offered to just do it now, it was so minor and after we ended the talk there.

Now sure what that is and I don't think I want to know.

I am going to just enjoy the progress we made - I think it was a really great night for us.

How?

Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but I will be able to sleep tonight.

That's great! Good sleep is important.

I am not going to get too excited - things could change in a second - but I hope and pray that these gears catch.

Blue I am really sorry but I think you are in for a rude awakening. You don't realize it right now but you are making matters worse. Please reread BLueWaves thread.

[SteveLW]

LH nailed it.

One last thing. We see this a lot. You are falling into the reaction trap. "Oh we had a good talk! He likes me and we have a chance!" "Oh he was mean and refused to talk to me, I am doomed the world is ending!"

Bluesea, the fact is that this man is a lying-cheater. And apparently needs to continue sleeping on your couch (PLAN B) until his Plan A is full solidified. And everything he is saying is to keep that in place until no longer needed. As LH says.....actions are important...words are meaningless.

And please stop pointing out to him how much you've changed. That negates the changes in the WAS' mind. It tells them you are just changing to get them back. You change for you. For real. He'll either notice or he won't. You can't control that last part.

[Ginger1]

Oh, I totally missed the part where you have been offering up sex to a man who is cheating on you and having sexual with his affair partner.

Oh, that just breaks my heart. How is that self worth? That’s self depreciating .

[BlueSea]

LH and Steve - There is alot that you have posted that I will need to step thru to understand. Caveat: I just read my post, and its terse and defensive - but please know I am thinking about your responses. I was hesitant to post my 'propositions', but it it what it is, its been a long time, sorry for tmi but I don't want to kiss and cuddle. I am not offering sex to him, I am demanding sex from him. As I told him, if I am cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, handling the kids - doing the 'wife' things, then I have expectations in return. In that way, h and I were/are different, he had to be in a good space for it to happen, for me its a physical need. He not wanting to take my propositions - is something I am used to, from before - he mentioning that he could be getting interested, to me, shows a shift. We have talked about his use of protection. tmi. I didn't realize that the #1 rules of DB is to never initiate sex.

He sent me that email, after I made my offer, and told me that he never thought I could see past what he has done. And that act showed it could be possible. He keeps telling me how hard a return would be, that he might not be up for working thru all that. So me, asking to watch TV with him, is not asking for scraps to just be next to him - its strategic - its me throwing a breadcrumb, me saying lets do something 'normal' and super easy - you sit there, I sit next to you and we just watch TV. Let me show you that we can do that. Okay? We do that, and then, we try something else - I don't know, something a tad bit more higher - and see how we do at that. And keep going from there.

The DB dialogue rules: responding only and to the point - can come off to someone like my H, as cold. He is not an initiator. Its a big thing for him to tee up a conversation especially right now - but I see him trying to. He knows he is being an a@@hole - I could understand why he may feel ashamed to try to talk about light things when he know he is ripping my heart thru my nose - and is thinking 'why would she even want to speak to me or talk about vegetarian sausage when we both know I am being a HUGE jerk'. Its very stilted, and lasts a few mins. He is an introvert, and I can see that he takes it the wrong way when I end the conversation first (DBing).

I have been reading BluWave (she has a lot of threads - I am still in the 2017 dates) Her H did come back, only after she let the rope go. She detached. But did so, so thoroughly that she is struggling to accept him back, and on the brink of her own A. I think one can go to far in this detaching business. I agree not to be in that panic state, grabbing after your spouse, begging and pleading. There is a healthy line there - and I am looking for it. Doing my best. I can see how after many years that it gets frustrating to read about us LBS, and the 'pathetic-ness' - know that you both are lifelines to logic that we just cant see or process right now, but more and more is making sense, though my execution is horrid.

IMHO: All of the LBS that are women know exactly why we are here. We were controlling - we had a nice guy that was a doormat - it was a co-dependency that was bad for both. And he broke under our totalitarian rule. We dug in our heels, so used to how it worked - and then one day - this nice guy decided (really had been deciding for a long time) that he was done. My nice guy has truly transformed into a monster, he can not stand me, he see's me and is repulsed from all the memories. But I wasnt this way originally, I was sweet and loving, and waited on him, and showered him with compliments and gratitude - but somewhere along the way - and I have to say the kids were a huge part of it - they can be huge stressors with demands to be #1 - and I did that. My efforts were in this order Kid1, kid2, cat1, cat2, husband.

I know its been just a few months - but - this cr@ppy experience threw off some chains I was bound in that I could not do for myself. I don't know how to explain that. And it wasnt done for H. It just happened. I was shown what a jerk I was, and it has changed my view across the board. I hope that I am able to continue in this M - I am going to do my best to do whatever I can - and its touch and go right now for sure - but I want to be able to say I tried the best I could and right now I can at least say i am trying - clearly not in the most effective way - but will try to figure that out too.

I do appreciate both of your advice and especially the way it is offered/communicated. There are 2x4s that are well delivered and I really need to process them and be open - because right now I recognize that I am being defensive. I had a happy moment and am trying to defend that, maybe wrongly so. I see this as a safe place - and do look for your experience on a daily basis.

Others - Respectfully, don't feel the need to check in on this thread anymore - preachy judgmental-ism helps no one.

[job]

BlueSea,

It's not easy when you are fighting for your marriage and sometimes, we do have those "happy moments" and along comes someone in IRL or here and then bam! The bubble of happiness pops.

Take some time to digest the comments that have been posted. The problem w/posting in print, people can take what is posted many ways. Each and every poster that comes here not only to your thread, but the many that are on this forum as well as the other forums are either walking the same path as you or are further along. Everyone has an opinion and each and every poster means well and you need only to take whatever advice that you think applies to your situation. Leave the rest in the dust.

I always advise posters to do what works for them and their situation and leave the rest at the door. If you try something and it isn't working, then try something else. You will know how things are going w/the trial and error routine because actions will speak louder than words.

I would offer up a word of caution and I do advise everyone of this...if you are having sexual relations w/your h and he's been out on the prowl, please, please get yourself checked out, even if he says he isn't having relations out there. Condoms work, but there is always the possibility of a slip up or a snafu w/that little rubber raincoat.

Take the time to work on yourself, if you have become aware of things that you've been doing that you aren't happy with, then now is the time to work on them.

We are here for you and the door is always open.

[LH19]

I am not offering sex to him, I am demanding sex from him.

Blue you can't demand someone to have sex with you and you shouldn't trust he is using protection. Make sure he gets tested first.

As I told him, if I am cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, handling the kids - doing the 'wife' things, then I have expectations in return. In that way, h and I were/are different, he had to be in a good space for it to happen, for me its a physical need.

Boy oh boy if a man posted this the $hit would hit the fan

He not wanting to take my propositions - is something I am used to, from before - he mentioning that he could be getting interested, to me, shows a shift. We have talked about his use of protection. tmi. I didn't realize that the #1 rules of DB is to never initiate sex.

Words absolutely mean nothing Blue. There is no shift. Luckily for you he turned you down because you would have regretted it at some point.

He sent me that email, after I made my offer, and told me that he never thought I could see past what he has done.

This is WW script for reasons not to work on the marriage. Seen here all the time.

And that act showed it could be possible.

What act?

He keeps telling me how hard a return would be, that he might not be up for working thru all that.

He's being honest you.

So me, asking to watch TV with him, is not asking for scraps to just be next to him - its strategic - its me throwing a breadcrumb, me saying lets do something 'normal' and super easy - you sit there, I sit next to you and we just watch TV. Let me show you that we can do that. Okay? We do that, and then, we try something else - I don't know, something a tad bit more higher - and see how we do at that. And keep going from there.

It's pursuit and pressure and that NEVER works and will drive him further away.

He is not an initiator. Its a big thing for him to tee up a conversation especially right now - but I see him trying to. He knows he is being an a@@hole - I could understand why he may feel ashamed to try to talk about light things when he know he is ripping my heart thru my nose - and is thinking 'why would she even want to speak to me or talk about vegetarian sausage when we both know I am being a HUGE jerk'. Its very stilted, and lasts a few mins. He is an introvert, and I can see that he takes it the wrong way when I end the conversation first (DBing).

Why are you making excuses for him?

I have been reading BluWave (she has a lot of threads - I am still in the 2017 dates) Her H did come back, only after she let the rope go. She detached. But did so, so thoroughly that she is struggling to accept him back, and on the brink of her own A.

Yep. The same thing very well may happen to you some day.

I think one can go to far in this detaching business.

This is an ABSOLUTELY FALSE statement. Anyway, on a scale of 1-10 you are a 1 in detachment.

I agree not to be in that panic state, grabbing after your spouse, begging and pleading. There is a healthy line there - and I am looking for it. Doing my best. I can see how after many years that it gets frustrating to read about us LBS, and the 'pathetic-ness' - know that you both are lifelines to logic that we just cant see or process right now, but more and more is making sense, though my execution is horrid.

You will look back many years from now and will be disappointed in your actions.

IMHO: All of the LBS that are women know exactly why we are here. We were controlling - we had a nice guy that was a doormat - it was a co-dependency that was bad for both. And he broke under our totalitarian rule.

Well demanding sex is not going to help matters.

We dug in our heels, so used to how it worked - and then one day - this nice guy decided (really had been deciding for a long time) that he was done.

Unfortunately that is what tends to happen on these boards.

My nice guy has truly transformed into a monster, he can not stand me, he see's me and is repulsed from all the memories. But I wasnt this way originally, I was sweet and loving, and waited on him, and showered him with compliments and gratitude - but somewhere along the way - and I have to say the kids were a huge part of it - they can be huge stressors with demands to be #1 - and I did that. My efforts were in this order Kid1, kid2, cat1, cat2, husband.

Even the cats where a head of him?

I am going to do my best to do whatever I can - and its touch and go right now for sure - but I want to be able to say I tried the best I could and right now I can at least say i am trying - clearly not in the most effective way - but will try to figure that out too.

Doing your best would be sticking to Sandi's 37 rules. I think you broke all 37 last night lol.

I do appreciate both of your advice and especially the way it is offered/communicated. There are 2x4s that are well delivered and I really need to process them and be open - because right now I recognize that I am being defensive. I had a happy moment and am trying to defend that, maybe wrongly so. I see this as a safe place - and do look for your experience on a daily basis.

This is a place where we are here to help. You have to have thick skin to get through this so try to remember that when we are telling you that you are absolutely making matters worse right now.

Prepare yourself for the fact that you're unlikely to ever get any remorse or any type of apology.

Realistically someone having an affair like this is usually a "last straw" versus a spur of the moment decision. In most relationships needs don't get met, resentments build up, and just pile up over time. When you're living in the same space there's a lot of motivation to compromise and keep the peace, but usually under the surface there's stuff brewing that isn't getting discussed, usually because both people convince themselves that it's just a temporary issue and will go away on its own.

An affair is escapism for sure, and its usually the result of a chance opportunity, or a thousand micro-escalations that happened without any forethought. What it's really a symptom of, however, is conflict avoidance.

For a relationship to be successful both people need to be willing to blow it up on occasion, argue it out and be prepared to walk if a compromise can't be reached. That takes a lot of strength and self-confidence. For more often people stuff it down and pave over it and eventually you're sitting on a volcano that's ready to blow. Once the volcano explodes there is no going back.

Point is, regardless of the affair one or both of you weren't happy. Usually its just a matter of timing in terms of who pulls the rip cord first.

That's why it's now important to separate the desire for the person, from the desire for resumption of control, stability, and positive validation. Your brain is telling you that getting H back will restore these things, but it won't.

So ask yourself, what do you want and why do you want it?

[LH19]

I have been reading BluWave (she has a lot of threads - I am still in the 2017 dates) Her H did come back, only after she let the rope go. She detached. But did so, so thoroughly that she is struggling to accept him back, and on the brink of her own A.

This confirms the point about your brain trying to stabilize and bring stability back to your life. It's never about the other person. The fact of the matter is truly happy couples do not find themselves in these situations. If you are honest with yourself you were probably not that happy either.

Something to think about.

[SteveLW]

Bluesea, obviously your situation is yours, not ours, so what you decide is best to do is ultimately up to you. The perspective that we bring as a collective (both welcomed and unwelcome feedback) is what we'e observed as working in dozens and dozens of situations here. And what we can tell you is that some of your tactics that you are engaging in and considering engaging in tend to set situations like yours back, not move it forward. We have had more than a few LBSs that grew tired of the blunt advice suggesting they do the opposite of what they were doing or wanted to do, only to come back weeks or months (sometimes years) later and admit that they should have taken the advice. We just had one recently do that within the last couple of weeks.

I know hearing some of the things you've heard here have been jolting. I think at one point you said you left the board over something LH said, but now you see that LH is only trying to help. We get a lot of LBSs here that are in denial, and we tend to talk frank and blunt with them in an effort to wake them from that denial state. The fact is that they are facing DIVORCE and unfortunately there is nothing a LBS can do to stop that. We say all the time, if the WAS wants a D then more than likely they (the LBS) will end up D'd. Unfortunately it takes 2 to make a marriage, but only takes 1 to get a D.

So there is a DB principle that we build all the rest of our advice on: Control what you can, and that is only you. You only have control of you. If there was anyway to control the WAS then this forum would be empty. There would be no need to DB at all. But the whole point of DBing is to turn the focus from the WAS and turn it back to yourself as the LBS. That is what GAL, 180ing, and detaching is all about. We only get control of one person in this life, and our WAS ain't it.

The other tendency most LBSs have is to revert back to what got you into your MR to begin with. And that is that initial wooing and attracting phase when you first met your SO. That is what becomes intuitive to the LBS when they face marital strife. "I need to get back to what got me here!" So we start wanting to do things like hug, and kiss, and snuggle, and say ILY, and initiate sex, and go on dates, and become a perfect spouse (cleaning the house, providing meals), we buy presents, we read the 5 love languages and try to fill their love tank. None of that works. And I usually use a simple analogy for why none of that works:

A MR is like a car. It requires routine maintenance. Just a like a car needs oil changes, tune-ups, air filter changes, and cleaning inside and out, so does a MR. That routine maintenance for a MR is making sure to keep the connection alive. Going on dates, saying ILY, filling their love tank (5 LLs), sex, kissing, hugging, etc. But with a car, if you ignore the routine maintenance eventually you have a breakdown. If you don't change the oil eventually the engine will seize up. Once that happens, you could change the oil but it would be a waste of time. No amount of oil changes is going to fix a blown engine. And the MR is the same, once you have a major breakdown in the MR, no amount of routine maintenance can fix it. All those things that are intuitive become a waste of time, and in fact, they cause more damage than good.

Once your H is sleeping on the couch, sneaking out at 12-5am to see an OW, it is too late for all of the routine maintenance that may have been missing in the MR up to that point. And exerting that pressure and pursuit on a WAS causes them to run away even faster. I cannot think of one sitch here that was turned around by the LBS pressuring and pursuing their spouse. Again, if it were that easy then this forum wouldn't exist. There is no magic bullet to fix a broken MR!

So Bluesea, what you can do is focus on you. I was surprised to hear you say that you didn't know that initiating sex was a violation of DBing principles. It has me questioning if you've read DB or DR. If not I highly suggest you pick up DR and read it. It makes me question if you've read all of Cadet's welcome message links. There is gold in those links! If you have read DB/DR and/or Cadet's links I highly encourage you to go back and read them again. Not just read them, but study them. Learn them. Know them. I used to carry a copy of sandi's 37 rules around on my smartphone and would read them multiple times a day! It kept me focused on the behavior that was going to better my situation, not make it worse. And I started to know them like the back of my hand!

One last thing I will challenge you on is whether or not your H is a WAH or a WH. You seem convinced hs is a WAH. However, one of the key differences between a WAH and WH is that a WAH will, well, walk away! WHs are completely different. They want their cake and eat it too. They want to crash on the couch, but still come and go with OW unabashedly and not even try to hide it. They will engage in "nice talks" like the one he had with you in order to manipulate and keep his current arrangement for as long as he can. I would argue that your H is a WH. Not merely a WAH. And I hope you understand that WSs require a tougher kind of love than a WAH would.

Anyway, I hope this helps. If not, let me know and I will abide by whatever wishes you have in regards to me continuing to weigh in on your sitch! God bless you and keep you, Bluesea. My sitch was the hardest thing I have ever gone through, I am pretty sure you would concur with that in your case.

[BlueSea]

Steve, -

Both you and the input I have received from LH have been so completely valuable to me - I wish I could express that the advice I have found here and shared by you both (and others) have been gold. You are right this is one of the hardest things I have ever gone thru. I feel that I have read volumes of books and posts, but depending when I read it, some has stuck and if I was in denial - I did not allow to stick b/c it did not fit my this-will-all-work-out narrative. So pulling out the DB book would be a smart thing to do, I do have it - thanks for the suggestion. I am sure I was reading it at light speed to find that magical answer - that does not exist.

I think if I research every angle, I will figure this out. Believing it would open a door to understanding more about my H, I just started to read the No more Mr Nice Guy book - and instead was knocked back to find insights more about myself. What stopped me most was:
"Spending extended periods of time alone also helps recovering Nice Guys face their number one fear - loneliness and isolation. When the NG discovers that spending time alone doesn't kill him, he may also realize that he doesn't have to stay in bad relationships or tolerate intolerable behavior...." I can not be alone. It is my #1 fear. I don't even like taking showers alone.

Other ng stuff - I have always felt that its selfish to put my needs first -yes, I always thought it was virtuous to put others ahead of me -yes. And I am only happy if my partner is happy- yes. Always fixing and care taking-yes. I always thought it made me feel good to give, and that generosity is a sign of how good I am and so that will make others love/appreciate me back- yes. That is all how I think. There's more similarities - not all - but a good deal. And all of this coming from childhood issues? That well is just too deep, trust me.

I feel like this tunnel just keeps going. I can not deal with all of it: H affair, plus H issues, plus H needs, plus H expectations, plus the kids, plus the job, plus look as great as I can and act perfectly (be friendly, upbeat, seem happy that all is going well), be productive at work amid layoffs, cook 2 separate but equal meals, keep the place clean, the kids in check, keep 37 rules in my head and sort out toxic childhood issues.

I am just getting dizzy trying to process it all. And the sands keep shifting, so there is always something new. DD16 just had it out with H this morning, calling him a p@ssy for stepping out last night, treating us all badly and pretending that its not happening. She is hurting, DS13 is hurting. Clearly, something has to change. I KNOW that. Even though everything about me wants him to say, my higher self is pushing me to get it over with and get him out - screaming at me to just say it - "Leave!".

I thought a discussion around the dd explosion would be the time to tee up the conversation- during it, he leads the conversation and and tells me - Not to worry about what happened, dd really gave it to him, but that is on him to deal with - and for me to hold on, please be patient with him, things are coming to a head with the 'situation' and that it should play out very soon. Things are still really bad with him and us - but not dead, he is no longer 'one foot out the door' and the situation is getting resolved.

That's all I needed to hear to be that typical LBS - a shred of hope that around the corner there is happiness - just wait. I think if he is going to leave me, and that is his news that is around the corner, then fine - either way he will be out. Would it be better if I asked him to leave - definitely - but then I lose the Pandora's box of every really knowing if he actually was going to cut it off? I had told him the other day that I needed to make a decision, that the dam was just springing too many holes and I no longer could keep the kids at bay with his behavior, and personally could not stand the nightly runs. Maybe this is pushing him to decide sooner - or - he is bread crumbing me in the worst way possible, as a WH would.

[may22]

Hi BlueSea,

I think this crisis time where you are right now is the hardest time for anyone. It is intense trauma and often you have no-one you can really turn to as you would in any other scenario. And on top of it, you're facing this at a time of extreme turmoil for the entire world. Don't blame yourself for being stressed out or having a difficult time coping. You're in the thick of it and with the pandemic and all the other things happening right now in our country, I think it is heroic that you're even still standing. I have so much empathy for you. And know that all the advice you're getting from different folks, even when hard to hear, all comes from a place of caring. People that have been through similar situations and truly want to help.

I know what it feels like to feel like you're being judged for your choices on this board, and I just want to reinforce what others have said above-- take what serves you and leave the rest. Only you truly know your own situation and what works. There are a few of us LBWs who did not kick their cheating WHs out of the house, for various reasons. I think the most important thing is that you need to do what you're comfortable with. If you aren't there yet where you feel OK with booting your H to the curb, that is your call. Yes, maybe things would go faster/better if he goes. But you need to feel like you're making the right decision for yourself and your children, and if right now that means not making any major moves... I think that is OK. I know others may disagree with me here, but I think if you're that against asking him to leave inside of yourself, you need to honor that and instead continue to DB in as many ways as you possibly can while under the same roof.

I think the most important thing is to continue to focus on yourself, your needs, what serves you, and let go of what doesn't. You just can't keep this all up forever-- it is tearing you apart. You need a mental break. What can you do differently today to support yourself? I would suggest stopping cooking him special vegetarian meals, stopping all R talks. Let the house go to h3ll and curl up on the couch with a good book and some fabulous chocolates. Take an extra-long bath. Order your favorite meat-filled take out and enjoy it with your kids. Splurge on a great bottle of wine or beer. Just focus on yourself for a few days and stop worrying about your H and all the havoc he's brought into your life. He doesn't deserve to have so much of your headspace right now. Don't give it to him.

Cultivate detachment like it is your only source of food and water and you're on a desert island. I agree this is the hardest thing to do and so frustrating when everyone here is telling you to detach and it is so much easier said than done. But I think one of the reasons you're getting so much feedback you perceive as negative is because people are watching you hurt and spin and it is painful for all of us too, since we've all been there and it $ucks. This is a fake it til you make it kind of thing and you just have to make yourself let go until one day it will start to stick. Maybe try meditation or yoga-- or if already part of your practice, double down. I watched this short Ryan Holiday stoicism video on sports ("you only control how you play") literally hundreds of times. I don't know why it really spoke to me, but it did. Every time I was in the car or by myself, I played it over and over. You only control you. You don't control him. Drop the paddle, drop the rope, focus on yourself, and let him do whatever he needs to do. Try your very best to stop giving a $hit about what he's doing. He's not worthy. You are.

(((BLUESEA)))

[Spiral]

Before you make him leave, make sure to get an accurate (as possible) list of assets and liabilities. Also find out if any of the recurring bills are in your name. You'll want to make sure that those are paid. A wayward spouse tends to leave his or her responsibilities behind and, in many cases, you'll have to pick up the slack.

-Spiral

[LH19]

B,

I am really sorry you are going through this right now. I want to start off by talking about asking him to leave. First off you legally can't kick him out so let's just take that off the table. Calmly asking him leave establishes the fact that you are not ok with what is going on. That is the starting point. You can't control but this situation in not working for you.

I talk about this all the time that recently I was introduced to a concept that "Live will present you with people and circumstances to show you where you are not free". Totally believe it and in fact you are a prime example of this theory. When I read you don't like to shower alone it spoke volumes to me. You and your H are broken people and you are never going to have a good relationship until you fix yourselves. You can't make him fix himself but you can work on you. Now is the time to take the focus 100% of your husband and put it on you and your children.

