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Bluesea, what I would remember is that this email is WORDS.

Believe nothing he says (or types), and half of what he does.

When my W started to move towards R and back towards the MR she said something similar.

"When I think about staying vs. going, it used to be (a few weeks before) that staying depressed me and going excited me. Now as time goes on I'm starting to feel excited by staying, and less so about going."

Now, remember, my W was not in an active affair. Her EA was over by this point (I saw her going through the grief period of the loss of that R). I think someone actively cheating saying something like this has to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

So if his feelings about potentially staying not being so dire to him any longer are genuine, then I believe it is a step in the right direction. However, I do wonder if it is a manipulation attempt. As in he has no where to go so is trying to buy more time as he detects you getting more fed up and finding the current situation untenable. What I would say is that for your decision, about whether you can continue on this way or not, ignore his words including this email. IN fact, that is what detachment is: moving on with what you want regardless of the WAS' words and actions.

Personally, I would ask him to leave. It sounds like an unhealthy situation with him coming and going to his other life whenever he feels like it, and the effect that is having on the rest of the household. I think of my father's horror stories about his alcoholic dad (I never knew my grandfather) coming and going all hours of the night and the effect it had on him and his siblings. I would not put up with unhealthy behaviors that are affecting the kids.


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Originally Posted by BlueSea
[i]I was trying to imply that there was a time no so long ago when I couldn't imaging staying and that I felt like there was literally no chance we would work out and there was no reason to stay other than the kids.

That's not the case now.

While I still am struggling to see any future (staying or going) that is not unhappy right now, at least this one is not as dead as I once thought it was.

Honestly I can't tell you exactly what has changed. Maybe I am still holding a grudge and slowly letting that go. Maybe you are also proving that you are committed to being different and I'm seeing that perseverance. Whatever it is, at least I feel like I have taken a half step back from the edge of the abyss. I'm not trying to be dramatic. That's what it has felt like for a while.

As for the other part, I do understand what you are saying. I'm not sure how to be more respectful or discrete. I'm inherently being disrespectful so there is no getting around that.

As for descrete, I'm trying, but it's not really possible. I'm carving out a few hours in the middle of the night so I can't really be any more discrete. While the rest of you have bedrooms, I sleep on one of two couchs so it's pretty easy for everyone in the house to see if I'm there or not. I continue to try and be discrete even though you clearly let me know you know by checking the garage camera in the middle of the night and leaving on all the lights.

I know you didn't sign up for this. If the situation becomes unbearable for either of us, let's have an adult conversation about me moving out. That would be a reasonable next step while I try to figure out what my future looks like and honestly that is a more respectful option.

This email is pure manipulation and he is such a (another name for a cat) he can't say this BS to your face.

Originally Posted by BlueSea
Do I consider this progress in the right direction?

Absolutely not! This is him just showing more disrespect.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
I feel very sad today as I am waffling on this huge decision of what to do next.

It's ok to feel sad. Deep down you know what you have to do.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
Is what I am doing the right thing - being validated by his email?

You are making changes for yourself.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
Even if it was, I definitely can not keep this up.

No. IHS with a cheater that doesn't even hide it is not good for your emaotional well being.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
If he leaves - either by my request or his choice - I think that will be the end for ME in pursuing this marriage any longer.

And that's ok. You wil always know you did everything to save the marriage.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
How I hate all of this.

I hate this for you and your children. You deserve better!

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@Spiral - Thank you, would you be surprised to know I was a 1950's type wife and have no idea what my finances are? I bet not. I know that. I am waking up. I just always trusted him to take care of me.

@Steve & LH - I tee'd up the conversation, it went a different direction and long but he shared ALOT. What I now know is that this OW, is not a relationship that he would consider pursuing long term. They meet from 12:30am to 4:30 some nights - watch TV, hang-out and yes, have sex. He said he was lonely. For me, the not knowing the extent of this relationship had been very tough for me. If he told me this was a real relationship, the if-he- left- me- he- would- go- to- her kind ... I would have ended it right there. So I withheld saying anything... to listen. For him, its not this woman that wrecked the marriage - his choice he is grappling with is "me or ______ (nothing)".