Most of people's insecurities come from the feeling that they are not enough. These are usually developed in childhood and carry into adulthood. Your control issues stem from these insecurities. You try to control your husband so he won't leave you because you feel that you're not enough and these behaviors end up turning into a self fulfilling prophecy. This in turn feeds the ego and the ego says "see I was right you are not enough". You've been dealing with this likely for 4 decades so it's going to take a really long time to rewire your brain. The question is to do have it in you?

We are here to help you and support you but at some point you will have to take a leap of faith and let him go. This limbo will beat you to your knees and leave you there permanently if you let it. Life is about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.

[SteveLW]

but then I lose the Pandora's box of every really knowing if he actually was going to cut it off?

Bluesea this is a false sense of security. You will never really know whether he stays or goes. I had a friend that had an affair for a couple of years. She once told me when I confided in her about my W's EA, that if my W wanted to have a PA, she would. Her exact wording about it was "if someone wants to cheat bad enough, they will find a way to do it." So while depressing, I have to see we have seen that behavior in these sitches. That is why we tell LBSs not to tell the cheating spouse HOW or WHAT they know, but just that they know. Otherwise the cheating spouse will take the affair deeper undercover.

[BlueSea]

May, thank you for your post, I came back today after taking a board break for the weekend. And I did just this today,"Order your favorite meat-filled take out and enjoy it with your kids"- it was great! Appreciate your thoughts and support. I spent Saturday with a friend, and it was lovely.


Spiral - appreciate the pragmatism, I am checking out all financial areas and tracking things and trying to see where the money is going and how its being used. thank you.

This limbo will beat you to your knees and leave you there permanently if you let it.

LH - Truer words have never been spoken. I know I need to do this. I know it.

Otherwise the cheating spouse will take the affair deeper undercover.

Steve - I think this is going to be very prophetic for me as you read this post to the end.

My friend that I met with on Saturday is divorced and really stepped thru the D process - for me to understand what was on the other side, and not fear it so much. Without reading any of the philosophies here she was pretty on target with the same advice. I did get re-assurances that asking him to leave at the end of the month was a good target. And we could determine then that a 'check-in' in a month or monthly, would be a plan. She is getting married, and is truly happy, I could see that - she so deserves that. There is happiness post D. (I still wince about going thru it).

SITUATION:
-I am not going to share the details but there was alot of emotions from him this past weekend. He was very open and explained alot to me - shared more than he has ever had - and let me know that I was welcome to come to him anytime. It was helpful for me. He was being human, bordering kind.
-Lot of emotions from him this past weekend. Tearful hug with sorry & emotional talks & emails from him.
-Doesn't matter... he still stepped out on both Sat and Sun night - its too much for me. Its like trying to recover from a burn, but he is keeping me in a hot pan, I keep moving/turning over, but I will never be able to heal.
-Monday, met up with my counselor and stepped out a plan for me to ask him to leave.
-Since that IC meeting was late, I was hustling the kids out the house to get dinner. H called me back in to let me know he was going to do the right thing, give him a week or two and he would end the affair. I told him those were great words, but I needed to see action behind it.
- He told me that even with her gone, we were still not good. But he would be alone, like me, going thru this. (I had given him grief on Sunday that he was going thru this with his lover while I was alone and dealing with the 2 kids)
-I have little hope that he will break it off with her, he considers her a life raft. And without her he worries that he would just jump into mine out of need, not want. And he does not want to be back in this state in 2-3 years.
- WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! heck no, I do not want to do this again in a couple years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....This is what I wanted, right? him back, no OW. (Lets assume he is even able to drop her) ... for whatever reason now I am full of fear and anxiety about that path and I have no idea why!!!

Still have the 'ask to leave' request on the deck but now thinking will give him the 2 weeks and see if he can drop her - that would clearly mean something - if it can be backed up with no more night runs.

[SteveLW]

Bluesea, when he is talking remember: Believe nothing he says, and only half of what he does! I like that you challenged him on action to back up his words, that was good. He needs to know that this gaslighting isn't going to work. And yes, I believe he is in the initial stages of gaslighting you. If you are unfamiliar with gaslighting, look it up.

-I have little hope that he will break it off with her, he considers her a life raft.

I need to challenge you on this because this is something that is difficult for most LBSs because it is their S. But this is why WSs use gaslighting and "talk" a big game. She isn't his life raft. YOU ARE. She is his Plan A right now. But that plan hasn't solidified yet. Maybe she is still living with a LBH? Or is living with a BF she is cheating on? Or she has kids and doesn't want to introduce a man into their lives until she is sure he is there for more than the side action he is getting? Whatever, he is boarding her ship..........and he wants you there hanging from the ropes at the side as his life raft.

Being someone's Plan B, especially someone we've been married to for a long time, is a icky place to be. I know I hated it when I was going through it. But the fact is that he sees her as his new ship, and you as the life raft in case this new ship hits an iceberg.

And without her he worries that he would just jump into mine out of need, not want. And he does not want to be back in this state in 2-3 years.
- WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! heck no, I do not want to do this again in a couple years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is why you cannot allow him to just waltz right back into the MR. Even if he breaks it off you need to have a plan ready of what you need from him. Things like complete openness and transparency with everything in his life: where he is, what he's doing on his phone, etc. Include IC and MC as stipulations for a return to the MR. If you do not require him to do hard work and earn his way back, then yes you are setting yourself up for the same thing again at some point down the line.

....This is what I wanted, right? him back, no OW. (Lets assume he is even able to drop her) ... for whatever reason now I am full of fear and anxiety about that path and I have no idea why!!!

This is good. As someone that is in Ring and piecing for over 2 years now, trust me when I say this is the harder of the two options! Separating and divorcing is a cake-walk compared to reconciling and piecing.....IF YOU DO IT RIGHT. It is a lot of hard work for both you and him. And there will be times you question why you ever wanted it. So I think a healthy fear and anxiety over what comes next IF he is willing to fully commit back to the MR is a good thing.

Still have the 'ask to leave' request on the deck but now thinking will give him the 2 weeks and see if he can drop her - that would clearly mean something - if it can be backed up with no more night runs.

I think this is a good plan. After 2 weeks, when he is still slinking out of the house like the cowardly snake that he is, I think asking him to leave will be more than appropriate.

[LH19]

This is what I wanted, right? him back, no OW. (Lets assume he is even able to drop her) ... for whatever reason now I am full of fear and anxiety about that path and I have no idea why!!!

BlueSea I think it is very important to keep your expectations at zero. Think of a crack addict trying to get off crack. It usually doesn't happen the first time they try. It usually comes after rock bottom. I don't think your husband is at rock bottom. It will be very important that you put no pressure on him in anyway shape or form.

Still have the 'ask to leave' request on the deck but now thinking will give him the 2 weeks and see if he can drop her - that would clearly mean something - if it can be backed up with no more night runs.

I think this is a good idea. Calmly state that he did not follow through on his word and ask him to leave.

[BlueSea]

Just an update:

-Had the initial consultation with a lawyer, he is great, he can file in less than 2 hours if necessary
-H has not gone on any night runs (yet) - 3 nights in the house is a record over here.
-H is DB'ing me right back now. Friendly, does not tee up conversations, but is nice/curt if talked to. wth?

Some H positive changes:
doing dishes, now acknowledges me, hate eye's are gone, seems kinder when approached

Some BlueSea positive changes:
sleeping thru the night - no 3am security camera checks, can smile now, more peacefulness and thinking ahead about choice: such as, in the future, 'Can I stand to be brushing my teeth next to someone that bashed my brains out just a few months ago?' - just momentarily - because 3 nights at home does not constitute a dumped OW and ended affair.

That's all - trying to enjoy the kids and using these days to self-reflect and recoup from the intensity that things were before. I am not a newbie anymore. I am no longer completely engulfed in fire, desperately running & fanning the flames - thank God for that.
BlueSea

[LH19]

Good stuff Blue. Keep expectations at zero. There is always a calm before the storm.

[SteveLW]

Just an update:

-H is DB'ing me right back now. Friendly, does not tee up conversations, but is nice/curt if talked to. wth?

We've seen this before. Likely he is mirroring you since you've been doing this. It doesn't mean he's DBing, it means he's going to behave the way he's seeing you behave.

As LH says. Expectations at zero. When he leaves tonight or tomorrow night you're going to spin because after three nights of not slinking out you've got your hopes up that him doing that is over. It likely is not, so brace yourself.

[BlueSea]

I am trying to keep my feet planted firmly on the ground...H broke it off with the OW tonight

Today:
-Little was said between us today.
-Cooked only for him tonight - as the kids had food out
-Post his exercise time, he was smiling and ready for food - I let him know that I knew he had a long day at work, so no worries about cleaning up anything
- He later texted me that he was going to go out at 1030pm, to make a call, and would be back in 30 mins, and this was a positive thing, for him and me.
-He was gone for about 45 mins, came back, texted me, that "it's done".
-I came out from my room, really not sure how to to be or what to say, just hugged him and told him it was going to be okay. He told me that he 'sunk his life raft' so I told him, that I knew it was hard, and he just said, it is what it is.

I don't know if the gears are going to catch on this.... I have read that these things probably just don't end just like 'that'.

I do have some hope that he is serious about taking a second look at this marriage, granted its still step zero of a million steps that may not end with us together - BUT - tonight I am going to bed relieved!

Will deal with tomorrow's troubles tomorrow.
BlueSea

[LH19]

Blue,

You are going to have to give him time and space to work through this at his own pace. I think it took Sandi two years to burn through her resentment.

You have a long road ahead of you. zero expectations and we are here for support.

[BlueSea]

Thank you LH - I appreciate all the support!!

How do things change now, as far as DB efforts and speaking only when spoken to, keeping it short, cutting off first? Does this continue?

I was thinking next week, start a discussion about MC - too soon?
I know we are not on firm ground - I do want to give him space and time to deal with this OW loss. I plan to definitely stay out of that space so that I don't suffer some friendly fire casualties - as he may lash out at me/ blame me for how he is feeling due to her loss. I understand that was an important relationship for him and it was a support for him during his very low times.

What I don't want to happen is that the loss and need continue/grow such that he goes back to OW. I want to start to step in and fill that space. Its a tenuous line for sure to straddle - give space, but not too much that he feels lonely and is in want of companionship. He had said multiple times that he was lonely.

This is a real limbo - I am praying for guidance on how to be right now. There does not seem to be any tension coming from him during our interactions this morning - more from me! I am a pretty anxious person, and him playing California cool just makes me more anxious - and I hate that I stutter when I speak or when he tells me to speak up - I am not even able to 'fake it til you make it'!

I am sure I come off as a loon ... but maybe that puts him at ease that I am nervous... seems to.

Thanks for any advice,
Blue

[SteveLW]

Bluesea, this is a very dangerous time as a LBS. This board is littered with LBSs that were overanxious when their S started to appear to be turning around, only to see them run the other way.

So the answer is you double-down on your DB efforts. He had a lot of work to do. The worst thing you can go is to just let him back without doing the work he needs to do.If you just let him to waltz back you've taught him "hey, I can go have a PA anytime I want, she will just let me right back."

So yes, let him be the one to start conversation. Be pleasant, polite, upbeat. But be busy. Be the one to end them.

Continue to GAL. Continue to work on your self-improvements. Continue to be healthily detached (google: self-differentiation in marrage).

Also sit down alone and talk about what it will take to rebuild trust. IC for him. IC for you. MC for both of you. Full transparency from him.

Your husband has lied and cheated on you. Remember that. That is not something to just brush under a rug and forget about.

[SteveLW]

I was thinking next week, start a discussion about MC - too soon?
I know we are not on firm ground - I do want to give him space and time to deal with this OW loss. I plan to definitely stay out of that space so that I don't suffer some friendly fire casualties - as he may lash out at me/ blame me for how he is feeling due to her loss. I understand that was an important relationship for him and it was a support for him during his very low times.

WAY TOO SOON. And you shouldn't be starting that. When he is ready he will start a discussion about how to get back to working on the marriage. Any pressure and pursuit on your part will not get you where you want to be.

What I don't want to happen is that the loss and need continue/grow such that he goes back to OW. I want to start to step in and fill that space. Its a tenuous line for sure to straddle - give space, but not too much that he feels lonely and is in want of companionship. He had said multiple times that he was lonely.

You have no control over this. But what I can tell you is that pressure and pursuit NEVER works. He is taking baby steps here. IF (and sorry but it is still a big if right now) he really did end it with OW, that doesn't mean he is now immediately ready to commit back to marriage. This is a common mistake LBSs make. "They ended their PA, now we can start Ring and piecing." It is merely one step in the process.

We have a saying around here, "when they want to come back you will know, when they don't, you will be confused." I am detecting a lot of confustion.

This is a real limbo - I am praying for guidance on how to be right now. There does not seem to be any tension coming from him during our interactions this morning - more from me! I am a pretty anxious person, and him playing California cool just makes me more anxious - and I hate that I stutter when I speak or when he tells me to speak up - I am not even able to 'fake it til you make it'!

I am sure I come off as a loon ... but maybe that puts him at ease that I am nervous... seems to.

Thanks for any advice,
Blue

You are making a common LBS mistake. "He is being nice to me! That means we are good!" and then "Oh, no, he is being mean to me! We have no hope!"

NOTE: That isn't detachment. Detachment is when you are even emotionally no matter what he says or does. I find that overly codependent LBWs find detachment to be extra difficult. Part of it is that they fail to really understand what detachment is and means.

Further, being anxious is fine. This is all hard stuff you are dealing with. If he wants to R then you being anxious or not won't matter! Trust me on that.

But what I do want to caution you on, and I am going to be blunt though LH tried to elude to this in his last response: Just because he says it is over with OW DOESN'T MEAN IT IS! Remember, you are still at a phase where you should be believing NOTHING HE SAYS...and only half of what he does.

Lots of cheating spouses tell their LBSs that they have ended the A. Only to take the A deeper under cover. So how can you be sure he isn't just being manipulatiive? That he is telling you what you want to hear, and then backing it up with "being nice", to throw you off the scent. How do you know he really told her it was over? Or did he tell her "we need to cool it for a while so that the current storm can blow over."? Or did he tell her "hey, we are going to have to change our arrangements, sneaking out at 3am is causing me problems."?

How do you know any of that? You don't. That is why we say, when ever the question comes up "How will I know that the A is REALLY over?" The answer is: When you see consistent behavior over a long period of time.

And a long period of time is not 3 nights. It isn't it one week. It is 3 months MINIMUM. And more like 6-12 months.

One other thing. When my W's EAs ended, both times, she went through a major depression and sadness that last weeks the first time (in 2005) and several days in the most recent (end of 2017). If you do not see him going through a mourning period at having lost his "life raft" I would seriously question if he really sunk it.

Also, if he does go through that mourning period there is nothing you can do to help him. He has to grieve, get it out of his system, and move on. Further, since he is mourning the loss of an OW, not only can't you help him. But you shouldn't be helping him!! Think about it....your H is grieving the loss of his illicit lover, and you want to console him? FORGET THAT NOISE.

I made that mistake in 2005. And it set me up for another BD 12 years later. In my most recent sitch, when the EA ended and she was sad, and lonely and mopey, she was on her own.

Slow down Bluesea. Take a wait and see approach. Remember, fool you once, shame on him. Fool you twice, SHAME ON YOU. Don't be fooled again.

[BlueSea]

Thank you Steve - as always excellent advice especially this: "Slow down Bluesea - Take a wait and see approach"

It is always my tendency to rush forward.

I will keep my emotions in check around any type of celebration that OW is really gone. 3 months sounds like the longest stretch ever right now...but knowing that to continue to DB is the right approach is good guidance... this I can do. I do rely alot on you and the advice here to breadcrumb me to the next spot.

I don't think he can hide or take this any deeper, if he goes out for an extended period of time, I am going to assume what it is. What is good is that I am detached enough to know there is wisdom to asking him to leave if all this OW business is still going on. I don't think I could have done that before.

Will lay low with zero expectations. Give him space, assume that he is trying, but also be aware/suspicious. What I do appreciate is that he is acting human again, not scary. If he dips back, then I will know there is another storm coming.

[BlueSea]

Journal:

Saturday
-After a discussion on Friday night, where I asked for transparency (let me see accounts, etc) he seemed to want to sweep all this under the rug, I listened.
-Overnight really became pretty upset, so Saturday morning when he asked how I was, I pretty much let him have it
-Upset that he has minimized all what I went thru and the family
-I have to say, I let it all out - it was time he understood the pain and havoc he wrecked
-I let him know it was time he took it on the chin for once, I had alot of anger, and it all spewed out. Anyone over 40 is on a journey for happiness, did not give one the right to throw their loved ones under the bus.
-It was a 4 hour session that had me go from yelling, to him acknowledging, to us talking, to me crying, to us both sharing/setting expectations going forward on both sides - pretty cathartic on both sides I believe.

Sunday
- H is pretty engaged (focused more on the kids than me, but thats fine).
-Watched movie on the couch both Friday night and Saturday night with ds13
-Family online service this morning, followed by breakfast, and he invited all of us to his hometown for a trip at end of July, as well as a family trip to a theme park for July 4th

Strangeness.... as if it never happened, almost...but not really, its like when you burn toast and the smell is still in the air. I am full on suspicious, the rug could be pulled at any second. He has made it fully clear to me in our Sat discussion that he sees hope that we could work out, but, we are far from a good place.

He asked for time and space, I agree - but since we both have no idea how to move forward - a MC session for one hour a week would not hurt in lieu of any R talks between us. He was okay with that. Me too.

I want to cater to his MLC needs, but, at this point I want to recognize that I have needs, and start moving my name up the list. All these months have taken alot out of me, and part of the reason we got here is because I did not attend to myself and consider myself important enough to.

[SteveLW]

Remember, keep DBing! Continue to GAL. Keep working on those 180s. Most of all continue to be differentiated! Unless you keep this up you are setting up for another BD! Do not fall into the trap I did after my first sitch in 2005!

[BlueSea]

Remember, keep DBing! Continue to GAL. Keep working on those 180s. Most of all continue to be differentiated! Unless you keep this up you are setting up for another BD! Do not fall into the trap I did after my first sitch in 2005!

Steve - you have completely scared me... I have been on the boards, in the archives, digging around for what to do now. Please share your insight on what happened to you in 2005 and what you would have done differently. I want to apply that knowledge to my situation - I DO NOT want to go thru this ever again. Your first go around also lasted 4 months, very similar to mine.

I don't think he has hit rock bottom such that he appreciates me or his family. Is this all just enforcing that he can walk in and out of this marriage at will - that I will "always" just be there for him? We both know I never fully detached. I just read a posting from a husband who walked out and said he always knew his wife would be there - so he just continued to take advantage UNTIL he thought he would lose her. It really was when I told him, that I had come to a decision that I would be sharing with him that weekend... and that Monday (when I had told him it would take a bit longer (i had an appt with a lawyer though he did not know)) he approached me and said he was cutting it off. 3 days later he did 'break' up with her. Its just been a week. But again, the point here, was that until he saw me moving towards seriously dropping him, that he made a change.

I felt like I just got thru hell - with all this OW situation - (and not even 100% sure that will never re-surface). I would really appreciate your input from your experience!!

[SteveLW]

Bluesea, essentially what happened in 2005, was after my W's EA, when I confronted she immediately said she didn't want a D. She sent a NC email to the OM the next day. She then struggled for weeks with getting over her addiction to the EA. The OM only responded to her one time essentially telling her that that he didn't want to create anymore problems for her which is why he was not responding.

For my part, I just went back to business as normal.The changes I made were clearly just to get her back. And while I didn't just revert to my old self over night, it was a slow burn back to where I had been prior to the discovery of the EA. I had made no real changes. And therefore:

Our MR 1.0 continued and we never moved on to MR 2.0. We still had a SSM. I still was relying on her to make me happy. This caused my resentment to start building up again almost immediately. I'd say that things were pretty good for about 3-4 years, and then by year 5 my resentment level was once again to the point where I was behaving poorly, being selfish, consumed with how I could get what I wanted/needed while punishing her by not giving her what she wanted/needed.

In other words, we put no work into ourselves or our MR.

It took 12 years, but eventually BD#2 happened. And it was much worse the second time.

[may22]

Bluesea, not to hijack your thread, but I think these questions have relevance to you too--

Bluesea, essentially what happened in 2005, was after my W's EA, when I confronted she immediately said she didn't want a D. She sent a NC email to the OM the next day. She then struggled for weeks with getting over her addiction to the EA. The OM only responded to her one time essentially telling her that that he didn't want to create anymore problems for her which is why he was not responding.

For my part, I just went back to business as normal.The changes I made were clearly just to get her back. And while I didn't just revert to my old self over night, it was a slow burn back to where I had been prior to the discovery of the EA. I had made no real changes.

Steve, I get that you didn't really do work on yourself in 2005 and then did so after the second incident and how that allowed you to move into M2.0. My question is-- what about your W? Sounds like she didn't put any work in after BD1, but did she after BD2? I'm assuming so... but how did that happen? Did she commit to making changes too-- beyond letting go of the EAP-- and how was that visible to you? Were you able to eventually communicate your needs to her and she listened and changed, or was it all self-focused change initiated by you that then led her to mirror or think or make changes herself?

It seems to me like DBing is focusing on you, being your best self, but not necessarily being vulnerable to your S. At what point did you feel OK opening back up to her?

I know she didn't MO and you've felt that that was an important aspect to R-ing in your sitch, b/c if she had left she would have had a lot harder time coming back. I have felt the same with my H (though perhaps now OK with him not coming back... working on this). People say here when they are ready for R, you won't be confused. That feels easy to assess when the WS has moved out and you have some real separation. How does that look when you're under the same roof?

Bluesea... FWIW, there are a lot of parallels between our situations. After I found out about the extent and length of his A in December (he had previously only admitted to an EA, less than half of the time, and was telling me he was no longer in contact with her when he was), we had six weeks of tortuous limbo and DC. I do believe, like you, it wasn't until my H could tell I was serious about D and burst his fantasy D bubble that he moved into the space of making the decision to break it off with AP, which he did in mid-February. (It's weird, some of the things you've said your H has said to you sound exactly like what my H said to me when he was in the process of breaking it off with her.) Things have been getting better and better to the point that I thought we were maybe ready to enter piecing when he suddenly reestablished contact with her last week and is now completely back to where he was in January.

Of course my sitch is very fresh and I don't know what is really going on or what i'm going to do. (Steve, would appreciate any thoughts if you want to peek on my thread). But the one thing I think I would do differently and that I would pass along to you is KEEP DBing, just as Steve said. Don't drop your guard. Honor your own needs yourself and don't rely on him to help you heal right now. We made it a little less than four months before he completely backslid. So I think that maybe when you start to see positive signs, keep your head down and keep DBing. This is not for the impatient or the faint of heart!

[Cadet]

Cadet -- the links you posted in the intro on this thread... this one does not work:

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

(It gets you to the thread, but the thread to HB sermons is not linking) This one:

HB gave us this all sermons thread in the archives
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96158&page=1

Would really like to read some her sermons, I heard she is legendary, and what I could find was amazing...much thanks Cadet for any help!

Sorry Shane if this appears hi-jacky!!

This has been purged from DB however I will give you them from my own private notes

The importance of establishing a "Time-Line"

October 1999-My husband was involved in an accident that killed a man instantly. He had a nervous breakdown that day and beat himself to pieces for something that was NOT his fault-nothing I or his sister could say would make him feel better.

Late November 1999-He experiences a great burst of anger-entering the tunnel but I was unaware of anything EXCEPT I sensed the emotional "door" closing between us.

November 1999-December 2000-He withdraws at times, throws tantrums at others-insults me at times, but yet so loving at others-We are fighting near continuous-more than once I saw him throw his wallet at the front door or throw glasses in the sink because he feels that what he says is NOT being listened to. Tells me to "shut up" near constantly-and no matter what I say or do--it's not right in his eyes-and I'm confused.

Skips checking for my voicemail messages some nights-seems to be 'teasing' me about running away with a "boyfriend" if I'm late leaving a message. Starts coming home later and later on Fridays nights, and sometimes wouldn't show up until Saturday morning of each week.

Ignored me and son totally, and shuts down-we bought a house during 2000, and moved-the stress of all this got to me, and I blew up one night in November of 2000, he threatened to leave me that first time, saying he didn't have to listen to what I was saying-I begged him not to leave me-and we ended up on the bathroom floor, trying to figure out what had triggered this HUGE fight.

In hindsight, not long after we moved in September of 2000, our emotional and spiritual bond disintegrated-and I felt the effects of that break.
His distancing got worse AFTER the fight in November.

January 2001-August 2001 He spends more and more time on the computer-becomes more angry and distant. I'm at a loss what to do except to leave him alone. If I did ANYTHING in the way of affection-I would get angry looks and if I interrupted him, I would get angry looks.
If I entered the room while he was on the computer, he would close whatever he was looking at-I didn't think too much of that.

In May, things took a different turn-he came out of the bathroom one day and I saw he'd shaved his beard down into a goatee' and the look on his face was like that of a small child that had done something wrong-I didn't like the goatee' I HATED it, and said so. He just disregarded me.

I began to discover breath mints, he began taking care of himself even better than he had in the past-I just went on with my life-it was all I could do-I didn't know anything then-I just trusted him like I had always had done.

In July 2001, his Dad died, but he didn't call me to tell me until TWO hours after he knew-and he acted strangely, not wanting me to go with him, and I thought I wasn't going to be able to as son was going to summer school at that time, and couldn't miss.

My sister-in-law offered, on her own to keep son while we went, and my husband was NOT enthusiastic about it--strange, considering you'd think he'd have WANTED my comfort, but he didn't.

The whole trip was weird-He stepped out of the motel room and was gone for almost three hours, and his excuse, when he came back was that he'd talked to the clerk-I found out later on that the OW had a 1-800 number, and figured that part out in hindsight.

PLUS-I discovered he has TWO messages on his cell-phone, but he won't allow me to retrieve them for him, says his "code" was messed up-his step-mother said she left ONLY one-guess who the other was from? OW, no doubt.

Anyway, he's in this big hurry to come back and go to work after the funeral, even though his step-mother begged him to stay at least one more night, but he refused. I can't explain his attitude-it was like he couldn't have cared less how she felt, and he didn't want to take time out of HIS life to spend time with her. I remember being VERY angry about what he did, but couldn't do anything about it.

And so we resumed our lives, supposedly. By August of 2001, I was UNABLE to reach him anymore-things were bottoming out, and though I knew he loved me(or thought he did) I didn't think he cared. And so therefore I let him go into the hands of the Lord to deal with.

September 2001 marked a turning point-two days after the attack on the World Trade center, I was fixing to log-into the internet when I saw that my reycle bin had something in it-I hadn't thrown anything away, and so I looked, discovering my son was accessing pornography--oh LORD!

I called him into the room and showed him what I'd found, and got onto him, telling him that he was grounded until I could speak with his dad about it.

I was floored, but ok, understanding that kids sometimes are curious-but of course I couldn't tell HIM that. LOL

Then it occurred to me that the cookies were still on the system and I had to get them off. When I ran a search, my HUSBAND'S login showed up-and my heart dropped into my stomach-I logged into his desktop, and looked at his history-and discovered HE was accessing--and had been for over FIVE months-mostly red-headed porn.

This was the bomb that got dropped on me.

It was two more days before I could confront him, and I did it over the phone-we had a really strange conversation, but it seemed important to him that I not throw him out-and the "old" me was still there, so you can imagine the tantrum I threw! LOL

He said many strange things-like when I kissed him, he said, like it was new discovery, that I had the SAME affect on him I always had-and in hindsight, again, I now know he'd fallen out of love with me, and OW was there and had been there, possibly since December 1999.

September 2001-January 2002 After two weeks of attempting to get to the bottom of this, he decides he doesn't want to do this anymore, and more garbage spewed, possibly from guilt and who knows what else.

In late October 2001, I started finding signs of an affair-and I lived in denial for two weeks because I COULDN'T believe he had done this to me. But I was living blind and I knew it, so I asked for the blinders to be taken off my eyes-and they were. Every sign you could imagine, hit me in the face-my husband was CHEATING on me, but lied when I confronted him and threatened to leave in late November, when I finally jumped him.

It was the start of three weeks worth of misery and emotional deprivation that was worse than what I had suffered before.

We were arguing constantly, and he laid down the law to me concerning SEX of all things-that I couldn't have him when I wanted him-I would just have to hold him and be fulfilled.
Or when OW would come up: He'd say that he was too fat and ugly, and NO girl would look at him-and the arguments went on and on, and the ANGER in him was terrible.

Though he first said that I hadn't anything to cause this, he then turned around and said I hadn't given him enough SEX during our marriage-it was actually the OTHER way around-he was projecting his feelings on me. He also said that I criticized when I shouldn't-another projection.

He also said we needed to start out as Friends first then progress to the lover's stage-I remember hitting him with "Friends don't DO things like this to each other."

And I just kept arguing with him, which made things worse and worse, pushing me to the brink of suicide-that was when I found Jim Conway's site and found some of the answers I needed.

When I finally GOT what I had to do, and asked the Lord to help me, things started to get better, but were far from being finished. It was strong, within my own mind by December 15, that I had had enough and was leaving-the next day my "guide" showed up, and started me along the path to where I needed to be.

A couple of days later, he began making his way out of the tunnel-traveling the emotional parts, hitting a major change on December 31, 2001-it was another three weeks before he bottomed out, not once, but twice, and instead of starting into Acceptance, he bounced into Withdrawal instead.


February 2002-March 2002-It was during this time, my husband stayed in Withdrawal-trying NOT to have to face the changes he would have to make, and his "head-clearing" tantrum, and some of my more important lessons were learned during this time. On March 24th, he broke that Withdrawal, and talked some asking me for forgiveness, confirming WHEN this started-after that he started into the final stages of Acceptance.

April 2002-July 2002 This was a strange time for me, as I discovered he still didn't "get it"-that, in a way, it was STILL all about him, and nothing concerning me. There were many hurdles to get past, and I was disgusted many times-he kept slipping back and forth between Withdrawal and Depression, having "pity" parties for himself, that I listened to quite often.

In late May, we rebonded emotionally-and in early June, another change occurred, I started seeing a "replay" of December.

He would run me over to get to the phone-and an old fear jumped up and bit me in the tail-I ended up picking a fight with him, and more lies were told. I remember telling him that "this is STILL ALL about you, isn't it? When you are ready to talk to me, you know where I am."

The split began all over again, only this time there was no "old" to see, only new and the children. And, of course I was on the road with him as he passed through the final revisitations of the stages.

Going into early July he was still "processing", but on July 10, the spiritual bond between us rebuilt itself, and he crossed over into the final stage of Acceptance.

Through the rest of July, August and on into September, he has continued to process himself -AND YES, he FINALLY asked for the answers that were inside him all along, and he began to receive those- and I have seen him change continuously into what he is becoming-on September 28, he passed OUT of the storm, facing his Final Fears on November 3, coming out of the 'gate' completely.

His ending and my ending has come together, as I finished the "clean-up" November 25, 2002, with an outpouring of "old" feelings to make way for the new ones in this New Beginning that we are both experiencing. He has NOT come out the same person he was-it is like getting to know him ALL over again, and he has to get to know ME all over again, for BOTH have changed and are NOT the SAME people we were.

Edit for some material by the author - Cadet

This concerns LIFE'S LESSONS


The life's lessons you are to learn out of this are simple ones, but HARD to put into actions

They involve Control Lessons first and foremost.

The rule of thumb to remember is the only person you can control in this life is YOU, not anyone else-and change must begin within before a situation changes without.

That means ALL control you THINK you have must be released: physical, spiritual-everything.

The MLC'er, no matter how erratic he/she is acting, is NOT a child, and does NOT need help-they must be allowed to work this out on their own and make decisions accordingly.

I know you think you are helping if you try to show them what you perceive they are doing wrong, but they will see it as CONTROL, and run further away.

You have to learn to separate the behavior from the person, and set boundaries as to what you will and won't accept, taking care of YOU in the process.

Focusing on what the MLC'er is or is not doing is NOT helping YOU-it is only dragging you down further and further, and you WILL hit rock-bottom and have a nervous breakdown, worrying about things you CANNOT and DO NOT have control over.

You must learn, also to STAY CALM in conflict-the more emotional power you give a situation, the worse it can escalate. Tap into the inner strength you KNOW is there and use it to your advantage.

You must face Childhood Wounds and heal them, whatever those may be, and they will be found on your journey to find YOU. That means exploring your childhood, looking at the patterns YOU are repeating-and change your behavior accordingly-that is part of your growth.

Remember no one does anything to YOU-they do it to THEMSELVES, as this has NOTHING to do with you, and everything to do with THEM.

IF you don't like a situation, CHANGE IT-taking the steps necessary to do so. Each individual is different and it may take a combination of things to achieve this change.

Learn that happiness, self-validation, self-esteem etc comes from WITHIN you, and is NOT found in outside factors-NO ONE can make you "complete". You must learn to find these things WITHIN.

Then, and only then will True Love be born-you will need because you love, not love because you need.

Accepting yourself is extremely important as we must live with ourselves for the rest of our lives, and we know deep within our hearts what we can and cannot live with.

We must "let go" no matter how painful that might be, it is through the giving of this freedom, we may regain our MLC spouse. Because we will NEVER own anyone, but OURSELVES.

That inner peace we are searching for CAN be attained through the "letting go" totally-it is the peace we can have WITHIN the storm.

And until we reach that point, we will always be confused-it is through the clearing of our mind that the answers will come from the place they have always been--within ourselves.

There are NO answers to be found outside of us, otherwise.

We can and must trust ourselves to do the right thing at all times, trusting in the Lord to guide our feet along this journey.

And understand that NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, we WILL be all right.


This concerns TOTAL DETACHMENT

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when we detach completely, what makes us want to get BACK involved with our WAS's?
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One of the biggest factors is the hope of getting a better marriage out of this ugly mess, which I'm getting now. Sure, there will always be problems and it won't be "paradise" from what I have seen come about as he has changed, it is MUCH better than what I had the first 16 years of marriage.

But then I'VE changed, too, and know more of what I want and need out of this marriage, and I don't hesitate to ask for it.

And there are better things out there, PLUS worse things out there-the question is, what would you find first?

EVERYBODY has problems of varying degrees-there are very few that have undertaken the journey we have gone through, and come out changed and mature(intact).

The change that comes is one of maturity-and love is there NOT because of need-it is the other way around-the need is there BECAUSE of the love. And the married couple truly becomes FRIENDS for the first time in their lives, able to lean on one other and carry each other's burdens when needed-it becomes as it should have been to begin with.

I didn't realize until my husband came out of his storm with all these changes that a cycle had been broken-he no longer treated me as my dad had-my changes and wound-healing had something to do with that, which, in turn evoked a change in HIM.

And yes, I like what he has become MUCH better than what he used to be. And can work with it.

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What did it feel like, from your view, after you detached?
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What he didn't seem to matter as much, and his behavior didn't affect me like it once had-before he would have upset me badly when he got angry, now it doesn't even affect me-I usually tell him I'm sorry he feels the way he does, and just leave it at that. If he's irritated about something, instead of automatically thinking it was my fault, like I once did, I ask him if he'd like to talk about it-if he doesn't, I just leave him alone, and he usually comes and talks to me sometimes.

But, I don't "get scared" that he's planning something out of the ordinary-I'm strong enough to take whatever comes around-it was part of my changes, too. I back down enough so he knows I DO need him-this was a problem before, but I don't get all "clingy" and "desperate" with him. It would run him off, I believe.


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Is your H a much smaller part of your life and thoughts?
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Yes, and no. He does NOT consume my life and thoughts like he once did-I DO have a life of my own or a reasonable facsimile, thereof. My life, is actually quite boring to other people-I don't go out much and when I worked, I usually went to work, came home, did what I had to do in the house, taking care of business here on the home-front-it is much like I used to do.

I visit sometimes, but I don't stay gone from home much-and I spend time with our son-as much as he can stand me.

In effect, I don't do ANYTHING except what is required of me, here at home.

I spend time with my husband when he comes in off the road....

I choose to spend my time the way I see fit, and I do NOT pursue my husband for attention-that backfired on me before-so he pursues ME.

But the main thing is, I'm content with my life as it is. I'm not hard to please, and I don't crave excitement.

I think of him quite often, but not obsessive thoughts-that is part of being detached from him.

I love him, but he is not a means to an end, either. If he left me tomorrow, with the lessons I've learned, I would understand it was NOT me, but HIM.

And so, the cage door stays open-he can choose to leave ANYTIME he wants to, but so can I, and he knows this.

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Reconnecting with our H would not end our journey because they are the reason we are on it and changes need to be made to continue on with them. We cannot go back to the way things were, the old M is dead. If we were to hook up with someone else, they would be wanting us for who we are now and we would not feel the need to change/grow and we wouldn't. Thus ending our journey. In fact to find someone right now and hook up with them would validate in our minds that we don't need to make any changes because we are "wanted" by someone just the way we are.
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She is correct, S&A. Reconnecting with my husband did NOT stop my journey, as evidenced by my posts concerning this journey we are on.

We will continue on this journey long past the "changing" stage, where our changes will be "tested" over and over again, until they are in place permanently.

Only then will we be allowed to "move on", forgetting the pain, but remembering the LESSONS, we were taught.

And we won't do that until we learn EVERY lesson we are given to learn.

I discovered there was ONE MORE THING I had to learn besides the basic life's lessons, and I went on to learn ONE final lesson, ONLY THEN, have I begun to "move on" with my life.

I learned not to gripe and complain, and the reason why I shouldn't-as it does NOT change anything, and keeps the original problem alive and well, getting me "stuck".


And, in essence, I am finishing my journey in tandem with my husband-because I started on this journey BECAUSE of him in the first place.

The growing HAS to take place and the changes HAVE to be made, otherwise, you will recycle what you didn't learn another time-and that trial might be much worse than what you are currently going through.

I was shown that while in this-and thinking I wanted to escape it-but I couldn't if I wanted to come through completely and keep my marriage, too.

Besides, I loved and still love my husband with the SAME unconditional love I always had, this time, though it's GOD'S LOVE I love him with, as my human love would NOT withstand what I was going through during that time.

I had ALWAYS loved him unconditionally, no matter what, and he was unable to accept that in the past, always "setting me up" to reject him, which I NEVER did.

That was the difference between me and his mother-and the reason behind the affair.


I was not given this understanding in ONE day-it came over months of growing and changing, and being willing to listen and learn, opening my mind to what the Lord was showing me.

He showed me a great deal about my husband AND me, plus what led up to his MLC.

I was able, then, to understand the "whys" and "hows" of this whole trial.

And some of it, I got at one sitting-some came trickling down a little at a time, when I could understand better.

And, like I've posted before, I knew what the OUTCOME of this was going to be, all I had to do was walk the journey, making the necessary decisions to get there.

I was one of the blessed ones, who knew from the start, and I asked why the Lord was so willing to show me to outcome-and it was because I had always been obedient to Him in ALL things.

He also said the marriage was meant to be, and meant to go on, as He had put me and my husband together in the first place-and of course this was done for a reason-we both had things to teach one another that would take a lifetime to learn.

There was hope as long as I still loved my husband, and I came on through with him, obeying ALL I was told to do-and each time I was given instruction, I was told the outcome, but it was up to me to do what I was told to do to bring about what was to be.

I made many mistakes, and time was added because of those mistakes-and there were some mistakes made on my husband's part-and again, time was added-we BOTH had a hand in lengthening this.

But that time was necessary to make sure the lessons held, and I accepted that-I had to.

Many times I got disgusted and wanted to run away, my patience was being developed during this trial, and everything that happened, increased my patience-it was the gift I was most lacking in, so therefore, my trials to develop Patience were the worst.

But, the Lord was AlWAYS patient and long-suffering with me, letting me know all the time, that it was up to me to stay or leave-and reminding me of what would happen if I did.

No, I didn't stay because of the Lord, though I was obedient to Him in ALL things-I stayed because I loved my husband and was willing to forgive him, and help him rebuild our lives together.

I have been married all my life, and my husband is, in spite of what he put me through, a good man, and I know I could NOT do any better than him-he has always taken care of me, we both have faults and make mistakes, and I know that, too.

I decided to keep what I had, knowing he DOES love me dearly, more now than he ever did, and it SHOWS in a way it never did before.

And, though he said, while deep within the tunnel, he loved me just the way I was, the changes HAD to made, anyway-I don't believe I would be married now if I hadn't taken the time to learn, grow, and change.

[Cadet]

This concerns BECOMING THE OPPOSITE

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But anyway, Saph, it may not be good DBing and I do realize that and have tried to urge the church to confront H like Christ rather than like the Pharasees. But God called me to file(with the church)...I am sure of this...as I did not want to do it. I am not a trouble maker and am quite shy and timid and confronting and challenging my church of 4000 members is not in my nature to do. I felt alot like Jonah for awhile as God was calling me to do this and I was saying "I dont hear you". He got louder until I consented.
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I started to answer this the other day, but my husband came home for a week, so I've not gotten back until today.

NOW,

I was struck by what I read, and now fully understand what you are having to do.

Just as the MLC'er BECOMES the opposite of what they were pre-tunnel, the Left-Behind Spouse BECOMES the opposite of what THEY were through the journey that must be taken to "grow up".

The weak become strong; the strong become weak, the quiet become loud, the loud become quiet--see the correlation?

We MUST become direct opposites of what we were before--as I had to do during my husband's MLC, and the changes on our end MUST become permanent.

I was outspoken, and had to become quiet. I was a pursuer, and had to become the pursued. I was emotionally out of control, and I had to become calm.

I was instructed to keep quiet no matter what my husband did or said, while YOU are being instructed to bring this all out in the open using what you have been given to use.

It seems that He looks at our personalities, and causes us-if we allow HIM to change us- to become the OPPOSITES of what we were before, and uses us to bring about circumstances we wouldn't normally bring about due to the way our personalities are.

What we would NORMALLY do, is NOT what we SHOULD do. We must do the OPPOSITE.

That is WHY there are NO set rules for dealing with our husband's MLCs. And, though I KNEW about becoming the opposite of what I had been before, I didn't know WHY, until NOW.

And, you know, I never THOUGHT to question Him on it. When I became the opposite of what I was before, it worked, just has He had said it would, and I simply thanked Him for helping me to change and went on.

I had advised in one of my threads concerning BECOMING the OPPOSITE, but at that time, I don't think I expounded on WHY-I actually didn't know why, I just knew it had to be done.

Now, I know why.

The reason we must become the opposite of what we were before is we must learn to experience ALL facets of our personalities, and face EVERYTHING we are--we are preparing for the second stage of life, and ALL facets of our personality must be brought forward and integrated, and in the process, we are changed forever by the Lord.

He has allowed this to happen, yes, to test you, but you are being "molded" on the potter's wheel at the same time-and that in itself causes a "breakdown" of your "old" self, bringing about the fashioning of a "new" self. Though this trial, we are thrown repeatedly against the wheel until we come back together (are integrated) into someone totally new.

In your mind, you are seeing what didn't work before, and so you, yourself, are in the process of changing into someone you weren't before, just as your spouse has become the opposite of what he was before-his personality should undergo the near exact same changes you are going through and he should reintegrate into a different person, too-IF he allows this to change him-once OW is gone and he is out of the tunnel.

At times you are resisting the changes, but here is where faith is exercised, and you must allow the Lord to change you-this is the way it must be, He knows what you will face later on, and that is why these changes are necessary-you are being equipped for something that's coming down the road.

You are learning to stand up and stand strong in a way you haven't had to do before-and though the first standing is hard, it will get easier once it's done. You are learning to walk on faith in a way you've not done before, because before, you were AFRAID, and the Lord is driving the fear out of you with what He is doing within you.

We are instructed to bring about certain situations to get certain results, and the Lord knows what He is doing when we receive instruction, and usually, you are advised of the outcome so you will know ahead of time what will happen if you do, and the consequences if you don't obey.

Becoming the opposite is a necessary part of "growing up" and coming forward, as we must learn to handle ANY situation-and the changes within must happen.




This concerns Temptation during Total Rejection


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However, I would caution you (and everyone else) to beware of trying to get our needs filled through another man. We are at a very vulnerable place right now and in my opinion we could all be affairs waiting to happen. Be wise in your relationships with men. As an example, I am friends with a married couple and they both equally want to help me. However, I've set up boundaries with the man such as never meeting alone and never talking on the phone with him unless his wife is on the extension. I don't have any sort of "designs" on him by any means, but I do believe I would be stupid to think that nothing could ever happen. We mustn't let Satan get a foothold.
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I have preached about this SAME thing before about the DANGEROUS position the WAS places the LBS in while they are out trying to find themselves and have gotten OW.

I REMEMBER that one pretty clearly. And, like you, ICBI, I recognized the dangers of accidentally getting involved with another man-I isolated myself from ALL men except my brother-in-law(I trust and still trust him), and the only people I associated with were women during that time.

I did it to protect THEM AND ME. The abandoned and unloved feelings were pretty bad for me-worse feelings I had ever felt in my life-I mean it was like totally being cut-off from feeling loved-and I had NO ONE except the Lord-and me.

I did make it through and the feelings DID pass, but it was several MORE weeks before I would trust myself to associate with the men I knew at work again-and I never told them what I was doing, I just distanced myself from them, and wouldn't even talk to them-thank goodness they never paid that much attention to what I was doing. LOL

I asked the Lord to keep helping me through, and He did, but I had to face this temptation and overcome it.