This was a huge blow to me. He is a WAS, not a wayward husband with an A. To me this is even worse! He is the turned off - not coming back - can't stand you - I am out of here type. He is grappling with committing to this marriage and potentially dooming himself to years of the same unhappiness from before - OR - going into the unknown and rolling the die for happiness.

We talked for a good long time. I told him how unfair it felt that he got to be with someone when he was the one who is the "bad guy" who had the affair and is hurting us all with this behavior. He agreed. I let him know how lonely I was, and how ironic that there were 2 lonely people in the house. I listened as he told me how he felt that there was a possibility with me that he hadn't felt before - but was afraid to give me any false hopes or expectation. I told him I loved him, that we all loved him and he was good person, just going thru a very hard time. And maybe he could watch TV with me sometime, and how much I would really appreciate that. He said he understood that. And then started to talk about an offer I had propositioned him with just a few days ago to be intimate. He turned me down...so I came back the following night..and he turned me down again. ugh. So when he started to speak about it - I cut him off laughing "please not a third rejection!" and he laughed and said he might surprise me sometime soon.

There was more said - but by the end - we were holding hands. He looked very sad. I let him know that I deeply cared for him and he was going thru a hard time but this was created by him, for him. I let him know how much I have learned about myself, and how much of a change I needed to be a better person. That I used to pray to God on the drive in to work every morning to 'make me a better wife, a better mother and a better person'. And He delivered! This was/is the hardest time of my adult life - but I have made some huge changes - and I never would have had that happen otherwise.

I was dug in like a tick before and could not extract myself from the unhappy place I was in. I am sincerely a more lighter, kinder person, a person I used to be. I am back down to my fighting weight, and feel better about myself. Dealing with my teens is no longer battles, but easier, I am more kind/gentle. He says he sees the new change, and feels it too, and believes its a permanent change.

I told him that he will get thru this a better person! He has to slog thru it - and maybe not having an OW as a distraction would be best - but he will get to the other side stronger and better.

It was a really good night for me - he appreciated our talk - he asked for a d.e.a.r session on a minor item for later, I offered to just do it now, it was so minor and after we ended the talk there.

I am going to just enjoy the progress we made - I think it was a really great night for us. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but I will be able to sleep tonight. I am not going to get too excited - things could change in a second - but I hope and pray that these gears catch.


M:50 H:49
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M:23 T:25
BD: Feb 25th 2020
EA/PA: Dec 2019 - June 11, 2020
Behind every broken woman is a broken man...
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Oh Bue that was tough to read. i'll break it down later. Unfortunately your talk only works in the movies. You see progress and I see a MAJOR set back.

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I’m going to have to keep this short right now, but I agree with LH. Boy, is he manipulative.

Did the end of that conversation also come woth an end to him and OW and his secret life he leads from 11-5am?

Because unless that has ended, he has two women. One for the day, and one for the night .

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LH and Ginger have already expressed feelings similar to mine on this. However, 2x4 time: Did you really offer to have sex with your cheating husband?!?

One of the #1 rules of DB is to never initiate sex. But even more importantly is the rule that you never allow them to initiate either if they are actively engaged in an affair! Bluesea, this is about your health. Please consider that before taking a step like this again.


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Blue I am going to start of by saying that I have nothing but compassion for what you are going through and I think about your situation when I can't sleep at night but I have to be honest with you below.

Originally Posted by BlueSea
@Steve & LH - I tee'd up the conversation, it went a different direction and long but he shared ALOT. What I now know is that this OW, is not a relationship that he would consider pursuing long term. They meet from 12:30am to 4:30 some nights - watch TV, hang-out and yes, have sex.

So a couple things here. You are listening to his words. His actions state otherwise. He is risking his marriage for this woman so either he really like this woman or he really doesn't value his marriage. Also, never EVER discuss the OW with him. That should be a boundary.

Originally Posted by BlueSea
He said he was lonely. For me, the not knowing the extent of this relationship had been very tough for me. If he told me this was a real relationship, the if-he- left- me- he- would- go- to- her kind ... I would have ended it right there.