It would have been so easy to have gotten involved with another-and I could see that ahead of time as this started.

So she's right, you MUST be careful--you would betray YOURSELF-and both of you would have matching guilt and things might get worse instead of better.

On the other hand, most importantly-it is considered ADULTERY; hands down if you get involved with another while still married, regardless if sex was involved or not. And that is what I think.

Gotta watch Satan closely during this time-he will throw temptation down in front of you in a hurry, because he would like nothing better than to see you fall down hard.


It was also shown to me a long time later that I delved MUCH deeper into myself during this time, as my journey to find me was beginning, and the vast majority of what I looked at, of course had to do with ME. Everything I needed to look at and work through was brought up during that same time, and I don't think I'd have seen it that clearly if I hadn't gone through what I did.

What my husband did in depriving me, felt like a "repeat" of my emotionally deprived childhood-and old wounds were ripped open then-but they were healed later on--I'm not sure when that happened-but I do know it was later, sometime during my journey.

The changes I made had alot to do with those old wounds, and that was shown to me later on, too.

All things happen for reason, always.

First of all, S&A, you have answered your OWN question, so, really you KNOW the answer and it lies deep within your OWN heart.

You recognize that you are NOT finished with your journey in this pit you have been in for two years. And until you ARE finished, you will still be in there.

I've said this before, but I was commanded to CHOOSE before the worst parts of this came about-BEFORE I even KNEW about the affair-and I was told the outcomes either way. I had just a couple of days before discovered his access of pornography, and was understandably angry-but went before the Lord to see what I should do-so I wouldn't do anything foolish.

You see the devil had put in a bid for my family-with me being the STRONGER-I had to be convinced to bow out(Satan had used my husband against me because he was unable to bring me down directly), first-then the rest would follow, and these were things I was shown AFTER I chose my path-and in my mind there was NO going back.

I could have gone either way-the Lord does NOT tamper with Free Will-He already KNEW what I would do, but He STILL had to give me that choice-and my love being what it was I chose my marriage knowing He would work things out.

And it went from there to here-the path was FULL of obstacles and decisions to make to get where I am now. I was not ever allowed to just sit and wait-there were instructions I had to follow-just as you are having to do now-and things I was guided into that brought about positive results.

The Lord WAS with me during the time of total rejection, and strengthened me-because I ASKED Him to. I knew, like you do, if I did anything like my husband had done, I would betray ME-and I was still married, faithful to my vows, and I still LOVED him.

Besides the Lord kept counseling me, showing me that my husband did STILL love me, but was so confused and his feelings were buried deep within himself.

The MOST important thing shown to me of all was, that if I changed my mind, left my husband and married another-which was MY right to do, I would repeat this whole process ALL over again-and with the Lord promising me that my marriage would come back together, and things would be better-I would have been STUPID to have strayed from the course I had decided on.

The devil, on the other hand, continued to try and try and get me to bow out and leave, but I never would-and so that made my trial much harder.

I have seen ALL things the Lord has told me ahead of time come to pass except one-and it's upon me-and I cannot tell what it is-because of Satan--but I will tell all when it happens, because it signifies the END of everything.

I have been holding onto the promise of the Lord concerning the END for over a year-and I look back, seeing how far I have come from where I was.

He charged me to obey Him in ALL things, just like I had always done before, and I didn't miss--I knew I couldn't-whatever I was told, I did, even if I was uncertain deep within my heart, because logically, it didn't look like it would work out--but it did. He knew MORE than I did, and STILL knows more than I do.

I have seen my faith and belief in Him increase greatly over this last year, and I do NOT doubt Him in any way-although the devil has tried hard to shake my faith and place doubts in my mind many times-all I ever knew to do was HOLD ON and just keep going.

Yes, there were times of anger and frustration and impatience on my part, but those feelings were carefully hid and controlled, because to let them out gave the devil a place and power over me-and I could NOT allow that to happen.

Most of all, I was shown that I was the "key" to restoring my husband to fellowship with the Lord. That is all I can say about that, but a great deal rested on ME to help him come through his MLC.

As close as you are to the Lord, S&A you KNOW His voice-it is unmistakable-and as long as you listen to Him, you will NEVER go wrong.

You have always appeared to be extremely discerning when it came to what you believe. Listen within yourself NOW, and hear His voice speak within you-for His sheep KNOW His voice, and you are NO different.


You WILL know if/when the time comes to give up and go on with your life-He will let you know. But, at the same time, HE will tell you that it is YOUR decision, and will give you the consequences of your actions either way-as it concerns YOU AND YOUR SPOUSE.

He does NOT hold you accountable for your spouses actions toward you and the marriage-the fault laid with your HUSBAND and not YOU. And if your husband goes on and marries OW, you are released, totally-the Lord will NOT hold it against YOU-this was beyond your control.

BUT--whatever you are supposed to learn from this-will have to be learned BEFORE you are released from your marriage vows. I believe you are already released from those due to adultery on your husband's part, but there are additional lessons you must learn, and He is leading you into them-things you are afraid of, learning NOT to play it so safe-for you must LEARN to step out in FAITH and bring him to accountability-and you must NOT back down. You are charged to stand strong and He will be with you and use you to speak.


NONE of our paths are the SAME-each one of us takes a different path in our lives, to learn DIFFERENT things that pertain to ONLY US as individuals. And the Lord leads, guides, and directs as HE sees fit. But we must be ready AND willing to submit to HIS will, not ours.


Concerning the subject of temptation, Satan can and will throw temptation at you in ANY form and if he can't attack you directly, he WILL do it INDIRECTLY. And since one of his strong point is patience, he will keep attempting to wear you down UNTIL you fall. And he LOVES to see servants of the Lord fall down.

HOLD ON, S&A, the LORD can and will meet your deepest needs-that is but ONE of the reasons you must go through this total rejection from your husband--it is so you will turn to the LORD, and cast everything upon HIM, realizing that HE is the only one who can MEET your deepest needs.

It also rips open "old" emotional wounds, and makes you face those so you can ask for help to heal them, making you stronger as you go.

Yes, the Lord DOES use these type situations for this purpose. But you have to open your eyes and see this.

And keep the devil at bay-he has nothing for you but misery and destruction--you just CAN'T fall, S&A, you have come TOO far to even open your mind to this type of possibility.

Opening your mind to the POSSIBILITY of sin is the FIRST step to falling into it-read the story of David and Bathsheba.

We are to bring every idle thought into captivity and keep our minds on the Lord always. That way, there is NO room for Satan to work.

The battle is intense, but it can be won through holding onto the Lord and continuing to be obedient in ALL things.


This concerns Temptation during Total Rejection


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However, I would caution you (and everyone else) to beware of trying to get our needs filled through another man. We are at a very vulnerable place right now and in my opinion we could all be affairs waiting to happen. Be wise in your relationships with men. As an example, I am friends with a married couple and they both equally want to help me. However, I've set up boundaries with the man such as never meeting alone and never talking on the phone with him unless his wife is on the extension. I don't have any sort of "designs" on him by any means, but I do believe I would be stupid to think that nothing could ever happen. We mustn't let Satan get a foothold.
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I have preached about this SAME thing before about the DANGEROUS position the WAS places the LBS in while they are out trying to find themselves and have gotten OW.

I REMEMBER that one pretty clearly. And, like you, ICBI, I recognized the dangers of accidentally getting involved with another man-I isolated myself from ALL men except my brother-in-law(I trust and still trust him), and the only people I associated with were women during that time.

I did it to protect THEM AND ME. The abandoned and unloved feelings were pretty bad for me-worse feelings I had ever felt in my life-I mean it was like totally being cut-off from feeling loved-and I had NO ONE except the Lord-and me.

I did make it through and the feelings DID pass, but it was several MORE weeks before I would trust myself to associate with the men I knew at work again-and I never told them what I was doing, I just distanced myself from them, and wouldn't even talk to them-thank goodness they never paid that much attention to what I was doing. LOL

I asked the Lord to keep helping me through, and He did, but I had to face this temptation and overcome it.

It would have been so easy to have gotten involved with another-and I could see that ahead of time as this started.

So she's right, you MUST be careful--you would betray YOURSELF-and both of you would have matching guilt and things might get worse instead of better.

On the other hand, most importantly-it is considered ADULTERY; hands down if you get involved with another while still married, regardless if sex was involved or not. And that is what I think.

Gotta watch Satan closely during this time-he will throw temptation down in front of you in a hurry, because he would like nothing better than to see you fall down hard.


It was also shown to me a long time later that I delved MUCH deeper into myself during this time, as my journey to find me was beginning, and the vast majority of what I looked at, of course had to do with ME. Everything I needed to look at and work through was brought up during that same time, and I don't think I'd have seen it that clearly if I hadn't gone through what I did.

What my husband did in depriving me, felt like a "repeat" of my emotionally deprived childhood-and old wounds were ripped open then-but they were healed later on--I'm not sure when that happened-but I do know it was later, sometime during my journey.

The changes I made had alot to do with those old wounds, and that was shown to me later on, too.

All things happen for reason, always.

First of all, S&A, you have answered your OWN question, so, really you KNOW the answer and it lies deep within your OWN heart.

You recognize that you are NOT finished with your journey in this pit you have been in for two years. And until you ARE finished, you will still be in there.

I've said this before, but I was commanded to CHOOSE before the worst parts of this came about-BEFORE I even KNEW about the affair-and I was told the outcomes either way. I had just a couple of days before discovered his access of pornography, and was understandably angry-but went before the Lord to see what I should do-so I wouldn't do anything foolish.

You see the devil had put in a bid for my family-with me being the STRONGER-I had to be convinced to bow out(Satan had used my husband against me because he was unable to bring me down directly), first-then the rest would follow, and these were things I was shown AFTER I chose my path-and in my mind there was NO going back.

I could have gone either way-the Lord does NOT tamper with Free Will-He already KNEW what I would do, but He STILL had to give me that choice-and my love being what it was I chose my marriage knowing He would work things out.

And it went from there to here-the path was FULL of obstacles and decisions to make to get where I am now. I was not ever allowed to just sit and wait-there were instructions I had to follow-just as you are having to do now-and things I was guided into that brought about positive results.

The Lord WAS with me during the time of total rejection, and strengthened me-because I ASKED Him to. I knew, like you do, if I did anything like my husband had done, I would betray ME-and I was still married, faithful to my vows, and I still LOVED him.

Besides the Lord kept counseling me, showing me that my husband did STILL love me, but was so confused and his feelings were buried deep within himself.

The MOST important thing shown to me of all was, that if I changed my mind, left my husband and married another-which was MY right to do, I would repeat this whole process ALL over again-and with the Lord promising me that my marriage would come back together, and things would be better-I would have been STUPID to have strayed from the course I had decided on.

The devil, on the other hand, continued to try and try and get me to bow out and leave, but I never would-and so that made my trial much harder.

I have seen ALL things the Lord has told me ahead of time come to pass except one-and it's upon me-and I cannot tell what it is-because of Satan--but I will tell all when it happens, because it signifies the END of everything.

I have been holding onto the promise of the Lord concerning the END for over a year-and I look back, seeing how far I have come from where I was.

He charged me to obey Him in ALL things, just like I had always done before, and I didn't miss--I knew I couldn't-whatever I was told, I did, even if I was uncertain deep within my heart, because logically, it didn't look like it would work out--but it did. He knew MORE than I did, and STILL knows more than I do.

I have seen my faith and belief in Him increase greatly over this last year, and I do NOT doubt Him in any way-although the devil has tried hard to shake my faith and place doubts in my mind many times-all I ever knew to do was HOLD ON and just keep going.

Yes, there were times of anger and frustration and impatience on my part, but those feelings were carefully hid and controlled, because to let them out gave the devil a place and power over me-and I could NOT allow that to happen.

Most of all, I was shown that I was the "key" to restoring my husband to fellowship with the Lord. That is all I can say about that, but a great deal rested on ME to help him come through his MLC.

As close as you are to the Lord, S&A you KNOW His voice-it is unmistakable-and as long as you listen to Him, you will NEVER go wrong.

You have always appeared to be extremely discerning when it came to what you believe. Listen within yourself NOW, and hear His voice speak within you-for His sheep KNOW His voice, and you are NO different.


You WILL know if/when the time comes to give up and go on with your life-He will let you know. But, at the same time, HE will tell you that it is YOUR decision, and will give you the consequences of your actions either way-as it concerns YOU AND YOUR SPOUSE.

He does NOT hold you accountable for your spouses actions toward you and the marriage-the fault laid with your HUSBAND and not YOU. And if your husband goes on and marries OW, you are released, totally-the Lord will NOT hold it against YOU-this was beyond your control.

BUT--whatever you are supposed to learn from this-will have to be learned BEFORE you are released from your marriage vows. I believe you are already released from those due to adultery on your husband's part, but there are additional lessons you must learn, and He is leading you into them-things you are afraid of, learning NOT to play it so safe-for you must LEARN to step out in FAITH and bring him to accountability-and you must NOT back down. You are charged to stand strong and He will be with you and use you to speak.


NONE of our paths are the SAME-each one of us takes a different path in our lives, to learn DIFFERENT things that pertain to ONLY US as individuals. And the Lord leads, guides, and directs as HE sees fit. But we must be ready AND willing to submit to HIS will, not ours.


Concerning the subject of temptation, Satan can and will throw temptation at you in ANY form and if he can't attack you directly, he WILL do it INDIRECTLY. And since one of his strong point is patience, he will keep attempting to wear you down UNTIL you fall. And he LOVES to see servants of the Lord fall down.

HOLD ON, S&A, the LORD can and will meet your deepest needs-that is but ONE of the reasons you must go through this total rejection from your husband--it is so you will turn to the LORD, and cast everything upon HIM, realizing that HE is the only one who can MEET your deepest needs.

It also rips open "old" emotional wounds, and makes you face those so you can ask for help to heal them, making you stronger as you go.

Yes, the Lord DOES use these type situations for this purpose. But you have to open your eyes and see this.

And keep the devil at bay-he has nothing for you but misery and destruction--you just CAN'T fall, S&A, you have come TOO far to even open your mind to this type of possibility.

Opening your mind to the POSSIBILITY of sin is the FIRST step to falling into it-read the story of David and Bathsheba.

We are to bring every idle thought into captivity and keep our minds on the Lord always. That way, there is NO room for Satan to work.

The battle is intense, but it can be won through holding onto the Lord and continuing to be obedient in ALL things.



b]This concerns placing blame and anger totally on OW, instead of directing it toward the SOURCE-the WAS[/b]

This sermon caused some controversy on the thread it was posted on-but it was necessary-I didn't want to offend anyone, and still don't-it was part of the lessons I learned-and anyone can still learn from this-don't get "stuck" in misdirected anger, learn to face the actual SOURCE that started this whole mess: the WAS



Now, one other thing, and this is based on many posts I have seen:

Why do you ladies place ALL the blame, and direct your anger at OW? I'm just curious about that-or maybe that is something you have to learn about--at first, I was angry at just the OW, but then the Lord made me realize the fault laid with MY HUSBAND-HE was the one who started this, not her.

She carried some of the blame once she found out he was married and wouldn't let him go-I don't believe she KNEW until he was ready to break it off-I believe he set her up to reject him and it backfired on him!

But you see, the total BLAME for the whole situation getting started laid on HIM-and so HE needed to be the target for my anger, NOT HER. Sure, she might have known or not known, he was married, and still tried to hang on, but you have got to see where IT ALL STARTED FROM-THE SOURCE WAS THE WAYWARD SPOUSE! That's who started this whole mess.

And the brunt of your anger needs to be directed toward HIM-see what I'm trying to tell you?

The WHOLE fault for starting this lays with the wayward spouse-and you must face that--just like I had to. Your husbands CHOSE this path, and when you direct ALL the blame on OW, and put NONE on him-you are defeating the purpose and living in denial-reality MUST be seen for what it is-they have committed the MOST selfish act there can be:
breaking their marriage vows and putting the marriage asunder in the losing of their committment. And you have EVERY right to be ANGRY at your MLC spouse!

Work through your feelings, reach forgiveness for your husband and OW-then let it go, as you can't change the past-you must now look to the future, that is one thing you CAN change.

Don't allow this to wield power over you-you've got enough on your plate as it is.


More on understanding OW and MLC'er-and what they think they need from each other

This is a partial quote of mine from another thread-it might help to answer your question:


Quote:
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But when all was said and done, I DID overcome-and see OW in a different light than I did before-and without hate and resentment in my heart toward her--she is to be pitied rather than hated, because her problems are much bigger than ours will ever be.

We are learning what we need for this life, while OW stumbles along in the dark, never understanding why she cannot be happy with what she is doing with married men-using them for MONEY and MAINTENANCE.

You still think this is all about sex? Think again-sex, most of the time has NOTHING to do with it-it is only used as a "weapon" a last resort to try and keep the man--mostly what the OW is after is the MONEY she can get from a man-and if that is the ONLY thing she gets she can be happy with that-she only uses her sexuality to try and keep them, and most of the time she will get dumped like a rock, always being left behind.

I'm not saying they are ALL not interested in sex, but think about it--it is true that some will be happy with just getting MONEY from the married men-as they are concerned with THEMSELVES, and not the man-and the bad part is that when the OW is finished USING the man-she will dump him and walk away without a second look-as he has served his purpose with her-she has found something she considers "better".

The description above is the OW's idea of "True Luv"-they have NO idea what love really entails-and so they equate it with "using".
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I recall posting one time that "neurotics attract neurotics" and that is VERY true in MLC-OW has problems, the MLC'er has problems and for a time, they meet needs within each other.

OW is not looking for anything EXCEPT what SHE percieves SHE needs-and the MLC'er is doing the same thing with her.

Most of the time NEITHER one is aware they are "using" each other-until the affair begins to dissolve.

I understand, too, that is NOT always this cut and dried and black and white, but it IS an underlying reason OW takes up with men that look less than desirable-they are not so much concerned with that as they are with MONEY and MAINTENANCE.

One of the first things OW tries to find out is how much money they have and have no shame about begging them out of it, because she perceives that as "being kept", and ultimately that is what she is after.

She has NO interest in really pursuing a committed relationship, she is just as selfish as the MLC'er has become while deep within the tunnel.

When the affair dissolves, she is outraged because her "meal ticket" has just gone out the window, and she engages in "pursuing behaviors" mostly for that reason.

And, of course the she refuses to take her half of the blame-ALL the blame goes on the married man who up and left her--high and dry--she is ANGRY because he is no longer there to "keep her" in the lifestyle she is accustomed to.
b]This concerns placing blame and anger totally on OW, instead of directing it toward the SOURCE-the WAS[/b]

This sermon caused some controversy on the thread it was posted on-but it was necessary-I didn't want to offend anyone, and still don't-it was part of the lessons I learned-and anyone can still learn from this-don't get "stuck" in misdirected anger, learn to face the actual SOURCE that started this whole mess: the WAS



Now, one other thing, and this is based on many posts I have seen:

Why do you ladies place ALL the blame, and direct your anger at OW? I'm just curious about that-or maybe that is something you have to learn about--at first, I was angry at just the OW, but then the Lord made me realize the fault laid with MY HUSBAND-HE was the one who started this, not her.

She carried some of the blame once she found out he was married and wouldn't let him go-I don't believe she KNEW until he was ready to break it off-I believe he set her up to reject him and it backfired on him!

But you see, the total BLAME for the whole situation getting started laid on HIM-and so HE needed to be the target for my anger, NOT HER. Sure, she might have known or not known, he was married, and still tried to hang on, but you have got to see where IT ALL STARTED FROM-THE SOURCE WAS THE WAYWARD SPOUSE! That's who started this whole mess.

And the brunt of your anger needs to be directed toward HIM-see what I'm trying to tell you?

The WHOLE fault for starting this lays with the wayward spouse-and you must face that--just like I had to. Your husbands CHOSE this path, and when you direct ALL the blame on OW, and put NONE on him-you are defeating the purpose and living in denial-reality MUST be seen for what it is-they have committed the MOST selfish act there can be:
breaking their marriage vows and putting the marriage asunder in the losing of their committment. And you have EVERY right to be ANGRY at your MLC spouse!

Work through your feelings, reach forgiveness for your husband and OW-then let it go, as you can't change the past-you must now look to the future, that is one thing you CAN change.

Don't allow this to wield power over you-you've got enough on your plate as it is.


More on understanding OW and MLC'er-and what they think they need from each other

This is a partial quote of mine from another thread-it might help to answer your question:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But when all was said and done, I DID overcome-and see OW in a different light than I did before-and without hate and resentment in my heart toward her--she is to be pitied rather than hated, because her problems are much bigger than ours will ever be.

We are learning what we need for this life, while OW stumbles along in the dark, never understanding why she cannot be happy with what she is doing with married men-using them for MONEY and MAINTENANCE.

You still think this is all about sex? Think again-sex, most of the time has NOTHING to do with it-it is only used as a "weapon" a last resort to try and keep the man--mostly what the OW is after is the MONEY she can get from a man-and if that is the ONLY thing she gets she can be happy with that-she only uses her sexuality to try and keep them, and most of the time she will get dumped like a rock, always being left behind.

I'm not saying they are ALL not interested in sex, but think about it--it is true that some will be happy with just getting MONEY from the married men-as they are concerned with THEMSELVES, and not the man-and the bad part is that when the OW is finished USING the man-she will dump him and walk away without a second look-as he has served his purpose with her-she has found something she considers "better".

The description above is the OW's idea of "True Luv"-they have NO idea what love really entails-and so they equate it with "using".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I recall posting one time that "neurotics attract neurotics" and that is VERY true in MLC-OW has problems, the MLC'er has problems and for a time, they meet needs within each other.

OW is not looking for anything EXCEPT what SHE percieves SHE needs-and the MLC'er is doing the same thing with her.

Most of the time NEITHER one is aware they are "using" each other-until the affair begins to dissolve.

I understand, too, that is NOT always this cut and dried and black and white, but it IS an underlying reason OW takes up with men that look less than desirable-they are not so much concerned with that as they are with MONEY and MAINTENANCE.

One of the first things OW tries to find out is how much money they have and have no shame about begging them out of it, because she perceives that as "being kept", and ultimately that is what she is after.

She has NO interest in really pursuing a committed relationship, she is just as selfish as the MLC'er has become while deep within the tunnel.

When the affair dissolves, she is outraged because her "meal ticket" has just gone out the window, and she engages in "pursuing behaviors" mostly for that reason.

And, of course the she refuses to take her half of the blame-ALL the blame goes on the married man who up and left her--high and dry--she is ANGRY because he is no longer there to "keep her" in the lifestyle she is accustomed to.

I am convinced this is NOT all about sex-it is about selfishness, using and obsession. On both parts.

Yes, the affair meets some needs, but disregards others-and the "caring, love and intimacy" that helps a relationship get off the ground and grow is NOT there.

Theirs is mostly built on deception, and "what's in it for me?" routine, and both don't care who they hurt.


This was the answer S&A provided to my question-and I brought it here for additional help in "letting go" of the resentment and ill-will that is sometimes transferred to the OW alone:



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Why do you ladies place ALL the blame, and direct your anger at OW?
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I have done much thinking on this for two years as the Gnat has been so central to my story, though as you say...just a symptom.

The main reason is because it is easier to hate her than our H. We are emotionally attached to H and arent to the OW so it costs us less pain to focus our hate on her (for whom we do not care) than on our H who have done a heinous thing to us. Our H's betrayal is very personal as he was the one who promised to love, honor, cherish us and forsake all others. He knew our heart and did it anyway. AHHHHHH

This is hard to bear.

Secondly, though I realize this is sexist, I think the media at least has portrayed men as being highly controlled by their sex hormones and on some level they cant help it (lame I know...they can help it...) Somehow I think we tend to think the OW should know better and it is an offense to treat a female sister like this.
I am convinced this is NOT all about sex-it is about selfishness, using and obsession. On both parts.

Yes, the affair meets some needs, but disregards others-and the "caring, love and intimacy" that helps a relationship get off the ground and grow is NOT there.

Theirs is mostly built on deception, and "what's in it for me?" routine, and both don't care who they hurt.


This was the answer S&A provided to my question-and I brought it here for additional help in "letting go" of the resentment and ill-will that is sometimes transferred to the OW alone:



Quote:
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Why do you ladies place ALL the blame, and direct your anger at OW?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have done much thinking on this for two years as the Gnat has been so central to my story, though as you say...just a symptom.

The main reason is because it is easier to hate her than our H. We are emotionally attached to H and arent to the OW so it costs us less pain to focus our hate on her (for whom we do not care) than on our H who have done a heinous thing to us. Our H's betrayal is very personal as he was the one who promised to love, honor, cherish us and forsake all others. He knew our heart and did it anyway. AHHHHHH

This is hard to bear.

Secondly, though I realize this is sexist, I think the media at least has portrayed men as being highly controlled by their sex hormones and on some level they cant help it (lame I know...they can help it...) Somehow I think we tend to think the OW should know better and it is an offense to treat a female sister like this.





This is concerning CYCLES

A "cycle" starts when the same behavior is repeated over and over for a period of time and there is NO end to it-it "circles" in other words. And the person repeating the "cycle" must have help to break free from it.

Something HAS to give when a cycle starts, someone's behavior has to change or a confrontation has to ensue.

For example:

Say a man has OW, but wants his wife too seeing them both because he is too weak to decide what he wants. The wife states her stand on it, and he promises to get rid of OW. But he ignores what she says and lies to her so he can keep right on seeing OW AND his wife, too-"fence-sitting" is a better word for that or "cake-eating".

After giving the man a reasonable period of time-usually a week, the wife then needs to change her behavior toward the man, "cutting him off", "going dark" AFTER telling him ONE MORE TIME where she stands.

In effect, the change of behavior SHOULD break the "cycle".

When it doesn't break, something is wrong-the wife MUST stick to her guns and NOT allow him to see her at all-"cycles" are difficult to break when the wife lacks the strength to enforce her stand. IF he moves on, she has lost nothing, but allowing for human nature, most of the time, the man will go on and dump the OW, coming back to the wife, knowing she means business, and won't allow him to get away with this.

You see, people will do what we allow them to get away with, and when the SAME problem crops up AGAIN and AGAIN, it begins what is called a "cycle" and a change in behavior is called for to break it. And that change MUST be solid, no waffling-self-respect is at usually at stake.

In MLC, there are certain times when this will work, and you must know when those times are.

I've seen several cases here of "cycles" and some them continue on and on, because the LBS lacks the strength to make a stand, afraid of being willing to lose all to possibly regain the MLC'er.

As long as the MLC'er is waffling between the wife and OW, it is a good time to break a cycle.

It might try the patience of the LBS, but in the end, unless the MLC'er goes nuts and chooses OW, it should work.


There are other "cycles" to look at, in the cases of disrespect-controlling and manipulation can be stopped.

It calls, again, for a change in behavior-reacting in a way that the MLC'er does NOT expect, and refusing to take anymore.

My husband used to control me with anger and threats when I confronted him, and he used to say things that would "shut me up". If he didn't want to discuss something he used to say hurtful things to me, so I would withdraw and say nothing else to him. And this cycle was going on while he was in his MLC-I stopped that cycle by changing my behavior and reactions to his hateful statements-the next thing he did was threaten to leave, and I, instead of crying and begging like I did before, just cut him loose, and invited him to leave if that was what HE wanted to do.

He's never repeated that behavior again, and that was the only "cycle" I got stuck in.

The bottom line is, you have to overcome your FEAR, and make a stand against what you know is WRONG, not worrying about what might happen, just knowing your self-respect is at stake, and being strong enough to stand.

If he really wants to leave..etc, he will do what HE wants to do, and there's NOTHING you can do about it. But you cannot become a "doormat" for him to walk on. You must be resolute and strong without becoming soft. And you don't have to put up with wrong behavior. It CAN be stopped, point-blank.



This is a Q and A from LSL, asking me to further define what must be done during a cycle

This does MORE explaining and helps to further your understanding.

LSL,

Now, you are making MY brain hurt! LOL!

Just kidding.


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HOW DOES ONE DETERMINE THE CHANGE NEEDED. IS IT BOUNDARIES, 180'S, SOME COMBINATION?
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When you commit to a course of action-the "consequences" of that action no longer matter-you are letting go of that.
Making your stand is NOT considered 'punishment'-that is up to the Lord to "punish" people by causing them to reap what they sow.

You are simply deciding what you will and won't tolerate and taking steps to CHANGE that situation, through actions and/or confrontation. It is the equivalent of saying "NO MORE" and not backing down.

The actions you take depend upon the situation faced-I outlined two different examples of making such a stand in my last post.

Most situations are NOT so different, LSL, and the "bully's" reactions are usually NOT that different, unless he/she is totally twisted, and/or at the "point of no return"-or is determined to leave forever, anyway. OR, even, they IGNORE the LBS actions, and just continue their unacceptable behavior-in THAT case-you either ACCEPT it or NOT-your choice all the way around. There are some "die-hards" that will NEVER see what they are doing to hurt themselves and others-and of course that is covered in psychiatric disorders. They are beyond help-and you cannot help them, and MUST just let them go totally-getting on with your life.

What behavior you are standing up against determines the changes that have to be made in the LBS-this is "solution-based" thinking-it DEPENDS on what you are facing, LSL as to what you need to do. IF one thing doesn't work, try something else-each person is different and it might require a combination of things to bring about a desired result. No one can decide that for you-it is always YOUR choice-and you know your husband better than anyone else.


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IS THE ONLY "SOLID" OPTION IN A OW-CYCLE AN ULTIMATUM -
or ARE THERE OTHER OPTIONS LBS HAS TO PREVENT WAS/'caker' "FROM GETTING AWAY WITH"(NO CONSEQUENCES) THIS BEHAVIOR ?
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There are several possibilities the LBS can use, and the only three options are:

1. Ultimatum, which in the case of MLC won't work unless the MLC'er is READY to give OW up, and is attempting to CAKE-EAT.

2. Going dark without saying a word, but the WAS won't "get it" so a confrontation IN THE CASE OF OW is usually necessary BEFORE going dark.

3. Just tolerating the situation, and going on endlessly for years, allowing the cycle to continue-had to throw that one in-it is the LEAST desireable option, but one that is usually chosen because fear dictates the actions of the LBS.

I, quite honestly, don't see any OTHER ways of handling this type of situation WITHOUT a confrontation of some sort-the LBS has to come to the point of deciding what he/she will and won't tolerate and take action-and that course of action is UP to the individual who is on the receiving end of this.


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WILL ONE KNOW WHEN THIS WILL WORK
- IS THERE ANY INDICATION AS WHAT THOSE TIMES ARE?
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I had my insight and someone to guide me in this, LSL-but your own intuition is your BEST indicator--use the tools you have been given through DB, self-help books, the Bible, and this messageboard to help you-that is what they are here for-for one thing.

On the other hand, watching the situation is one of the BEST indicators as to when the BEST time is to confront-I can't exactly explain it, but YOU WILL KNOW-it goes back to your intuition-and the "cycle" that develops will become so clear even the person involved within CAN'T miss it unless they are totally BLIND, or choose to be. Depends on, again, what each of us are willing to live with and tolerate. If you're not satisfied with a situation, CHANGE it, taking the steps necessary to do so.

Again, when you take a course of action, you LET GO of what the consequences may be(spouse goes on and leaves, etc). But understand we are human and there is so much even WE will tolerate before something must be done, and each of our tolerance levels are different-what is totally UNacceptable to one person may be totally Acceptable to another-each one of us are different-those differences must be taken into account.

In short, we each KNOW, deep within our hearts what we can and can't live with.


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DOES THE "STAND" MEAN ASKING SPOUSE TO LEAVE?
OR DOES IT MEAN DIFFERENT THINGS (ex.BOUNDARIES) FOR DIFFERENT CYCLES?
DOES IT MEAN WAS LEAVE IN CASE OF OW?
DOES THE STAND DEMAND A CHOICE ON THE WAS,
WHERE THE LBS HAS TO FOLLOW THROUGH WITH CHOICE RESULTS/CONSEQUENCES?
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That is totally up to the LBS-different circumstances call for different courses of actions-again it DEPENDS on the circumstances-and when you KNOW the options you have, you can make a choice that "fits" within those options.


In MLC, there DOES come a time when you will have to "be willing to lose all to possibly regain him" and the circumstances ARE differing.

In my own case-and I know I've told this story before-I was attempting to hold my husband accountable for OW, plus his behavior, and I triggered a tantrum in him--now, in the past he'd always controlled me through anger and threats, and that had always worked then, but not at the time I confronted him.

He threatened to leave me because in his words "You won't shut up", and I released him-telling him if that was what he wanted to do, do it, but don't threaten me with it again-and I never raised my voice-I had learned TWO lessons that day-the first was to stay quiet in conflict, and the second was the "being willing to lose all to possibly regain him" lesson.

He threatened me with other stuff(no physical violence, though--that line had been drawn YEARS before) and I just kept putting the decision to leave or not to leave BACK on his shoulders and was calm about it.

He never left.

He has NOT repeated this particular behavior again-and at one time it WAS a bone of contention between us-I had ALLOWED it for many years, but no more-I had made my stand, and he responded to that stand by STOPPING the behavior-I didn't give him the SAME reaction I had given over the years-I had changed the tapes.

Now, remember the decision I made at that time was NOT made ahead of time-it was made in a split-second, because the tantrum and threats were made UNEXPECTEDLY-I did NOT know what he was going to do until he did it.

But, you see, I was guided into holding him accountable, and I was "pushed" until I did it-the Lord would NOT allow me to back down, as the "old" me would have done before-I could NOT revert back to "old" behaviors-it was placed within me to confront and I did-but you see, WHEN I did I "let go" of the consequences of my actions-leaving them to the LORD to work out.

If he HAD left, there was NOTHING I could have done to stop it-and I knew that, too, even BEFORE I confronted-but I had to be READY to accept whatever the result would be-it was up to my husband whether he stayed or went, not me.

All these things passed through my mind that day, but I settled myself afterwards, knowing I had done all I could, but I wasn't willing to let him manipulate me anymore-I wasn't a child, and neither was he-and he DID respect me a great deal more after that.


Now, concerning making him leave in the case of OW DOES have its advantages-it causes him to "miss" the LBS, and OW has the burden of meeting ALL his needs, not just some of them-and she doesn't know him the way the LBS does, and so he becomes dissatisfied with the affair and it burns out--UNLESS he is determined to start over anyway-again that is BEYOND the LBS' control--everything comes down to being willing to LET GO of controlling ANYTHING concerning another person-because really, we don't OWN anyone except OURSELVES, and all things happen for a reason.

The STAND CAN mean going through with what the LBS has said he/she will do if certain conditions are not met, and that is NOT control-the WAS has broken their marriage vows, and the LBS has the right to demand a choice, but in MLC, that can happen only when the MLC'er is CAKE-EATING.

Do NOT make your stand UNTIL you are READY to live with the consequences of what you are saying you will do-that is WHY I say you CANNOT waffle-you must stand strong and be willing to go through it.

Otherwise, the cycle will definitely repeat itself, and the time will be lengthened to ensure you learn the lesson and "get it" right.

One more thing, even if the WAS REFUSES to leave-you can STILL make your stand and go at least "dim" on them-refusing to have much of ANYTHING to do with him/her-and sticking to it, getting on with your life.

Though I talked my husband out of leaving when I found out about OW, and he treated me terribly, I ended up going totally "dim" on him, and that sent him the message that he could LOSE me-I was calm, quiet, but firm that this had better stop-but I never threatened him or said anything that indicated I was going to leave-I just had very little to do with him for awhile-and he got the message, loud and clear.

But, deep down, I hurt so badly that it was unreal-but that did pass, in time, and I felt I was doing the right thing, and knew it for sure when I observed him coming back toward me later on.


Whew, Lord, I hope I have explained this in a way that will help you ALL to understand how this works--I KNOW how it works having been there before, but explaining it in a way that is understood is hard, but I think I got it right.

[Cadet]

This concerns FORGIVENESS

I forgave OW-without speaking to her at all-I had my instructions-and I knew I could forgive her without seeing her-and I did that.

I also forgave my husband long before he asked me for forgiveness for ANYTHING he did.


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I actually feel I am ready to forgive - as a generality: tho suspect [as in my autumn leaves analogy], forgiveness-to-the-point-of-no-anger-anywhere may be a long time coming. But maybe it isnt true forgiveness so long as there is any drop of anger left?
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The FEELINGS, however DO still have to be worked through-I remember being puzzled when I made up my mind to forgive, but yet I still felt angry, betrayed, hurt--etc.

I drew on somone else's wisdom to help me-because I was taught that when you forgave someone-the feelings automatically went away, and they weren't doing that.

I STILL had to work through my feelings-when I forgave, I just committed not to bring it up-released the offending party to the LORD to handle, because HE will make sure they "reap what they have sown".

You see, although they might ask the LORD for forgiveness, and He DOES forgive when they ask, the NATURAL consequences of the actions are not stopped-they STILL have to experience "reaping what they have sown." Because, whatever a person does, good or bad-it ALWAYS comes back-and not always in the same form it has gone out-most of the time it is worse.

I have observed my husband reap hard what he has sown-and that has actually lasted all this time, plus the fact he has had to LIVE with what he has done to our marriage--I, on the other hand, have not. Yes, everything he did affected me, but I didn't do what he has done, and don't have to live with the betrayal of self and marriage vows.

I learned to separate the behavior from the person-having never learned that before in my life.

No, I don't and won't ever feel that I did anything so bad I DESERVED this-what I had to look at and eventually reality hit me from both sides during my journey-was the fact that I had turned a "blind" eye to most things in our marriage, and he took advantage of that--I had MORE invested than he did, when the balance should have been more equal.

I remember my husband saying that I had "always done what I was supposed to do." And post-journey-I realized this to be true. Wasn't a bad thing, though-he never really had to worry about me-and that was PART of the problem-he'd started taking me for granted, and when I found out about OW, for the first time in 15 years, he experienced FEAR-because NOW he had crossed the line that should NEVER have been crossed-and he had to face that he might actually LOSE ME.

Everything he had ever done to me in that 15 years flashed before his eyes-I remember him speaking of it and apologizing over and over. But those things had been forgiven a long time ago and weren't worth re-hashing--this I knew, but I listened anyway.



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Most people probably won't have the insight & guidance you have had, HB, when speaking directly with your H about this. For myself, I know if I had let all my blame & anger show at the beginning when it was very raw, there would be no way back. This is why it is so important to me, to make the decision to never throw destructive emotion at either of them.
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You couldn't anyway, it wouldn't change a thing-your husband HAS to know how you felt about what he did, and that is different from "throwing destructive emotion".

It is very, very hard to separate the actions from the person-OW had NOTHING to do with you, but yet you were extremely hurt, and that is understandable. You can think all you want to, but it is what you DO that will impact the situation. And the words spoken must be chosen carefully, because two things in this life cannot be taken back:

A moment in Time
A spoken word


I forget who told me that, but it is true-and I know, during this, there have been many times I have had to bite my tongue, and if I HAD to speak, my words were chosen carefully-because to lose control, totally, could mean the end-and I would have brought that upon myself.

The Lord protected me while I was ignorant, but when my eyes were opened, it fell to ME to be careful-that's why I gave ALL control to Him-but it still took me time to be able to do that. And He has continued to direct my steps since then. And will always do so for the rest of my life.

I have been extremely fortunate that He sent me help-no, make that BLESSED. He sent me help because I was obedient to Him in all things. People often think that serving the Lord is "boring" "no fun" and we are uptight, judgemental people. That thinking comes from dealing with people that have CHOSEN to be that way.

As I have grown in my walk, I have realized that the Lord DOES have a sense of humor-I have experienced it as I've grown closer to Him-and he doesn't want us to walk in condemnation of ourselves-that does NOT mean we can "sit on the fence" and serve both Him and the Devil.

It simply means we are to do the best we can to walk in His light, serving Him to the best of our ability, making an effort to stay out of sin-we know right from wrong-being willing to give ALL control to Him, so He can help us.

In short, we must develop a relationship with the Lord, not just pay lip-service, and do good works. We must have faith, and belief in Him, and be willing to follow in His steps.

It has been said, and the bible says this, that the Lord's people are a "peculiar" people, and I find that to be true. I am a humble person, taught to love and help others, and my ACTIONS speak louder than anything I could ever say, and somehow, people actually DO see Him in me.
There is something different about me, and it has been remarked upon before-but I didn't understand what they were talking about until my own understanding came about.

And I have seen this same thing in other people.

I, myself, have continued to be obedient to Him in all ways, all things, and I don't find it "boring" at all.

He has brought me through SO much, and brought me to the level where I now currently stand.

Jesus never said we would have it easy down here, but He DID say HE would be WITH us during our trials, and He would never leave us. He will help, but we must ask-if we ask not, we have not.

I would not have made it through, if the Lord hadn't been with me this whole time.

I think I got carried away. But the Lord is SO good to me.





This is concerning Acceptance

My husband started into Acceptance back in March-breaking the stage of Withdrawal. I was told very little, but he did confirm that his MLC started in October of 1999.

After I forgave him, he did NOT want to discuss it anymore, and left me very hurt and confused. I managed to get through the hurt and confusion and kept going.

I would figure most men or women going into the Acceptance, stage, will go into it in "steps". At least my husband did.

From a spiritual point of view, it was a battle he had to fight on his own-I could only stand by and watch him.

He made a final split-similar to the one I had seen 6 months before on his exit from the tunnel with the same-aged "children" (a 4 year old and a 15 year old)I had seen then.

Sometimes, he'd start his day as the "4 year old" and end it as the "15 year old"-my son was seeing the SAME personas I saw.

Even though he was into Acceptance, he STILL put me through a great deal of stuff-and there were things he had to work out on his own. The temptation was placed before him to return to things as they once were when he was in "Replay", and thank God he didn't return. I was there when things were placed before him, but I had my instructions not to interfere and keep my mouth shut no matter what I saw and heard-this went on for eight days, and I witnessed alot of things during that time, in "speed-dial" fashion.

Things began to go much better after that eight-day period, but I was still puzzled from time to time-as he STILL went back and forth briefly through differing stages in the coming weeks--except "Denial" and "Replay".

In describing how this stage works, it is like "shutting" or "closing" doors after brief revisits with each stage except "Denial" with no going backwards into what was going on before-the temptation is simply there, but not taken. And, like the other stages it is slow-going, and severely tries the patience of the sane spouse that is trying to keep things leveled out.

And ONCE each stage is "revisited" and the door is closed-they can NEVER return to what once was.

I saw mine emerge totally from MLC itself around two weeks ago, but am still observing changes as they keep occurring.

Some of his "old" personality is there, and I feel "awake" in a way I never was before, but there is some new changes there, too.

Sometimes, my frustration is evident, and I want things I know I cannot have, as I know I cannot change him, but I'm attempting to accept the things I cannot change, knowing I must keep going on, being here if he needs me.

I also realize this has changed ME in a way I haven't ever been before-and my old wounds have healed, and I won't ever go back to what I was once before.

Only time will tell how it goes now. I'm still being guided by the Lord in how to deal with new developments as they arise.

Now, whether he comes and speaks to me of this a final time, I won't know unless the time comes-but the rules in this game are still the same: the answers will come from HIM and not ME-and as willing as I am to help him, he must help himself, regardless if I'm allowed to help or not.

But I know, deep within my heart, I cannot help him if he doesn't allow me to.

Take care.

I do know he's NOT exactly the same person I once knew---that much is evident. But there is enough of the old for him to be very familiar to me. And I must adjust once again for a final time.

More Q & A's from LSL concerning Acceptance

LSL,

Look backward in this thread most of these questions have already been answered-look at page 3 and 4-I describe Acceptance in those posts.

I will answer these questions in short-form:


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When an MLCer enters ACCEPTANCE is he/she completely freed from all the other stages?
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Yes. Once they enter the final stage of Acceptance-the "doors" are closed, forever, and they can NEVER return to what was.


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Are all those other connections severed so that it is a clean break and then the Acceptance begins?
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Acceptance is entered in stages, LSL, as I have explained elsewhere on this thread-severing those connections forever is but a part of this. But, yes, once there is a clean break-the final stage of Acceptance is entered-and there is NO going back to what once was.
The changes that are demanded from a MLC'er continue to take shape and form.


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Can we recognize this entering into acceptance, or only in hind-sight?
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Depends upon how spiritually "open" you are-some things will be recognized physically-they become more peaceful and relaxed and voice their acceptance of things.

Some things are shown in a spiritual manner-we were unable to rebond spiritually UNTIL he passed through the final temptations and the "doors" were closed forever to him-this was a battle I was allowed to witness as it took EIGHT days to finish, and I could say NOTHING, but I watched-it was necessary for me to be there as my presence along with the Lord's; helped him to overcome this final battle-the Lord knew what He was doing when He placed me with him-we were out on the road when it occurred.
So I did know when he entered the final stage of Acceptance.



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You mention thes "splits" - how does this work - what does it look like?
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That again, is described on page 3, LSL. What happens, happens as they are on their way out of the tunnel.

Their personality "disintegrates" into several people-it is kind of like a psychiatric disease-schizophrenia, Three Faces of Eve...etc.

You will see many people within, personalities you have NEVER seen before-and you will recognize YOURSELF in some of them-as normally, we pick and choose how we are "packaged"-and did this a long time ago, when we became adults-or so we thought we did.

Each personality comes forward to be seen and tested-plus there are children who are mixed up within, too-the products of childhood wounds, second adolescence, etc.

You never know who you are going to see at any given moment, and it is hard to keep up with, but the bottom line is you MUST accept what you see-no matter who is showing.

You will see "flashes" of the OLD, "flashes" of the "new", and it is an internal struggle.