Originally Posted by BlueSea
So I withheld saying anything... to listen. For him, its not this woman that wrecked the marriage - his choice he is grappling with is "me or ______ (nothing)"
.
No affairs are acts of anger -- he has built up a ton of resentment toward you, and since he's avoidant, he hasn't given voice to any of it or worked any of it through. I'm not saying you've done anything wrong, or that you deserve his resentment, it could be completely irrational, but the point is that it exists.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
This was a huge blow to me. He is a WAS, not a wayward husband with an A. To me this is even worse!

Its WW BS and semantics at this point anyway.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
but was afraid to give me any false hopes or expectation.

This is probably the only time he is being honest with you.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
I told him I loved him, that we all loved him and he was good person, just going thru a very hard time.

This is a big time no no! This just reminds him more that he doesn't feel the same right now. You cannot placate him, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
And maybe he could watch TV with me sometime, and how much I would really appreciate that.
Blue this is tough to read. You are begging for scraps. You are so much better then that!
Originally Posted by BlueSea
And then started to talk about an offer I had propositioned him with just a few days ago to be intimate. He turned me down...so I came back the following night..and he turned me down again. ugh.

This was tough to read too. You are offering sex to a man who is openly cheating on you and may have contracted diseases. His actions speak volumes in turning you down.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
So when he started to speak about it - I cut him off laughing "please not a third rejection!" and he laughed and said he might surprise me sometime soon.

Really tough to read.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
He looked very sad.

Mindreading
Originally Posted by BlueSea
I let him know that I deeply cared for him and he was going thru a hard time but this was created by him, for him.
Is this compassion or are you trying to make him feel guilty?
[quote=BlueSea] I let him know how much I have learned about myself, and how much of a change I needed to be a better person.

Actions not words.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
That I used to pray to God on the drive in to work every morning to 'make me a better wife, a better mother and a better person'. And He delivered!

So how are you a better person?
Originally Posted by BlueSea
This was/is the hardest time of my adult life - but I have made some huge changes - and I never would have had that happen otherwise.

What are these changes? Are they real or to get him back?
Originally Posted by BlueSea
I was dug in like a tick before and could not extract myself from the unhappy place I was in.

What changed that you are so happy now?
Originally Posted by BlueSea
I am sincerely a more lighter, kinder person, a person I used to be.

This is good but its only been like 5 months.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
I am back down to my fighting weight, and feel better about myself.

That's great and the best thing I have read today!
Originally Posted by BlueSea
He says he sees the new change, and feels it too, and believes its a permanent change.

So is the affair over? Is he going to IC? Are you going to MC. Is there a NC plan in place? Full transparency?
Originally Posted by BlueSea
He has to slog thru it - and maybe not having an OW as a distraction would be best - but he will get to the other side stronger and better.

You are trying to control him.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
It was a really good night for me

How? What's changed?
Originally Posted by BlueSea
He appreciated our talk - he asked for a d.e.a.r session on a minor item for later, I offered to just do it now, it was so minor and after we ended the talk there.

Now sure what that is and I don't think I want to know.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
I am going to just enjoy the progress we made - I think it was a really great night for us.

How?
Originally Posted by BlueSea
Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but I will be able to sleep tonight.

That's great! Good sleep is important.
Originally Posted by BlueSea
I am not going to get too excited - things could change in a second - but I hope and pray that these gears catch.

Blue I am really sorry but I think you are in for a rude awakening. You don't realize it right now but you are making matters worse. Please reread BLueWaves thread.

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LH nailed it.

One last thing. We see this a lot. You are falling into the reaction trap. "Oh we had a good talk! He likes me and we have a chance!" "Oh he was mean and refused to talk to me, I am doomed the world is ending!"

Bluesea, the fact is that this man is a lying-cheater. And apparently needs to continue sleeping on your couch (PLAN B) until his Plan A is full solidified. And everything he is saying is to keep that in place until no longer needed. As LH says.....actions are important...words are meaningless.

And please stop pointing out to him how much you've changed. That negates the changes in the WAS' mind. It tells them you are just changing to get them back. You change for you. For real. He'll either notice or he won't. You can't control that last part.


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Oh, I totally missed the part where you have been offering up sex to a man who is cheating on you and having sexual with his affair partner.