The best way to react is to accept this split and be patient-no matter who you see.

For it is at this time they will choose what they will keep and what they will throw away-and come through as mature adults for the FIRST time in their lives.

IF this doesn't complete-they WILL recycle-I saw it happen with my husband-description, page 3.

Normally they should complete this internal battle, face their final fears, bottom out and come on out of the tunnel-beginning the start into the stages of Acceptance.

My husband took a detour-bouncing into Withdrawal instead-description page 3.


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Do you see these children chronologically until all issues from these ages are resolved?
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Not necessarily, LSL-I only saw TWO children-one was 3 or 4 and one was 15.

His actions showed me the children-and I thought I was going crazy until our son said the SAME thing. We just kept being patient with the children-and YES, they would show up on his job. LOL

The 4 year old liked peanut butter on his pancakes. And was impatient, hustling and rushing-practically dragging whoever was with him along-not sure what he was in so much of a hurry for, I just ran with him, and so did our son. LOL

The 15 year was totally laid back, in no hurry- complained constantly, never happy with ANYTHING-possessed a HUGE appetite for sex, and checked me out constantly-I looked the part of a teen-ager and he was definitely attracted to me, sexually. But he also talked a great deal more to me, too, he was MORE open than I had ever seen him-and all that was packaged in the 15 year old.

I can NOT tell you what he managed to work out, other than job, family, and accepting himself-the other things I have NOT been shown-it is NOT for me to know-if the Lord wants me to know, He will have my husband tell me, and that may be the final key to getting totally out of this-and shutting the door on my end of it.

I am having some vague stirrings about that, and yes, there are some things I know, but-I cannot tell anything I know...yet. I cannot have Satan dabbling in this ANYMORE-and that has happened before when I didn't keep my mouth shut.

I can talk about the past all I want to, as it is set in stone-but what's coming, I cannot until it completes.


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How do you know when this splitting is done? (is it a hind-sight?)
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Depends again on your spiritual perception-his reintegration was slow, but steady. You will see him "come back together" into a changed, more mature, person-the immature traits you knew before his entrance into the tunnel will be gone, burned out of him.

The changes will continue, and you will see more and more as time goes on-he must be let go totally this final time to allow his changes to finish-he will come out of the storm during this final stage of Acceptance, and while he is still changing, but the changes will complete themselves-in time AFTER the exit from the MLC storm. He will take care of any unfinished business during this time-relationship repair, asking for forgiveness, finally "getting" the damage he has done-or he should, to close this out completely.

That last part was what the Lord has given me to say-I don't exactly have that final experience-I'm only as far as him coming out of the storm, and he is still in the "changing" department, completing his changes.



May 19, 2010
As an added note, I don't think I realized just what a busy lady I'd been back at that time....I do realize that I got VERY longwinded writing these posts.

Is ok, though, will make for some interesting reading I would think. Incidentally, the final sermon on Acceptance explained more of what a person could see when and if the MLC'er gets that far.

People's comprehension/understanding will not ALL come together at the same time, each person sometimes has to read, re-read and maybe read some more, and ask a thousand questions before they "get" what they have to get.

Please be patient with people that take various amounts of time to get what they need to do or even fight and argue about what they are having to learn...always remember where you came from, and remember that someone was patient with YOU, when YOU were in that same place.

Having compassion can go a long way toward helping someone that is deep within their misery; it is heartbreaking to see someone that has just had the bomb dropped on them...and knowing you were there once, too.

I always tried to NEVER forget where I came from, I answered many questions over and over and over and over until I saw the "lightbulb" come on, and they got it...then, you know, there were ALWAYS MORE questions..there always is, as not only the initial "getting it" has to be done, but LEARNING the aspects and many other things of this crisis need to be done as well on an ongoing basis.

We that have gone before are the guides that leave that trail of "breadcrumbs"..bits of information that helped in each of our individual situations.

Although, the circumstances of the crisis may be similar, no two people are the same, nor will their crisis be the same either.

Something to remember and oft repeated again and again and again.

Always remember, too, that each person's journey, whether the marriage comes through or not, is ALSO different, as we each have our own issues, baggage, and wounds that must be healed within us. These are brought out during the spouse's MLC, and sometimes brought out once AGAIN when/if the LBS goes through that same change themselves, triggered by the spouse's MLC.

Only when we come through successfully, whether with or without our marriage, will we be equipped to experience life at its fullest.

I came through his MLC WITH my marriage, but if my journey hadn't been taken to wholeness, things could have just as easily turned the other way, losing my marriage anyway, mainly because the "old" me wasn't going to work. Regardless, and even though I completed the journey, this was ALWAYS a possibility I STILL had to face throughout this crisis, as my husband held the decision of whether or not he would return to our marriage and keep it.
Believe it or not, when going through my transition, I held the SAME decision within my hands, and decided to keep what I had.

Each individual person has that SAME power, regardless of how powerless you may THINK you are.

Those of you who are hurting now:
Work through your anger, misery, hurt. Accept it, forgive the person that wronged you, forgive yourself for being a human being; pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and go on into the healing process...in time, you'll need to use that experience to help others come through what you've already been through.

Believe me, you can reach the place I stand in now.

I look back over 8 years now since I went through the misery of his MLC, and from where I stand now, I can tell you, it was worth EVERYTHING I went through. I walked the journey of a lifetime, becoming a better person than I was before through the lessons I learned.
I didn't become perfect(I only wish, LOL), but I became more confident, more settled, more tolerant, more loving, more sensitive than I had ever been.

Growing is always a good thing, attitude is the most important thing, as it doesn't matter WHAT you face, it is the ATTITUDE you have while within.
Each one of us learns to endure, learn what we need to learn, and come out better than we were before.

You're going to be ALL right, no matter what happens, and there will come a time when you will SEE that with a certainty...regardless of what happens or doesn't happen. Marriage or no Marriage, you'll be FINE..and a success for having GROWN through this opportunity that is also called your Spouse's MLC.

May God be with you all.

Much love,
HB

[SteveLW]

Bluesea, not to hijack your thread, but I think these questions have relevance to you too--

Bluesea, essentially what happened in 2005, was after my W's EA, when I confronted she immediately said she didn't want a D. She sent a NC email to the OM the next day. She then struggled for weeks with getting over her addiction to the EA. The OM only responded to her one time essentially telling her that that he didn't want to create anymore problems for her which is why he was not responding.

For my part, I just went back to business as normal.The changes I made were clearly just to get her back. And while I didn't just revert to my old self over night, it was a slow burn back to where I had been prior to the discovery of the EA. I had made no real changes.

Steve, I get that you didn't really do work on yourself in 2005 and then did so after the second incident and how that allowed you to move into M2.0. My question is-- what about your W? Sounds like she didn't put any work in after BD1, but did she after BD2? I'm assuming so... but how did that happen? Did she commit to making changes too-- beyond letting go of the EAP-- and how was that visible to you? Were you able to eventually communicate your needs to her and she listened and changed, or was it all self-focused change initiated by you that then led her to mirror or think or make changes herself?

Yes my W put in work after sitch #2 in 2017. She read a lot. We did MC. I also saw some profound changes in her. A recommitment back to church and our faith. She recommitted to work on the MR. We finally, after 19 years of marriage, fixed our SSM. So yes, we worked on ourselves individually, but also worked together as a couple. And as I've said that continues to this day.

After she had a slip-up last summer, she agreed to full transparency, she agreed to stop online gaming (where men were reaching out to her), and she rerecommitted to work on the marriage. I took a very tough stand with her last summer and essentially said I was done. While I took a lot of responsibility for both of our sitches, but I made sure she understood that the slip-up was ALL on her. That our MR2.0 was humming along well, and that there were none of the traditional factors that had been present in our MR before BD1 and 2 involved in the slip-up. After the slip-up the hard work was all on her part and she took it on. Once again doubling down on her commitment not only to the MR, but to church and faith. Things have been so much better since then as she has dug in and even become a better housekeeper! Something that she has struggled with her whole adult life.

So yes, one of the things I have become better about is my struggle with mild-NGS, and being able clearly communicate my needs. But the best thing I have done? Even after Ring and piecing was to continue my GAL. Continue to work on my 180s. And to continue to be self-differentiated!!

It seems to me like DBing is focusing on you, being your best self, but not necessarily being vulnerable to your S. At what point did you feel OK opening back up to her?

Opening back up to her was not a problem for me, it was waiting until SHE was ready. After BD#2 she wasn't interested in me, what I wanted, what I was doing, etc. She just didn't care. And so this question is a good one. We aren't not vulnerable to our spouses after BD because of us, we are not vulnerable to our spouses because of them! They have been clear that they want time and space, it would be unwise to at that point suddenly trying to be vulnerable and open up to them. The only way they can decide they want to come back is by giving them the time and space they need.

But I will tell you what I tell all LBS. You will know when it is time to be vulnerable and open back up. It won't be ambiguous. We have a saying around here, when your WAS wants to R you will know. When they don't, you will be confused. So many LBSs struggle with "oh he was nice to me, he must be coming back!" "Oh no, he is being mean that means he doesn't want to come back!" That is a fool's game. When they are ready to come back they will be willing to move mountains to do so.

I know she didn't MO and you've felt that that was an important aspect to R-ing in your sitch, b/c if she had left she would have had a lot harder time coming back. I have felt the same with my H (though perhaps now OK with him not coming back... working on this). People say here when they are ready for R, you won't be confused. That feels easy to assess when the WS has moved out and you have some real separation. How does that look when you're under the same roof?

I think her staying in my case worked. But that doesn't mean that her MO would have prevented our Ring and piecing. I think LBSs put too much emphasis on whether their WAS stays home or leaves. In fact, I've been on record about "the grass is always greener" attitude LBSs have about this. If they stay then LBSs say they can't detach. If the MO then LBSs complain that their WAS can't see the changes they are making. It is a catch-22. Go back to what I said above. When they are ready to R they will move mountains to do so! Having MO will not be a obstacle to that.

To answer your last question there, it looks the same. You will see in no uncertain terms that the WAS is ready to recommit back to the MR. Though I have to warn, it doesn't happen overnight in most cases. (Sometimes it does.) Most of the time it is a gradual turning. Little things they used to do start to come back. And it really is the little things. I noticed she started to tell me little things again. She started to share news stories with me again. She would DVR old shows that she likes to watch so I could see if I could recognize an actor we knew now back when they were young. I thinks LBSs get hung up on looking for big changes, when really it is usually a lot of little things that start the turnaround.

What I can tell you, is even when these signs started to happen, verbally they may still say they want to S and/or D. If I slipped up and broached that with my W even after the little things started to return, she would express interest in still being single again. This is why we say look at their actions, and ignore their words. Usually we say this in regards to the WAS saying positive things to the LBS, but are behaving negatively. It goes the other way to. When they start to making those little changes that show they are recommitting, ignore their negative words.

Bluesea... FWIW, there are a lot of parallels between our situations. After I found out about the extent and length of his A in December (he had previously only admitted to an EA, less than half of the time, and was telling me he was no longer in contact with her when he was), we had six weeks of tortuous limbo and DC. I do believe, like you, it wasn't until my H could tell I was serious about D and burst his fantasy D bubble that he moved into the space of making the decision to break it off with AP, which he did in mid-February. (It's weird, some of the things you've said your H has said to you sound exactly like what my H said to me when he was in the process of breaking it off with her.) Things have been getting better and better to the point that I thought we were maybe ready to enter piecing when he suddenly reestablished contact with her last week and is now completely back to where he was in January.

Of course my sitch is very fresh and I don't know what is really going on or what i'm going to do. (Steve, would appreciate any thoughts if you want to peek on my thread). But the one thing I think I would do differently and that I would pass along to you is KEEP DBing, just as Steve said. Don't drop your guard. Honor your own needs yourself and don't rely on him to help you heal right now. We made it a little less than four months before he completely backslid. So I think that maybe when you start to see positive signs, keep your head down and keep DBing. This is not for the impatient or the faint of heart!

I'll pop into your threads.

[BlueSea]

Thank you Cadet! that is a treasure trove of great information! Really appreciate that you would take the time to share this here

May - thanks for your questions to Steve - I had some myself I was just about to ask, yours covered them and more....thanks for posting where your at, I am going to go to your thread and read your situation. I DEFINITELY am feeling that I am making this WAY too easy for him - I don't know what to do honestly (in addition to DB) I have a gut feeling that this is all moving in the wrong direction and that my situation will parallel yours.

If you can answer a few q's: Did he say that this OW was not important? that it was not her but the marriage that was the problem?

The systemic problem that he said that caused him to wander was his loneliness and belief that he could not find happiness with me. We are co-habitating but we are not really talking - not connecting - and he absolutely does not make any efforts to outside of small talk. He has told me that even small talk is effort for him! So, from what I understand from him, he said he stepped out in the first place due to this 'no connection' with me, so I feel that to DB in some way re-enforces this. I mean, how can one DB and connect? Detaching and Connecting are the exact opposite!

Unless the outlier is that he is just lying to me. Lying to stay in the house. I can definitely sense that all those threats to leave were just that, threats - he does seem to go right up to the line - he knows that in any conversation that is a back and forth of power there is a quiet moment that I am ready to just ask him to leave - he senses it and back pedals.

I REALLY thought I had the strength to hang with the 'big boys' here and go the marathon. I just may not. I feel that something has to happen in my situation for a real crack at getting this R back on track. We can not just coast back into a relationship. I know he is not at the point of doing any work - I think just like May's H - he will get restless dealing with those same feelings and step out. This feels like heading straight on into a car wreck at 100mph and not knowing what to do....

Thank you Steve for sharing more about your situation - it helps.

[Spiral]

Blue,

It may very well be heading straight on into a car wreck at 100 mph. But you do know what to do, you need to get out of the car. And you do that by continuing to detach.

I too have heard the claim that it was the marriage that was the problem. That's what wayward spouses who are married to good people say to justify their decision to cheat. I don't buy it.

-Spiral

[LH19]

The systemic problem that he said that caused him to wander was his loneliness and belief that he could not find happiness with me.

You are taking him at his word. Words mean nothing.

We are co-habitating but we are not really talking - not connecting - and he absolutely does not make any efforts to outside of small talk.

You can't force him Blue. This is going to take months if not years to work itself out.

He has told me that even small talk is effort for him!

That's not a good sign.

So, from what I understand from him, he said he stepped out in the first place due to this 'no connection' with me, so I feel that to DB in some way re-enforces this. I mean, how can one DB and connect? Detaching and Connecting are the exact opposite!

You have to let him come to you.

Unless the outlier is that he is just lying to me.

Very likely.

I REALLY thought I had the strength to hang with the 'big boys' here and go the marathon. I just may not. I feel that something has to happen in my situation for a real crack at getting this R back on track.

This is known as "the illusion of action"

We can not just coast back into a relationship.

I agree. He needs to do the work.

I know he is not at the point of doing any work - I think just like May's H - he will get restless dealing with those same feelings and step out.

You can't control that Blue. You can control what happens if he does step out again.

[may22]

If you can answer a few q's: Did he say that this OW was not important? that it was not her but the marriage that was the problem?

Before I knew the full situation, he insisted it was the M that was the problem. It only became once I learned the full extent of the A that it became clear it is mostly about AP and his fear of losing her. He definitely leans on the problems in the MR for why it happened in the first place, but that is just him placing blame anywhere but on himself. If AP weren't in the picture, I think we'd be in a different place right now.

The systemic problem that he said that caused him to wander was his loneliness and belief that he could not find happiness with me. We are co-habitating but we are not really talking - not connecting - and he absolutely does not make any efforts to outside of small talk. He has told me that even small talk is effort for him! So, from what I understand from him, he said he stepped out in the first place due to this 'no connection' with me, so I feel that to DB in some way re-enforces this. I mean, how can one DB and connect? Detaching and Connecting are the exact opposite!

My H has said the same thing about not believing he could find happiness in the MR with me. There is a level of circular reasoning going on here-- I think he HAS to believe it is impossible to be happy with me, because if he accepted that as a possibility, then it makes what he did with AP somehow less justified in his mind.

I think you need to give him SPACE. If small talk is an effort for him, why would you want to put him through that? He may be at a place right now where being around you is difficult for whatever reason, and you don't want to actively aggravate him. I would just DB, focus on you, let him be for now. When he does reach out and try to connect-- and he probably will-- be warm and make eye contact, listen, validate, but don't overdo it. Then go back to focusing on yourself.

It may very well be heading straight on into a car wreck at 100 mph. But you do know what to do, you need to get out of the car. And you do that by continuing to detach.

Spiral, I really like this. Thanks for sharing it.

[SteveLW]

I mean, how can one DB and connect? Detaching and Connecting are the exact opposite!

In what world do you think that trying to connect with him right now is the right move? As LH says, you let him come to you! First of all, you are way to early in his ending the PA, if that is really what he has done, to even trust things enough to try connecting with him. That time my come, but he has earned you detaching right now, and he should also earn you reconnecting too!

And as far as detachment, so many LBSs struggle with this. Detachment is about being content and happy by yourself. Putting your happiness in the hands of someone else is never healthy. First, it puts way too much pressure on the other person. They have their own happiness to be in control of, you can't expect them to be in control of yours too! Further, codependency is always a terrible thing. We live in an imperfect world. Your H could be gone due to death at any moment. You need to be enough of a completely whole person in order to be able to move on. SOmetimes the term "detachment" confuses people. Google: "self-differentiation in marriage" for more information on what it should really look like.

And I want to repeat something else LH said to you: STOP BELIEVING ANYTHING HE SAYS. One thing you can count on WSs to do is to lie. If their their lips are moving they are lying.

[BlueSea]

In what world do you think that trying to connect with him right now is the right move? As LH says, you let him come to you!

Steve, LH - Yes! Why is it that I can not see this myself? When I read your advice its crystal clear and I kick myself for allowing myself to get so confused so easily. I overly complicate things. I think being an LBS induces a sort of brain damage. I am grateful for this board and advice found here. I wish I could maintain solid focus (much like Spiral) and stop getting deterred so easily. And again, why do I continue to try to rush everything? It has just a been a week since OW is out of the picture, (still unconfirmed).

Spiral - you quickly were able to nail it on the head. "Just get out of the car. Detach." Yes! I would like to say I would know this, but at this point, I can not see the forest for the trees sometimes. So thank you for the straight on succinct advice.

May - I hear you about giving him space. I need a huge billboard to remind me as I leave my room, on what I need to do, and keep focus on - maybe a small one, that just says - DB, detach, low contact. Its hard to DB when they are in the house!
...
I have given thought about the relationship and 'heal ability' at this point. Its low. He is trying to move forward with all of us, without showing remorse. Downplaying it even. I am very wary of backsliding. I do not trust him at all. He is speaking a good game (he is in sales after all). We had our MC today, and he was very positive, and even asked to borrow MWD's Healing from Infidelity book from me. The counselor was definitely enamored with his humor. Kills me he can work everyone so easily. I keep track of ACTIONS in my Journal - helps me to attempt to stay clear of his spin. I am way too gullible otherwise. If he reads the MWD book - then I will note the action in my Journal.

I will not lie and say I don't love him still, but not as fiercely as I use to. I still do want to move forward on a path with him....but I now see a path without him that exists and that path is no longer the end of the world. And when I think of that path without him, I no longer have a panic attack or feel anxious. I just feel resignation, as in, sigh, too bad. He asked me about how I feel the other day on where we were, and I let him know as objectively as possible that our marriage was an island...and however long it takes for him to drift towards that island...I am on the other side, drifting away during that same time. I guess that just happens naturally right? Does that happen to others here? Love just floats away? Or does one just get numb from all the pain?

I feel like love is an entity that needs to be fed and nourished, and its pretty sickly right now over here - I understand I need to be feeding my own love myself and getting it back to healthy - I think I am just realizing that this is what I have to do since its crazy for me to have any expectations that he will feed the love AT ALL....So I can continue to be the shell I am, waiting for love that will never come from him, or I can get up, brush myself off, introspect, and GAL. I think once I do that, I will be stronger as a person, no longer taking things so personally, and have the wherewithal to separate that their actions are just that, theirs. Their feelings, or sway in feelings have no affect on me - that only will happen if I have healthy self-love & detachment.

But seeing that's what I have to do, and doing it, are two separate things.

[BlueSea]

Had a real bad weekend....

I was trying to set a boundary not to tolerate open rudeness / generally treating me like dirt. Caused alot of problems when I spoke up. One scenario, my 16dd became a moderator almost, as she was in the room listening to a conversation that went left. I called out H for being extremely rude. (caveat: I know, the kids should not be involved).

He would not acknowledge that he was rude at all. It was only until dd explained that he really was, did he finally relent. He wanted the conversation to stop to address later (which really meant when dd was not there so he could mow me over) but I said that it was so rare to have a third party, that I would like to have that input. After getting some 'input' from dd that he was being rude/arrogant/harsh - he kept trying to focus/ put the blame on me - of which the input was that I was being defensive but reasonably so. He did not like this. He does not like being wrong.

He ended up storming out, saying he was the 'bad guy' - in a poor him type of way. But it made an impression. He later came back and said he should not be rude, and that I should speak up if he was being overly rude. But, then he backtracked and said loudly he 'REALLY DID NOT CARE!' that there was an elephant in the room that we were not addressing - and he smirked - like he was going in territory that he thought I was fearful of. So I spoke up instead - and said - 'are you insinuating that the elephant is that you do not love me? That you did not want to be with me? Sure, that is the elephant - but I know that - trying to pull the rug out from under me every time we have a conversation is just not okay. Stop being a bully.

I am not even sure how it ended, later my dd told me she had heard it, and said he really just talked me in circles and made no real concessions at all. I guess I take in what I want to hear. Doesn't matter, I should not even be talking to him about that stuff. Just tired of the relentless bullying.

I am not DB'ing. I know it.
I have so much anger, I know I need to work harder and stay focused.
I got thru the OW phase and it took so much out of me, and now I am just washing away all that effort by not continuing to DB and I just don't understand why I can't keep it together.

[LH19]

BS,

Don't be too hard on yourself. Learning to control your emotions is a difficult task. My guess he is gas lighting you trying to get you to file or ask him to leave so you're the bad gut. Stay out of his way and give him time and space. If OW is really gone then he will need time to grieve her anyways. You are at mile 1 of the marathon. The misconception is once the OP is gone things will be fine. That is actually so far from the truth.

Stay strong girl!

[Andy88]

You won't be perfect, no one is. When you make a mistake, learn from it, keep learning and keep doing your best. You will only get stronger and better.

[SteveLW]

Had a real bad weekend....

I was trying to set a boundary not to tolerate open rudeness / generally treating me like dirt. Caused alot of problems when I spoke up. One scenario, my 16dd became a moderator almost, as she was in the room listening to a conversation that went left. I called out H for being extremely rude. (caveat: I know, the kids should not be involved).

He would not acknowledge that he was rude at all. It was only until dd explained that he really was, did he finally relent. He wanted the conversation to stop to address later (which really meant when dd was not there so he could mow me over) but I said that it was so rare to have a third party, that I would like to have that input. After getting some 'input' from dd that he was being rude/arrogant/harsh - he kept trying to focus/ put the blame on me - of which the input was that I was being defensive but reasonably so. He did not like this. He does not like being wrong.

He ended up storming out, saying he was the 'bad guy' - in a poor him type of way. But it made an impression. He later came back and said he should not be rude, and that I should speak up if he was being overly rude. But, then he backtracked and said loudly he 'REALLY DID NOT CARE!' that there was an elephant in the room that we were not addressing - and he smirked - like he was going in territory that he thought I was fearful of. So I spoke up instead - and said - 'are you insinuating that the elephant is that you do not love me? That you did not want to be with me? Sure, that is the elephant - but I know that - trying to pull the rug out from under me every time we have a conversation is just not okay. Stop being a bully.

I am not even sure how it ended, later my dd told me she had heard it, and said he really just talked me in circles and made no real concessions at all. I guess I take in what I want to hear. Doesn't matter, I should not even be talking to him about that stuff. Just tired of the relentless bullying.

I am not DB'ing. I know it.
I have so much anger, I know I need to work harder and stay focused.
I got thru the OW phase and it took so much out of me, and now I am just washing away all that effort by not continuing to DB and I just don't understand why I can't keep it together.

BS, DBing is a choice you make. And it is a choice you can decide you don't want to do. But the opposite of DBing is pulling the plug and moving forward with the D. That is something I considered in my sitch too. After I watched my W go through her withdrawals over her EAP. When I found her messages back and forth to him she was convincing him that he should be concentrating on his relationship with his GF. I think it was a passive-aggressive way of testing him to see how into her he was. So a few weeks later, when I saw her in depression, I even said to her "XXXXX decided tos tay with his GF, didn't he?"

But I struggled, mightily, with whether to walk away or not. Watching my W of 19 years, pining for a guy whom she had never met in person (and was a total loser by the way), was extremely difficult. It was anger inducing. It made me wonder if I had the patience and fortitude to wait for her to turn around and commit back to the marriage. Sure enough she started to look for OM#2 (because she was wayward).

So the LBS usually gets to a "should or stay or should I go" point. I remember people telling me here that I was lucky that my sitch was where it was at and to remain patient. And I did. But the thought of pulling the plug and moving on became more and more a temptation as time went on.

The good news is that your sitch as progressed to where you are no longer desperate, having to hold on for dear life, and to a point where you have the power to decide to continue or to pull the plug. As I have guided others in your position is that there is no need to decide right away. Take your time. Let the anger subside. It is never a good way to make decisions out of emotions. Lots of LBSs have allowed their emotions, their hurt and pain, to make them make a rash decision, and then regretted it later. So take time. Let your emotions settle, And then decide how you want to proceed.

If you want to continue being patient and DB, do it. If you'd rather pull the plug and move forward with your awesome life apart from your WAS, no one will fault you for that choice! But having the power to choose for yourself is a good thing!

[BlueSea]

Don't be too hard on yourself. Learning to control your emotions is a difficult task. My guess he is gas lighting you trying to get you to file or ask him to leave so you're the bad gut. Stay out of his way and give him time and space. If OW is really gone then he will need time to grieve her anyways. You are at mile 1 of the marathon. The misconception is once the OP is gone things will be fine. That is actually so far from the truth.

LH - Thank you for the encouragement - everything about your statement is dead on truth. He so WANTS me to be the bad guy and kick him out....And I REALLY thought that once OW was gone, it would be different...its not. In fact, he is MORE firmly of the belief he doesnt connect with me and will never be happy with me - since he says that OW is no longer clouding his judgement (like I had said she was). Thank you for the encouragement.

Thanks Andy88!

Take your time. Let the anger subside. It is never a good way to make decisions out of emotions. Lots of LBSs have allowed their emotions, their hurt and pain, to make them make a rash decision, and then regretted it later. So take time. Let your emotions settle, And then decide how you want to proceed.

Steve -Thank you for your insight - really good advice. I have been talked off a ledge on this point. Really really appreciate that you have taken the time to stop in and drop encouragement to not give up. I need to just back off. I know I am angry right now, or was, but now just really sad.

All he does is keep telling me that he does not love me, that he will never connect with me - that he knows this in his heart. That he see's how this plays out in 5 years and he will be miserable. He says he does not even like to talk to me (big 2x4 that DBing IS the way to go) or even like me. How could he love me last year, and not love me in the least now? Are all waywards like this - saying no love, no connection, never going to work? projecting an awful future with such certainty? and the repetition of it - just over and over - its wearing me down. Do I just walk away while he is talking like that? or do I agree with him?

[LH19]

Blue,

Yep. “I understand you feel this way”. Then walk away or better go out.

[may22]

Yes, they are all this way. It is a total script. Don't let it get to you. Let it wash over you, validate, and move on with your day. Don't let him rope you into an R talk. Just focus on yourself and GAL.

[BlueSea]

Thank you May and LH!

I just wanted to know if it was just my wayward H that acts in this manner....its good to know they all are like this....its so painful to hear, and he just keeps repeating it and it just hurts so bad.

And he says he is so lonely and usually starts to tear up when he says that...but I am lonely too!! I told him to make playdates - and he has - going out with friend for lunch, another for dinner, going on a float trip. Sort of pisses me off, but I know that's good for him. Should I have suggested that? I was to GAL for myself but I am struggling there - and off HE goes with plans. Was that a good idea? in solving his loneliness problem, did I just screw myself?

I know I need to GAL, but quarantine and kids are just blockers (whine), and July 4th is coming up...long weekend...dreading it.

I am lonely. Don't you all get lonely?

[Kind18]

Of course we get lonely! I’m a physical touch guy, so the loneliness is terribly difficult.

How could he love me last year, and not love me in the least now? Are all waywards like this - saying no love, no connection, never going to work?

Yep, standard play book. I have 10 years of continual FB posts from my wife praising me as an incredible husband, father and provider. Birthdays, anniversaries, holidays - you name it, she was absolutely head over heels.

Then she hit MLC. Suddenly it was “I don’t think I ever loved you.” And “I haven’t been happy for our whole 12 year relationship.”

Standard stuff which you see time and time again on this forum. DON’T take it on board.

Have a read of AmyC’s story here:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

Standard play book here:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=960393&page=1

[LH19]

Blue you I have nothing but compassion for what you are going through but if I do not give it to you real the consequences can be devastating. What your husband did to you and your family was a terrible thing and unjustifiable. Affairs are acts of anger -- he has built up a ton of resentment toward you, and since he's avoidant, he hasn't given voice to any of it or worked any of it through. I'm not saying you've done anything wrong, or that you deserve his resentment, it could be completely irrational, but the point is that it exists. The thing is Blue you are the one on the board trying to save your marriage and if you don't learn STFU and eat your $hit sandwiches then he is most certainly going to walk again back to OW arms.

Relationships generally fall apart for one of three reasons: (1) One partner becomes emotionally unstable for a variety of reasons, which may include mental illness, addiction, issues related to a bad childhood, etc. (2) One partner has a momentary lapse of judgement and cheats and the other partner can't forgive them, or (3) the relationship slowly degrades over time for both people.

My guess is you are in scenario three where the vicious cycle that tends to land people here -- your needs aren't being met, so you're less motivated to provide your H with what he needs. His needs aren't being met, so he's not motivated to give you what you need, and that spinning wheel eventually drives you apart until one person (or both people) decides they want out.

I have selected some recent statements by you from some recent posts. You have to put your needs aside and start trying to meet his needs. He is not coming back to the same marriage and if he does he will just be miserable. I know it [censored] because he cheated! I know it [censored] that he put you through so much pain! I am just telling you the reality of your situation.

Now in the mean time you need to get yourself healthy and give it your all so that if he walks again you will be ok with it. Everything you do is out of fear because deep down you feel like you are not enough. When you get to a place where you love yourself and know your value and you give your best to someone else then if they walk you are ok with it because you know you gave it your best.

I let him know it was time he took it on the chin for once, I had alot of anger, and it all spewed out. Anyone over 40 is on a journey for happiness, did not give one the right to throw their loved ones under the bus.

So he decides to try again and you yell at him for 4 hours. Does that hurt recon goal or help recon goal?

I want to cater to his MLC needs, but, at this point I want to recognize that I have needs, and start moving my name up the list

Again, I would try meeting his needs first. You are here. He is not.

And he says he is so lonely and usually starts to tear up when he says that...but I am lonely too!!
I know your lonely too but you need to be ok with it for now.
[quote=BlueSea]I told him to make playdates - and he has - going out with friend for lunch, another for dinner, going on a float trip.

You are not his mother you are his W.

Sort of pisses me off, but I know that's good for him.

You have to release the anger

I am lonely. .

I know you are Blue and I am sorry but you are going to be lonely for a long time if you don't tighten your game up.

[SteveLW]

Thank you May and LH!

I just wanted to know if it was just my wayward H that acts in this manner....its good to know they all are like this....its so painful to hear, and he just keeps repeating it and it just hurts so bad.

My W was the exact same way. Though she claimed to "love" me she made it known it was a platonic, non-sexual love. She even compared me to a very unattractive guy we know, saying that when she thought of me she put me in the same category as him. That one hurt. Ain't gonna lie.

Of course a few weeks later she was initiating sex with me at an inhuman rate. So it is important to realize that while he feels that way right now, it can change in the future. The way you help that along to DB! GAL, 180s, and detachment. I cannot stress enough how much those three helped in my situation. The more I recaptured the guy I was when we met, the more I self-improve and became a better version of myself, and the more I acted "as if", didn't react emotionally to her words and deeds, and embraced moving on and her moving on........the more she slowly but surely started to come around.

Trust the process.

And he says he is so lonely and usually starts to tear up when he says that...but I am lonely too!! I told him to make playdates - and he has - going out with friend for lunch, another for dinner, going on a float trip. Sort of pisses me off, but I know that's good for him. Should I have suggested that? I was to GAL for myself but I am struggling there - and off HE goes with plans. Was that a good idea? in solving his loneliness problem, did I just screw myself?

NO you shouldn't have. Listen. And validate. "Wow, that must be difficult for you. I understand how you feel."

I know I need to GAL, but quarantine and kids are just blockers (whine), and July 4th is coming up...long weekend...dreading it.

I am lonely. Don't you all get lonely?

You know it already. GAL solves lonliness. If you are lonely then you aren't GAL enough. Reconnect with old friends. Find support groups. Be busy! I say this all the time, the LBSs that struggle the most are the ones that do GAL the worst. Sitting around, stewing in your own juices, and thinking about your sitch 24/7 will not move you forward.

[BlueSea]

Have a read of AmyC’s story here:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741
Standard play book here:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=960393&page=1

Kind18 - Those links are an absolute Godsend!!! It was meant for you to drop in on my thread. I have been reading thru them for the past 4 hours....that really helped a lot, so thank you! That standard play book is HILARIOUS and gruesome at the same time. I was laughing and wincing at the same time. Unless I would have found these boards would I realize that all of this is so text book! Definitely could not have gotten to this point without this support.

Stop in any time Kind18! I know you are feeling my pain with your MLC spouse. Its a never ending battle.

[BlueSea]

LH - I hear you. I hear you - and appreciate your advice more than you know. I know I am screwing up and I just kick myself for doing this - I am not doing the right things - I am messing up in a big way - and I am scared. Before I was more angry than scared. Either way I am all over the place and need to just stop.

It should be pretty easy... "STFU and eat your $hit sandwiches"...I know.
There is more going on here that I have not shared.

This is very difficult for me to post. In the hopes of creating a connection - I really thought this would be a good idea, instead it did the opposite. Its part of what is going on with me and affects where I am at.

In the past 10 days, we have had time 'together' twice. Completely different then it had ever been.
-The first time: choke holds, being thrown, a lot of assault hold down type behavior.
-The second: (yes, second, I thought I would just tell him that it was not my thing & that I was not up for aggression). He responded like he got it, and it started fine, but then turned into a complete non-consensual, world of pain act. I just pushed thru it. I am an adult, I opened the door for that behavior. Hard lesson learned. I put myself in a bad situation with someone I once trusted. I will not do that again. And....

For all that 'fun' I came away with an std (the antibiotic kind, not the rest of your life kind). Makes me sick to even type that. I think you called that LH, or someone here did (H told me he had been safe)- and that has really pushed me to a bad spot. It could have been worse. And I don't have the full panel back yet. So this contributes to my erratic, non DBing, angry, sad, who knows what I feel moment to moment.

I am trying to pull it together.
From now on I am going to shut up and listen to the veterans. I will say I am in a bad state and I need serious breadcrumbs to know how to move forward with H now.
Blue

[HopeCA]

Dear BlueSea,

I am so so sorry that this happened to you. You were extremely brave to post it here, and I’m really glad you did.
As you move forward, please allow yourself to see this event for what it truly was, and try to allow yourself not to minimize it for yourself.
I’m so sorry, take very good care of yourself, and please prioritize your safety, physically and emotionally.


Sending you Love

[Ginger1]

Oh dear blu.

Non-consensual = rape. He raped you. I was able to se who’s emotional abuse easily. But it is physical abuse now. And before you tell me you consented, you didn’t just because you “pushed through it”

Please take the advice from this vet, and get out of there. You don’t need to eat -sh!t sandwiches. You need to save your life.

God I hope someone on the board backs me up here.

[HopeCA]

Oh dear blu.

Non-consensual = rape. He raped you. I was able to se who’s emotional abuse easily. But it is physical abuse now. And before you tell me you consented, you didn’t just because you “pushed through it”

Please take the advice from this vet, and get out of there. You don’t need to eat -sh!t sandwiches. You need to save your life.

God I hope someone on the board backs me up here.

I agree whole heartedly with all of this.

[HaWho]

Don’t take this on. Do not blame yourself.

This is way beyond the scope of divorce busting, drinking STFU smoothies or eating sh!t sandwiches.

Physical abuse is never, never, NEVER okay. What he did is illegal and punishable by law.

Get out of there. There is nothing to work with here. Get yourself some counseling to work though it.

You did nothing wrong. But you need to get out of there.

[BlueSea]

Okay, this is not what I need, really. I am already regretting it.

I don't want the flood gates open because then I will just have to leave the boards and I don't want that.

Ginger, have asked before if you could just skip my thread - we don't connect - your stirring the pot, with your back me up stuff and I just don't appreciate it.

For f sake, Job, just delete that posting.

[Ginger1]

I can’t skip on this post because this is serious. Very serious. And you may find me harsh, but I’m truthful. And I never want to see something so horrible happen to anyone, including you.

When you mention rape, this is going to happen. People are going to want to protect you.

I pray and hope you get the help you need and protect yourself. I don’t care how much you hate me.

[scout12]

You did NOT deserve that. You did NOT ask for it. I'm so sorry. You may not want to hear it but it IS abuse and it IS rape. Please do NOT blame yourself or think this is something you have to endure to get your husband back. His behaviour is absolutely horrendous. Please keep yourself safe and limit this man's access to your body and your mind. He IS dangerous and it WILL escalate. PLEASE listen to the objective opinions here.

[BlueSea]

You know the type of people that say " I am just telling the truth" --- a@@holes!
So f'ing obnoxious that they hide behind that blanket statement. We ALL know people like that.

I for one, don't want your prayers - you don't know me - and I don't think for one second that you give a rats a@@ about me ..with your bless your heart routine. Go sell your crazy somewhere else.

I will make it explicitly clear to you (this is the third post I tell you Ginger)...GO AWAY! LEAVE ME ALONE! YOUR EXACTLY THE REASON I SHOULDN'T HAVE POSTED!

What PROVES your insensitive is that you had to come back and post again.

[BlueSea]

Okay... if I could have edited my post...which I could not, but this is what it should have been:


Ginger, this is really sensitive territory for me, and (this is the third post I ask)...I would appreciate if you just skip my thread. I don't understand why you had to come back and post again. Your advice goes sideways for me.

It happened.. Things could have been way worse. I close that chapter with lesson learned. My H is an a@@hole that is pumped full of testosterone and I should have known better after that first experience. I made the choice to try again. He should not have acted like that. I know that. But I don't feel like I need to flee.

I am pretty raw emotionally, so please, just tread lightly, no more r posts. I just have my defenses up and probably over reacting - I know its all meant well - but some of the posts have made me pop a circuit breaker emotionally. I literally had to edit my original post which consisted of mostly f bombs.

Why did I post? So, I know LH is an awesome person (you are) and I know I was f'ing up - but I just wanted him to know - to just know there was more than me not trying. SO I posted - and I regret it. The shock is new to you all, but not to me - does that even make sense?

I appreciate this board and don't want to leave. What a mess I have made here. Now the focus is all on that incident. LH? Steve? (Spiral -if your still here?) help me climb out of this muck. Job.delete it. fix it. How can I even come back?

[BluWave]

Blue,

Oh my dear, I am very sorry you are so frustrated! Please do not leave us! We are here to help! I have been reading here a long time now and I have seen plenty of conflict arise. Myself included :-( It happens rather often actually! Our emotions are running high, we are vulnerable and we don’t all communicate the same way. We trigger one another very easily as we see ourselves in people’s posts. I don’t know your sitch but I will go back and read and see if I have anything new to offer.

I’m very sorry you are hurting! Deep breath... one at a time..... I think you can get through this and find support here! I know it!

Hugs!
Blu

[LH19]

Blue,

I am really sorry that this has happened to you and is quite concerning. Is it possible your husband is taking steroids? Did you communicate to him that you were not ok with what happened? I agree that what happened is bigger then what the board is equipped to handle and you should discuss this with a trained therapist in this area.

Again, I’m really sorry this happened to you and you should not ever feel unsafe while having sex with your husband.

[SteveLW]

Bluesea, that is not good. And I now understand your anger.

Protect yourself. And I mean that in every way possible.

[SteveLW]

As far as leaving the board, please don't. We can help. You were honest and like everything else, you use it to learn from and move forward.

Hugs to you. This to shall pass.

[BlueSea]

Blu - it would be great if I can get your advice on my situation - I have read some of your threads and your posts and they are always insightful and helpful. I would so appreciate it.

LH - not sure if testosterone is a steroid, but after talking to my dr about his dosage, its pretty high from what I told her.. She suggested that I remove all firearms from the house, which I plan to do soon. He is also on human growth hormone. I do agree that the boards are geared to divorce topics and have no problem keeping it there.
- I did let him know that I was not okay with what happened. He blamed me saying that I had said (weeks ago) that he was a 'nice guy' in context of the NGS and he turned it all back on me.
- As well, with the std, his first reaction was, "It wasn't me". And professed his safety for a long time, pretty much until the test results came in.
- I will not have any further safety issues, because I will not be with him in that way again.

Steve - I really wanted to be honest, because this is a part of my situation. Honestly, I could not handle this situation alone, without advice and support from this board, so I really appreciate being here.

I know I have messed things up. He took a 'day' ride today - and lied about where he really went - not going where he said he was going. All his usual tells just coming out in full force again. Not good. I shouldn't care, I know, but I do, and its all backsliding. I have pushed him far. Maybe at this point, just keeping my mouth shut would be a good first step.

[Spiral]

Blue,

You need to keep detaching and you need to keep GALing. Divorcebusting will help get you to where you need to be emotionally in order to take stock of your situation and decide whether you should walk away. You also need to avoid being alone with him, particularly in an intimate setting. Finally, you need to tell someone in real life what happened and everything else that you are holding back. Consider calling the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE and talking to them.

Is this really the first time anything like this has happened or are these just two more instances in a long string of abuse? If it is the latter, then you really do need to do something urgently and you should consider leaving immediately. Be brutally honest with yourself. You already know the truth and whether you have to leave.

And don't be too hard on yourself for "mucking" things up. You didn't muck anything up. Your situation is an extremely difficult one and it is hard to extricate yourself emotionally from someone like your husband. But it is important that you try.

Do keep posting, particularly if you have nowhere else to turn. I am confident that there are at least a few people on the board with the professional experience necessary to help you if you need and want the assistance.

-Spiral

[may22]

Hi Blue,

I just wanted to add into the others to say:

You are so brave for posting this here.

You have a whole community of people here who care about YOU.

You haven't messed anything up. Be kind to yourself. You don't deserve this and it is NOT OK what he did to you.

An a few questions:

Is there anyone IRL that you can talk to? A friend or family member who you trust? Do you have an IC?

Is there somewhere you can go for a few days to get a bit of space? If it is too hard to think of it like leaving him, maybe framing it to yourself like you just need some space and/or a break can allow you to get out of the house?

Are your worried about your children at all?

Would it help to think of your H like he is on drugs and not the same person as the one you married?

I really, really think you need to get all firearms out of your house ASAP. Violent, erratic behavior and guns do not mix.

Please do keep posting and let us know that you are safe.

[BlueSea]

Be brutally honest with yourself. You already know the truth and whether you have to leave....

Spiral - I know the truth - its my execution that has problems. I can not leave. That just is.

And don't be too hard on yourself for "mucking" things up. You didn't muck anything up. Your situation is an extremely difficult one and it is hard to extricate yourself emotionally from someone like your husband. But it is important that you try.

Thanks for that Spiral, I beat up myself a lot - on the knowing what to do - but failing to do it. I am trying to extricate myself emotionally, it is hard, he plays me well. This morning I was greeted with a warm hug, came all the way to my room to do so - he knows he has to put some breadcrumbs out - he senses I am feeling broken/down.

So it is important to realize that while he feels that way right now, it can change in the future. The way you help that along to DB! GAL, 180s, and detachment. I cannot stress enough how much those three helped in my situation. The more I recaptured the guy I was when we met, the more I self-improve and became a better version of myself, and the more I acted "as if", didn't react emotionally to her words and deeds, and embraced moving on and her moving on........the more she slowly but surely started to come around.
Trust the process.

Steve - Trust the process - yes, I will. The answer is and always is: GAL, 180s, and detachment. Rinse, repeat. I make things more complicated. I think I know better. Sometimes I think I have a shortcut. Clearly not. I will trust the process. thanks for being that guiding light.

May First off, thank you for your kindness - for the questions:
Is there anyone IRL that you can talk to? A friend or family member who you trust? Do you have an IC?
No, no one knows - the anonymity here makes it possible for me to share.
No IC. That well is too deep.

Is there somewhere you can go for a few days to get a bit of space? If it is too hard to think of it like leaving him, maybe framing it to yourself like you just need some space and/or a break can allow you to get out of the house?
I am happy here. I know what you are suggesting is a good idea. I have small pleasures here that I enjoy and need - walking the yard, sitting by the fountain in the sun, bumping into pets along the way.
I know he should be the one to go - having that actually happen seems to destroys the possibility of a future of how our family used to be, and that is what my heart is holding on to so hard - even though my head knows that's all gone.

Are your worried about your children at all?
I always worry how this will affect them.

Would it help to think of your H like he is on drugs and not the same person as the one you married?
Yes. I do try to think of him as special needs, and that helps in my interaction with him actually.