Oh, that just breaks my heart. How is that self worth? That’s self depreciating .

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LH and Steve - There is alot that you have posted that I will need to step thru to understand. Caveat: I just read my post, and its terse and defensive - but please know I am thinking about your responses. I was hesitant to post my 'propositions', but it it what it is, its been a long time, sorry for tmi but I don't want to kiss and cuddle. I am not offering sex to him, I am demanding sex from him. As I told him, if I am cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, handling the kids - doing the 'wife' things, then I have expectations in return. In that way, h and I were/are different, he had to be in a good space for it to happen, for me its a physical need. He not wanting to take my propositions - is something I am used to, from before - he mentioning that he could be getting interested, to me, shows a shift. We have talked about his use of protection. tmi. I didn't realize that the #1 rules of DB is to never initiate sex.

He sent me that email, after I made my offer, and told me that he never thought I could see past what he has done. And that act showed it could be possible. He keeps telling me how hard a return would be, that he might not be up for working thru all that. So me, asking to watch TV with him, is not asking for scraps to just be next to him - its strategic - its me throwing a breadcrumb, me saying lets do something 'normal' and super easy - you sit there, I sit next to you and we just watch TV. Let me show you that we can do that. Okay? We do that, and then, we try something else - I don't know, something a tad bit more higher - and see how we do at that. And keep going from there.

The DB dialogue rules: responding only and to the point - can come off to someone like my H, as cold. He is not an initiator. Its a big thing for him to tee up a conversation especially right now - but I see him trying to. He knows he is being an a@@hole - I could understand why he may feel ashamed to try to talk about light things when he know he is ripping my heart thru my nose - and is thinking 'why would she even want to speak to me or talk about vegetarian sausage when we both know I am being a HUGE jerk'. Its very stilted, and lasts a few mins. He is an introvert, and I can see that he takes it the wrong way when I end the conversation first (DBing).

I have been reading BluWave (she has a lot of threads - I am still in the 2017 dates) Her H did come back, only after she let the rope go. She detached. But did so, so thoroughly that she is struggling to accept him back, and on the brink of her own A. I think one can go to far in this detaching business. I agree not to be in that panic state, grabbing after your spouse, begging and pleading. There is a healthy line there - and I am looking for it. Doing my best. I can see how after many years that it gets frustrating to read about us LBS, and the 'pathetic-ness' - know that you both are lifelines to logic that we just cant see or process right now, but more and more is making sense, though my execution is horrid.

IMHO: All of the LBS that are women know exactly why we are here. We were controlling - we had a nice guy that was a doormat - it was a co-dependency that was bad for both. And he broke under our totalitarian rule. We dug in our heels, so used to how it worked - and then one day - this nice guy decided (really had been deciding for a long time) that he was done. My nice guy has truly transformed into a monster, he can not stand me, he see's me and is repulsed from all the memories. But I wasnt this way originally, I was sweet and loving, and waited on him, and showered him with compliments and gratitude - but somewhere along the way - and I have to say the kids were a huge part of it - they can be huge stressors with demands to be #1 - and I did that. My efforts were in this order Kid1, kid2, cat1, cat2, husband.

I know its been just a few months - but - this cr@ppy experience threw off some chains I was bound in that I could not do for myself. I don't know how to explain that. And it wasnt done for H. It just happened. I was shown what a jerk I was, and it has changed my view across the board. I hope that I am able to continue in this M - I am going to do my best to do whatever I can - and its touch and go right now for sure - but I want to be able to say I tried the best I could and right now I can at least say i am trying - clearly not in the most effective way - but will try to figure that out too.

I do appreciate both of your advice and especially the way it is offered/communicated. There are 2x4s that are well delivered and I really need to process them and be open - because right now I recognize that I am being defensive. I had a happy moment and am trying to defend that, maybe wrongly so. I see this as a safe place - and do look for your experience on a daily basis.

Others - Respectfully, don't feel the need to check in on this thread anymore - preachy judgmental-ism helps no one.


M:50 H:49
D:16 S:13
M:23 T:25
BD: Feb 25th 2020
EA/PA: Dec 2019 - June 11, 2020
Behind every broken woman is a broken man...
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