I really, really think you need to get all firearms out of your house ASAP. Violent, erratic behavior and guns do not mix.
Yes. I need to do that. He knows where they are all at and that is the only problem.

I am safe May - thank you for caring!!!

Some questions:
What do you do when they threaten to leave?
What do you do when they are outright lying to you?
What do you do when they want to hug and you just dont?
What do you do when they are being rude and crossing a boundary? (like being mean)
How do you respond to gas lighting?

thank you!!

[SteveLW]

So it is important to realize that while he feels that way right now, it can change in the future. The way you help that along to DB! GAL, 180s, and detachment. I cannot stress enough how much those three helped in my situation. The more I recaptured the guy I was when we met, the more I self-improve and became a better version of myself, and the more I acted "as if", didn't react emotionally to her words and deeds, and embraced moving on and her moving on........the more she slowly but surely started to come around.
Trust the process.

Steve - Trust the process - yes, I will. The answer is and always is: GAL, 180s, and detachment. Rinse, repeat. I make things more complicated. I think I know better. Sometimes I think I have a shortcut. Clearly not. I will trust the process. thanks for being that guiding light.

One thing to remember. It is easy for me to say (and type) GAL, 180, and detach. Some call that cookie cutter advice. The good news is that the advice is SIMPLE. And I believe in KISS as a principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid). I am stupid in that principle!

The execution of that advice is much more difficult. Easy to say, hard to do. But if you think about it, nothing worthwhile in life is easy!

Some questions:
What do you do when they threaten to leave?
What do you do when they are outright lying to you?
What do you do when they want to hug and you just dont?
What do you do when they are being rude and crossing a boundary? (like being mean)
How do you respond to gas lighting?

thank you!!

In order:

Offer to help them pack.

Make an excuse to end the conversation. In fact, this is a tool that LBSs would do themselves a favor on if they'd employ it more often! Then walkaway and do something productive!

Do not hug them if that is how you feel. You have a right to turn them down, just like they feel they have a right to turn you down. So simply state: "I don't want to hug." Then walkaway and do something productive!

Make an excuse to end the conversation. In fact, this is a tool that LBSs would do themselves a favor on if they'd employ it more often! Then walkaway and do something productive!

Make an excuse to end the conversation. In fact, this is a tool that LBSs would do themselves a favor on if they'd employ it more often! Then walkaway and do something productive!

[may22]

What do you do when they threaten to leave?
If you can't quite get to "let me help you pack" (that is expert-level DB) practice "OK" and leaving it at that. Then walk away.

For all the rest... practice some exit lines so you have them at the ready. Whether making a viable excuse ("I'm so sorry, I forgot something I need to take care of" and walking away, or being more direct "I'm really not interested in this conversation right now" or "OK, I hear you. Thanks for letting me know." I think there is a sticky with validation/exit lines that you might check out.

On my last thread, there is a lot of really good advice from AlisonUK and others about boundaries. How do you feel when he talks to you and you know he's lying or gaslighting you? Remove yourself from the situation. Protect your boundaries. You don't need to listen to something that is damaging to you. Alison had an incredibly helpful take on how she sets boundaries with friends/acquaintances, and how it works in her M with her H, that really helped me to better understand boundaries vs threats and how to enforce authentic boundaries. Boundaries aren't something you say. They are something you live.

And on gaslighting-- that only works if you listen and care what he says. Don't give him that power.

On the IC... do you work? if so, is there an employee assistance program through your job? Many employers have this and I think you normally get up to four free sessions with someone who could help you. It also works for family in case your H's job offers this. I'm wondering if this might be an easier step for you than setting up with an IC? Something that isn't permanent, is specifically set up to help you through difficult times, has a degree of anonymity that you wouldn't get with a friend or a long-term IC, and may have some simple suggestions for you or additional resources you can access?

you got this Blue!

[SteveLW]

What do you do when they threaten to leave?
If you can't quite get to "let me help you pack" (that is expert-level DB) practice "OK" and leaving it at that. Then walk away.

May, you might think that. But if you saw the reaction when you actually say that, and mean it, your DBing confidence would soar! After they fall to the floor in shock, they will come to and never threaten to leave ever again.

It is called "calling their bluff".

[may22]

Not to hijack your thread, Blue, but Steve-- I did look up apartments for my H and told him about them. No falling to the floor in shock for him. Just a dismissal that it was probably a POS because of the price. And I also told him that even though it costs money for him to MO (rather than cake eat in the basement or the office) we could afford it and it was dumb to make a decision about something like this on $$. He agreed and I think he's looked at apartments online since then. So, I don't think that is in play in my sitch.

And, literally every time he's said he thinks he should MO in this current go-round I have said is this it? Is this your decision? Because OK, then, go. Do it. And he just backs down and says no, I don't know what I want. (I'm not saying it out of DB, maybe. I'm saying it out of FU anger and ready to get my life moving w/o him. Maybe I need to be calmer and use the actual phrase.)

[unchien]

May, you might think that. But if you saw the reaction when you actually say that, and mean it, your DBing confidence would soar! After they fall to the floor in shock, they will come to and never threaten to leave ever again.

It is called "calling their bluff".

I wish I would have done more of this at the time.

[LH19]

The funny thing is it is your 100% best chance at reconciliation.

[SteveLW]

Not to hijack your thread, Blue, but Steve-- I did look up apartments for my H and told him about them. No falling to the floor in shock for him. Just a dismissal that it was probably a POS because of the price. And I also told him that even though it costs money for him to MO (rather than cake eat in the basement or the office) we could afford it and it was dumb to make a decision about something like this on $$. He agreed and I think he's looked at apartments online since then. So, I don't think that is in play in my sitch.

And, literally every time he's said he thinks he should MO in this current go-round I have said is this it? Is this your decision? Because OK, then, go. Do it. And he just backs down and says no, I don't know what I want. (I'm not saying it out of DB, maybe. I'm saying it out of FU anger and ready to get my life moving w/o him. Maybe I need to be calmer and use the actual phrase.)

I think you just proved my point! 😁

[may22]

I think you just proved my point! 😁

In the moment, no, he doesn't actually walk. But it isn't stopping him from wanting to or thinking about it either. I guess it just means he isn't prepared to do it quite yet. Gift of time and all that. Though a big part of me wishes he would just go if he can't cut out the rest of this $hit.

Blue, how are you doing today? Have you been able to get out into your yard and relax in the sunshine? Get a little mental break from what is happening? Remember, none of what is happening is your fault. You don't deserve any of this. I think this is a good time to try to support yourself and do whatever little things you need to do in order to soothe yourself. If you need a little extra push, what helps me is to think about my kids and being sure my gas tank is full enough to be the best mom I can be.

Also, just to check in on the not-as-positive side... has anything else happened that is scary to you at all? Were you able to get the firearms out of the house?

Thinking of you! xx

[SteveLW]

I think you just proved my point! 😁

In the moment, no, he doesn't actually walk. But it isn't stopping him from wanting to or thinking about it either. I guess it just means he isn't prepared to do it quite yet. Gift of time and all that. Though a big part of me wishes he would just go if he can't cut out the rest of this $hit.

The point is, they threaten because they know you fear it. Once you show them you're not afraid of their leaving, the threats stop. They may still eventually leave, but they will quit using the threat as a tool to manipulate.

"I'm going to leave!"

"Ok, want me to help you pack?"

Yeah, that floors them.

[BluWave]

I think I might be the slowest reader here! I have finished the first thread and am half way through this one ... almost .... there .....

[BlueSea]

Blue, how are you doing today? Have you been able to get out into your yard and relax in the sunshine? Get a little mental break from what is happening?

Thanks May, I don't feel like I am in a good place. There is a lot of tension in the house. Thank you for asking, really.
H seems just mad and is pretty gruff with me.
I have tried to continue to DB and reading the DR book again.
Just feeling sad and lifeless. How does one get over the constant bad looks you get from your spouse?

There is nothing I can say that is right. Its hard to look or appear like your GAL'ing...when your just not.
Its hard to act 'as if' when you know its bad - MWDs example of coming back from a trip and acting 'as if' with your spouse, ie, throwing her arms around him happy to see him ---- how is that even applicable here? I tell you that would not go over well at all over here.

Cheer leading section: not much to be show thankfulness - and I am not supposed to be talking to him anyway right? Very confusing all of it. I know I am not processing much anyway - which is frustrating. I am back to the basics of getting thru the hour, then thru the day.

Typically, I might have a few things to say during the day to be pleasant. Its always scoffed at. I do know that there is a fine line between too much talking and not talking...somewhere is a good middle ground. But that seems to be a shifting target because he is Jekyll and Hyde to me - though he professes to be cool & constant.

Not cooking anymore, just tired and not motivated - kids are loving the take-out at least.

Thank you BluWave - believe it or not, I was reading alot of your posts - so whatever you want to share with me, I would really appreciate it.

[may22]

Thanks for updating us, BlueSea. I know just how difficult this is. Here are some thoughts in no random order:

How much do you really need to be around him? Can you avoid him in the house? Get out and just be on your own, even if just for a walk? It is really hard to do any of this with your H in your face, either being a jerk or super nice. In terms of talking to him, if you say something nice and he scoffs at it... MWD would say take that as an experiment and it didn't give you the result you wanted. So next time, try a day of NOT talking to him and see what happens. Maybe try several. If he feels so awful inside that he is rude to you even for saying something pleasant, why give him that opportunity? It just reinforces his mindset and makes you feel badly. Avoid putting yourself in that situation.

On DB... You might want to focus on the Last Resort Technique in the book. I think you are probably past the cheerleading and as if sections. (I am.)

FlySolo posted something on my thread that I am grabbing onto like a lifeline-- do something small for yourself today. Just something small and for you. Can I pass that onto you as well?

Also, just checking in again on the firearms and your safety. Sorry, I'm not going to let this one go!! Has anything else happened that might scare you or you would feel weird about saying to someone IRL? That could be a good cue for you to know that something isn't right, if you wouldn't feel OK sharing it with someone besides those of us here. And/or, we're here to help you parse through it all. And I really really really want to be sure that those firearms are out of the house or at least get all the ammunition somewhere safe. Even if you don't think it is a big deal there are scary statistics and your H is not himself right now. Just want you to know that I care and am thinking of you.


(((BLUE)))

[BlueSea]

Thank you May for checking in on me, I do appreciate it.

How much do you really need to be around him? Can you avoid him in the house? Get out and just be on your own, even if just for a walk? It is really hard to do any of this with your H in your face, either being a jerk or super nice. In terms of talking to him, if you say something nice and he scoffs at it... MWD would say take that as an experiment and it didn't give you the result you wanted. So next time, try a day of NOT talking to him and see what happens. Maybe try several. If he feels so awful inside that he is rude to you even for saying something pleasant, why give him that opportunity? It just reinforces his mindset and makes you feel badly. Avoid putting yourself in that situation.

I do journal the days, to try and understand what works and doesnt, but he is so erratic. Last night his favorite bourbon was not in the cupboard. I told him I saw it in the recycle bin (empty). He began to get very upset, and accuse us of drinking it. I had shown the empty bottle to my 13ds, it was such a unique bottle (like a hookah), I thought he might want it. So he (13ds) chimed in that he also saw it in the recycle (empty). But that was not enough for H, he wanted our 16dd to come up - he was convinced she drank it all. really?! H was getting very worked up, very quickly, you had asked about scary times and this is most definitely one. He went out to the shop to check - I thought I might just try and lock him out. - but we have keypads, so he would just key in anyway and be even more mad, so I didn't. He did find it out there. But, he was really shook that happened - and turned to me - and told me that he could not remember anything and what was wrong with him. I just told him, 'your having a MLC'. He is drinking alot, pretty high end stuff. $100 or more per bottle, and just running thru them. I have seen them in the shop, all bagged. It is what it is. But the point is, he is erratic - and I am trying to be a constant for him and the kids.

We had a talk the other day that I am scared to come into the kitchen in the morning to get coffee. There is tension and hostility. He is like a guard dog in my own house that doesn't think I should be in the house. He is 'nice' about 5% of the time. But you are right May, I will do my best to avoid him if he is in a bad mood...which means I will just be avoiding him entirely 24/7.

On DB... You might want to focus on the Last Resort Technique in the book. I think you are probably past the cheerleading and as if sections. (I am.)

I will read that...

Also, just checking in again on the firearms and your safety. Sorry, I'm not going to let this one go!! Has anything else happened that might scare you or you would feel weird about saying to someone IRL? That could be a good cue for you to know that something isn't right, if you wouldn't feel OK sharing it with someone besides those of us here. And/or, we're here to help you parse through it all. And I really really really want to be sure that those firearms are out of the house or at least get all the ammunition somewhere safe. Even if you don't think it is a big deal there are scary statistics and your H is not himself right now. Just want you to know that I care and am thinking of you.

I found the 9mm and hid it. I found the shotgun ammo and hid it. Though its somewhere and loaded. That would be an awful way to go. I know this will sound terrible, I have always been honest, if he does anything - I would be okay with it. I am just so very very tired of all of this. Don't take me literally, I am just down right now.

Updates
I might have mentioned I found a check he cut to himself from our investments/savings about $7k. I finally started to really dig into the financials - and he opened that door chiding me last Saturday that he knew I would take that check wrong and just raking me over the coals about how he has done that a lot and would always deposit it back into another account and I was being harsh and blaming him for nothing. So I told him I would check it out, so yesterday, after getting past the 2 step authentication and all his guards.. find out that he has been cutting alot of checks ... but not putting ANY of it back into our accounts.
I confronted him about it. Turns out, he had been going to the casinos during the day (he works from home) during the pre-covid days and he has spent thousands, about $60k that I can track (and he only admits to what I can find). The only thing that stopped him was the closure of these places for quarantine.
And his paychecks are not right. I have to figure this out - he gets paid more than I do, but what is deposited is substantially less. I asked him, but the will not admit anything, only until I dig in will he admit.

Its all so mind numbing - the betrayals that have been going on for so long. I feel like my mind and body have just seized up. And I just want to crawl into bed. Of course, through all of it, he tells me how awesome and strong and solid I am, that I have been taking the brunt of it - but - he doesn't love me, that he has changed and needs something different. I do believe she is out of the picture, he was upset that she probably had slept with someone else and that's where the std came from. So the fact he would leave me for no one or nothing... does hurt even more. But its all confusing and so many things are happening at once, I feel overloaded with emotion.

[wooba]

Bluesea, please consult a L and protect yourself (and your kids) financially. Although what’s more concerning to me is that you felt the need to hide the gun and ammo. I’m sorry if I missed this, has your H done anything to threaten you or your children physically?

Do you have a separate account which H has no access of? Please start keeping a record of all his spendings and withdrawals, probably also a log of his questionable behavior. It might be useful if one day you do decide to D, it also it is helpful for you to look back and see all the sh*t he’s done in one place.

I’m sorry that so much betrayal is weighing over you right now. I think at this stage where you feel helpless, you need to just fake it until you make it. Find a healthy way to let out your anger and frustration (gym? running? Sign up for a boxing class?), lean in to your people (even if you have to pretend to be happy to socialize with others), and just simply find things to do to occupy your time. Take your focus off of your H. I sense that there is a lot of growing that needs to be done on your part as well. Build yourself up. Know that the way H is treating you is NOT okay and you deserve nothing less than to be shown respect and kindness to say the least. You have to take care of YOU, because your kids depend on it. You have to be the strong, stable parent.

Start taking baby steps to move forward, please believe in yourself that you can do it. ((Hugs)))

[may22]

Hi BlueSea,

I just want to say that I care about you and I'm worried about you. I wonder if you and your kids could go stay somewhere else for a week or two, like with a relative or a friend? I think this will give you the space you need to start to relax and figure out what is going on without having him in your face all the time, and with the underlying current of fear that his super erratic and mean behavior is generating. I think you need this in order to be the strong and stable parent like Wooba says.

It will also give him some space which he probably needs as well. If you want to think about it from a DB perspective, he can't miss you while you're there, and if seeing you every day is firing his anger neurons for whatever reason, removing your presence can only be a positive thing for your R.

(((BLUE))) Please keep updating us. Thinking of you.

[BluWave]

Oh dear. This was a lot. I read through both threads and I have so many thoughts and questions. I apologize if this post is all over the place. Mostly, I am glad to see you have so much support here and some great posters. Their advice is gold, even if it can feel harsh at times. Every person that comes here is only posting because they have been in a similar sitch and wants to help, even if our delivery is different. So I am thinking about what I can add and I am not sure what else I can say, but I will certainly try. I also apologize in advanced if I am direct or offensive. I have been known to swing some rusty, nail-studded, 2by4s!

First random question. I see in thread one, you changed your handle to Bluesea, which does resemble Bluwave, so I am of course curious as to why? :-))) hmmmmm .... Are we sisters from another mister? lol.

But seriously, that was a hard read. Maybe I say/think that about most of the sitches here, but ouch. Man oh man, the further out I get from my own BD, the more I am able to read these stories objectively. It is almost surreal what we go through. Of course I see some parallels in my own sitch, but I also see some differences. My H also had an A, became an alien, and blew up our lives, but the thing is, he wasn't an A-hole. My H was mostly guilty, self-pitied and a giant wuss, and he would hide from me. Can I call your H an A-hole? Because it certainly reads that way. He is a big aggressive bully! Man I wish I could kick this guy in the nutz. I know that doesn't help, but his behavior is so outrageous it is almost hard to wrap my head around.

I am so glad to read the advice from LH, Steve, May and really all of them. I agree with everything they are saying. I also know from experience how hard it is to apply when you are feeling so desperate, anxious, fearful and depressed. It is sooooo much easier said than done. Even Sandi's 37 rules. I remember reading those rules every single day. I also remember feeling like I kept failing at them and it felt impossible. So if you are feeling that way too, I want you to know that is okay. You just pick yourself up, dust yourself off and you start over. Each morning you wake up and you just start over. All you can do is the best you can do. .... Have you read Alison's thread? She has come such a long, long way in this process. She is now turning this corner and it is AMAZING. She is feeling strong, confident and detached. She is moving forward with her head held high with or without her H. She went through some really hard times too. But, she kept on picking herself up and she is getting there. So I want you to really take that in .... We all need to find our own way and all of our outcomes will be different, but the same advice applies to us all ... most important for you to read ---

IT WILL NOT BE THIS WAY FOREVER. THINGS WILL GET BETTER IN TIME. I know right now you are spinning and terrified and in a state of shock, but I want you to understand that in time things will get better.

Speaking of Alison and her detachment, I recall you saying that part of the reason that I have struggled with piecing was due to the fact that I may have detached too much. I am not sure what I said, but that is not true. I think the word detachment (and most words we use here) can be confusing. Words and just words and we define them differently. I started to get to a place where I detached and did not allow him to have so much power over me and I also started to imagine a life without him. Naturally he could feel me slipping away. However when we started to reconcile our M, it was not my detachment that made it so hard, it was simply the process of trying to shovel through all this chit, learn to forgive him & trust him, to work on the M while we both had to work on our own stuff, and to fight off those constant triggers, and understand WHY this all happened in the first place, and try and continue to raise our kids and home on a daily, keep up a "normal" routine, fight off so much hurt/anger/resentment, and on and on, and it was just HARD. It takes two committed people to do that hard work. I think it is hard for anyone that makes it that far and even then it doesn't always work. Often we cling so tightly to the idea of getting our partner back, that we fail to see who they have actually become in this process. I am sorry but I do not see your H as a desirable partner. Not right now anyways! He is sooooo far from anyone that can even begin to work on all this.

One of the major differences between your (and May's) sitch is that he is still there. So not only it it hard to follow the rules, GAL, detach, etc, but it is doubly hard to do that with him right there. When I discovered my H's A, I took a very hard line approach. After he moped and waffled around a bit I had to tell him firmly that if he was not going to 100% commit to our M and family then he needed to GTFO. And he did. I was shocked and devastated of course, but 6 years later, I can see now that it was the only way. He had to experience life without the cushion of his W, family and home. He also had to go out in the real world with this affair and let it fail on it's own. And fail it did! It usually does. You see, once you take away the mystery, fantasy and sheer drama of an active A -- and you stick these two dummies together in the real world -- they get to see each other for who they really are. My H realized pretty quickly he didn't even like her. He couldn't run from me and blame me because I wasn't there anymore. She was just an escape because he was too weak to deal with his real problems. He also missed his life. We had a nice life most days, even with our M issues.

So you and May have a different challenge of DBing with your H right there in your home. I honestly cannot even imagine how either of you do it. I think in both of your sitches it might benefit you to just let them go. In May's case, I think he needs to go out there and let his A fail. In your case, I do also worry about your safety -- emotionally and physically. He is really a mess, all over the map and he is not respecting you and caring for your well being. It is easy for us to put a label on that and call it abuse or whatever, but only you know what you have in front of you. In any relationship, there will be issues, but you should never feel afraid to be yourself. You always have the right to have your space, to say "no," and to not feel that you will be punished for your own imperfections. It is not healthy to live with that constant stress :-((( I was in a very bad relationship in my younger years, during/after HS, and I recall how uneasy I always felt. It took me time to get out of there, but looking back on that I can now see how unhealthy and toxic it was. I made a million excuses for him because it was too painful to see what it really was. But it was him. And that was his to own. It wasn't my fault and my H's A was not my fault either, even tho we did have a lot of issues and I was a cr-p wife. We all have to make that healthy detachment, together or apart. Codependency easily becomes toxic in any long term R if we don't work on it and keep healthy detachment.

This might be the hardest and most traumatizing experience of your life. I have been through some crazy things (most I have not shared here) but I still believe that my H's A and him leaving me for those 10 months was the hardest thing I have ever been through. I had constant anxiety, I couldnt eat, sleep or even think. There were so many days (most days) I did not think I would ever be okay. I thought about dying, not waking up. ODing, and a life of instability and misery. The darkest days of my life. I felt like I was broken and might never be okay. But there was this deep seeded, and almost invisible, little voice or light, that knew I would eventually be okay if I just kept trying and trying and gave it more time. I don't know if it was because I had to make it through for my kids or because I cognitively understood humans are resilient, but whatever it was it was in there. I know you have that too. If you cannot find it, then I am asking you to just trust me on this.

IT WILL NOT BE THIS WAY FOREVER. THINGS WILL GET BETTER IN TIME. I know right now you are spinning and terrified and in a state of shock, but I want you to understand that in time things will get better.

If there is any advice I want to give you right now, it is just to wake up each day and just get through it. Think of your H like a jar of pickles and shove him to the back of the fridge -- he can sit back there for now. You wake up, you shower, you tend to those kids, you eat, sleep, you read, you walk, and you allow yourself some small moments of joy or laughter. You are going to mess up a ton and break the rules. F it! We all do. A man that is healthy and strong will love you for those F ups. He is not that man right now, so just leave him in the back of the fridge. This is enough for now. Can you do that? Can you just trust that each day and week and month this will get a little bit easier if you believe?

Blu

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